HG and Robotech Debates

[taksraven]

I'm sure, contractually, HG does have some veto power over the LAM. As in, if it strays too far from their copyright, they have the ability to pull the license from WB/Macguire Ent.. Basically, breach-of-contract.

They probably could but such an action would also probably land them in court and HG would find itself in the sort of legal sh_.tfight that would scare the pants out of their normally chickenshit "C&D" legal crew. They would be going up against the big boys and personally I think that HG would never have the balls to engage in a legal fight that could bankrupt them.

Taksraven

[azrael]

That I'm pretty confidant they do not have. They would be lucky to get a veto option on the script (which does not mean the movie does not get made, it usually just means that small changes have to be made to please them - the Harry Potter example being a good case of this). For WB to sign ANY contract that states that HG could pull the license - HG is just not big enough to bother with those kinds of shenanigans.

I think you misunderstood. Their "veto" option won't apply to the script, but more along the production in general, which is something that rarely happens, period. If WB were to violate their contract in some form HG could pull the license from WB/Macguire Ent.. That would be their veto option.

They probably could but such an action would also probably land them in court and HG would find itself in the sort of legal sh_.tfight that would scare the pants out of their normally chickenshit "C&D" legal crew. They would be going up against the big boys and personally I think that HG would never have the balls to engage in a legal fight that could bankrupt them.

Smaller groups have won over larger ones so it's possible. For something like this to happen though, it would require a serious breach-of-contract.

[Jasonc]

Even if said conflict occurred, I don't think HG would go that far. They've given WB their game license, as well as a good number of their merchandising licenses. I think they wanna sell the franchise to WB, and engaging in a legal battle would not only cost them a lot of money, but it'd probably ruin HG's chances of getting rid of a franchise they've probably been wanting to pawn off to someone else.

[Einherjar]

Even if said conflict occurred, I don't think HG would go that far. They've given WB their game license, as well as a good number of their merchandising licenses. I think they wanna sell the franchise to WB, and engaging in a legal battle would not only cost them a lot of money, but it'd probably ruin HG's chances of getting rid of a franchise they've probably been wanting to pawn off to someone else.

Wouldn't WB know by now what those licensing rights really amount to, especially with how they've been treating the LAM recently? They would not be so silent about the movie if they had more confidence in it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wouldn't WB know by now what those licensing rights really amount to, especially with how they've been treating the LAM recently? They would not be so silent about the movie if they had more confidence in it.

If anything, the recent behavior of producer Tobey Maguire might shed some light on what's going on with Robotech's live-action movie. Robotech isn't the only project he's involved it, but it does seem to be far and away the lowest priority, since he's also producing two other films... Tokyo Suckerpunch (in which he is also starring), and Afterburn... which are slated to come out in 2011 and 2012 respectively, if memory serves.

Clearly Warner isn't the only one who's finally realized what they've bought.

I think you misunderstood. Their "veto" option won't apply to the script, but more along the production in general, which is something that rarely happens, period. If WB were to violate their contract in some form HG could pull the license from WB/Macguire Ent.. That would be their veto option.

But, as my example illustrated, the type of "veto" power they're talking about has been given to property owners before... though it's doubtful they had enough clout to get it added to their licensing contract.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[taksraven]

Clearly Warner isn't the only one who's finally realized what they've bought.

At the end of the day, what have they "bought" that is useful anyway.

The name "robotech" and a bastardised franchise that they probably can't legally use a lot of. *If* the Macross stuff is off limits, what else can they use? What can they use of SC and Mospeada. (Not that they would want to use much of them anyway.

Tobey and WB would have done better if they had gone to Japan to try to purchase LAM rights to Macross itself, since that is what they are really after. (Unless they are truly insane)

[azrael]

Tobey and WB would have done better if they had gone to Japan to try to purchase LAM rights to Macross itself, since that is what they are really after. (Unless they are truly insane)

But then they would have been sued by HG for trademark infringement.

