HG and Robotech Debates

[Jasonc]

Back to LLA though. I just don't see how HG can use it. Aside from the various canon discrepencies, there's no way they can change the fact that Aisha's tits are significantly smaller than Ariels

That's gonna be the one thing people notice in this epic sidestory of Robotech...gotta be the tits. Sorry, I laughed pretty hard when I read that. That discrepency just throws all of Robotech into a nosedive straight to hell. Maybe Tommy can photoshop bigger boobs, or at least hire DR Movie to do it, since he knows their style and how they operate.

[Mr March]

Just a comment on the general discussion...

Any Robotech fan I've ever met, online or offline, is certainly aware of other Macross series at a fundamental level. I'd agree that a not insignificant minority of the Robotech fandom may be unaware of other Macross series, but they hardly account for the majority of the property's fans. Even the most casual user of the internet (which is nearly everyone at this point) who searches for Robotech online would be at least indirectly aware of other Macross series through sheer exposure via Google searches, YouTube videos and ubiquitous resources like Wikipedia.

Now if one were to characterize a Robotech fan as "30-somethings who watched Robotech as children of the 1980s", those aren't fans by any relevant definition and certainly not a financial one. It's clear those teeming masses didn't pay to see Shadow Chronicles. They are consumers with a fondness for their eighties childhoods and would sooner pay to see a Michael Bay adaptation of Transformers as they would a Robotech movie.

It's also important we note Robotech fans are niche consumers every bit as much as comic book fans or anime fans. Consumers with mainstream tastes typically do not watch Macross or Robotech nor do they read Green Lantern or Iron Man comics nor do they watch anime. These are not consumer markets in which the active online communities "represent only a very vocal minority" like the case with their contemporaries in the mainstream movie and music markets. The niche community IS the majority consumer of these niche products. These fans congregate online precisely because there is no mainstream interaction even among the major consumers of popular culture. Niche consumers are well-informed tech-savvy fans who expend far more effort than the mainstream consumer to actively seek unconventional fare. Those are not the minority of a niche product like Robotech; they are the majority and such consumers are aware of other Macross series.

Edited October 17, 2010 by Mr March

[Dynaman]

The niche community IS the majority consumer of these niche products. These fans congregate online precisely because there is no mainstream interaction even among the major consumers of popular culture.

The number just don't bear that assertion out. RT.com and it's other related site only have a couple hundred members that are active, there might be a couple thousand who logged on at one point and never posted anything too.

MW has what appears to be 100 or so active users, and there has to be more then 1000 Macross Fans in the English speaking world. So at best the online community is a very vocal minority.

RT.com has maybe a dozen active posters, say a 100 daily lurkers, the SC DVD had to have sold 5000+ copies (Can't imagine that would produce fewer then that, the cost to unit ratio would be prohibitive), so by that measure the RT online community is once again a pittance of the RT fandom.

[Mr March]

The few numbers of consequence most certainly support my assertions. Dismissing the fact I didn't limit my examples to just "message boards", there are numerous fans online that do not interact on Robotech forums (or ANY forum). The internet is filled with thousands of online locales where niche fans talk about their niche hobbies, including Robotech. Hell, when I advertised my own Macross fansite, the disparate website referrals came from all over, domestic and internationally. Our modern society ensures virtually every consumer has a basic knowledge of any product they wish to buy and niche consumers inquire about products with a zeal beyond the average consumer. If you can honestly say the vast majority performing a Macross/Robotech Google search aren't going to run into the other, well, what can I tell you?

Robotech is invariably linked to Macross, particularly in this modern age of the internet. Virtually every online source mentions the link. Almost every database or information site pays homage. Nearly every columnist writing about the topic on a sci-fi, film, animation or gaming website publishes the proper program. You're rarely going to find one mentioned without the other and would be hard pressed to remain ignorant. Though as I said, there is a not insignificant minority whose ignorance never ceases to astound

Edited October 17, 2010 by Mr March

[Dynaman]

The few numbers of consequence most certainly support my assertions.

I look at the same numbers and come up with a totally different result, but whatever.

