HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

I'll chime in. I like Robotech - there, I said it! But I like Robotech from back in the day. I enjoyed the Comico comics and the Jack McKinney novels. I thought the show was alright. I didn't really like a lot of the voice acting, but I was entertained. No matter what anyone says, it still had a better story line than a LOT of what was out back then. Have you guys gone back and WATCHED the G1 Transformers??? I think that the novels were pretty good and well thought out. To me, they are what's cannon for "Robotech". I feel that the show and the comics are a simple & dumbed down version. Take them for what they are, simplistic entertainment.

That being said, HG retconning the whole continuity since just before Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles was released really pissed me off. Why put in the effort to do that? The source material was there already! It's like they're going to great lengths to further separate Robotech from Macross but in the process have George Lucas'd the whole effing thing! Where are some production samples from Shadow Rising? Lets see some pre-production art for the LAM? You'd think that they'd WANT to generate a buzz for these projects by giving the fans & the general public a few glimpses into their progress, but NO!

Like a lot of other things in life, it's becoming a big let down.

Here I'll reply on a more seriuos note. I basically take the view of this post - although I never saw Robotech as a kid, I read the novels and played the RPG.

What's interesting here though is the question posed - the comparison of Robotech to G1 Transformers.

As bad as Robotech is...I have to admit that it does have a better story than Transformers. The G1 cartoon was lots of fun, but it was hampered by always returning to the status quo, having no memorable human characters (because Spike and Sparkplug were more along the line of human stereotypes), and it's pretty certain that the plot doesn't have momentum within the span of each season.

That is to say - nothing inside any particular season ever changed things and none of the characters ever developed. Optimus Prime was the same character by the last episode of season 1 that he had been in the beginning.

The plot-shift really only took place once - with Transformers the Movie - but because of that it was sort of a hack job - all of the new characters which replaced the old ones didn't so much come into being through episode after episode of development - but just were tossed in haphazardly...

Transformers just had better toys than Robotech - far faaar better toys. In fact, it had such a great toy marketing advantage that it even managed to bring over the VF-1 as Jetfire.

I'm not trying to knock Transformers as such - I'm a big G1 Fan actually. But sure - if you're asking me to compare it to Robotech - not even to Macross - just to Robotech. Read any of the Robtech novels, or just watch Robotech - it's better as a story than Transformers.

Pete

[Dynaman]

On the five year fold problem and why it does not match the fold "speed" of other vessels, it's been a while since I read the novels but I thought that there was something wrong with the SDF-3 fold system which caused the 5 year span. Normally it would have been a much shorter time.

[Gubaba]

What doesn't make sense? His name in Macross is Roy Focker (pronounced "Fawker"). His name in Robotech is different, it's Roy Fokker (pronounced Foe-ker). It's not that his name in Robotech is mispronounced, it's a different name just like Hikaru Ichijo is not Rick Hunter.

No, his name in both Macross AND Robotech is pronounced Foe-ker. For some reason, the creators decided to spell his name wit a "ck." It's like how :Glaug" is the official spelling, but it's pronounced "Glahj."

[jenius]

Could sworn it sounded like a Faw-ker to me but that could just be my knowing how the name was spelled and hearing what I expected (in a Japanese accent no less). The point remains the same, Robotech is allowed to have different names and different pronounciation of names because it's an adaptation, not an attempt at a faithful translation.

[Jasonc]

I'm pretty sure it's always been pronounced (Foe-ker) in both series. Is this really a debate?

[HappyPenguins]

I'm pretty sure it's always been pronounced (Foe-ker) in both series. Is this really a debate?

lol no it's not

[Einherjar]

On the five year fold problem and why it does not match the fold "speed" of other vessels, it's been a while since I read the novels but I thought that there was something wrong with the SDF-3 fold system which caused the 5 year span. Normally it would have been a much shorter time.

You would think that they would've fixed problems like that ever since the mis-fold to Pluto 10 years prior and the mass production of ships ever since with the same abilities. Just like everything driven by Protoculture or bartered by aliens, it was a very costly, but acceptable, liability.