[Seto Kaiba]

The name "robotech" and a bastardised franchise that they probably can't legally use a lot of. *If* the Macross stuff is off limits, what else can they use? What can they use of SC and Mospeada. (Not that they would want to use much of them anyway.

Well, y'see... the way copyright law is written with respect to derivative works, there's no way that Harmony Gold could give Warner Bros permission to do a straight-up adaptation of Macross. However, they can freely use any of the aspects of the "Macross Saga" story that they can legally claim copyright on. In short, they can freely use anything they created that wasn't present in the original work.

So, yes... they can technically make a Macross Saga movie. It won't look anything like the Macross Saga that Robotech fans are familiar with, since the copyrighted mechanical and character designs are owned by a company with whom Harmony Gold is not on good terms, but they can still use the character names from Robotech, and have it be about an alien ship called Zor's battlefortress, and have Robotech Masters and all of that malarkey. It won't have most of the landmarks of the Macross story that so many Robotech fans mistake for Macek's handiwork, but at least the names and the general thrust of the plot (giant aliens want Zor's battlefortress back) can be the same.

[taksraven]

(giant aliens want Zor's battlefortress back)

Couldn't even using the idea of giant aliens be considered use of Macross material?

Taksraven

[azrael]

Couldn't even using the idea of giant aliens be considered use of Macross material?

Nope. The story is copyrighted by Tatsunoko.

[Keith]

Nope. The story is copyrighted by Tatsunoko.

In the U.S., under dubious pretences. The Intellectual property is still owned by Big West in Japan, which in a knock out brawl would supercede claiming ownership in the U.S.

[Seto Kaiba]

Couldn't even using the idea of giant aliens be considered use of Macross material?

Eh...the idea of having a race of giants as the antagonist(s) wasn't exactly an original idea when Macross's creators did it in 1982. You could argue the earliest example was Gulliver's Travels, which was published in 1726. Of course, if you want to refine it down to giant space aliens, 1973's La Planète Sauvage, a French animated film, is the earliest example I can find. Now, if they were to incorporate aspects that are quite distinctly Macross... like their uniforms, mecha, and insignia, then they'd be in trouble for sure. Whether they'd be able to get away with them being giant aliens cloned for use in war is dubious, since Robotech did change the backstory significantly, which could potentially put them in the clear. After all, it's not like clone armies are something unique to Macross either.

[azrael]

In the U.S., under dubious pretences. The Intellectual property is still owned by Big West in Japan, which in a knock out brawl would supercede claiming ownership in the U.S.

That's incorrect and very very vague (using the term "intellectual property", as I've mentioned before is extremely vague and should be avoided). The character designs and mecha designs are owned by Big West; the story is not. The story to SDFM (and only SDFM) is owned by Tatsunoko. And as Seto pointed out, the story is exactly original.

[Seto Kaiba]

That's incorrect and very very vague (using the term "intellectual property", as I've mentioned before is extremely vague and should be avoided). The character designs and mecha designs are owned by Big West; the story is not. The story to SDFM (and only SDFM) is owned by Tatsunoko.

Any way you shake it, the course of action that Warner Bros and Maguire Entertainment are most likely to take will be to sidestep any potential legal entanglements surrounding the source material by using only those aspects of Robotech that are owned entirely by Harmony Gold. In short, only those aspects of the story not present in the original show that were created by Harmony Gold during the adaptation process.

[Moly_Sigang]

So what if the RTLAM doesn't use the Macross related designs but still follow the same basic outline of the story of SDFM, can Big West still take some legal action to stop the RTLAM?

Edited July 12, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[taksraven]

All arguing aside, I guess that by the time TF hit the big screen, there was essentially bugger all of the original G1 universe left in the storyline. But that was one of the most disappointing parts of the film series to me. And I always got the feeling that it was left out due to the fact that it was too expensive to film.

