HG and Robotech Debates

[Gubaba]

One of my favorite quotes on rt.com under my signature used to be "Say what you mean, mean what you say..." Apparently, they never got it. I see we're also going back to older debates that have been settled, so I'll wait till there's something a little more "new".

I'm not sure the DYRL thing as ever been settled...does ANYONE know what Tommy meant by that line...?

[Smegalot]

Just watching that, they seemed to be originally going on about the new series which did not happen. Then the licensing of Macross. which i think will plague HG wherever they go now. The cat is out of the bag and won't go back in

I just kept laughing when he kept on saying product, and coming soon. ANd some people cheered. ANd here we are 6 years later and nothing much has changed.

But i agree. this debate hasn't had anything new for a while......

my additional 2 cents worth

[Jasonc]

I think Tommy tactfully used the term product in the sentence, so that he could simply say to those not buying the B.S. "I meant as far as merchandise". And for those who prefer to live in lala land (AKA some RT mods and podsters) it gives them a false base to run around and quote all day. I think that if HG really had DYRL, they would've used it. Heck, even making a dub of it would've been more money in the bag, but they've done nothing with the production itself, only a couple toys based off of it. HG can say anything they want in regards to the rights, licensing, and whatnot. However, what is there can be much different.

[Seto Kaiba]

Again, "merchandising rights" is not what Tommy said at the time. He said, "We can release Macross the Movie as a product." Which is pretty weird phrasing, but also doesn't seem to mean "We can release products based on Macross the Movie."

Eh... given the "testimony" of an infinitely more reliable and straightforward Harmony Gold employee from around that same time, I don't think there's any room for doubt over the actual meaning behind Tommy's typically awkward and misleading choice of words. Tommy has always fallen back on awkwardly worded answers whenever he's put on the spot. He's a lousy public speaker and a worse liar, and that makes it pretty easy to find the truth buried in the waffling cr*p if you know not to trust him. I think Jason had it right when he said:

I think Tommy tactfully used the term product in the sentence, so that he could simply say to those not buying the B.S. "I meant as far as merchandise". And for those who prefer to live in lala land (AKA some RT mods and podsters) it gives them a false base to run around and quote all day.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Just watching that, they seemed to be originally going on about the new series which did not happen. Then the licensing of Macross. which i think will plague HG wherever they go now. The cat is out of the bag and won't go back in

I just kept laughing when he kept on saying product, and coming soon. ANd some people cheered. ANd here we are 6 years later and nothing much has changed.

But i agree. this debate hasn't had anything new for a while......

my additional 2 cents worth

I disagree, there is that new vaguely defined production set to come out next year or later and probably a documentary about the delicate process of editing 3 shows together and the subsequent fallout from it. Sure, it's not new and not really set in stone, but it's the most significant sign that this franchise is trying to come back from the brink, with all of the stress that Shadow Chronicles also had in anticipation.

[Keith]

Eh... given the "testimony" of an infinitely more reliable and straightforward Harmony Gold employee from around that same time, I don't think there's any room for doubt over the actual meaning behind Tommy's typically awkward and misleading choice of words. Tommy has always fallen back on awkwardly worded answers whenever he's put on the spot. He's a lousy public speaker and a worse liar, and that makes it pretty easy to find the truth buried in the waffling cr*p if you know not to trust him. I think Jason had it right when he said:

Exactly, he was (not even remotely) clearly talking about the super posables. If HG actually had the ability to release DYRL, they'd pimp it at every given opportunity "including" turning it into a robotech dub movie. The fanbase would crap their pants at the unbelievable animation quality in the new robotech feature, and we'd all be collectively sighing.

[Seto Kaiba]

I disagree, there is that new vaguely defined production set to come out next year or later

Y'know... I'm really glad you chose to qualify that statement with "or later", though it probably would have been more accurate to say there might be something new coming maybe. It would hardly be the first time that a new Robotech animated feature was announced and then died a humiliating death. In practice, I suppose it'd be the fourth... the fifth if you're in the mood to count the indefinitely-stalled Shadow Rising as another failure. To put it bluntly, there's no guarantee that this as-of-yet unnamed side story is even going to come out. That they put a "coming soon" button on their website and run the same useless hype over and over again doesn't mean much.

