HG and Robotech Debates

[Seto Kaiba]

Ippei Kuri (Yoshida Toyoharu) is the creator of Robotech and his name is in the credits of Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles. I don't like Shadow Chronicles, but if you're going for officially canon there it is.

Wasn't he also responsible for the godawful character designs used in Robotech II: the Sentinels?

[HappyPenguins]

What would be the effects of a protoculture overdose. Insanely inflated self opinion?? Delusions of originality??

Taksraven

you just answered your own question

[Legioss]

Wasn't he also responsible for the godawful character designs used in Robotech II: the Sentinels?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=3945

Yeah, he's pretty much the originator of how Robotech turned out as opposed to Macross. Tatsunoko in the 80s was a scam. It was a way for poor studios to get their animation made. Then that animation would get sold to HG.

[HappyPenguins]

Robotech II: The Sentinels has been declared non-canon by Harmony Gold, following the release of Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles.

This makes me RAGE

[Einherjar]

This makes me RAGE

Beyond getting some type of closure from the continuation of the novels, what are people really missing out on? The tidbits I've been able to gather made the it sound dark & bleak to ridiculous & magical to the point where they just didn't care in the first place & phoning it in.

[HappyPenguins]

Beyond getting some type of closure from the continuation of the novels, what are people really missing out on? The tidbits I've been able to gather made the it sound dark & bleak to ridiculous & magical to the point where they just didn't care in the first place & phoning it in.

It's just a big pain in the ass to know the only decent story

Robotech ever had after the original 85 is no longer canon because of some giant turd of a movie that's being force-fed to the fans.

True the Sentinels was never AMAZING but I grew to like it and appreciate it for what it is, even if it's still crap. However, The Shadow Chronicles is just another BIGGER embarrassment to the franchise, and people wonder why I could care less if nothing new ever comes out anymore? Robotech was great for its time and is still great for those who never got out of it, but with crap like TSC, what's the damn point? Even the proposed sequel "Shadow Rising" is a piece of crap too *thanks to the leaked draft* The Robotech franchise isn't what it used to be anymore...it went from being Carl Macek's baby to Tommy Yune's wank fest and I have no interest in supporting anything NEW anymore because of that.

Robotech was never EPIC or anything, but Tommy Yune has killed it for me

maybe I owe him a big thanks?

[areaseven]

http://www.animenews...ime.php?id=3945

Yeah, he's pretty much the originator of how Robotech turned out as opposed to Macross. Tatsunoko in the 80s was a scam. It was a way for poor studios to get their animation made. Then that animation would get sold to HG.

I said it once and I'll say it again: Tatsunoko died when Tatsuo Yoshida died.

[Jasonc]

The issue with the Sentinels is that while it's been de-canonized, all the core elements of it are there. Then when PTTSC came out that was canon, until people started pointing out flaws in that. Then Tommy made that pseudo-canon. Now, if I had to take RT II:The Sentinels vs. what Sentinels is as seen in PTTSC, I'd rather see RT II:The Sentinels all over again, and all the way through. It seems that has always been a block for them, trying to make something original out of something that was pieced together. You'd think they'd at least do maybe an online comic of Sentinels to give people an idea of how it all goes down, but it's left open to muddy up the waters. I think if you take a little from Sentinels, little from the Jack McKinney novels, and some from the PTTSC, I think you kinda get what Sentinels is, or maybe should be for most. Even that's questionable though. I guess just make up your own story there.

[Renato]

I said it once and I'll say it again: Tatsunoko died when Tatsuo Yoshida died.

That's a bit harsh. Hiroshi Sasagawa is still there, and apart from Gatchaman and Mach55, Tatsunoko is most famous for his works, which have undergone several recent remakes.

[Seto Kaiba]

Robotech II: The Sentinels has been declared non-canon by Harmony Gold, following the release of Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles.

This makes me RAGE

Eh? Where'd you come up with that? When last I checked, Shadow Chronicles's teaser comic was a straight-up continuation/do-over of an existing part of Robotech II's comic book adaptation by Jason and John Waltrip. It's probably more accurate to say that Sentinels is pseudocanon... some of the events obviously HAD to still happen for things to be what they are, but deleting Sentinels from the continuity outright would irreparably screw over RTSC's setting and... *snicker*... story.

Beyond getting some type of closure from the continuation of the novels, what are people really missing out on? The tidbits I've been able to gather made the it sound dark & bleak to ridiculous & magical to the point where they just didn't care in the first place & phoning it in.