[Jasonc]

lol no it's not

Hahaha, that's what I thought, it was just such an in depth discussion. One of my friends though, who isn't really a fan of any of this, used to have the RoyFocker screen name for Playstation 2's SOCOM US Navy Seals when we had are REF clan. He used to love yelling over the head set FOCKER!!! (Faw-ker). We always got a good laugh at it.

[Dynaman]

You would think that they would've fixed problems like that ever since the mis-fold to Pluto 10 years prior and the mass production of ships ever since with the same abilities.

In the novels the SDF-3 was the only fold capable ship they had made up till that point, after they got to (whatever the heck the name of the RT masters homeworld was) they started producing other fold capable starships, powered by Protoculture peat moss if I remember correctly.

The trip to Pluto was short enough that the time dilation problem with the SDF-1 engine was not noticed. Although in the novels no mention is made of it. With RT continuity (such as it is) lord only knows what actually happened - and it doesn't really matter since the next show to come (if any) will just retcon the whole thing again anyway.

[Wanzerfan]

That's actually a semi-logical interpolation out from Macross' fold data.

Remember, this is before Frontier and fold faults and all that. Time for people IN the fold goes slower than time for people OUTSIDE the fold, and the lag is fairly constant, such that L/Misa could accurately predict how much time had passed back home just by knowing how long they'd been in fold space. And they lost over a week of time without being gone long enough to start getting really hungry. That implies a pretty strong lag.

If a week passes for every day in fold space, then after a week in fold space, 49 days have passed in real space. A 30-day month in fold space is 210 days real time.

Since we don't know how FAST anyone actually goes in fold space(especially in Robotech, with it's much smaller sample of uselessly incomplete data)... it's hard to guess what sort of fold times are reasonable, though. Robotech just picked numbers that worked for their extended setting.

ON THE OTHER HAND... if the Robotech Masters live in our galaxy, then wherever the factory satellite and zentradi main fleet were stationed had to be quite close to Earth or travel times would be ridiculous. Assuming a constant multiplier and single long fold, the roughly 14-real-year trip the Robotech Masters took would've taken 2 years in fold space.

It is probably best to assume they made several short hops, with large waits between them.

It's also worth noting that the Robotech novels introduced the idea that fold space had it's own "geography" and what parts of it you went through would greatly affect how long it took to get there many years before Frontier did it.

ADMITTEDLY this was only done to justify the SDF-3 not showing up with the first assault in New Generation. They got lost in fold space and it took several months for them to catch up to the rest of the fleet.

But the point remains... Macross Frontier ripped off Robotech.

I think the term you're looking for is time dialation differential. One of the Star Trek novels (I think it was The Romulan Way, I'm not sure) describes this phenomenon works in regards to their Warp Drives. Those drives actually tunnel into another universe where the speed of light is actually faster than that in the normal universe and wrap the ship in particles from that universe. Maybe Hyperspace in Robotech works on the same principle, haveing a faster speed of light than that of normal space.

You would think that they would've fixed problems like that ever since the mis-fold to Pluto 10 years prior and the mass production of ships ever since with the same abilities. Just like everything driven by Protoculture or bartered by aliens, it was a very costly, but acceptable, liability.

It also didn't help matters any when Gloval (Global) ordered a hyperspace fold jump so deep within Earth's gravity well it's unbelieveable, 2,000 feet in Robotech. I don't know what the altitulde was in Macross (most likely 20 klicks; Gubaba might know the actual altitude for sure). The gravity waves must've played holy hell on the fold drive system. Edited June 14, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[Seto Kaiba]

As bad as Robotech is...I have to admit that it does have a better story than Transformers.

But not by design... which is, I think, rather more important than that Robotech's "original" TV series had slightly more narrative depth than the teaspoon-shallow story of Transformers Generation 1.