Even if they do somehow manage to see it through to completion, that just means they've succeeded in wasting a fair bit of time and money on a smokescreen to disguise their lack of forward motion in same story that they've been spending the past 25 years trying and failing to tell.

and probably a documentary about the delicate process of editing 3 shows together and the subsequent fallout from it. [...] it's the most significant sign that this franchise is trying to come back from the brink

Granted, a documentary "commemorating" the editing process that shat Robotech into being is about as close to inevitable as it gets for Robotech releases... but that's not a sign that they're trying to drag the whole Robotech franchise back from the brink, that's a clear indication that they have no idea how to move forward. It wouldn't be a stretch to call the Robotech franchise a washed-up old mess that spends its days reminiscing about the good old days when people actually took it seriously.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Keith]

Granted, a documentary "commemorating" the editing process that shat Robotech into being is about as close to inevitable as it gets for Robotech releases... but that's not a sign that they're trying to drag the whole Robotech franchise back from the brink, that's a clear indication that they have no idea how to move forward. It wouldn't be a stretch to call the Robotech franchise a washed-up old mess that spends its days reminiscing about the good old days when people actually took it seriously.

"Sh!t or get off the pot" best sums up the whole situation. If they're going to make something, do it. If they're not, sell the license to someone who gives a crap so we can finally get more Macross. Bandai Entertainmet, Funimation, etc, I'm sure would be interested in purchasing the license for a reasonable price. And both would have a much easier time dealing with Big West. Sure Tommy is butt hurt over the thorough panning that Shadow Chronicles got, and yet, if he can't handle it, he needs to either find someone who can, or reccomend HG do exactly what I just said they should.

What they're doing isn't fair to their fanbase, let alone us.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Keith

[chrisk]

"Sh!t or get off the pot" best sums up the whole situation. If they're going to make something, do it. If they're not, sell the license to someone who gives a crap so we can finally get more Macross. Bandai Entertainmet, Funimation, etc, I'm sure would be interested in purchasing the license for a reasonable price. And both would have a much easier time dealing with Big West. Sure Tommy is butt hurt over the thorough panning that Shadow Chronicles got, and yet, if he can't handle it, he needs to either find someone who can, or reccomend HG do exactly what I just said they should.

What they're doing isn't fair to their fanbase, let alone us.

The reason they're happy being complacent until now is because they're still swimming in that money they got from Warner Brothers. How much do you think they paid for all the rights? A million dollars? Two million? Ten??

[Seto Kaiba]

"Sh!t or get off the pot" best sums up the whole situation. If they're going to make something, do it. If they're not, sell the license to someone who gives a crap so we can finally get more Macross.

It'd certainly be a nice change of pace if the idiots who've been put in charge of the Robotech franchise had the wherewithal to either make a significant investment in Robotech and turn it into something worthwhile that can stand on its own merits, or give up on Robotech and sell their rights to the original shows to a more competent distributor. What's keeping the Robotech "creative team" at Harmony Gold from either staging a comeback for Robotech or having it go out in one last blaze of suck is that everything they do has to go through their senior management for approvals. They'll never do anything drastic because drastic things might imperil their safety net of fanatic fans and their ability to keep their main competition out of the market by sleazier means.

[taksraven]

It'd certainly be a nice change of pace if the idiots who've been put in charge of the Robotech franchise had the wherewithal to either make a significant investment in Robotech and turn it into something worthwhile that can stand on its own merits,

.....can't polish a turd??......

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

.....can't polish a turd??......

Huh... didn't they actually attempt that one on Mythbusters? IIRC, they actually succeeded.

In Harmony Gold's case, I think it's really more a matter of them just not having the creative talent necessary to make something halfway presentable out of the festering corpses of Southern Cross and MOSPEADA, and that to even attempt it means running a gauntlet of senior executives who know better than to let them try. Their own faults are compounded by the franchise's miserable reputation, which all but guarantees that no self-respecting network in North America will actually carry a Robotech title in any timeslot where there's a chance someone will actually see it.

[Keith]

Huh... didn't they actually attempt that one on Mythbusters? IIRC, they actually succeeded.