Maybe in a RT:LAM (should it ever get made) there probably won't be any massive space-fortress in it either as it would prove to be too costly.

[Seto Kaiba]

So what if the RTLAM doesn't use the Macross related designs but still follow the same basic outline of the story of SDFM, can Big West still take some legal action to stop the RTLAM?

I'm sure if they really wanted to they could find some rationale to go to court over it, but if past performance is any indication... they won't have to. Ever since Harmony Gold inadvertently started the whole Big West vs Tatsunoko legal brouhaha, they've been assiduously avoiding using anything from Macross in a way that could be actionable. Dodging legalities is more than likely the reason Harmony Gold opted to kill or otherwise dispose of any and all familiar faces from the Macross Saga who weren't plot-critical in a nice, safe comic book miniseries where the odd fact that comics are technically merchandise gives them the ability to use those designs in a Robotech title without the need to fear litigious retribution.

Maybe in a RT:LAM (should it ever get made) there probably won't be any massive space-fortress in it either as it would prove to be too costly.

Nah, that big honking MacGuffin and various attempts to recapture it are the central plot point for pretty much two-thirds of the entire Robotech continuity. It'd take a LOT of extreme rewriting and shoddy editing to banish that plot point... and if they manage that, why even try to call it Robotech? Why not just stop beating around the bush and give that mess a new, more appropriate title like Baron von Macek's F*cking Plagiarized Adventure, How to Lose an Audience in 10 Minutes, or perhaps Battlefield Earth 2. No matter what they call it, if the movie does make it to release there's little doubt it'll be a big winner at the Razzies just like Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen was.

(Incidentally, Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen was nominated for Razzies in seven categories, incl. Worst Actress (Megan Fox), Worst Supporting Actress (Julie White), Worst Screen Couple (for Shia LaBeouf and either Fox or any Transformer), Worst Prequel, Remake, Rip-Off, or Sequel, and Worst Picture, Worst Director, and Worst Screenplay. It actually won Worst Screenplay, Worst Director, and Worst Picture.)

[Robelwell202]

All arguing aside, I guess that by the time TF hit the big screen, there was essentially bugger all of the original G1 universe left in the storyline. But that was one of the most disappointing parts of the film series to me. And I always got the feeling that it was left out due to the fact that it was too expensive to film.

Maybe I can add a bit to this point. While we're mostly talking about bringing animated series to cinema, there's something else to consider, too. Remakes.

There was a time when a 'remake' bore some kind of resemblance to the original film. I don't like remakes, particularly, but the point stands.

Nowadays, though, there seems to be a trend of using a name only. Case in point: The Day The Earth Stood Still.

I'm an intense fan of the original film. It's one of my favorites. Gort was one of the original 'Big, Bad Robots' of 1950s Sci-Fi.

Now, take this latest attrocity, which had precious little in common with the original. Klatuu was an enigmatic oddity with a penchant for psycho-cybernetic mayhem, and Gort was a complete disaster (going so far as to give 'Gort' a human meaning, as opposed to the machine's actual name in the original). in fact, the only two aspects of the newer film had with the original were the name 'Gort', and the most famous words in sci-fi, 'Klatuu Beradda Nikto' (But even these words were used inappropriately, which means it was just a sad attempt to tie it to the original).

Now, my point is this: With this trend of 'reimagining' an established story, WB/Maguire might just do what they will, if the project ever comes off the shelf. But, then again, it probably won't, as Seto's so brilliantly explained.

[azrael]

Now, my point is this: With this trend of 'reimagining' an established story, WB/Maguire might just do what they will, if the project ever comes off the shelf. But, then again, it probably won't, as Seto's so brilliantly explained.

I made that point many moons ago before our LAM thread turned into a pile of poo. Anyway you shake it, the LAM will not look like it's cartoon origins. Going from one medium to another doesn't translate well. And Seto's point is valid; they'll just use the story from Robotech anyways.

