HG and Robotech Debates

[anime52k8]

When you watch Sentinels, realize every line of dialogue Chamberlain wrote accuses another character of something, usually stupidity and the whole video is children arguing. Gaze into Vince's bulging eyes and see forever. Watch Lisa slice open her finger on her chin.

Rock out to the awesome music of Shadow Chronicles. Experience the vertigo of the opening credits and puke. When Daryl Taylor dies, feel the impact of his death deep in your heart, moving you to tears. Realize Shadow Chronicles looks like a sequel to the Sentinels video in it's art design and animation. Watch as Vince does something to the neutron S missiles that contradict the entire reason they make black holes. Learn that suicide is the answer and emo is sexy.

ugh... I feel like I ate some bad shrooms just from reading that

Edited June 1, 2010 by anime52k8

[Einherjar]

Sorry, it doesn't fly.

One of the more refreshing aspects of this thread, as well as the site as a whole, is the tangible lack of trolling and flame-baiting. HG's practices aside, the comment was still a bit low, considering the standards that most people participating in this thread hold themselves to.

Just because HG's a festering pot of swill, and Carl Macek was a hack, doesn't mean we gotta sink that low. That's the kind of thing a certain podcaster does.

I agree, the past is the past, and it's not like Robotech is actually going anywhere. Everyone in that situation is banking on nostalgia and legalities to keep the franchise relevant, but no one significant is listening.

We don't need cheap shots, we stand by something with integrity.

[Seto Kaiba]

Did you see the Robotech the Movie poster at his funeral? I think his fans and business associates are way ahead of me in tastelessness which is what I was saying with that. Sorry if it was too mean.

From the look of things, Saraphys and I are probably the only ones who actually picked up on it. The way people on here react to anything Macek-related these days, you'd think you wandered into some kind of Bizarro-MacrossWorld, where all the people who usually treated the man like an inept con artist get up in arms about anything that could be perceived as being disrespectful to him... even if that person is making a perfectly valid point. It's bad enough we have to put up with the borderline-hagiography about the man from the idiot brigade on various Robotech sites, but now even illustrating the simple fact that Macek's death has become Harmony Gold's new raison d'ineptitude is suddenly being classified as hitting below the belt here?

At the rate we're going, it won't be too long before some overly-sensitive soul puts out their own tearful "LEAVE CARL MACEK ALONE!" video on YouTube.

Just because HG's a festering pot of swill, and Carl Macek was a hack, doesn't mean we gotta sink that low. That's the kind of thing a certain podcaster does.

Y'see... part of the problem is that this sudden "Don't speak ill of Carl Macek now that he's dead" trend is conducive to exactly what SHOULDN'T be allowed to happen... covering up the fact that the man was a talentless hack who spent most of his career telling lies to take credit for someone else's work and exaggerate the extent of his involvement and input. It's not "sinking low" to point out the simple fact that Harmony Gold will likely continue using Macek's death as an excuse for their lack of new material and as a means to promote their doomed projects. So he made the point with humor instead of with the usual air of exasperation and annoyance that normally marks this thread? So what?

When you watch Sentinels, realize every line of dialogue Chamberlain wrote accuses another character of something, usually stupidity and the whole video is children arguing.

And yet... it's still some of the best writing Robotech has ever had. Scary, isn't it?

Gaze into Vince's bulging eyes and see forever. Watch Lisa slice open her finger on her chin.

Aren't low-budget productions fantastic?

This just in... Robotech: Shadow Rising will be a direct-to-YouTube video feature done entirely with sock puppets. Sources close to Harmony Gold have confirmed that as a cost-saving move, the all characters will be voiced by a drunk intern from the mail room, and Janice Em2's singing voice will be provided by a tone-deaf budgerigar with an inner ear infection.

