The Death of Anime??

[taksraven]

Here is a piece that ran on the SBS network here in Australia a few weeks ago, looking at the supposed decline of Anime in Japan, and shifts in the market. Thought that people here might be interested, you can watch it from the link too.

http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/about...ended-Animation

Anime getting any sort of media attention in this country is bizarre, it just NEVER happens, so I am always happy to see some sort of coverage.

Enjoy.

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

Anime survived the bubble burst of the late '80s/early '90s...let's hope they can make it through this crisis, too...

[azrael]

It's not as bad as the crap-fest going on here:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-...out-fan-support

(Look at the # of comments)

[Einherjar]

Anime survived the bubble burst of the late '80s/early '90s...let's hope they can make it through this crisis, too...

Didn't the video game industry go through the same thing before The Crash? Good thing companies like Nintendo, or probably just Nintendo at the time, came along raising the bar. Anime will likely survive and force the industry to put more quality into what they make, if it actually wants to collectively.

I don't know about the illegal downloads part of it though, it's complicated. From the distributor side, some of it is their fault for being picky and slow about which titles to invest in. I'd heard some choices are made based on how profitable the titles can be for the company if they release it instead of quality. Dubs also make it more complicated, yet probably more accessible and profitable for them. But I think it's a more legitimate problem for the companies actually making anime.

[Bri]

In mainstream media terms this report wasn't all that bad and it lacked the usual condescending tone. They also managed to show a few of the problems, but also misrepresented quite a lot, not sure if that was intentionally or just not quite understanding what they were talking about. Mixing up late night anime with hentai, calling it a major industry, throwing moe and soft-core on one heap, telling that downloading hurts the industry and then show a downloaded daytime show, just a few examples.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Bri

[kung flu]

Its kind of hard for me to support the anime market in my country since most of the shows available in the UK are shows that i'm not even interested in. I have downloaded fansubs since some of the shows have no chance of ever making it over here in the UK.

I do prefer to buy hard copies instead of downloads but since anime is such a small market here, there's just no choice. I mostly import my anime from USA, Japan and Hong Kong as long as i've got some form of english translation for them like fansubs or scripts. I have noticed that the number of titles coming out in the USA is declining which is worrying since its my main source for english anime.

UK has always been pretty slow on anime, when they finally started to release titles that are of interest to me, I'd already bought them all from other countries.

[Einherjar]

Remember this open letter to the anime industry?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2007-11-25

[Mr March]

So what then are all those DVDs, soundtracks and anime books doing in my house if, as a fan, I'm "not supporting the anime industry?" Distributors really need to take their heads out of their collective asses and stop blaming us fans who actually put more money DIRECTLY into the hands of the anime industry than they do.

Little tip to those in the international anime distribution business: no one cares. You've supplied for a demand that once existed but no longer. What's more, Japanese companies, for the most part, have never sought international distribution for anime. So international distributors were ALWAYS operating under danger of an unsupported industry. Is it supposed to be a big surprise then that a consumer demand isn't being met and has thus gone illegitimate? That is what happens when an industry doesn't grow and is stifled; bad business. If the international distribution model fails, international anime will simply backslide into niche markets. Only difference now is anime has an established consumer base internationally and online distribution will remain.

As for the anime industry itself: anime is Japan's concern. If the anime industry fails, it's a Japanese failure and that of no one else. Sure, fans of eclectic foreign entertainment such as ourselves will lose as well, but anime was always just a luxury. Anime supplemented our domestic entertainment when we were in the mood for different fare and didn't care about language or subtitles. We'll miss it should it disappear, but reports of the death of anime have been greatly exaggerated

[Einherjar]

What's funny is that I remember back in 2008 when a certain anime series a lot of people here like came around and did very well by itself and through it's merchandise. You WOULD think that something as successful as that would get the attention of the anime distribution industry to make money and save the industry. You would also think the legal and money problems would be reconsidered because of the benefits it would have for everyone. Heck, they even reported about it a number of times how successful it was. Instead, it was completely ignored, leaving less quality stuff for people's consumption sometime later, like Special A. I wonder if some courage for this would have saved ADV?

