HG and Robotech Debates

[taksraven]

Without dropping the F-bomb,(tempting as it may be), are there any witty guesses as to what the "F" in Carl F. Macek stood for?

Taksraven

[Ginrai]

Mike Leeke was the penciller throughout most of the Macross Saga, I believe. Carl Macek's wife Svea also did some of the issues. I'm not sure who the inkers were.

Svea did the art for the very first issue. It was just called Macross #1 and was actually painted instead of colored traditionally. This was before Robotech so it just said Macross on the cover, the whole Japanese logo.

[Gubaba]

Svea did the art for the very first issue. It was just called Macross #1 and was actually painted instead of colored traditionally. This was before Robotech so it just said Macross on the cover, the whole Japanese logo.

Huh...I thought she did some of the other issues as well... I stopped collecting all the comics at issue #6, although I saw some random pages later (obviously, since I posted pics from them...).

But yeah...I had Macross #1 (paid $15 for it back in the day...which was A FORTUNE for a comic book for me, since I was 11). For a while, I actually thought that "Rick Yamata" and "Lisa Hayase" were the authentic Japanese names (there was also the strange pronunciation of "Gerwalk" and "Jer-walk," but that's another story...).

[Seto Kaiba]

Don't you know? "VS" contests are how they measure their...*<insert NSFW content>*. That's how the interwebs work.

Oh ho... so it's an extension of the usual penis fixation most of Robotech's most vocal defenders seem to have. That explains rather more than I think I wanted to know.

Nah, I think it's just a bit of harmless fun. We all know Rick Hunter's gonna win, though...

Doing that sort of thing as a bit of harmless fun is all well and good, but is this all they can think of to commemorate the 25th anniversary? Pretty much nothing from Harmony Gold as far as the 25th anniversary... and the fans seem to be emulating their example. About all they've done is a handful of "anniversary edition" podcasts, the majority of which are either just synopses of various parts of the story, or attempts to kiss Tommy Yune's ass and badmouth people. No fan art. No websites. No fan films (though that may be Harmony Gold's fault). There's a definite feeling of anticlimax and failure hanging around the subject of the Robotech anniversary.

[Jasonc]

even the freakin' comics had that awful narration

also what's with all the old skool anime fans wearing their support of Carl Macek like a badge

You know, that pic makes Minmay look like an 18th St cholita down at the hood mall, waiting to take her glamour shots, with "Rascal" giving the big thumbs up in the background. If Minmay looked like that, I could totally understand why she lost out to Lisa.

[VF5SS]

Oh yeah...it's great. Mikimoto who?

is that dialog all accurate to the show

because goddamn did they talk way too much

[Seto Kaiba]

is that dialog all accurate to the show

because goddamn did they talk way too much

Eh... it's been ages since I've bothered to put in a Robotech DVD and give myself a proper "shitsux" headache, but it's probably close enough to the actual narration found in the show to pass muster. Robotech's narrator was a chatty little bastard, that's for sure.

[Moly_Sigang]

Doing that sort of thing as a bit of harmless fun is all well and good, but is this all they can think of to commemorate the 25th anniversary? Pretty much nothing from Harmony Gold as far as the 25th anniversary... and the fans seem to be emulating their example. About all they've done is a handful of "anniversary edition" podcasts, the majority of which are either just synopses of various parts of the story, or attempts to kiss Tommy Yune's ass and badmouth people. No fan art. No websites. No fan films (though that may be Harmony Gold's fault). There's a definite feeling of anticlimax and failure hanging around the subject of the Robotech anniversary.

I always thought by now they'd at least update their website also. But no, HG has to be as cheapskate as possible.

[Seto Kaiba]

I always thought by now they'd at least update their website also. But no, HG has to be as cheapskate as possible.