To be brutally frank... what they're missing out on is some of the worst-written sci-fi outside of Battlefield Earth. The episode outlines in Robotech Art 3 are pretty awful, and mostly consist of what the writers no doubt fondly imagined would be gritty, pulse-pounding action and gripping drama. The plot can best be summed up as the continuing adventures of Rick Hunter, as he leads a crusade of saintly humans across the galaxy to liberate a bunch of backwards, cliche little planets from the domination of a pack of cartoonishly evil space lobsters and their henpecked leader.

Part of the problem was, I think, that Harmony Gold insisted on changing writers early on. According to Macek, the writers Tatsunoko supplied for the project were completely baffled by Robotech and had no idea why anyone would combine three unrelated TV shows like that. It apparently became an issue and made it hard for them to understand how Robotech's sagas fit together, and they made the decision to call in (much less talented) American writers to do the job instead.

[MacrossCN]

I have a question for Gundam Series, is it broadcast in USA?

All Gundam Series is less than 65 episodes, it mean all Gundam Series can NOT broadcast in USA?

http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/gundam.htm

wikipedia:

Harmony Gold's cited reasoning for combining these unrelated series was its decision to market Macross for American weekday syndication television, which required a minimum of 65 episodes at the time (thirteen weeks at five episodes per week).

65 episodes?

Who's rules?

[Gubaba]

I have a question for Gundam Series, is it broadcast in USA?

All Gundam Series is less than 65 episodes, it mean all Gundam Series can NOT broadcast in USA?

http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/gundam.htm

wikipedia:

Harmony Gold's cited reasoning for combining these unrelated series was its decision to market Macross for American weekday syndication television, which required a minimum of 65 episodes at the time (thirteen weeks at five episodes per week).

65 episodes?

Who's rules?

For syndication on US network TV, yes, they usually need 65 episodes (13 weeks of material). Cable television (like Cartoon Network, which shows Gundam) and weekly shows go by different rules.

In the '70s and early '80s, it must not have been an issue, however, since both Star Blazers and Speed Racer had fewer than 65 episodes...

[hulagu]

I have a question for Gundam Series, is it broadcast in USA?

All Gundam Series is less than 65 episodes, it mean all Gundam Series can NOT broadcast in USA?

http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/gundam.htm

wikipedia:

Harmony Gold's cited reasoning for combining these unrelated series was its decision to market Macross for American weekday syndication television, which required a minimum of 65 episodes at the time (thirteen weeks at five episodes per week).

65 episodes?

Who's rules?

Firstly, Gundam (Wing) came along in a different time and environment.

Secondly, Macek tried to get the thing in as a daily weekday syndicated series (whether this is actually desirable for something as non-episodic as Macross and Southern Cross is questionable). A weekly show would have less strict requirements.

One question, did many of Robotech's contemporary animated shows typically broadcast five days a week in the US?

Edited June 6, 2010 by hulagu

[taksraven]

I have a question for Gundam Series, is it broadcast in USA?

All Gundam Series is less than 65 episodes, it mean all Gundam Series can NOT broadcast in USA?

http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/gundam.htm

wikipedia:

Harmony Gold's cited reasoning for combining these unrelated series was its decision to market Macross for American weekday syndication television, which required a minimum of 65 episodes at the time (thirteen weeks at five episodes per week).

65 episodes?

Who's rules?

An article like this is a good place to start.

Read this quote from the article...

100 episodes are effectively required for strip syndication, as this allows for 20 weeks of five-day-a-week reruns before repeating an episode. However, there are exceptions; for example, the 65-episode block, common in Children's programming, allows for a 13-week cycle of daily showings that repeats four times per year. Also, syndicated dramas are often syndicated weekly and as such do not rerun episodes as frequently.

That's what they are getting at.....

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

Secondly, Macek tried to get the thing in as a daily weekday syndicated series (whether this is actually desirable for something as non-episodic as Macross and Southern Cross is questionable). A weekly show would have less strict requirements.

Indeed... though if we take Macek's earliest account at face value, the attempt to broadcast the show in first-run syndication was what compelled the network executives to insist that the three shows be combined instead of having them run back to back as separate features.

[Bri]

Indeed... though if we take Macek's earliest account at face value, the attempt to broadcast the show in first-run syndication was what compelled the network executives to insist that the three shows be combined instead of having them run back to back as separate features.

Hmm interesting, how much trust you reckon we can we place in Maceks words? It took even Transformers 3 years to reach over 90 episodes. Why would a show that tried to cash in on Transformers' success need to have more episodes available immediately?

[Captain of the SDF-1 Macross]

I have a question for Gundam Series, is it broadcast in USA?