In Harmony Gold's case, I think it's really more a matter of them just not having the creative talent necessary to make something halfway presentable out of the festering corpses of Southern Cross and MOSPEADA, and that to even attempt it means running a gauntlet of senior executives who know better than to let them try. Their own faults are compounded by the franchise's miserable reputation, which all but guarantees that no self-respecting network in North America will actually carry a Robotech title in any timeslot where there's a chance someone will actually see it.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. You've seen the garbage that passes for kids programming. I don't htink it would be "that" hard for them to air something they made. The main difficulty for them remains in the "making it" arena.

[Jasonc]

I thought originally they were going to make an attempt to phase out the Mospeada designs and attempt a new "verytek". Commentary aside on the design of the Gamma fighter, it would've been a great attempt at a soft transition...i.e. getting rid of the past show stuff, and bringing in new stuff. I think George Sohn at Toynami would've been happy to see something different and maybe could've worked with it. Also, from what I remember hearing, Tommy didn't want to "desing". Instead, he wanted to direct and the Gamma fighter was nixed. Well, that shot came and went, and here we are, Robotech and Macross fans alike, bashing the hell out of Shadow Chronicles. If Frank Agrama had any smarts, he'd at most make Tommy a creaive art director, and not creative director overall. Wait, what am I saying. All of Robotech would still be big busty women in club outfits. His mecha art isn't too bad, and he is a pretty good artist. If he worked under an overall creative director who actually cared about this stuff, he maybe able to turn out some decent stuff.

[Zor Primus]

I thought originally they were going to make an attempt to phase out the Mospeada designs and attempt a new "verytek". Commentary aside on the design of the Gamma fighter, it would've been a great attempt at a soft transition...i.e. getting rid of the past show stuff, and bringing in new stuff. I think George Sohn at Toynami would've been happy to see something different and maybe could've worked with it. Also, from what I remember hearing, Tommy didn't want to "desing". Instead, he wanted to direct and the Gamma fighter was nixed. Well, that shot came and went, and here we are, Robotech and Macross fans alike, bashing the hell out of Shadow Chronicles. If Frank Agrama had any smarts, he'd at most make Tommy a creaive art director, and not creative director overall. Wait, what am I saying. All of Robotech would still be big busty women in club outfits. His mecha art isn't too bad, and he is a pretty good artist. If he worked under an overall creative director who actually cared about this stuff, he maybe able to turn out some decent stuff.

LOL...aaah so that was that fighter was! The sketch on RT.com shown when Shadow Chronicles was announced! Now was that a Gamma Fighter or Gema Fighter?

Edited November 11, 2010 by Zor Primus

[taksraven]

How about a new Super Dimensional fortress. THAT would be more interesting if anybody cared......

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

How about a new Super Dimensional fortress. THAT would be more interesting if anybody cared......

Uh... it's been a while since I last bothered reading/watching anything Robotech, but haven't they already done that at least twice with generally poor results? If I recall correctly, their first attempt was the SDF-3 in Robotech II: the Sentinels... a design so breathtakingly bad that even those strange mutants who thought that Robotech II: the Sentinels was a great idea have little use for it. Tommy Yune apparently felt the same about it, since one of the first things he did in the Prelude miniseries was blow the damn thing up so he could replace it with something that didn't look like a colossal crimson bowel movement:

Mind you, the end result of all this wasn't a hell of a lot better... just boxier and more in line with the utterly generic MOSPEADA ship designs:

and who could forget this godawful thing...

[Einherjar]

I'm not sure the DYRL thing as ever been settled...does ANYONE know what Tommy meant by that line...?

Judging how Robotech's 25th anniversary really turned out, it must mean "Come back next year to find out," every year, for anything involving Robotech and probably Macross.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Einherjar

[Keith]

I honestly think they should rip-off Haruhi Suzumiya yet. Ariel could get hit in the head, get anmnesia, and exponenciate her already over-blown powers. Scott Bernard could be Kyon, Glasses guy could be Koizumi, the Android chick could be Yuki, and just about anyone in the cast has tits big enough to be Mikuru. They could all fly through space trying to keep Ariel entertained so that she doesn't whipe them all out of existence. Hilarious!