I don't think anime is dying, but I can't say the same for it's foreign distribution industry.

[Ghost Train]

What's funny is that I remember back in 2008 when a certain anime series a lot of people here like came around and did very well by itself and through it's merchandise.

Strike Witches?

[sketchley]

Don't have time to read the article. Nevertheless, the situation in Japan:

- global recession has effected the economy. Long story short, the adults most likely to spend money on more niche anime have less money to do so.

- anime on mainstream TV, especially those aimed at kids is uneffected. If anything, the amounts that they watch will go up, as their parents have less money to spend on other things (PSP, DS, club, etc.).

Conclusion: anime has survived the bubble years, the popping of the bubble, the 10+ year lack of economic growth, globalization, relaxation of labour laws, etc., etc., etc.. Currently, the government is saying that there is growth and the economy is recovering.

In other words: same old, same old.

[Gubaba]

What's funny is that I remember back in 2008 when a certain anime series a lot of people here like came around and did very well by itself and through it's merchandise.

Telepathy Shojo Ran?

[Vifam7]

I don't think anime is dying, but I can't say the same for it's foreign distribution industry.

Agreed. Anime will live on in Japan.

Outside Japan, distributors like ADV will continue to wither and/or disappear. The main problem with foreign distributors is 2 fold. One, they rely on a single source of income - the sale of DVDs and Blu-ray discs. Second, anime is steadily becoming a worthless product - a product that more and more fans no longer want to spend much money on. They don't care to support the creators and they don't care to spend money on anime. Fansub downloads is one of the root causes for this devaluation of anime. Meanwhile, the companies like Funimation continue on a faulty business model in which they try to sell more product in a shrinking market. Then they contribute to the devaluing of anime by making their releases cheaper and cheaper hoping to capture additional buyers that aren't there. The fact is there isn't enough supporters. The few of us who do buy isn't enough to prop them up and it isn't helping that they continually shoot themselves in the leg.

[Ghost Train]

I sure as hell am going to support anime when ROBOTECH: ASTROPLAN comes out on Blu-Ray. Imma going to donate blood for money tomorrow so can buy the Director's cut version with free Sky-Sword key chain.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Ghost Train

[areaseven]

I sure as hell am going to support anime when ROBOTECH: ASTROPLAN comes out on Blu-Ray. Imma going to donate blood for money tomorrow so can buy the Director's cut version with free Sky-Sword key chain.

Key chain? Meh. I'm gonna donate my left nut for the Perfect Collection set with the transforming box.

[David Hingtgen]

The Ultimate Neo-Perfect edition will have lead-coated discs though, for a hefty diecast feel.

[azrael]

Outside Japan, distributors like ADV will continue to wither and/or disappear. The main problem with foreign distributors is 2 fold. One, they rely on a single source of income - the sale of DVDs and Blu-ray discs. Second, anime is steadily becoming a worthless product - a product that more and more fans no longer want to spend much money on. They don't care to support the creators and they don't care to spend money on anime. Fansub downloads is one of the root causes for this devaluation of anime. Meanwhile, the companies like Funimation continue on a faulty business model in which they try to sell more product in a shrinking market. Then they contribute to the devaluing of anime by making their releases cheaper and cheaper hoping to capture additional buyers that aren't there. The fact is there isn't enough supporters. The few of us who do buy isn't enough to prop them up and it isn't helping that they continually shoot themselves in the leg.

It's actually kind of sad that despite numbers of people watching these shows and people attending conventions, most don't want to spend a penny on it. A frakin penny. They won't buy any DVDs or Blu-Rays. They don't buy the digital copies like those on iTunes. Even having new series show up a day later like Inu Yasha on Hulu isn't enough. Merchandise practically doesn't exist because the return is so small that it's hardly worth putting effort into. Is Crunchyroll even making a profit with their model? Even worldwide simultaneous release isn't good enough.