[Zor Primus]

Lame cop-out imo by HG to wait for the live action movie to move forward. What could a post Macross saga story really have on anything at all? It's not like they are going to make the movie cannon over the series. As a fan of RT it sucks to see them totally waste a 25th Anniversary with not a single real significant event or recognition of the landmark date other than stopping their fans from being creative with a self made production.

But luckily that has not been the case with the Macross series...at least we know where, who and what belong and have had new life after the initial series.

[Seto Kaiba]

Lame cop-out imo by HG to wait for the live action movie to move forward.

And what, may I ask, is Harmony Gold but a company that keeps its repeat customers by stringing them along with an endless stream of empty promises and weak excuses?

It's not like they are going to make the movie cannon over the series.

In point of fact, there's a strong possibility that they'll do exactly that if the live action movie turns out to be a success. The nature of the so-called "original 85" as a hodge-podge of unrelated shows introduces a great many problematic legal hurdles (discussed elsewhere in this thread) that hamper Harmony Gold's ability to continue the story in any meaningful way. If the live action Robotech movie were to succeed, they would no longer have any reason to try to keep the animated series's rapidly shrinking fanbase (people like you) happy by continuing the story in progress. They could banish the vast majority of the franchise's legal issues for good by tossing the animated series out like they did the old comics and novels, and starting over from scratch with the movies and/or an all-new series based on them. It's what Paramount did, and the only reason Warner picked up Robotech was they wanted to try to make that particular brand of drippy brown lightning strike twice.

As a fan of RT it sucks to see them totally waste a 25th Anniversary with not a single real significant event or recognition of the landmark date other than stopping their fans from being creative with a self made production.

So, let me get this straight... you, as a fan of Robotech, think it sucks more than usual that Harmony Gold refused to break with their 25 year tradition of failure and incompetence this year by doing nothing of any significance and having nothing to show for all the empty promises they've made?

If you don't mind my asking, what makes this year such an exceptional disappointment? Is it just that you assumed this year's damp squib was going to be special because it was 25 years ago that Robotech was shat out onto TV to imitate the success of Transformers ('s funny how history repeats itself, isn't it?) and was promptly ignored because two-thirds of it is rubbish? Did you, perchance, forget that every anniversary occasion for Robotech has essentially been a celebration of how they've achieved nothing in the X years since their last major failure? Seriously, I'd like to know... how anyone familiar with their "achievements" can expect anything BUT failure and disappointment from them is a mystery to me.

But luckily that has not been the case with the Macross series...at least we know where, who and what belong and have had new life after the initial series.

Well, yes... that's because Macross is a reasonably popular, competently run franchise, while Robotech is basically just bad crossover fan-fiction and shameless plagiarism partially legitimized by a licensing agreement.

[HappyPenguins]

the live action RT movie aint getting made

its just another project stuck in development hell

[Jasonc]

Lame cop-out imo by HG to wait for the live action movie to move forward. What could a post Macross saga story really have on anything at all? It's not like they are going to make the movie cannon over the series. As a fan of RT it sucks to see them totally waste a 25th Anniversary with not a single real significant event or recognition of the landmark date other than stopping their fans from being creative with a self made production.

But luckily that has not been the case with the Macross series...at least we know where, who and what belong and have had new life after the initial series.

Man, you're the 2nd Robotech fan in 2 days I've talked with that has expressed to me and others their displeasure with the franchise. I had to wonder what the heck they are doing over there besides coming up with excuses for why they don't do anything. I mean, they didn't even really have anything different or big on the website, unless you count the cut and paste 25 year alpha pic. Who knows, maybe if they've still got the same employees and the same website, they'll draw another picture for the 50 year anniversary??? OK, maybe not, maybe for 30 years?

I understand how you feel as well. Being a fan of it from back in the day, it really does suck to see little to no attention paid to the original series. That said, I really have no interest or even care for anything from the start of the Wildstorm comics on. But as a few will often say here, what type of gripping story do you expect from HG with the staff they have now?