All Gundam Series is less than 65 episodes, it mean all Gundam Series can NOT broadcast in USA?

http://www.mahq.net/animation/gundam/gundam.htm

wikipedia:

Harmony Gold's cited reasoning for combining these unrelated series was its decision to market Macross for American weekday syndication television, which required a minimum of 65 episodes at the time (thirteen weeks at five episodes per week).

65 episodes?

Who's rules?

Here's another source.

From what it says is:

A syndication "package" consists of 65 episodes. This is the mininum amount of programming that the TV business feels that it can get away with, without losing viewers.

65 episodes allows the syndicator to present 1 new episode each weekday for 13 weeks equaling 65 episodes:

1 New Episode Each Weekday

x 5 Days A Week

----

5 Episodes A Week

x 13 Weeks

----

65 Total Number Of Episodes

The syndication package is then repeated 3 times during the year. This means that a syndication package is shown a total of 4 times (1 new, plus 3 repeats = 4 times) which equals 52 weeks.

13 Week Syndication Package

x 4 Showings

----

52 Weeks

In practice, very few animated shows in the children's market ever reach the 65 episode mark on the first year. Most of them air at 13, 26 or 50 episodes per year (the maximum is 52).

Another is competition for the airtime slots for the target audience can watch it. The producers and its sponsors would have to to bid for the timeslots they want (ie. Transformers to be aired Monday-Friday at 4 PM). By the time the good spots are taken (Monday-Friday 7-8 AM; 3:30-6 PM), the remainder has to settle with bad ones (ie. Monday-Friday at 6 AM).

Cable/satellite TV stations pretty much render the 65-episode syndication rule outdated, since specialty stations like the CN, Nickenloedeon and Disney (or in Canada, YTV, Teletoon and Family) can air their programs for their audience's convenience (if the viewers miss the 8 AM broadcast in the morning, they can catch the program again on 7 PM at night). Also, some of the programs air weekly to make the schedule line-up more variable.

[Legioss]

Robotech Art 3, page 43-44

"Matchbox's net yearly earnings were approximately $150 million. Hasbro and Mattel were in the $800 million to $1.2 billion dollar range. A typical corporate budget for a company like Matchbox or Mattel would allow for fifteen percent of their total earnings to be devoted to advertising. It is a formula which has been standard (plus or minus a few points) for many years. It is easy to see that Matchbox's total yearly earnings were roughly equal to the amount of money that a company like Hasbro or Mattel would spend on advertising alone. It made it hard to compete."

The 65 episode thing was a desire to make more money, not a rule. 65 episode shows were more appealing to TV stations. Harmony Gold saw Macross as being too small to be worth the money they'd get back.

[taksraven]

The 65 episode thing was a desire to make more money, not a rule. 65 episode shows were more appealing to TV stations. Harmony Gold saw Macross as being too small to be worth the money they'd get back.

Its really too bad that like anything, it all comes down to money money money rather than any sort of artistic merit.

Taksraven

[Captain of the SDF-1 Macross]

Robotech Art 3, page 43-44

"Matchbox's net yearly earnings were approximately $150 million. Hasbro and Mattel were in the $800 million to $1.2 billion dollar range. A typical corporate budget for a company like Matchbox or Mattel would allow for fifteen percent of their total earnings to be devoted to advertising. It is a formula which has been standard (plus or minus a few points) for many years. It is easy to see that Matchbox's total yearly earnings were roughly equal to the amount of money that a company like Hasbro or Mattel would spend on advertising alone. It made it hard to compete."

The 65 episode thing was a desire to make more money, not a rule. 65 episode shows were more appealing to TV stations. Harmony Gold saw Macross as being too small to be worth the money they'd get back.

Apart from competing for the timeslots the series need, Robotech also has this problem with it's story content that allows featuring deaths of main characters. This is unfortunately it's strength and a weakness. It "tries" feature that death happens for the characters (which is the only thing I can acknowledge in contributing anime in the 1980s) but suffers against the norm of 1980s animated TV series (much of the 1980s programs and edited anime that has violence had a no-no death scenes issue).

The late Peter Keefe, who created Voltron and Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs, did a better job with his edited anime and was more family-friendly. Like a lot of the 1980s cartoons of the time, he just edited out a lot of the deaths (the troops are actually robots, the human-like troops carry stun beam guns and the main characters just got better). To me, Keefe did a better job than Macek in editing anime to be family-friendly and more popular for the local stations to rerun.

I remember the time that Robotech had its reruns cut short here in Toronto in the 1980s (via a Buffalo TV station) and decided to rerun Voltron instead.