In the final analysis, both shows were little more than a means of pushing a toy line on the parents of the viewers. Robotech was an attempt on Harmony Gold's part to ape the market model that Transformers was using to make frankly embarrassing amounts of money. Macek's pet project was doomed from the get-go by the generally low quality of its toy line and the fact that only the first 1/3 of the show was actually watchable. It could be argued that Robotech had the superior quality story, but then it must be pointed out that was not the doing of the show's (re)writers, but rather the quality of the original shows they cannibalized to make Robotech. Once the elements of the "Robotech story" that aren't derived from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada are forced to stand alone (e.g. Robotech II: the Sentinels, Robotech 3000), what you have left is a revolting mess that even Robotech fans are usually quick to disown as a hideous mess unfit for human consumption.

On the five year fold problem and why it does not match the fold "speed" of other vessels, it's been a while since I read the novels but I thought that there was something wrong with the SDF-3 fold system which caused the 5 year span. Normally it would have been a much shorter time.

Not on the trip out... on the trip BACK there was plenty wrong with it. As soon as they got to Tirol it was damaged beyond repair, and then by pure shenanigans they recovered the SDF-1's fold drive and used that, which helped create the stable time loop that had Minmei as the mother of Zor.

You would think that they would've fixed problems like that ever since the mis-fold to Pluto 10 years prior and the mass production of ships ever since with the same abilities. Just like everything driven by Protoculture or bartered by aliens, it was a very costly, but acceptable, liability.

Well, the whole "Five Year Fold" thing was something Luceno and Daley came up with to explain why the REF forces never made it back to help the population of Earth when the Robotech Masters invaded, among other things. The current official continuity's answer for it is that the human ships were using salvaged fold engines taken from wrecked or captured alien ships, which were usually not of the best quality or in the best shape. The salvaged drives were inefficient and unreliable, making interstellar travel a real pain in the ass until near the end of the 3rd Robotech War, when humanity's alliances with the Haydonites and Kabarrans gave them the ability to produce new, more reliable fold engines of their own... making fuel consumption the only real limitation on their operation.

(Kind of a big limit, when you think about it... considering that the REF had ONE AND ONLY ONE means of producing more, and that it proceeded to get missing before the war's end)

[VF5SS]

I'll chime in. I like Robotech - there, I said it!

Daily affirmations with RT fans.

because you're good enough, smart enough, and gosh darnit... people like crappy stuff

[JB0]

I think the term you're looking for is time dialation differential.

Maybe.

It's also possible fold space has no time dilation effect, and time flows at a constant speed in a fold.

Or that the dilation effect is meaningless because there's a constant rate of travel in fold space(ignoring Frontier's fold faults, which I still don't like *grrr*).

Lacking any knowledge of how dilation plays into it, I'll just call it a different rate of time passage.

One of the Star Trek novels (I think it was The Romulan Way, I'm not sure) describes this phenomenon works in regards to their Warp Drives. Those drives actually tunnel into another universe where the speed of light is actually faster than that in the normal universe and wrap the ship in particles from that universe.

Yeah. Subspace is Star Trek's hyperspace, just like fold space is Macross' hyperspace.

Different names, slightly different implementations, but the same basic concept: using another universe with a different set of rules to cheat at relativity.

Maybe Hyperspace in Robotech works on the same principle, haveing a faster speed of light than that of normal space.

That's pretty much a given for any FTL tech that uses an alternate universe.

Very rarely you get one where the other universe isn't "put together" the same way as our own(if you go in, travel in a straight line, and come back out, you won't come back out in a straight line from where you went in) , but most of the time the goal is to avoid our universe's 1c "speed limit."

[Seto Kaiba]

I think the term you're looking for is time dialation differential.

Probably not... since neither Robotech nor Macross has ever ascribed any kind of time dilation effect to fold travel. In Macross, (and, if memory serves, Robotech as well) the disparity between the experienced time during a fold jump and the actual time that passes in normal space is the result of time flowing at a much slower pace in the sub-universe the drive manipulates to circumvent the vast distances that would normally be involved in interstellar travel. The differential is reasonably consistent in Macross, but varies from nonexistent to absurd (1/525949) in the various Robotech adaptatons.