[chrisk]

I had to wonder what the heck they are doing over there besides coming up with excuses for why they don't do anything.

Well, according to their itinerary for their "signature con" in New Orleans, Tommy's holding some workshop on how to draw comic books (never underestimate the power of Speed Racer!), and McKeever has some panel on independent filmmaking(?). And then they hold some topical anime-related panel like "is manga publishing dying?" or "are anime conventions dying?" or "is anime in general dying?" - cuz' the anime industry is all about dying.

And finally, they invite Tony Oliver or Mari Ijima to show up for some three hour panel to talk about how Robotech made such a splash in the 80's and how we'll never hear the end of it when we're all old and decrepit. And then you all eat in some restaurant that serves something either grilled or deep-fried and pretend to be friends for a night.

Then you pretend you don't know each other on Robotech.com.

Oh, and lets not forget AWESOME PRIZES LIKE MUGS AND TSHIRTS and SIGNED STACKS OF COMICS YOU ALREADY OWNED FIVE YEARS AGO COLLECTED IN HARDBOUND TRADE PAPERBACK!!!!!!!

Do I get a cookie?

Edited July 13, 2010 by chrisk

[Jasonc]

...And then you all eat in some restaurant that serves something either grilled or deep-fried and pretend to be friends for a night.

Then you pretend you don't know each other on Robotech.com.

Oh, and lets not forget AWESOME PRIZES LIKE MUGS AND TSHIRTS and SIGNED STACKS OF COMICS YOU ALREADY OWNED FIVE YEARS AGO COLLECTED IN HARDBOUND TRADE PAPERBACK!!!!!!!

Do I get a cookie?

Don't really get the restaurant part, but other than that, you're on the right track. As far as AX this year, most of the guys still part of rt.com are still friends. It's just one or two, and then the staff, that were pretty much shunned.

[Keith]

That's incorrect and very very vague (using the term "intellectual property", as I've mentioned before is extremely vague and should be avoided). The character designs and mecha designs are owned by Big West; the story is not. The story to SDFM (and only SDFM) is owned by Tatsunoko. And as Seto pointed out, the story is exactly original.

Going by the citings in the link you posted, and seriously not trying to go off into a licensing debate tangent, the only copyright for the "story" shown being owned by Tatsunoko is in the U.S. While the Japanese rulings also shown there list Big West/Studio Nue as having the Intellectual property.

Main Entry: intellectual property Function: nounDate: 1845Results

1845property (as an idea, invention, or process) that derives from the work of the mind or intellectalsoan application, right, or registration relating to this

i.e. "Story." In Japan, while Tatsunoko only has the distribution rights for the completed animatoin.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Keith

[Seto Kaiba]

the live action RT movie aint getting made

its just another project stuck in development hell

Yeah, it certainly looks that way... has anyone "in the know" had anything more to say about the September 2010 drop dead date that was supposedly attached to the live action movie license? I'd be very surprised if Warner Bros has actually made any progress on the film since they showed an early story treatment to Sylvain White. Certainly Tobey Maguire isn't making Robotech his top priority... in fact, it looks like he's been ignoring the project for at least two years now, and is focusing on other films that stand a chance of actually being released.

I had to wonder what the heck they are doing over there besides coming up with excuses for why they don't do anything.

Y'know, I have it on excellent authority that they spend a lot of their free time tossing cards into a hat and giving each other piggyback rides when they're not preoccupied with appealing to Tommy Yune's colossal ego in the faint hope that he might do some actual work one of these days instead of just endlessly congratulating himself for Shadow Chronicles.

That said, I really have no interest or even care for anything from the start of the Wildstorm comics on. But as a few will often say here, what type of gripping story do you expect from HG with the staff they have now?