[Mr March]

I look at the same numbers and come up with a totally different result, but whatever.

Oh come on, lets not be like that. Is the number of active posters at one message board of any consequence? I mean let's be honest. I understand where you're coming from, but it's rather arbitrary if you see what I mean.

[Dynaman]

Oh come on, lets not be like that. Is the number of active posters at one message board of any consequence? I mean let's be honest. I understand where you're coming from, but it's rather arbitrary if you see what I mean.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be snarky.

[terry the lone wolf]

Actually, both World Events & Voyager managed to do something that HG inexplicably fails at. Support the original license without trying to smother it. Go take a look at Voyager Ent's page, what will you find? A ton of news on the recent animated & live action Yamato movies. Does HG promote any of the recent Macross Projects? Of course not, because they feel entirely threatened by them.

And when did WE or Voyager support the original license holders? Those two companies never revealed their properties came from Japan. At the beginning of Robotech HG never hid the fact that their show was imported. WE even tried to license Voltron to be a movie and was almost sued by Toei Productions. In the case of Voyager, the Starblazers official site does acknowledge the Yamato works from Japan but I don't see a whole lot of support there either. It doesn't seem that there's an effort to import new Yamato projects.

Edited October 17, 2010 by terry the lone wolf

[Keith]

Failed quote attempt faield! And let's take a look here, HG only mentions Tatsunoko. They do not credit Big West, Studio Nue, or any of the original production crew. They only mention where they got the license from. They strive to hide real Macross from the U.S. at every given opportunity, including but not limited to sending dubious barely legal cease and decist notices to any shop that imports Macross product.

WE actually went back and worked with the original production crew to not only produce a movie, but a whole subset of U.S. exclusive Voltron Episodes. What did HG do? "The Sentinels."

Voyager isn't in the position to import any current Yamato products right now, they don't have the finances from it. But at the same time, they've never threatened to block anyone else from dong so. We'll see the real proof in that pudding however, when it comes time for someone to license the new Yamato Live Action movie.

[terry the lone wolf]

Failed quote attempt faield!

I believe the proper spelling is FAILED...

Oh by the by Sentinels was animated by Anime Friend who also worked on Macross.

Edited October 18, 2010 by terry the lone wolf

[Seto Kaiba]

Other than being set before the first 36 episodes, there is virtually nothing the "From the Stars" comic has in common with Macross Zero. As someone who contributed some story elements to FtS, I can assure you that it was important to avoid Macross Zero, which wasn't hard to do.

Oh, I'll grant you that Robotech: From the Stars differs from Macross Zero in many details, but it's still taking a good many pointers from it and the aforementioned parts of Macross's timeline. Coincidence, is it, that shortly after Macross Zero debuts we get a Robotech comic miniseries about a pre-war Roy piloting a prototype of the VF-1 against Anti-UN forces? That's a little hard to swallow... particularly since there was no "Anti-Unification League" in the Robotech continuity prior to that comic. All they're missing is an Anti-Unification League VF and some technophobic islanders. Then in the second half, we get a weak ripoff of Macross's timeline circa 2005 when Anti-Unification League terrorists steal a reaction weapon-equipped ship and start nuking the UN forces. Sure, this time it's an ARMD instead of an Oberth-class destroyer... but it's still pretty obvious where these ideas are coming from.

Honestly Tom, it's not like this kind of thing was a new or unexpected development in Robotech comics. The old comics made a habit of "borrowing" characters, mecha, and even whole stories from Macross or whatever else was popular back in the day. They were certainly adept at keeping their eyes on their neighbor's paper, that's for sure... and Tommy is no exception.

Using tech specs of mecha that relate to the Macross Saga (i.e. DYRL variations) is not what I would call a serious (or even non-serious) campaign to bring Macross sequels over as pseudo-sequel of Robotech.