[Dynaman]

a design so breathtakingly bad that even those strange mutants who thought that Robotech II: the Sentinels was a great idea have little use for it. Tommy Yune apparently felt the same about it, since one of the first things he did in the Prelude miniseries was blow the damn thing up so he could replace it with something that didn't look like a colossal crimson bowel movement:

I don't think the asthetics had anything to do with the decision to "remodel" the ship. I think there are two reasons for that being done.

1 - The original is too obviously a Zentradi inspired design, can get away with that in a comic but maybe not in animation.

2 - All the curvy lines and protuberances on the original would have been hell on their Computer Animation budget.

I *like* the Mospeda designs, a line from the movie "Crazy People" sums it up best "Boxy but nice"

[Jasonc]

How about a new Super Dimensional fortress. THAT would be more interesting if anybody cared......

Taksraven

They had designs of the Ark Angel transformed. I have a pic of that too. It was pretty decent. IMO, anything that could've made RTSC more original and different was trashed out for space hookers and someone else's designs as standby. If asked, I'm sure HG has some lousy excuse as to why they didn't use any new fighters and all, but what I posted earlier is Tommy's real reason.

[Moly_Sigang]

They had designs of the Ark Angel transformed. I have a pic of that too. It was pretty decent. IMO, anything that could've made RTSC more original and different was trashed out for space hookers and someone else's designs as standby. If asked, I'm sure HG has some lousy excuse as to why they didn't use any new fighters and all, but what I posted earlier is Tommy's real reason.

Wasn't it already specified that all the newer SDF ships no longer had any transformation capability?

[Dynaman]

Wasn't it already specified that all the newer SDF ships no longer had any transformation capability?

A good retcon could take care of that.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think the asthetics had anything to do with the decision to "remodel" the ship. I think there are two reasons for that being done.

1 - The original is too obviously a Zentradi inspired design, can get away with that in a comic but maybe not in animation.

Uh... it's a nice theory, but it falls short on the grounds that they already animated it. Carl's big red turd was a design created for the failed Robotech II: the Sentinels series, and does (briefly) appear in the animation they salvaged and made into a "movie" after the project's collapse. Carl's remarks at Robocon 10 make it clear he and Harmony Gold knew that Macross designs were off-limits, and that the designs done for Sentinels were a deliberate attempt to make things look similar to the familiar Macross designs without being similar enough to land them a copyright infringement lawsuit from Macross's creators.

2 - All the curvy lines and protuberances on the original would have been hell on their Computer Animation budget.

Eh... you might have a point there. They were certainly aiming to keep things as low-poly as humanly possible, and that'd be all but impossible with the original SDF-3 design. However, given the sheer amount of pandering to the long-time fans Tommy did in Prelude and Shadow Chronicles, I think the chief reason for blowing it up and redesigning it was to get rid of another much-maligned Sentinels design and get the ship in line with the design aesthetic of the other lightly redesigned repainted ships.

They had designs of the Ark Angel transformed. I have a pic of that too. It was pretty decent. IMO, anything that could've made RTSC more original and different was trashed out for space hookers and someone else's designs as standby. If asked, I'm sure HG has some lousy excuse as to why they didn't use any new fighters and all, but what I posted earlier is Tommy's real reason.

lol... somehow I can't see that working. (the transformation, I mean)

Wasn't it already specified that all the newer SDF ships no longer had any transformation capability?

Indeed it was. Repeatedly...

[mrhillz]

Please forgive me if this has been brought up before,but the "new thing" could be them picking up the liscense for Astro Plan, since it's so similar to Macross.

[Seto Kaiba]

Please forgive me if this has been brought up before,but the "new thing" could be them picking up the liscense for Astro Plan, since it's so similar to Macross.

Yeah... that was jokingly suggested so often that some Robotech fans actually started to believe it. That's about when all the humor went out of suggesting that might be the case. Tommy's artwork and remarks seem to point toward it being a MOSPEADA-related feature, which Astro Plan definitely isn't.

[Funkenstein]

The Facebook fan page certainly doesn't help things with the Robotech Astroplan connection. Well, I try to do my part =3

Edited November 13, 2010 by Funkenstein

[Dynaman]

Uh... it's a nice theory, but it falls short on the grounds that they already animated it.

Breetai(*) and Exsodore were in that animated item too - and in the new one they could not even use the word Zentradi anymore, so the fact it was animated way way back before the lawsuit made it clear they had no right to use the designs from Macross doesn't really mean anything.