Oh, indeed... this is one of many subjects I've discussed with the Harmony Gold employees responsible and come away wondering if, instead of doing a piss-poor job of keeping their franchise afloat, they're doing an incredibly poor job of running it into the ground. As I've been informed by no less a person that Kevin McKeever himself, the reason that they don't update their website is that every single news piece to be posted on the site needs to go through an approval process (presumably involving the company lawyer at some point) before it can be posted. Any proposal to actually improve the content or features on the website itself is immediately vetoed by senior management, who see the site solely as a means to facilitate sales in the store and regard anything Robotech-related which doesn't directly earn profit as a waste. Many suspect that the only reason Harmony Gold sprang for a new server for Robotech.com a few years back was because the old one'd been so far out of its depth that it was starting to affect the point-of-sale system that the store used.

[Moly_Sigang]

Here's one question that's been bothering me; is the SDF-2 still considered canonical in Robotech? I mean, it's a phantom ship that was awkwardly put in as a plot device. Aside from the short blurb about it listing, there's no other indication to it's existence. So does it really exist?

Edited June 17, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[VF5SS]

Robotech's narrator was a chatty little bastard, that's for sure.

i don't mean just the narrator, even Rock Huntear has to give a monologue about his freakin' gloves

[Dynaman]

i don't mean just the narrator, even Rock Huntear has to give a monologue about his freakin' gloves

There is a lot more dialog in some scenes, there is one scene in particular - when Rick is on the SDF-1 and Claudia comes up to talk with him about Lisa (shortly before the big battle episode) there is a LOT of internal monologe for Rick, for Macross it ends up being a shot with no dialog, just Hikaru staring out into space.

Here's one question that's been bothering me; is the SDF-2 still considered canonical in Robotech? I mean, it's a phantom ship that was awkwardly put in as a plot device. Aside from the short blurb about it listing, there's no other indication to it's existence. So does it really exist?

Don't got there! I'm serious. Silly arguments about this kind of thing fill up page after page after page over at RT.com.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Dynaman

[Wanzerfan]

Mike Leeke was the penciller throughout most of the Macross Saga, I believe. Carl Macek's wife Svea also did some of the issues. I'm not sure who the inkers were.

I said the quality went up a notch, not to the point where it blew me away. The artwork really improved when Mike Chen joined the art crew for the Macross Saga comic line. The characters actually started to look like thier animated versions. Edited June 17, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[nexxstrait]

Robotech has HUGE amounts of dialogue added in, not only through the narrator. When in the original show you had only silence (or music + images to depict a scene), in Robotech many characters "think" during these moments, or (for example when they run or do some action) describe what they are doing. It's interesting to note that the promo tape "Macross" edited by Macek, which had to be a "faithful adaptation" (his words) of the japanese show into american language before Robotech came to life, already sported these inserts. Here's an example

Macross TV (japanese)

[no dialogue]

Macross Tape (americand ub)

Blasting through a warp fold from deep space, a vast armada of gigantic alien battleships is making its way gigantic through the Solar system in search of a damaged enemy spaceship which had retreated from battle.

Robotech

Blasting through a warp fold in deep space, a gigantic alien spaceship enters Earth Solar system in pursue of the damaged Robotech vessel which has eluded capture by slipping through the time space continuum. The command ship leads a vast armada of battle vessels manned by the Zentraedi, a race of warriors bred for thousands of generations for the sole purpose of military conquest.

Talk about "spoiler alert"

Edited June 17, 2010 by nexxstrait

[Funkenstein]

It makes you wonder if these guys ever saw a Wile E Coyote short, or Tom & Jerry. Im sure Macek would have loved the Tom & Jerry movie though.

[macross_fan99]

Adding audio is something that is done a lot. I've seen many shows and movies where the Japanese version has no speech since it is meant to be a scene where the image is supposed to tell the story and let the viewer fill in the blanks but they always add audio.

These shows are always aimed at kids and kids don't really get the whole silent scene moment so they have to add speech to keep them interested. Can you imagine trying to get a young kid to watch a silent movie?

[Keith]

Adding audio is something that is done a lot. I've seen many shows and movies where the Japanese version has no speech since it is meant to be a scene where the image is supposed to tell the story and let the viewer fill in the blanks but they always add audio.

These shows are always aimed at kids and kids don't really get the whole silent scene moment so they have to add speech to keep them interested. Can you imagine trying to get a young kid to watch a silent movie?