Granted... but what about those sites that "borrow" material from other Macross shows like Macross: Flashback 2012, Macross II: Lovers Again, and Macross Zero? Even the uRRG, which is frequently mistaken for an accurate source of information by Robotech fans, draws on Macross: Flashback 2012. Right now, one of the uRRG's minor contributors is pushing a new site that (currently) borrows mecha and continuity from Macross: Flashback 2012, Macross Zero, and Macross Dynamite 7. There are also plenty of other Robotech fan sites that "borrow" from an astonishing array of Macross sources... even going so far as to pillage concept art from Macross art books. It's that kind of BS that I'm talking about. You're hard pressed to find a Robotech site that doesn't steal from at least one Macross source unrelated to Robotech.

I don't agree with this broad characterization, I've never encountered a single RT fan who seriously advocated incorporating Macross sequels into Robotech, certainly not anyone who had actually watched them.

I guess you've been out of touch for a while then... I've met a fair few on that anemic ghost town we know as robotech.com just in the past few years. I've seen proposals to throw out Southern Cross and replace it with Macross II: Lovers Again and/or make Macross II a Masters Saga sequel/side-story. I've seen proposals to use Macross Zero as a Robotech prequel, complete with suggested changes to the story.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

And when did WE or Voyager support the original license holders? Those two companies never revealed their properties came from Japan.

Oh really?

Check 0:33: "Originally produced in Japan by Yoshinobu Nishizaki under the title 'Space Cruiser Yamato.'"

At the beginning of Robotech HG never hid the fact that their show was imported.

Again, I must've missed the "originally produced in Japan" portion of Robotech's credits.

In the case of Voyager, the Starblazers official site does acknowledge the Yamato works from Japan but I don't see a whole lot of support there either. It doesn't seem that there's an effort to import new Yamato projects.

No, there's no real push to import new Yamato stuff...all that starblazers.com has is insightful, well-researched articles about the history of Yamato and Star Blazers, tons of translated interviews with the original staff, and a tremendous photo gallery of vintage Yamato merchandise.

Which is far better tan anythng on RT.com

[Wanzerfan]

Drat... I was hoping for Robotech III: the Sentinels II (Ohio State: 0) or something ridiculous like that...

All I'll say on that subject is that I hope a neutron warhead gets detonated in the middle of the University of Michigan campus in Ann Arbor.

Scarlet and Grey forever!!!

[chrisk]

No, there's no real push to import new Yamato stuff...all that starblazers.com has is insightful, well-researched articles about the history of Yamato and Star Blazers, tons of translated interviews with the original staff, and a tremendous photo gallery of vintage Yamato merchandise.

Which is far better tan anythng on RT.com

Sarcasm mode initiated.

What you say is meaningless.

Harmony Gold is a super awesome company.

They love (to milk dry) their fanbase.

And come up with quality merchandise.

They create new and original stories.

And give credit where credit is due.

Sarcasm mode disabled.

[terry the lone wolf]

Oh really?

Check 0:33: "Originally produced in Japan by Yoshinobu Nishizaki under the title 'Space Cruiser Yamato.'"

Again, I must've missed the "originally produced in Japan" portion of Robotech's credits

On the back of the cover from Comico's English adaption of Macross there's an article written by Carl Macek (who also wrote the comic and illustrated by his wife Svea) of the process of translating Macross for a Western audience. There's also a mention of combining Macross with Southern Cross and Mospeada into a brand new series. Words like "Anime" or "Japanimation" were used throughout the article. Robotech Arts 1 & 2 and the Files Spotlight of Robotech are good references for RT's Japanese origins.

Credit was given to Tatsunoko because that's who HG was licensing from and not BW. Yoshinobu Nishizaki must of have retained a huge creator credit where BW didn't because they gave up their international rights.....I thought Leiji Matsumoto created Yamato, oh well...

I also notice you didn't link to the credits from Voltron for their "ahem" mentions to the original GoLion and Dai Rugger series.

Edited October 18, 2010 by terry the lone wolf

[Keith]

On the back cover of some obscure tape that was only mail order & abandoned...Where's the credit in "any" Robotech material produced since then? When are the original series or creators mentioned by Macek "except" to say how much he improved upon what those whacky Japanese did with their crazy concepts? Where are the original episode directors credits, character design credits, mecha design credits, scenario what all in any Robotech production?

The only time HG will address an issue regarding the original series involved with production, is to impose thier ::cough cough:: copyright.