(*) - By Breetai I mean some big buy with a bucket on his head called Breetai, supposedly is the same character from The Macross Saga...

[Seto Kaiba]

Breetai(*) and Exsodore were in that animated item too - and in the new one they could not even use the word Zentradi anymore, so the fact it was animated way way back before the lawsuit made it clear they had no right to use the designs from Macross doesn't really mean anything.

But you missed the point there... at his Robocon 10 interview, Carl Macek made it clear that Harmony Gold knew that they couldn't use designs from Macross back when they first started work on Robotech II. The lawsuits that went down in the early 00's almost certainly have no bearing on it. Those designs were created for the specific purpose of providing something that looked vaguely similar to Macross without being similar enough to get them sued for copyright infringement. Just given their behavior, I would assume their reasons for killing or otherwise banishing the remaining Sentinels versions of Macross characters was, as you assume, probably done to ensure there was zero chance of drawing unwelcome attention from Macross's creators and their lawyers.

[Keith]

But you missed the point there... at his Robocon 10 interview, Carl Macek made it clear that Harmony Gold knew that they couldn't use designs from Macross back when they first started work on Robotech II. The lawsuits that went down in the early 00's almost certainly have no bearing on it. Those designs were created for the specific purpose of providing something that looked vaguely similar to Macross without being similar enough to get them sued for copyright infringement. Just given their behavior, I would assume their reasons for killing or otherwise banishing the remaining Sentinels versions of Macross characters was, as you assume, probably done to ensure there was zero chance of drawing unwelcome attention from Macross's creators and their lawyers.

And yet they were clearly much braver about it then, as shown by their knock-off DYRL flight suits in the flight simulator at the beginning.

[Legioss]

If I understand correctly, if Harmony Gold were to use one of those designs, or the name of one of those designs, in new animation, then Harmony Gold would not get sued, but Tatsunoko would get sued and a copyright violation or breach in contract could then effect Harmony Gold as it flows downhill from Tatsunoko.

[Seto Kaiba]

And yet they were clearly much braver about it then, as shown by their knock-off DYRL flight suits in the flight simulator at the beginning.

Oh, but of course... though the important thing to remember there is that the new designs made for Robotech II: the Sentinels weren't made in-house by Harmony Gold the way the ones for Shadow Chronicles were. They were created in-house by Tatsunoko staffers Ippei Kuri (aka Toyoharu Yoshida) and Naito Anmo, who designed all the new characters and mecha respectively. This was, after all, the same project where they had to fire the writers Tatsunoko provided and bring in writers supplied by Harmony Gold because they couldn't figure out why anyone would combine three totally unrelated shows or wrap their brains around the moon logic used to make them fit together... something even modern Robotech fans frequently have a hard time with.

I'd say that, with that kind of confusion in play, it wouldn't be hard for them to make that kind of unintended gaffe... especially after they had only just finished DYRL a year or two prior to the start of work on the Robotech II project. If it was out and out "borrowing", then they probably figured (as with other vaguely familiar designs), that it was far enough away from the original to make litigation unlikely.

If I understand correctly, if Harmony Gold were to use one of those designs, or the name of one of those designs, in new animation, then Harmony Gold would not get sued, but Tatsunoko would get sued and a copyright violation or breach in contract could then effect Harmony Gold as it flows downhill from Tatsunoko.

Presumably they would both end up in court together... Tatsunoko as the licensing agent who provided Harmony Gold with the license and would be accused of misrepresenting or failing to communicate the limitations of its license to the licensees, and Harmony Gold for committing the actual violation.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Keith]

Hey, any updates on the new Robotech Projects?

lol, sorry, couldn't resist!

[anime52k8]

lol... somehow I can't see that working. (the transformation, I mean)

I think he needs to post pictures of that now.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hey, any updates on the new Robotech Projects?

News? About a new Robotech project? Come on, Keith... at least try to keep your expectations realistic! In the present situation, it's unlikely we'll hear anything on their "new" Robotech projects until at least 2012... if at all. I'd say the only kind of news we can expect regarding the LAM and Shadow Rising is a quiet notice of their cancellation a few years down the road.

I think he needs to post pictures of that now.

It would be interesting... but I doubt he has any to share.