Rock out to the awesome music of Shadow Chronicles. Experience the vertigo of the opening credits and puke. When Daryl Taylor dies, feel the impact of his death deep in your heart, moving you to tears. Realize Shadow Chronicles looks like a sequel to the Sentinels video in it's art design and animation. Watch as Vince does something to the neutron S missiles that contradict the entire reason they make black holes. Learn that suicide is the answer and emo is sexy.

Well of course the death of Daryl Taylor is traumatic... after all, he's voiced by the most talented voice-actor on the entire cast, and he's the only one whose dialogue isn't taken from a badly-written Star Trek-Robotech crossover fic. Of course, it gets even funnier when you notice that they didn't bother with antialiasing when they added texture to the CG models, so every ship, fighter, and mecha in the film ends up surrounded by a minute haze of gray and white pixels, like an amateur-hour photoshop project.

[Keith]

From the look of things, Saraphys and I are probably the only ones who actually picked up on it. The way people on here react to anything Macek-related these days, you'd think you wandered into some kind of Bizarro-MacrossWorld, where all the people who usually treated the man like an inept con artist get up in arms about anything that could be perceived as being disrespectful to him... even if that person is making a perfectly valid point. It's bad enough we have to put up with the borderline-hagiography about the man from the idiot brigade on various Robotech sites, but now even illustrating the simple fact that Macek's death has become Harmony Gold's new raison d'ineptitude is suddenly being classified as hitting below the belt here?

At the rate we're going, it won't be too long before some overly-sensitive soul puts out their own tearful "LEAVE CARL MACEK ALONE!" video on YouTube.

I forget, how long has it been?

Y'see... part of the problem is that this sudden "Don't speak ill of Carl Macek now that he's dead" trend is conducive to exactly what SHOULDN'T be allowed to happen... covering up the fact that the man was a talentless hack who spent most of his career telling lies to take credit for someone else's work and exaggerate the extent of his involvement and input. It's not "sinking low" to point out the simple fact that Harmony Gold will likely continue using Macek's death as an excuse for their lack of new material and as a means to promote their doomed projects. So he made the point with humor instead of with the usual air of exasperation and annoyance that normally marks this thread? So what?

I could "maybe" see this being an issue if there were an even remote chance of his family reading posts here...ever, but come on.

And yet... it's still some of the best writing Robotech has ever had. Scary, isn't it?

Don't forget the Dukes of Hazzard-esque narrator, that's the true gem of The Sentinels.

Aren't low-budget productions fantastic?

This just in... Robotech: Shadow Rising will be a direct-to-YouTube video feature done entirely with sock puppets. Sources close to Harmony Gold have confirmed that as a cost-saving move, the all characters will be voiced by a drunk intern from the mail room, and Janice Em2's singing voice will be provided by a tone-deaf budgerigar with an inner ear infection.

I'm honestly surprised they didn't stitch together all the flash animation they recieved from their contest years ago.

Well of course the death of Daryl Taylor is traumatic... after all, he's voiced by the most talented voice-actor on the entire cast, and he's the only one whose dialogue isn't taken from a badly-written Star Trek-Robotech crossover fic. Of course, it gets even funnier when you notice that they didn't bother with antialiasing when they added texture to the CG models, so every ship, fighter, and mecha in the film ends up surrounded by a minute haze of gray and white pixels, like an amateur-hour photoshop project.

You forget Mark Hammil had dual roles, he was also one of the floating robot eye badguy things, so we were never truly without him during the film. As for the CG, what are you talking about, that was total "OVA" quality!

[JB0]

They're still announcing the LAM at ... Carl Macek's funeral (very weird).

...

At his... but... I...

Wow. Just wow.

Stay classy, HG.

[Seto Kaiba]

I forget, how long has it been?

It's been a month since Harmony Gold's tasteless attempt to use Macek's memorial service to promote the live action movie. All the fuss died down pretty fast, and Harmony Gold only managed to get a handful of pieces of wildly inaccurate borderline hagiography out the door, most of which contain less fact than a fortune cookie.