Anime licensors failed to adapt to modern times. That's their fault. But when you think about it, why did they fail to keep up with the times? Cuz people stopped spending money on them. Consumers found the 'Net to be a great place. It's fast. It's free. So people migrated there. Which meant lower revenue. Less revenue means less money coming in, which means cuts and layoffs, which means less people around the office. Less people working means less people to research new ways to get the product to the consumer. So companies have to rely on the time-proven method of home video releases, which NO ONE wants to buy. And it goes on and on until it shrivels and dies. So yes, anime companies get the blame for the state of things, but that's because you have a consumer-base that doesn't want to spend any money on the product.

[Einherjar]

Considering the difficulties Macross has recently, shouldn't the criticism for fansubs and the like for this franchise and others, being not legally and economically viable for people to access, be exempted? Of course, people in Japan and other places bought enough of the the first volumes on Blu-Ray to be significant. And then there's the merchandise that sells pretty well, so maybe it's an exception to what other products and the entire industry is facing as well.

EDIT: Forget it, mecha shows are mostly an exception to this. But the fansub thing should still be considered as an alternative to buying direct, right?

Edited April 30, 2010 by Einherjar

[dreamweaver13]

It's actually kind of sad that despite numbers of people watching these shows and people attending conventions, most don't want to spend a penny on it. A frakin penny. They won't buy any DVDs or Blu-Rays. They don't buy the digital copies like those on iTunes. Even having new series show up a day later like Inu Yasha on Hulu isn't enough. Merchandise practically doesn't exist because the return is so small that it's hardly worth putting effort into. Is Crunchyroll even making a profit with their model? Even worldwide simultaneous release isn't good enough.

Anime licensors failed to adapt to modern times. That's their fault. But when you think about it, why did they fail to keep up with the times? Cuz people stopped spending money on them. Consumers found the 'Net to be a great place. It's fast. It's free. So people migrated there. Which meant lower revenue. Less revenue means less money coming in, which means cuts and layoffs, which means less people around the office. Less people working means less people to research new ways to get the product to the consumer. So companies have to rely on the time-proven method of home video releases, which NO ONE wants to buy. And it goes on and on until it shrivels and dies. So yes, anime companies get the blame for the state of things, but that's because you have a consumer-base that doesn't want to spend any money on the product.

Yup. Chicken or egg. Fans resort to download because the distributors fail to provide avenues for easy (and immediate) access. Distributors won't put in the effort (and money) for distribution because the users download them for free anyway.

As Jimi Hendrix hopes, "there must be some kind of way out of here."

[sketchley]

So yes, anime companies get the blame for the state of things, but that's because you have a consumer-base that doesn't want to spend any money on the product.

QFT!

[Lott Sheen]

Don't have time to read the article. Nevertheless, the situation in Japan:

- global recession has effected the economy. Long story short, the adults most likely to spend money on more niche anime have less money to do so.

- anime on mainstream TV, especially those aimed at kids is uneffected. If anything, the amounts that they watch will go up, as their parents have less money to spend on other things (PSP, DS, club, etc.).

Haven`t you heard? Japan is facing a population crisis, there are less kids than ever before and that trend is downward, less kids watching anime means less ratings means less advertising revenue aimed from that market, means less funding for new mainstream anime. Every kid in Japan already has a DS so I dont think their DS time is going to much affect their anime watchin time or vice a versa.

Conclusion: anime has survived the bubble years, the popping of the bubble, the 10+ year lack of economic growth, globalization, relaxation of labour laws, etc., etc., etc.. Currently, the government is saying that there is growth and the economy is recovering.

but the market has changed, people spend money on different things now, modern Japanese like bargains and cheap stuff, not luxury items like their parents who paid tens of thousands of dollars for things like MUSE Hi Vision LD players, todays anime fan watches their favorite show on a monitor in an internet cafe booth.

In other words: same old, same old.

No. Times have changed.

[Aladdin Sane]

I haven't watched the video yet, but I suppose Negus didn't do anything apart from introducing/concluding the segment?

It's no surprise that SBS, of all the commercial Australian networks, would run such a piece. Before ABC2 came about and started airing Death Note, Cowboy Bebop reruns and whatever else they've got, SBS was pretty much the only free-to-air source of anime in the country outside of Sailor Moon/Pokemon/Teknoman/DBZ stuff you saw on the children's morning programs on Seven and Ten.