Supposition at best. If that were true, Wall-E would have been a box office flop.

[j_wong00]

Supposition at best. If that were true, Wall-E would have been a box office flop.

As much as I'd hate to argue this, I have admit that Wall-E's animation and story techniques gave us more facial expression and body language.

Something 80's anime/cartoons didn't have.

[Dynaman]

These shows are always aimed at kids and kids don't really get the whole silent scene moment so they have to add speech to keep them interested. Can you imagine trying to get a young kid to watch a silent movie?

I have to disagree as well, I've noticed that the Japanese let the visuals tell the story to a much greater degree then in the US. American Comics (or Graphic Novels which are geared toward an older audience) have much more dialog then a Japanese one would. Same holds true for live action movies.

[j_wong00]

I have to disagree as well, I've noticed that the Japanese let the visuals tell the story to a much greater degree then in the US. American Comics (or Graphic Novels which are geared toward an older audience) have much more dialog then a Japanese one would. Same holds true for live action movies.

Seems US forgets the old adage "Show, don't tell".

[Sergorn]

Yeah they often add more dialogue and narration in US dubs... because whoever decide Kids programming seems think Kids are just dumb and wouldn't understand anything without that. This is actually true about voice acting as well - a lot of cartoon aimed at kid feels like they're 'dubbed' as if the watcher was slow and stupid and need to have everything carefully laid out and spoken like a school teacher because you know kids are too dumb and wouldn't understand otherwise.

Except that actually, kids are not dumb.

-Sergorn

[Gubaba]

Yeah they often add more dialogue and narration in US dubs... because whoever decide Kids programming seems think Kids are just dumb and wouldn't understand anything without that. This is actually true about voice acting as well - a lot of cartoon aimed at kid feels like they're 'dubbed' as if the watcher was slow and stupid and need to have everything carefully laid out and spoken like a school teacher because you know kids are too dumb and wouldn't understand otherwise.

Except that actually, kids are not dumb.

-Sergorn

Even as a kid, I thought it was weird that Batman would be falling or whatever, and would take the time to say, "If I don't get the grappling hook out of my utility belt and catch that craggy outcropping in the next two seconds, I'm finished!" Why not just DO it, man?

[jenius]

It may not be so much about the intelligence of the viewer but also the culture. It may be more a western cultural philosophy to try to interact more with the viewer (especially in children's programming). This might not be from the presumption of stupidity but rather from the fear that a child will wander to the next channel or form of entertainment if they aren't being constantly engaged. You might say that western producers feel that western audiences have a shorter attention span so a narrator spoon-feeding the plot to the viewer has the dual benefit of interacting with the viewer and simplifying the events.

[RDClip]

Adding audio is something that is done a lot. I've seen many shows and movies where the Japanese version has no speech since it is meant to be a scene where the image is supposed to tell the story and let the viewer fill in the blanks but they always add audio.

These shows are always aimed at kids and kids don't really get the whole silent scene moment so they have to add speech to keep them interested. Can you imagine trying to get a young kid to watch a silent movie?

The original Macross was made for kids in Japan, you know. Heck almost all TV anime in the 80's was made for kids. The adult anime was just in Movie form (then later in OVAs) until like the mid-90s.

Edited June 17, 2010 by RDClip

[Sergorn]

You might say that western producers feel that western audiences have a shorter attention span so a narrator spoon-feeding the plot to the viewer has the dual benefit of interacting with the viewer and simplifying the events.

Yeah well I'd argue western producers havea view that is both wrong of stupid. We had plenty of (often poorly) dubbed anime in France without any extra added narration or stupid thing like that and we watched them. A lot.

American cartoon though, now those were boring

-Sergorn

Edited June 17, 2010 by Sergorn

[Seto Kaiba]

Here's one question that's been bothering me; is the SDF-2 still considered canonical in Robotech? I mean, it's a phantom ship that was awkwardly put in as a plot device. Aside from the short blurb about it listing, there's no other indication to it's existence. So does it really exist?