[Smegalot]

I agree, HG have not create anything original, except for CS, and even then they had to borrow from Mosepeada, to help complete there movie. As all it's mecha were from Mosepeada. only the Haydonites were the original.

But they have no really copyright on macross in my thinking. Macross Plus and Macross II were all released by other companies internationally. SO I can not see the reason why they are stopping everything else. Other that they want credit for others work.

I mean if they were really serious. They would of been after royalties from Yamoto, for the VF-I's that they have created. And Bandai for all the Macross material they they have been producing for years. ANd they would of gone after anyone that was trying to sell any Macross items internationally. But they haven't.

I admit I did enjoy Robotech when it first came out. And it was good for it's time. But now thanks to HG the new Macross Stuff does not get to a wider group of people. And Macross Frontier would of done quite well internationally. But is help up because another company wants to say. But hey that's ours.

I know there is a Robotech fan base. And they say there numbers count. But for a company to stop a whole series all because they want a piece of it. I mean if it was really copyrighted to them. they would of stopped any new Macross series. And for that theory of making Macross Zero into a pre-robotech is a joke. I mean a lot of people would of already see it. And I know that I would not see it. I prefer the original. As the "original creators" meant it to be.

But in my opinion for Robotech to survive they should just start creating there own stuff otherwise no-one will take them seriously (look at this foprum). And let macross through.

I still think they see it as a way to make easy money. ANd it all started when the Macross Plus 1:72 Valks came out. I would of gotten one at a decent price. But heard it got hold up because of legal issues. Because of distribution/copyrigght issues. And here we are many years later still stuck in a useless debate. As nothing happens from it. And HG would have to have someone monitoring these forums.

Enough of my ranting, but it just how I feel.

My additional 2 cents worth (with spelling mistakes)

[Seto Kaiba]

[...]

Come on... is it really that hard to use the quote tag properly? It's really a pain trying to figure out where the quoted passage ends and your post actually begins.

Where are the original episode directors credits, character design credits, mecha design credits, scenario what all in any Robotech production?

Nowhere... to date, I don't think any release of Robotech has ever properly credited the creators of the original shows for their work. The only concession they've ever made to acknowledging the real creators of the shows that make up Robotech is crediting Tatsunoko (and only Tatsunoko) for the production of the animation. One of the things I heard about RT25 was that they went out of their way to properly credit and acknowledge the real creators of those shows.

But they have no really copyright on macross in my thinking. Macross Plus and Macross II were all released by other companies internationally. SO I can not see the reason why they are stopping everything else. Other that they want credit for others work.

To be blunt, it's not nearly that simple.

Part of what kicked the whole legal tiff between Big West and Tatsunoko off was Harmony Gold's baseless and rather perplexing assertion that their license agreement with Tatsunoko covered all of Macross rather than just the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series. Obviously, the reason they've gone to the trouble of ensuring other companies can't license the rest of Macross for distribution is because they found out the rights they had for the original series didn't grant them rights to the rest, and they want to protect their Robotech franchise by keeping superior quality Macross goods and shows out of the hands of consumers unless they stand to profit from it too.

[terry the lone wolf]

On the back cover of some obscure tape that was only mail order & abandoned...Where's the credit in "any" Robotech material produced since then? When are the original series or creators mentioned by Macek "except" to say how much he improved upon what those whacky Japanese did with their crazy concepts? Where are the original episode directors credits, character design credits, mecha design credits, scenario what all in any Robotech production?

The only time HG will address an issue regarding the original series involved with production, is to impose thier ::cough cough:: copyright.

I said an article in the Macross#1 comic book published by Comico in 1984 written by Carl Macek himself.

First of all its not Macek's job to announce everybody who worked on the previous show when he's selling his show. Second, Big West sold their international rights off so they really can't complain "Oh why, oh why didn't they mention us". Finally, if HG decides to mention everybody under the sun who worked on Macross to appease the fundimentalists that's cool. Though I don't see a real need for it.

[Keith]

I said an article in the Macross#1 comic book published by Comico in 1984 written by Carl Macek himself.