Herein lies the paradox of the Robotech fandom... the fans want to see Harmony Gold pay more attention to the "original" TV series and build on it, but when they actually get it (e.g. Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles) they immediately turn up their noses at it because it's embarrassingly amateurish. This endless cycle of optimism and disappointment that so many Robotech fans are mired in stems from the disconnect between their expectations of what Harmony Gold can do based on their rose-tinted memories of the TV series and what Harmony Gold is actually capable of. In many cases, this disconnect is almost unconscious... the fans don't mentally account for the fact that almost everything they enjoyed about the "original 85" was the work of the original creators, who were actually competent people.

So, of course, when the time comes to make a Robotech sequel, those fans expect the same levels of quality from Harmony Gold... a much less capable outfit whose best writers would have great difficulty achieving a passing mark in a middle school creative writing class. It's not a matter of their work on the new shows being worse than what they contributed to the original TV series, since they're on about the same level, it's that the fans rate the series higher based on elements that Harmony Gold had nothing to do with. The reason the stories of the sequels all suck exceptionally hard is because they can no longer get by on changing the names in stories written by competent people.

Tommy's holding some workshop on how to draw comic books

So, it's an hour or so on how to draw women who look like a pencil that's been stuck through two grapes?

McKeever has some panel on independent filmmaking(?).

Isn't that a little outside his skill set? He's a "marketing coordinator" and his education in the fine arts consists of a BFA in lighting design, of all the silly things.

And then they hold some topical anime-related panel like "is manga publishing dying?" or "are anime conventions dying?" or "is anime in general dying?" - cuz' the anime industry is all about dying.

No doubt they're hoping the industry is dying so things can come full circle and they can go back to slapping their names on someone else's work and passing it off as something original.

And finally, they invite Tony Oliver or Mari Ijima to show up for some three hour panel to talk about how Robotech made such a splash in the 80's and how we'll never hear the end of it when we're all old and decrepit.

So, 3 hours of flim-flam and wild exaggerations in the faint hope that it'll convince people that Robotech wasn't roundly ignored even in the 1980s. It's just insulting to everyone else who worked in the industry before Robotech came along, and frankly everyone who came after too...

And then you all eat in some restaurant that serves something either grilled or deep-fried and pretend to be friends for a night.

Then you pretend you don't know each other on Robotech.com.

Nah, didn't you hear? This year they're going to a restaurant that specializes in grilling deep fried food! Seriously though, considering all the hostility and jockeying for "biggest fanboy" points we see in the vocal fans, one has to wonder how they manage to put aside all their idiot tendencies for a few hours to pretend they don't quietly detest each other and themselves.

Oh, and lets not forget AWESOME PRIZES LIKE MUGS AND TSHIRTS and SIGNED STACKS OF COMICS YOU ALREADY OWNED FIVE YEARS AGO COLLECTED IN HARDBOUND TRADE PAPERBACK!!!!!!!

Hey, they gotta do SOMETHING to make it feel like they aren't just going through the motions to string along the brain-dead cattle that compose 9/10ths of the Robotech fanbase.

Do I get a cookie?

Yep! Tommy baked them himself for a gathering of all of his fans after the convention. They come in two flavors... arsenic and potassium cyanide!

In all seriousness, I half-expect a mass ritualistic suicide from the Robotech fans if the live-action movie and/or the Shadow Rising movie get canceled. They're almost as big a pack of nuts as the Scientologists, and that's saying something.

[Einherjar]

Nintendo Doesn't Want To Criminalize Obsessed Fans

Of course, we cannot say that we can give tacit approval to any and all the activities which threaten our intellectual properties. But on the other hand, it would not be appropriate if we treated people who did something based on affection for Nintendo, as criminals. It is true that some expressions are detrimental enough to diminish the dignity of our intellectual properties, and others destroy our intellectual properties' world-views by connecting them with something not based on fact. We think one of the criteria for deciding how to respond is whether the expression in question socially diminishes the dignity or value of our intellectual properties or not. Of course, it is very hard to have a blanket standard as this problem involves many complex elements that are very difficult to judge.