One of the Star Trek novels (I think it was The Romulan Way, I'm not sure) describes this phenomenon works in regards to their Warp Drives. Those drives actually tunnel into another universe where the speed of light is actually faster than that in the normal universe and wrap the ship in particles from that universe.

... and now you know why the Star Trek franchise has long since declared all of its expanded universe materials non-canon... for the exact same reason Robotech did: the "Expanded Universe" materials are a confused mess written by people who didn't seem to know (or care to know) much about the original work. This is actually nowhere close to the canon explanation of how warp drive (and, for that matter, its real-world theoretical version, the Alcubierre drive) functions. Both concepts actually involve exploiting a loophole in general relativity to circumvent the rule that objects cannot move through space faster than the speed of light by distorting the fabric of space (which isn't bound by the same rules) to move a bubble of space around the ship through space at faster-than-light speeds.

It's also possible fold space has no time dilation effect, and time flows at a constant speed in a fold.

Which is unambiguously true in Macross, and very probably the case in Robotech as well. Of course, the most recent depiction completely does away with shortcutting through a sub-universe and behaves very much like the above-described warp (Alcubierre) drive, with a bubble forming around the ship that moves through space at superluminal velocities while remaining in normal space. Even the visual effect from inside the ship is more or less identical to Star Trek's warp drive.

Edited June 15, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

... and now you know why the Star Trek franchise has long since declared all of its expanded universe materials non-canon... for the exact same reason Robotech did: the "Expanded Universe" materials are a confused mess written by people who didn't seem to know (or care to know) much about the original work. This is actually nowhere close to the canon explanation of how warp drive (and, for that matter, its real-world theoretical version, the Alcubierre drive) functions. Both concepts actually involve exploiting a loophole in general relativity to circumvent the rule that objects cannot move through space faster than the speed of light by distorting the fabric of space (which isn't bound by the same rules) to move a bubble of space around the ship through space at faster-than-light speeds.

Actually, while that was the original intent, it didn't even survive the original TV series without getting the "subspace field" explanation dumped on it.

Next Generation even had an entire plot around the boundary between regular space and subspace wearing down from high-warp travel, resulting in a warp "speed limit" put in place across the federation to reduce damage to the boundary.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually, while that was the original intent, it didn't even survive the original TV series without getting the "subspace field" explanation dumped on it.

Yeah, I know... the whole "subspace field" thing is a macguffin added to warp drive as a means of helping viewers who didn't major in physics understand how the technology works, and sidestepping the question of how to maintain a bubble of normalized space to contain the ship and generate the forces necessary to distort the fabric of space and move that bubble at superluminal velocities... something modern science still hasn't quite figured out how to carry off.

Of course, exactly how the "fold bubble" malarkey in Robotech's "original" series, novels, and comics works is anybody's guess. The explanation for the version seen in the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie is Star Trek's warp drive in all but name... with the only appreciable difference being the use of "fold bubble" in place of "subspace field" or "warp field".

(The relevant data can be obtained on page 40 of the Shadow Chronicles artbook)

[Einherjar]

Well, the whole "Five Year Fold" thing was something Luceno and Daley came up with to explain why the REF forces never made it back to help the population of Earth when the Robotech Masters invaded, among other things. The current official continuity's answer for it is that the human ships were using salvaged fold engines taken from wrecked or captured alien ships, which were usually not of the best quality or in the best shape. The salvaged drives were inefficient and unreliable, making interstellar travel a real pain in the ass until near the end of the 3rd Robotech War, when humanity's alliances with the Haydonites and Kabarrans gave them the ability to produce new, more reliable fold engines of their own... making fuel consumption the only real limitation on their operation.

(Kind of a big limit, when you think about it... considering that the REF had ONE AND ONLY ONE means of producing more, and that it proceeded to get missing before the war's end)

Hmm, so that's why humanity kept getting pawned and never moved beyond the Sol system, or more specifically Earth, Mars, and (probably) various unspecified outposts with no civilian population.