First of all its not Macek's job to announce everybody who worked on the previous show when he's selling his show. Second, Big West sold their international rights off so they really can't complain "Oh why, oh why didn't they mention us". Finally, if HG decides to mention everybody under the sun who worked on Macross to appease the fundimentalists that's cool. Though I don't see a real need for it.

It's not the producers job to make sure that proper credits are added to a production...then who's job is it?

[terry the lone wolf]

It's not the producers job to make sure that proper credits are added to a production...then who's job is it?

They did give credit to...Tatsunoko Productions. The point you're not getting is BW gave up their rights to be credited for anything by selling off the international rights. If they wanted credit and money from RT than they should've kept those rights or negotiated to maintain some creator credit. Maybe they had the foresight not to give up their rights to designs and overall story for Macross.

[Moly_Sigang]

They did give credit to...Tatsunoko Productions. The point you're not getting is BW gave up their rights to be credited for anything by selling off the international rights. If they wanted credit and money from RT than they should've kept those rights or negotiated to maintain some creator credit. Maybe they had the foresight not to give up their rights to designs and overall story for Macross.

Big West did gave Tatsunoko the international rights to SDF Macross, but from my understanding, they didn't waiver their whole rights to the show.

[terry the lone wolf]

Big West did gave Tatsunoko the international rights to SDF Macross, but from my understanding, they didn't waiver their whole rights to the show.

Once the property is in the international market and if you sold your rights you have no say. Unless you're willing to buy them back so your properties are back in your fold.

[Jasonc]

It sounds like most of these comments are generalizations of the law, and are missing more of the details that are involved in this murky issue. I'm not exactly sure if HG ever had to really give credit to the creators and designers, but even if they didn't, it's still bad form not to. If anime hadn't exploded like it did back when, I don't think they would've ever mentioned names like Mikimoto, Kawamori, Miyatake, Kakinuma, and all the others. Kinda sad.

[Gubaba]

On the back of the cover from Comico's English adaption of Macross there's an article written by Carl Macek (who also wrote the comic and illustrated by his wife Svea) of the process of translating Macross for a Western audience. There's also a mention of combining Macross with Southern Cross and Mospeada into a brand new series. Words like "Anime" or "Japanimation" were used throughout the article. Robotech Arts 1 & 2 and the Files Spotlight of Robotech are good references for RT's Japanese origins.

Yeah. Comico also mentioned it in Robotech: The Macross Saga #2 to explain why the title had changed. That's not the same as putting it in the actual show, though.

Credit was given to Tatsunoko because that's who HG was licensing from and not BW. Yoshinobu Nishizaki must of have retained a huge creator credit where BW didn't because they gave up their international rights.....I thought Leiji Matsumoto created Yamato, oh well...

Is that the reason Big West isn't listed? Source, please? Because the staff members for Southern Cross and Mospeada are likewise not listed...and I don't think anyone who worked on those shows sold their rights to them...

As for Star Blazers...both Nishizaki and Matsumoto are mentioned in the credits. But the credit says "produced in Japan," and Nishizaki was indeed the producer.

The only original staff members mentioned in the Robotech credits were Kenji Yoshida and Ippei Kuri...Yoshida produced Mospeada. Ippei Kuri was the head of Tatsunoko. I don't think he directed any of the episodes of any of the three shows.

I also notice you didn't link to the credits from Voltron for their "ahem" mentions to the original GoLion and Dai Rugger series.

No, I didn't. Nor did I say you were wrong about them. But you said that neither Voltron nor Star Blazers mentioned their roots, and it's untrue that Star Blazers didn't. I was correcting your factual error, not arguing with you.

First of all its not Macek's job to announce everybody who worked on the previous show when he's selling his show. Second, Big West sold their international rights off so they really can't complain "Oh why, oh why didn't they mention us".

Big West complained? When?

Finally, if HG decides to mention everybody under the sun who worked on Macross to appease the fundimentalists that's cool. Though I don't see a real need for it.

Mentioning the people who ACTUALLY MADE THE SHOW is only important to "fundamentalists"? What are credits for, then?