Don't forget the Dukes of Hazzard-esque narrator, that's the true gem of The Sentinels.

Oh come on... that was AWESOME. That and the fact that they seem to have stolen fairly half their new cast from Star Trek: the Next Generation and other sci-fi from the same period. ('s why I call the redesigned Janice "DData")

You forget Mark Hammil had dual roles, he was also one of the floating robot eye badguy things, so we were never truly without him during the film. As for the CG, what are you talking about, that was total "OVA" quality!

Oooooohhhh... so THAT'S why all the Haydonites talk like graduates of the Emperor Palpatine Memorial College of Divination. Always with the "foreseen"...

[Protoculture]

Blast from the past, the VF-13 Gamma pre-production art that Tommy Yune had been pimping since 2002 before it got the axe & replaced by Super Alpha fighter (Legioss with Super Pack.

Clearly shows why Yune resorted to create more 'original' mecha in RTSC / PTTSC by copying existing Macross / Mospeada / Southern Cross designs - YF-1R (based on animation error of VF-1A), Bioroid Interceptor (based on Invid Fighter Bioroid), Super Shadow Alpha (Legioss with FAST pack) & VR-057 Super Cyclone (based on unused MOSPEADA pre-production art).

The only original mecha designed by Yune is VML-9 Silverback .... the design that only available in comic, but not the animation ...

Is it me or Yune can't even designed an original, decent transformable mecha?

Edited June 1, 2010 by Protoculture

[Seto Kaiba]

Blast from the past, the VF-13 Gamma pre-production art that Tommy Yune had been pimping since 2002 before it got the axe & replaced by Super Alpha fighter (Legioss with Super Pack.

We tried SO hard to forget... and you had to go and remind us.

Seriously though, even the Gamma Fighter isn't an original design either. True to form, Tommy took an existing design from the original shows, modified it a bit, and tried to pass it off as something original. In the case of the VF-13 Gamma fighter, it's just a transforming version of the non-transformable Mars Colony AF-03 Combat fighter from the original Genesis Climber Mospeada. Like pretty much all of the other "new" stuff he's come up with during his tenure, it's something old that's been tarted up as though it was new and original... a process that's been Robotech's stock in trade since 1985.

The only original mecha designed by Yune is VML-9 Silverback .... the design that only available in comic, but not the animation ...

Is it me or Yune can't even designed an original, decent transformable mecha?

It's not just you... though I'm still not convinced the Silverback is original either. I can't shake the feeling that the "vehicle" mode looks a bit like a Mospeada-style clone of Halo's Warthog, and the "robot" mode puts me in the mind of Psalm of Planets: Eureka 7's LFOs. Hell, it could also be the horrible mutant offspring of that "Scorpion" jeep thing from Unreal Tournament 2003.

(On a pseudo-related note, I think I found a Mospeada reference in Five Star Stories of all the strange places...)

[Moly_Sigang]

Design-wise the Gamma fighter has similarity to the Lightning and Vampire with the wing nacelle.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[Funkenstein]

Guys, the Silverback is a copy of the Calibur from the anime Dorvack.Mass Production Calibur - Dorvack

[Ghost Train]

Blast from the past, the VF-13 Gamma pre-production art that Tommy Yune had been pimping since 2002 before it got the axe & replaced by Super Alpha fighter (Legioss with Super Pack.

That.... actually, does not look so bad. Reminds me of the unknown scout/fighter from Macross Galaxy.

[Keith]

That.... actually, does not look so bad. Reminds me of the unknown scout/fighter from Macross Galaxy.

Reminds me of a really fat VF-4

[Mr March]

However derivative it may be, at least this mechanical design was an attempt by Yune to create something original. In the annals of HG's plagiarific history, an "attempt" at original material is at least a notable baby step that for once could have lead in the right direction.