[Captain of the SDF-1 Macross]

Its really too bad that like anything, it all comes down to money money money rather than any sort of artistic merit.

Taksraven

Not only that, much of the 1980s cartoons are action-first, plot second. The time when the troops exploding are robots, the human-looking ones are using are stun beam guns and the main characters just got hurt but got better. One episode of GI Joe poked fun on the 1980s cartoon concept, when a guy wants revenge for Cobra Commander. I can't forget the time when the episode wraps up, the guy yells at Duke for letting Cobra Commander go despite the fact he's a dangerous villain who should got a .45 headshot.

For people who want both great action and great storytelling in the 1980s, they had to wait for the 1990s to roll out with much better TV series.

[Einherjar]

Apart from competing for the timeslots the series need, Robotech also has this problem with it's story content that allows featuring deaths of main characters. This is unfortunately it's strength and a weakness. It "tries" feature that death happens for the characters (which is the only thing I can acknowledge in contributing anime in the 1980s) but suffers against the norm of 1980s animated TV series (much of the 1980s programs and edited anime that has violence had a no-no death scenes issue).

This is one of the things I'm puzzled about in what was completed for the Sentinels and what ended up in the novels. In short, it got worse, and in some cases extremely violent and mature to show on American TV in the 80s. For instance, the part where the Invid blew up a bunch of Tirol civilians after sealing them in a building. And, of course, everything involving Minmei later in the novels. I mention that because, supposedly, the material in the novels were going to be animated at some point.

Yeah, like they would really get away showing stuff like that, regardless of money.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Einherjar

[MacrossCN]

The 65 episode thing was a desire to make more money, not a rule. 65 episode shows were more appealing to TV stations. Harmony Gold saw Macross as being too small to be worth the money they'd get back.

So, the criminal source is money!!!

My poor Macross...

[Robelwell202]

Its really too bad that like anything, it all comes down to money money money rather than any sort of artistic merit.

Taksraven

I can't believe I'm saying this, but...

Why in the world would HG do anything, except for a financial return? 'Artistic Merit' means nothing to a business. In the end, every business in the world is set up to get a financial return on an investment.

(Damn, did I just DEFEND HG?!? )

[azrael]

So, the criminal source is money!!!

My poor Macross...

Ahem.... *points at all the Macross Japanese merchandise in the past 2 years*

I can't believe I'm saying this, but...

Why in the world would HG do anything, except for a financial return? 'Artistic Merit' means nothing to a business. In the end, every business in the world is set up to get a financial return on an investment.

(Damn, did I just DEFEND HG?!? )

Nah, that's just how the world works. $$$$$$$!

[Captain of the SDF-1 Macross]

This is one of the things I'm puzzled about in what was completed for the Sentinels and what ended up in the novels. In short, it got worse, and in some cases extremely violent and mature to show on American TV in the 80s. For instance, the part where the Invid blew up a bunch of Tirol civilians after sealing them in a building. And, of course, everything involving Minmei later in the novels. I mention that because, supposedly, the material in the novels were going to be animated at some point.

Yeah, like they would really get away showing stuff like that, regardless of money.

From reading Robotech Art III and watching the Sentinels pilot, the pilot is the show's first three episode edited in a movie format. The remainder mentioned in RT Art III about the Earth forces' expedition getting caught in the Invid's invasion plan of taking the RT Masters' territory. Because the Earthers don't want the inhabitants be oppressed by the Invid (and having their flagship crippled), they decided to stay.

This plot point serves an explanation why the fleet didn't come back to Earth to stop the invasions. Also, it explains why planet Earth gets its reinforcements (Southern Cross got reinforcements from planet Libertie; Mospeada got theirs via the Mars colony).

I'm not a fan of the novels, but much of the Sentinels' novel plot is just McKinley making it up as he goes. He did got access to the series guidebook but can't get the scripts, resulting in some plots such as planet Praxis exploding (none are mentioned in RT Art III), the Haydonites are a well-populated species (in RT Art III, only two exist and their species are extinct) and General Edwards wants revenge (in RT Art III, he's just a greedy warmonger).

[Captain of the SDF-1 Macross]

So, the criminal source is money!!!

My poor Macross...

It's more than that. The mega-success of Transformers and Voltron (both aired on 1984) resulted in other TV producers wanting to jump into the market to be successful too.

Unfortunately, the years 1985 to 1987 was the big cartoon boom for the 1980s. Apart from Robotech, a lot of edited anime and a lot of 1980s cartoons fought for timeslots and advertising market share on who can get the mega-success.