In these meanings, we cannot say OK to any and all such activities and, at the same time, it is not feasible for us to immediately respond to each small issue of this nature every time. However, these days an individual can easily transmit information through the Internet. Hearing your question today, as we cannot find these problems only by ourselves, we feel that a kind of contact window should be set up so that people can somehow report to us any inappropriate uses of Nintendo's intellectual properties which diminish their dignities or values, so that we can respond appropriately.

[azrael]

Going by the citings in the link you posted, and seriously not trying to go off into a licensing debate tangent, the only copyright for the "story" shown being owned by Tatsunoko is in the U.S. While the Japanese rulings also shown there list Big West/Studio Nue as having the Intellectual property.

If you scroll all the way down to the end of the post, under "Additional Resources", you'll find 2 links there explaining the term "Intellectual property" in terms of the law.

What is Intellectual Property?

Did You Say “Intellectual Property”? It's a Seductive Mirage

And reading Big West's statement over their copyright, you will see that it does not cover the story, only the design works.

[Keith]

If you scroll all the way down to the end of the post, under "Additional Resources", you'll find 2 links there explaining the term "Intellectual property" in terms of the law.

What is Intellectual Property?

Did You Say "Intellectual Property"? It's a Seductive Mirage

And reading Big West's statement over their copyright, you will see that it does not cover the story, only the design works.

Those again are U.S. copyright listings, not Japanese ones. Filing for U.S. copyrights on a Japanese property is dubious at best for Tatsunoko. Again, i'd go with the actual Japanese court rulings, not the U.S. copyright filings.

[Zor Primus]

Man, you're the 2nd Robotech fan in 2 days I've talked with that has expressed to me and others their displeasure with the franchise. I had to wonder what the heck they are doing over there besides coming up with excuses for why they don't do anything. I mean, they didn't even really have anything different or big on the website, unless you count the cut and paste 25 year alpha pic. Who knows, maybe if they've still got the same employees and the same website, they'll draw another picture for the 50 year anniversary??? OK, maybe not, maybe for 30 years?

I understand how you feel as well. Being a fan of it from back in the day, it really does suck to see little to no attention paid to the original series. That said, I really have no interest or even care for anything from the start of the Wildstorm comics on. But as a few will often say here, what type of gripping story do you expect from HG with the staff they have now?

Damn shame...but like it has been pointed out all over this thread, its nothing new from them. At the end of the day its not our job to make this stuff happen and if the "board" or whoever is over the current staff can care less about delivering a truly great product then this will go on forever. Wish my job was so easy going...

[Seto Kaiba]

And reading Big West's statement over their copyright, you will see that it does not cover the story, only the design works.

If, as I'm assuming, you refer to the public statement Big West made on their website way back when, that only refers to the design works because ownership of the design works was the only thing being disputed in that lawsuit. They fought over ownership of the design works and of the copyright on the animation itself, but unless there's another case we don't know about, there's really no evidence that ownership of the story was ever in dispute.

Insofar as who precisely owns the copyright on the story of the original Macross series, don't we already have a concrete answer to that? The story, like most everything else that was created during development of the series, was created before Tatsunoko was brought on board to help fund production of the series. As such, under a common sense examination it should be Big West, not Tatsunoko, who owns the copyright on the Macross story. The copyright listing pulled in the post you linked to looks like the copyright on an English language adaptation or translation rather than full-fledged ownership of the materials. As owners of the distribution rights, Tatsunoko would have had every right to register a copyright on any and all foreign language adaptations and translated versions they produced for overseas distribution.

Those again are U.S. copyright listings, not Japanese ones. Filing for U.S. copyrights on a Japanese property is dubious at best for Tatsunoko. Again, i'd go with the actual Japanese court rulings, not the U.S. copyright filings.