[terry the lone wolf]

Even if the Gamma Fighter wasn't all original it would've been something different than the same old re-using of the Legioss/Alpha.Super Alphas were a big let down when introduced in the Space Station Liberty scene. Legioss with fast packs, c'mon....

[Einherjar]

I think this shows the challenge of designing a transformable vehicle and why not everyone is good in applying it.

One obstacle the pre-production art shows is where all the fighter's parts will go through transformations. You can get away from not showing all the intricacies in comic book form because it would take too many panels and pages cost money. There's also avoiding it altogether with blatant exposition as Robotech: From the Stars justified when it showed the VF-4. They must have found problems in attempting to animate it because it was completely new and there was no reference material to base their 2-D or 3-D sequences to it.

Another obstacle I noticed from Shadow Chronicles was how to utilize all three transformation forms in a production. Remember, besides looking cool, the 3 forms of a Variable Fighter had some strategic use in combat. If I remember correctly, Shadow Chronicles only used Guardian mode once at the beginning of the movie and relied heavily on fighter and bioroid for the rest. That too might have been because it would be too expensive to show more dynamic battle sequences. Or maybe they just didn't care, because they showed all prerequisite forms to convince people that, yes, they're using Veritechs and they can transform... in 3-D. They wanted people to assume that that kind of stuff kept happening off screen during the battles while the film showed "cool" dog-fighting.

[taksraven]

If I remember correctly, Shadow Chronicles only used Guardian mode once at the beginning of the movie and relied heavily on fighter and bioroid for the rest.

Clash of the Bioroids.

Taksraven

[BeyondTheGrave]

When you watch Sentinels, realize every line of dialogue Chamberlain wrote accuses another character of something, usually stupidity and the whole video is children arguing. Gaze into Vince's bulging eyes and see forever. Watch Lisa slice open her finger on her chin.

Rock out to the awesome music of Shadow Chronicles. Experience the vertigo of the opening credits and puke. When Daryl Taylor dies, feel the impact of his death deep in your heart, moving you to tears. Realize Shadow Chronicles looks like a sequel to the Sentinels video in it's art design and animation. Watch as Vince does something to the neutron S missiles that contradict the entire reason they make black holes. Learn that suicide is the answer and emo is sexy.

Wilt Chamberlain wrote part of robotech?

That would explain a lot.

[Seto Kaiba]

Guys, the Silverback is a copy of the Calibur from the anime Dorvack.Mass Production Calibur - Dorvack

Huh... yeah, there's a definite similarity there.

Even if the Gamma Fighter wasn't all original it would've been something different than the same old re-using of the Legioss/Alpha.Super Alphas were a big let down when introduced in the Space Station Liberty scene. Legioss with fast packs, c'mon....

Now, if the design of the "Super Shadow fighter" tells us anything about the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles "creative" process, it tells us that their inability to produce anything of quality doesn't mean they don't know what the fans want. As anyone who's been anywhere near a Robotech fan in the last two decades could tell you, what the vast majority of Robotech fans want is a continuation of the Robotech story that recaptures the feel of the "Macross Saga" and resumes the story of the all-important Rick Hunter. Since they've known since at least 1986 that continuing the story using character and mecha designs from Macross is impossible, the Super Shadow fighter is the next best thing... an attempt to impose Macross design aesthetics on Mospeada mecha.

[Einherjar]

Clash of the Bioroids.

They used Gerwalk mode a lot in that movie (first battle, last battle, the rings of Saturn, on earth). In Shadow Chronicles, Marcus and Decoy used Guardian mode to hide in the wreckage of ships above Earth to avoid Invid ships and take scans. No fighting involved. Marcus even announced it to the audience.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Einherjar

[Wanzerfan]

Damn, man, Macek's death is news to me. He must've passed while I was taking a month-long forced vacation from this site.

The man was a visionary for his time. It's too bad part of his vision included a minor revamping and editing of three Tatsunoko series into one concept.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[Legioss]

I don't don't know why, but I'm going to try to talk about the real Robotech again.