[Ginrai]

Why are you people so interested in seeing Big West written on things? Big West is an advertising agency. They didn't CREATE anything. Studio Nue, Artland, and various freelancers and outsourced studios created Macross. Big West just put up money. Care about the artists, not the guys with the checkbooks.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Ginrai

[Gubaba]

Why are you people so interested in seeing Big West written on things? Big West is an advertising agency. They didn't CREATE anything. Studio Nue, Artland, and various freelancers and outsourced studios created Macross. Big West just put up money. Care about the artists, not the guys with the checkbooks.

Good point.

[azrael]

Heck, even when asked by the by the judge, BW said no one from BW participated in the actual production of SDFM.

[Jasonc]

Thus the reason why I mentioned just some of the character designers and artists. They should've gotten more credit than they did.

[anime52k8]

They did give credit to...Tatsunoko Productions. The point you're not getting is BW gave up their rights to be credited for anything by selling off the international rights. If they wanted credit and money from RT than they should've kept those rights or negotiated to maintain some creator credit. Maybe they had the foresight not to give up their rights to designs and overall story for Macross.

the point you're not getting is that it doesn't matter what HG legally had to include in the credits to Robotech. the point is even if they didn't HAVE to include such credits, it was still a dick move to not acknowledge the source material they're show is built on, and the people who actually did work to make that source material.

Regardless of what they were actually required to say about the Respective original shows, it demonstrates that the company producing the new show has some semblance of common decency and respectability when they acknowledge the source material used to make their new show.

[terry the lone wolf]

Thus the reason why I mentioned just some of the character designers and artists. They should've gotten more credit than they did.

Mikimoto was credited as the character designer for Robotech Macross Saga in Robotech Art 2.

[Seto Kaiba]

They did give credit to...Tatsunoko Productions. The point you're not getting is BW gave up their rights to be credited for anything by selling off the international rights.

No, they did not. Big West and Studio Nue only gave Tatsunoko the distribution and merchandising rights to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross series outside of Japan. In order to forfeit their right to be credited for all their work on the series, they would have had to give up ownership of the material they created. Of course, since we have ironclad proof that they didn't do that, the people who created the shows that make up Robotech should've been properly credited for their work. That the people at Studio Nue, Artmic, et. al. whose talents actually made the material that Carl Macek and co. badly rewrote is just insulting, and smacks of an attempt to take credit for someone else's work.

Mikimoto was credited as the character designer for Robotech Macross Saga in Robotech Art 2.

But, to date, not in the show... nor is anyone else who actually created those shows. Nobody gives a flip about the old Comico comics and the Robotech Art series... least of all Robotech Art 2.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[terry the lone wolf]

[

Big West complained? When?

Mentioning the people who ACTUALLY MADE THE SHOW is only important to "fundamentalists"? What are credits for, then?

I've heard that the issue they weren't consulted on the handling of Macross for RT came up in the court case in Tokyo. Though I wrote that statement not for BW but for some of the fans that keep hanging that over the heads of HG like the Sword of Damocles.

[terry the lone wolf]

No, they did not. Big West and Studio Nue only gave Tatsunoko the distribution and merchandising rights to the Super Dimension Fortress Macross series outside of Japan. In order to forfeit their right to be credited for all their work on the series, they would have had to give up ownership of the material they created. Of course, since we have ironclad proof that they didn't do that, the people who created the shows that make up Robotech should've been properly credited for their work. That the people at Studio Nue, Artmic, et. al. whose talents actually made the material that Carl Macek and co. badly rewrote is just insulting, and smacks of an attempt to take credit for someone else's work.

Sounds like BW put the screws to Studio Nue & Artland for making that deal with Tatasunoko that led to Macross just being added to the Tatsunoko Machine and not standing out as its own entity.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sounds like BW put the screws to Studio Nue & Artland for making that deal with Tatasunoko that led to Macross just being added to the Tatsunoko Machine and not standing out as its own entity.

Okay, you were long on rhetoric and short on sense before... but now you've crossed the line into full-blown unintelligibility. I'd ask what you were talking about, but I'm not sure even you know anymore.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Seto Kaiba