Despite all of the obvious contradictions in the dialogue that establishes its existence, Harmony Gold maintains that the SDF-2 does exist in Robotech. They handwave aside all of the contradictory theories and Comico's nonsensical depiction of a second ship in the lake standing back to back with the SDF-1 with an explanation that boils down to "We don't know either... but that poo's still official".

i don't mean just the narrator, even Rock Huntear has to give a monologue about his freakin' gloves

Oh, no... that internal monologue about his gloves is entirely the work of the comic's author(s). After all, there's no such thing as a faithful adaptation of Robotech out there. Every author who's ever gotten their hands on a pre-existing Robotech title has had a bizarre compulsion to present how they would've done it rather than how it actually happened in the series.

[Einherjar]

All that's missing is a drawn out inner monologue on existentialism.

The idea to adapt it to novel form probably justified a lot of the excessive talking and explanation. It's cheaper than actually showing action sequences since you can rely on various generalizations to describe epic space and ground combat. Fluff.

Unfortunately, that's what I've been feeling from the read excerpts from the Protoculture Times, but it's a million times better and more convincing than Microsoft Sam doing it.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Einherjar

[nexxstrait]

It may not be so much about the intelligence of the viewer but also the culture. It may be more a western cultural philosophy to try to interact more with the viewer (especially in children's programming). This might not be from the presumption of stupidity but rather from the fear that a child will wander to the next channel or form of entertainment if they aren't being constantly engaged. You might say that western producers feel that western audiences have a shorter attention span so a narrator spoon-feeding the plot to the viewer has the dual benefit of interacting with the viewer and simplifying the events.

I had a very interesting chat with Gregory Snegoff some years ago (Kyron's and Scott Bernard's voice actor but also script editor for Robotech) about this very topic and he confirmed what you just said. At the time, these were the concerns of producers and film/cartoon/tv programmes makers. The only thing is that they were not applying this "scheme" to kids only, he clearly stated that "Western audience (in that case American audience)" in general had to be always kept interested lest it could simply change channel and watch something else. He talked about cultural differences that had to be changed to appeal to the culture of the viewer. He also stated that nowadays, the general public being more aware of other cultures, that "scheme" souldn't be necessary anymore. It's all a matter of catching the widest audience that dictates certain choices, in the end.

[derex3592]

Gregory Snegoff's two Robotech characters were always my 2 favorites. I really loved the way he did those 2 voices. Khyron was so "mean" sounding!

[VF5SS]

he sounded like an old guy

kamjin is not an old guy

[Einherjar]

Hmm, these days, doesn't Khyron almost sound like Liquid Snake?

It must be the British-like accent I hear from him.

[TheLoneWolf]

he sounded like an old guy

kamjin is not an old guy

Yuuichi Meguro provided the voice for Kamjin, not Greg Snegoff.

[HappyPenguins]

Gregory Snegoff's two Robotech characters were always my 2 favorites. I really loved the way he did those 2 voices. Khyron was so "mean" sounding!

yes, although I think those voices of his were sexy

[Captain of the SDF-1 Macross]

Hmm, these days, doesn't Khyron almost sound like Liquid Snake?

It must be the British-like accent I hear from him.

Actually, Liquid Snake is voiced by another Robotech voice actor named Cam Clarke (listed as alias Jimmy Flinders in the RT end credits). He played as Max Sterling and Lancer on the show.

He and RT voice performer Iona Morris (Claudia Grant in the RT dub) are the only voice actors who appeared in voice roles other than anime and video game dubs.

TV viewers may remember Cam Clarke's performances as Leonardo in the 1980s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and as He-Man in the 2002 version of Masters of the Universe show.

he sounded like an old guy

kamjin is not an old guy

The same could be said in dubbing Stick Bernard's voice to sound like a 40-year old in a 18-year old body.

[nexxstrait]

Hmm, these days, doesn't Khyron almost sound like Liquid Snake?

It must be the British-like accent I hear from him.

as Snegoff told me, he was trying to imitate a british actor that portrayed Captain Blight (from Bounty) in an old movie. I don't know who he was talking about and he didn't remember the exact name but that's where the Kyron' accent comes from.

Edited June 18, 2010 by nexxstrait