Robotech could go either way, original or not original. When you consider Harmony Gold can't create, the main thing that makes Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles not like Robotech is the new concepts rooted in Sentinels instead of the original show. Robotech is about combining Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada. The combination, as people appreciated it, is supposed to make the illusion of a larger universe while letting what the Japanese created show through.

What we get in Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles is Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada done like bad Marvel Comics. We all know Marvel could easily make these shows. Thats not interesting and it's not what made Robotech interesting. The character and mecha designs do not showcase the work of the Japanese. The story is not derived from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada, instead being a plotpoint from Sentinels which itself introduces concepts, the Sentinels, disconnected from the three original shows that make up the concept of Robotech.

If you're going to make a land vehicle, why not use the ones from Southern Cross? If you're going to make a Conbat fighter, why not just use the Conbat? The work of Ammonite and Artmic doesn't need to be fixed to make Robotech more embarassed of it's origins.

Also, episode 85 is supposed to be an ending for both Scott and Rick. His fate was to be the same as Hikaru's, again just showing the story elements the Japanese created but combining them. What happened to them? I'd incorporate Southern Cross and guess it was something to do with the Masters or Zor, but you wouldn't show it onscreen or you'd destroy both Rick and Scott's ending.

[VF5SS]

The fight choreography in Shadow Chronicles is so dull and lifeless that the action gives almost no reason for any of the robots to exist, let alone transform. They don't do anything robot-y. You could replace them with generic space fighters and it wouldn't have changed anything.

[Legioss]

Wilt Chamberlain wrote part of robotech?

That would explain a lot.

Ardwight Chamberlain, a Robotech ADR writer, rewrote the script for the Sentinels video.

[taksraven]

Ardwight Chamberlain, a Robotech ADR writer, rewrote the script for the Sentinels video.

Loved Ardwight Chamberlain in Babylon 5.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

It's too bad part of his vision included a minor revamping and editing of three Tatsunoko series into one concept.

OK Gubaba, this sentence is clearly taking the piss......

Taksraven

[areaseven]

OK Gubaba, this sentence is clearly taking the piss......

Taksraven

I couldn't agree more.

Wanzerfan, Wanzerfan

Does whatever a wanker can

Shoots his mouth, really loud

Don't know what he's talking about

Look out - here comes the Wanzerfan

Is he smart? Listen bud

His whole cranium's full of mud

Every post, every thread

No respect for the dead

Douchebag - a.k.a. Wanzerfan

Everything he writes

Should be classified a crime

Whether day or night

He arrives to waste our time

Wanzerfan, Wanzerfan

Friendly neighborhood wanker man

Set his name to Ignore

Common sense is your reward

Screw him

All of his posts are f-cked-up

Someone tell him to shut up

That dork called Wanzerfan

Edited June 2, 2010 by areaseven

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't don't know why, but I'm going to try to talk about the real Robotech again.

Oooo... now there's a rarity in this thread. Not sure what "real" Robotech is, now that Harmony Gold's disowned 99% of it for being cheap attempts to cash in on the brand name.

Robotech could go either way, original or not original.

But they (think they) have such a good thing going for them with the complete lack of talent or originality in their "creative" process. They don't do any actual work, just slap together a badly written Robotech fanfic with existing characters, designs, and set pieces.

If you're going to make a land vehicle, why not use the ones from Southern Cross? If you're going to make a Conbat fighter, why not just use the Conbat? The work of Ammonite and Artmic doesn't need to be fixed to make Robotech more embarassed of it's origins.

Ooo, that's an easy one! Because even the most devoted Robotech fans usually find the experience of watching the Masters Saga either profoundly annoying or excruciatingly painful. Apart from a half-dozen very strange, very belligerent people, nobody cares for the content of the Masters Saga, and would very much like to sweep it under the rug and just pretend it never happened. As far as the AF-03 Combat goes, Robotech's only real gimmick is transforming robots (which is why they've taken such pains to make just about everything transform or at least imply that it does), so using a non-transformable fighter like the Combat would detract from the "experience".