[Gubaba]

Robotech or no, this is too damn awesome NOT to participate in:

http://robotech-character-clash.blogspot.com/

[chrisk]

In case you're not basking in the awesomeness that is Robotech's 25th anniversary, why not pick up the latest and greatest version of Prelude of the Shadow Chronicles?

Bill Sherman, veteran review of blogcritics had this to say about Yune's latest and possibly last masterpiece:

To aid newbies and more casual readers, the collection opens with a two-page Timeline spanning 1999-2038 plus an Introduction to the Robotech Universe, though it wasn't all that helpful to this reader.

Even with a heartbreaking tragedy in his past, stalwart Rick Hunter pretty much comes across as a stiff.

I’m betting most of the hard-core Robotechies will be satisfied — even if the rest of us aren't.

So in conclusion folks, Prelude is an un-salvageable mess and it only appeals to people who already owned the original issues. The rest of you STAY AWAY.

http://blogcritics.org/books/article/graphic-novel-review-robotech-prelude-to/

And that's your Robotech 25th anniversary news bit for the day!

[HappyPenguins]

So in conclusion folks, Prelude is an un-salvageable mess and it only appeals to people who already owned the original issues. The rest of you STAY AWAY.

http://blogcritics.org/books/article/graphic-novel-review-robotech-prelude-to/

And that's your Robotech 25th anniversary news bit for the day!

I wouldn't touch it to burn it

prelude has always been crap, I'll stick to the older comics thank you very much... and yes -sigh- even the comico ones

[Seto Kaiba]

Hmm, so that's why humanity kept getting pawned and never moved beyond the Sol system, or more specifically Earth, Mars, and (probably) various unspecified outposts with no civilian population.

Seems that way, yeah... though it is worth noting that one of the most imbecilic retcons found in Tommy Yune's rebooted Robotech continuity was his decision to change the neutron-s missiles from purpose-built weapons of mass destruction to a hastily-converted series of colony ships the UEEF repurposed as an ad-hoc delivery system for the neutron star matter warheads. Except for one ship, all of the incomplete spaceframes for the new class of colony ships that would've replaced them were lost when Vince Grant detonated Space Station Liberty's entire stockpile of neutron star matter warheads. Since all they did was get their asses kicked over and over again, it doesn't look like the inadequate fold drives they had access to were that much of a hindrance to them, since they only rarely got a chance to use them.

Robotech or no, this is too damn awesome NOT to participate in:

Under normal circumstances, I'd be thrilled to see the sane members of Robotech's fanbase doing SOMETHING other than trying desperately to convince each other this latest example of Tommy Yune's staggering incompetence proves the franchise is still viable... but seriously, another "VS" contest? Is this really all they have left? Are they honestly so short of things to talk about that their attempts to commemorate the show's 25th anniversary have to include the same sort of hypothetical fight threads which now comprise roughly half of Robotech.com's rapidly dwindling activity? This is no reason to get excited... watching them scrabble around for something to talk about besides fandom drama is just depressing.

In case you're not basking in the awesomeness that is Robotech's 25th anniversary, why not pick up the latest and greatest version of Prelude of the Shadow Chronicles?

For the same reason that a person interested in basking in the "awesomeness" of urban decay doesn't go out and bring home a case of syphilis... nothing good could possibly come of it.

Bill Sherman, veteran review of blogcritics had this to say about Yune's latest and possibly last masterpiece:

"possibly last"?! I didn't see anything in there about that...

So in conclusion folks, Prelude is an un-salvageable mess and it only appeals to people who already owned the original issues. The rest of you STAY AWAY.

Tell me... when has any Robotech sequel or product appealed to anyone who wasn't already a die-hard Robotech fan? Of course Tommy Yune WANTS to use his story to bring in new fans, but his work has always ultimately been stuff targeted to people who were already fans by an author who is a fan himself... and a fan OF himself for that matter. In true Robotech form, Prelude has no originality... no subtlety... no pacing... no characterization... nothing for anyone who whose expectations were higher than "something with the Robotech name on it that I don't already own".