Normally a good idea, though you won't get very far looking for ownership of the story in the Japanese court rulings because, as far as I know, it was never disputed. The wording in the ruling made in 2003 does seem to support what you're saying in that it says that Tatsunoko's production of the animation does not give them any rights to the materials created for the series prior to their involvement.

Damn shame...but like it has been pointed out all over this thread, its nothing new from them. At the end of the day its not our job to make this stuff happen and if the "board" or whoever is over the current staff can care less about delivering a truly great product then this will go on forever. Wish my job was so easy going...

Saying it'll go on forever is probably optimistic... after all, at the rate the Robotech fanbase is decaying, without a blockbuster to unite them and bring new people in, it'll be a dead title or at least a complete unknown within 10 years.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

Insofar as who precisely owns the copyright on the story of the original Macross series, don't we already have a concrete answer to that? The story, like most everything else that was created during development of the series, was created before Tatsunoko was brought on board to help fund production of the series. As such, under a common sense examination it should be Big West, not Tatsunoko, who owns the copyright on the Macross story.

In the links, Big West is listed as the owners of (and rightful owners of) designs. But if Big West owns the story to SDFM, then they should have, in addition to the designs, been able to win over Tatsunoko for that as well and should be the copyright holders for the "story". But they didn't win and are not the copyright holders of that specific material (the story component of SDFM). Tatsunoko was brought in to help produce the show. Big West and Studio Nue took their ideas and designs to Tatsunoko to help them produce it because it cost too much for BW to go at it alone. And on top of that, the series was extended after it started so changes to the story were made to allow for the extension. So Tatsunoko provided the funding for the writers to write the scripts and storyboards, animators to animate the show, audio technicians to dub the soundtrack (dialog and sound SFX). So that is their copyright since they provided the funding to bring the show from an idea to an animated work.

As owners of the distribution rights, Tatsunoko would have had every right to register a copyright on any and all foreign language adaptations and translated versions they produced for overseas distribution.

Which brings me back to my point, if Tatsunoko produced that idea into a tangible work, then they are the copyright holder of that said work, i.e. the animation, written story/narrative, and soundtrack for SDFM. I'll agree that Big West owns the idea of the story behind SDFM. But there's a problem, you cannot copyright an idea (see link). You can copyright a written outline of that idea, but unless you enter into a confidentiality agreement over that outline, there's nothing to prevent another party from using that idea.(see link)

[taksraven]

Thanks for the copyright FAQ link, but I found this one in the FAQ to be much more important and relevant to me....

How do I protect my sighting of Elvis?

Copyright law does not protect sightings. However, copyright law will protect your photo (or other depiction) of your sighting of Elvis. File your claim to copyright online by means of the electronic Copyright Office (eCO). Pay the fee online and attach a copy of your photo. Or, go to the Copyright Office website, fill in Form CO, print it, and mail it together with your photo and fee. For more information on registration a copyright, see SL-35. No one can lawfully use your photo of your sighting, although someone else may file his own photo of his sighting. Copyright law protects the original photograph, not the subject of the photograph.

Edited July 14, 2010 by taksraven

[Keith]

I don't want to sound like a broken record here, but again, the only place we've seen Tatsunoko claim story copyright ownership is here in the U.S. If in fact they had full story ownership in Japan as well, they'd be able to pwn Big West & Studio Nue over derivative sequals, which they obviously hae not.

Might I also point over two obvious examples of Tatsunoko "not" owning the Macross story (in addition to not owning the designs), i.e. "The Sentinels" & "The Shadow Chronicles." Both HG produced & Tatsunono "ok" Robotech sequals danced around the Macross issue like the source material was a plague. The Shadow Chronicles especially, with vague references to "aliens," and all backstory referring to Mospeada alone (which Tatsunoko hands down owns). Even the making of documentary made leaps to "not" mention Macross story or characters.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Keith