The fight choreography in Shadow Chronicles is so dull and lifeless that the action gives almost no reason for any of the robots to exist, let alone transform. They don't do anything robot-y. You could replace them with generic space fighters and it wouldn't have changed anything.

Well, yes... but if they did that it'd be all the more obvious that RTSC was a blatant attempt to rip off the reimagined Battlestar Galactica. Truly, the only thing that changed over 25 years was whose work they were plagiarizing.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

OK Gubaba, this sentence is clearly taking the piss......

Taksraven

Enh, I'll let someone else handle it...

Let me just point out in passing that Wanzerfan says the guy who WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN CREATING Macross "has his head up his ass," but that the guy who EDITED Macross together with a couple of other shows was "a visonary."

That says it all, don't you think?

[anime52k8]

Enh, I'll let someone else handle it...

Let me just point out in passing that Wanzerfan says the guy who WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN CREATING Macross "has his head up his ass," but that the guy who EDITED Macross together with a couple of other shows was "a visonary."

That says it all, don't you think?

what...

[VF5SS]

Let me just point out in passing that Wanzerfan says the guy who WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN CREATING Macross "has his head up his ass," but that the guy who EDITED Macross together with a couple of other shows was "a visonary."

To be fair, a lot of legit Macross fans think Kawamori is a useless hippie who can't do anything without Ohnogi/Ishiguro/Itano/Mikimoto/etc.

He's the George Lucas of anime.

[areaseven]

Let me just point out in passing that Wanzerfan says the guy who WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN CREATING Macross "has his head up his ass," but that the guy who EDITED Macross together with a couple of other shows was "a visonary."

That says it all, don't you think?

Is that right? He's also the one who hates Macross Plus simply because it doesn't have giant, full-blooded Zentradi.

I always thought he was an over-glorified Troll, but damn...

Wanzerfan, Wanzerfan

Does whatever a wanker can

Shoots his mouth, really loud

Don't know what he's talking about

Look out - here comes the Wanzerfan

Is he smart? Listen bud

His whole cranium's full of mud

Every post, every thread

No respect for the dead

Douchebag - a.k.a. Wanzerfan

Everything he writes

Should be classified a crime

Whether day or night

He arrives to waste our time

Wanzerfan, Wanzerfan

Friendly neighborhood wanker man

Set his name to Ignore

Common sense is your reward

Screw him

All of his posts are f-cked-up

Someone tell him to shut up

That dork called Wanzerfan

Edited June 2, 2010 by areaseven

[Gubaba]

To be fair, a lot of legit Macross fans think Kawamori is a useless hippie who can't do anything without Ohnogi/Ishiguro/Itano/Mikimoto/etc.

He's the George Lucas of anime.

True (although those generally seem to be the people who think Kawamori directed Macross 7), but to rate Macek higher...? That's just weird.

[VF5SS]

True (although those generally seem to be the people who think Kawamori directed Macross 7), but to rate Macek higher...? That's just weird.

Because Macek was making some real HARDCORE SCI-FI with Xeno killin' rip-snorting dudes in power suits and jets like in those Tim Eldred comics.

Just ignore the moe girls in Mospeada and the doofy protagonists.

[Gubaba]

Because Macek was making some real HARDCORE SCI-FI with Xeno killin' rip-snorting dudes in power suits and jets like in those Tim Eldred comics.

Just ignore the moe girls in Mospeada and the doofy protagonists.

Ummm...yeah... How could I forget that...?

[BeyondTheGrave]

Ardwight Chamberlain, a Robotech ADR writer, rewrote the script for the Sentinels video.

Using Wilt Chamberlain could have explained why all of yune's female character are built like strippers.