The end result is that much of the stuff at time are more of the same and some are forgotten.

The only 1980s anime shows that are best remembered by non-fans of anime were Voltron (described as "the five lions that are similar to the Power Rangers Megazord", "the alien princess", "time to form a brainstorm Voltron") and Saber Rider and the Star Sheriffs (described as "the cowboy with the robot horse", "the one with the flying spaceship that transforms as a robot cowboy").

[taksraven]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but...

Why in the world would HG do anything, except for a financial return? 'Artistic Merit' means nothing to a business. In the end, every business in the world is set up to get a financial return on an investment.

(Damn, did I just DEFEND HG?!? )

Thats why I said "Its really too bad that like anything, it all comes down to money money money"

Don't worry, I fully understand commercial realities and all that crap. Despite that attitude, there have been many "artistic" shows/movies, etc over the years that have created an audience for themselves.

Edited June 6, 2010 by taksraven

[Keith]

Except that meshing the shows together s they did was still a blatant choice. They could have just as easily done a "Robotech" banner of anthology shows, i.e. running all of the shows in a "robotech" block of programming, but maintaining their individuality.

This would have been a much smarter, and more cost efficient move. As one show ends, they'd be free to license and place another show of similar ilk, with minimal work involved. As opposed to trying to create their own garbage to follow it (i'm looking at you sentinels!!).

Edited June 6, 2010 by Keith

[Einherjar]

This plot point serves an explanation why the fleet didn't come back to Earth to stop the invasions. Also, it explains why planet Earth gets its reinforcements (Southern Cross got reinforcements from planet Libertie; Mospeada got theirs via the Mars colony).

I understand the reasoning plot-wise. But I was focusing on the amount of violence and adult content they were planning in the Sentinels (if most of what was in the novels was actually planned to be animated). How would they get away with showing that kind of material without being censored?

Edited June 6, 2010 by Einherjar

[jenius]

I disagree with the banner being a better idea (well, except when viewed from a fan of the originals). The point was to make a cohesive show that people would want to watch from start to finish which would be far easier to sell to advertisers and TV channels than a banner show. "Wait, so at 30 episodes in it becomes a completely different show? What if they don't like the new show?" That would be an awkward question that "All the shows would be very similar" would only go so far in answering. In business you have due diligence and pitches where you have to back things up. The fact of the matter is saying "We'd bring in shows X, Y, and Z" would then mean you'd have to pitch why shows X, Y, and Z would be as successful as show A. In the case of Robotech, shows B and C could never be pitched as being as successful as show A so intertwining them with show A raised the stock of all the shows and made the whole adaptation we know worth doing.

[Keith]

As it turned out, 9 out of 10 robotech fans were dissapointed the rest wasn't Macross anyway, so that wouldn't have made much of a difference.

[taksraven]

Except that meshing the shows together s they did was still a blatant choice. They could have just as easily done a "Robotech" banner of anthology shows, i.e. running all of the shows in a "robotech" block of programming, but maintaining their individuality.

This would have been a much smarter, and more cost efficient move. As one show ends, they'd be free to license and place another show of similar ilk, with minimal work involved. As opposed to trying to create their own garbage to follow it (i'm looking at you sentinels!!).

Well somebody clearly got it in their head that a bastardised "saga" would be better than an anthology. Probably Macek.

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

Except that meshing the shows together s they did was still a blatant choice. They could have just as easily done a "Robotech" banner of anthology shows, i.e. running all of the shows in a "robotech" block of programming, but maintaining their individuality.

Yes, they could have... and according to Macek's earliest accounts of how Robotech came to be, such was his original intention. It was, according to him, the network executives they were pitching it to that decided that it wouldn't sell as an anthology series and that the three shows should be combined into a single story.

As it turned out, 9 out of 10 robotech fans were dissapointed the rest wasn't Macross anyway, so that wouldn't have made much of a difference.

Pretty much, yeah... even now the only part of Robotech that actually sells is Macross. It's just much more obvious these days.

Well somebody clearly got it in their head that a bastardised "saga" would be better than an anthology. Probably Macek.

See the above... back before Macek got it into his head that if he told a lot of lies and pretended Robotech was the result of a grand creative vision instead of executive meddling, he was saying that it was the network executives who caused it to change format from an anthology series to a "unified" story.

[Legioss]

Harmony Gold is like a convenience store that wants Wal Mart's customers and has this plan for how they're going to make people think they're Wal Mart by selling clothing, bikes, and TVs next to the soda cooler even though their regular customers are tripping over stuff trying to get a soda and the hotdog warmer is gone.