[Dynaman]

even the comico ones

I'll be the first to admit that early comico comics were terrible, but the later ones were very good (Macross Saga that is, I couldn't be bothered to pick up any others - and that sadly makes me part of a trend)

(another caveat - "guest artist" comics were terrible)

[VF5SS]

even the freakin' comics had that awful narration

also what's with all the old skool anime fans wearing their support of Carl Macek like a badge

[chrisk]

Could someone pitch a rerelease of this to Tommy?

http://i28.tinypic.com/2d1o97a.jpg

[Funkenstein]

even the freakin' comics had that awful narration

also what's with all the old skool anime fans wearing their support of Carl Macek like a badge

Wow, what big Fish Eyes you have Minmay!

[Wanzerfan]

I'll be the first to admit that early comico comics were terrible, but the later ones were very good (Macross Saga that is, I couldn't be bothered to pick up any others - and that sadly makes me part of a trend)

(another caveat - "guest artist" comics were terrible)

Agreed. The early comics were terribly illustrated, but once Comico got some decent talent (around Macross issue 15 or so) the quality went up a notch. Edited June 16, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[Einherjar]

also what's with all the old skool anime fans wearing their support of Carl Macek like a badge

I agree, it's strange even for nostalgia. He basically manipulated his way into people's hearts, yet he's propped up as the guy who helped jump start an industry. And then they completely ignore all the stuff he did before and after Robotech, especially when Robotech never had an ending outside of a shunned novel. It wouldn't be an issue if the stuff he's identified with didn't exist at least 2 years prior in another language made by different people. Plus, there's the real talented people who continue to get screwed from his work or the consequences of his work.

It's all a blatant @ss pull to get to your wallet people.

Also, that youtube video from his funeral is very, very creepy for something that has nothing to do with Robotech. WTF?

Edited June 16, 2010 by Einherjar

[azrael]

... but seriously, another "VS" contest? Is this really all they have left? Are they honestly so short of things to talk about that their attempts to commemorate the show's 25th anniversary have to include the same sort of hypothetical fight threads which now comprise roughly half of Robotech.com's rapidly dwindling activity? This is no reason to get excited... watching them scrabble around for something to talk about besides fandom drama is just depressing.

Don't you know? "VS" contests are how they measure their...*<insert NSFW content>*. That's how the interwebs work.

Also, that youtube video from his funeral is very, very creepy for something that has nothing to do with Robotech. WTF?

Why in the which-ever-deity's name would anyone want to video tape a funeral? Isn't the fact that someone is dead enough?

[Gubaba]

Don't you know? "VS" contests are how they measure their...*<insert NSFW content>*. That's how the interwebs work.

Nah, I think it's just a bit of harmless fun. We all know Rick Hunter's gonna win, though...

[Bri]

Robotech or no, this is too damn awesome NOT to participate in:

http://robotech-character-clash.blogspot.com/

A Robotech Saimoe contest? Minmay ought to win that one Much to the chagrin of the RT fans I'm sure

[Gubaba]

A Robotech Saimoe contest? Minmay ought to win that one Much to the chagrin of the RT fans I'm sure

That's who I voted for...unfortunately, I think she's losing so far...

[Gubaba]

Agreed. The early comics were terribly illustrated, but once Comico got some decent talent (around Macross issue 15 or so) the quality went up a notch.

Oh yeah...it's great. Mikimoto who?

Edited June 16, 2010 by Gubaba

[EXO]

Alee alee oxen free?

You know Academy comics actually accepted me right before they lost their license... I too would have had my own horrible robotech comics if it weren't for those pesky kids...

[Einherjar]

Oh yeah...it's great. Mikimoto who?

It makes you wonder where some of those artists are now? I know at least one is a member here.

[Gubaba]

It makes you wonder where some of those artists are now? I know at least one is a member here.

Mike Leeke was the penciller throughout most of the Macross Saga, I believe. Carl Macek's wife Svea also did some of the issues. I'm not sure who the inkers were.