[Chet]

Fans resort to download because the distributors fail to provide avenues for easy (and immediate) access.

But a lot of fans openly admit to resorting to illegal downloads DESPITE the easy availability of licensed dvds, BDs or downloads. Folks today just feel ENTITLED to this stuff, and plunking down cash for what is essentially "software" is just so laughable to them, when they can get the stuff free on the net. And they download stolen/ripped versions of the licensed stuff, not just fansubs.

[Bri]

Yup. Chicken or egg. Fans resort to download because the distributors fail to provide avenues for easy (and immediate) access. Distributors won't put in the effort (and money) for distribution because the users download them for free anyway.

As Jimi Hendrix hopes, "there must be some kind of way out of here."

The answer is creating added value to a product, though it's easier said then done.

With the internet around, adding subtitles to what essentially is a Japanese TV commercial and then demand that consumers buy it unseen, months after it's initial release is not just bad business, it's a bad joke.

For all it's flaws Funimation is the only licensee that is investing in innovation. While dubbed sanitized shows aren't my cup of tea, there is a market for that type of material, same with their online experiments and TV licensing. At least they understand that free samples lead to more purchases not less.

I do not believe people are not prepared to spend money on their hobby, just look at the amounts of cash that MW members splash out on Macross. As long as there is a group of patrons prepared to spend serious money to get something exclusive then there will be artists providing what they seek.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Bri

[Renato]

I haven't watched the video yet, but I suppose Negus didn't do anything apart from introducing/concluding the segment?

Yep. And he seemed positively bored out of his mind by the end.

Overall, I think the piece was OK as far as Western journalistic coverage of the topic in the mainstream is concerned, because there is such a dearth of it anyway. But a lot of things were simplistic, sometimes to the point of strengthening the Western-held stereotypes regarding anime I thought had died out. I liked the interview with that poor douga artist, though. Bless 'im.

[sketchley]

...

Boy, you're just a bundle of negativity, aren't you?

Edited April 30, 2010 by sketchley

[PetarB]

I liked the interview with that poor douga artist, though. Bless 'im.

He seems to be the epitomy of what wrong with the fan end of the industry though. Too insular, too introverted, and not mainstream enough. Interesting subtext in the interviews with some of the prinicpals of the studios - although for a short term gain many studios are doing more 'late night' (ie, adult) material, they worry that this is further marginalising anime in general. I would have to agree.

[VFTF1]

Well, I can't access the SBS Dateline clip for some reason - but going by everyone's comments, I kind-of-sort-of intuit what it had to say and will comment on the comments more than on the SBS clip itself (since I can't watch it)...

I think it's important not to jump to the conclusion that the anime industry is dying, when "dying industry" can be used to describe the economic condition of not only the majority of companies on the market - but the market itself...and even COUNTRIES. I mean - when Europe and the USA - in terms of national governments - are facing sovieregn debt crisises.... how can you center on one industry and say it's dying?

The fact is that there has been NO improvement in the economy, whether in the US, or globally. The data just doesn't show it. So the growth of the unemployment rate in the USA slowed last quarter - big deal. It slowed by pretty much the same amount of people it takes the government to hire on a temp basis to conduct the sensus. Miniscule fluctuations don't matter. The fundamentals matter - and the fundamentals all SUCK.

So - to suddenly look at an industry and say - well - demand for this is or has evaporated... that's not quite correct. If this were happening during the boom years, then there would be cause for alarm regarding the viability of the anime industry.

But as such - when you're in a depression: guess what? Everything is depressed! No matter what industry you look at - things will be going badly in one way or another.

People don't have the disposable incomes to spend on this stuff anymore. Prices have been slashed to the point where companies wonder whether it makes any sense to produce anything any more. Nobody is hot to invest - everyone is hesistent and consumers just don't have the etra funds to put into this stuff....All points which people have made above.

But is the anime industry in trouble because the whole world is in trouble, or is it just that the anime industry is in trouble?

In my view - there's nothing structurally unsound about the anime industry - no amount of tinkering can "fix" it because it's not broken. The economy is trash and the economy is broken.

Fix the economy and the anime industry - like almost all other industries - will be fixed.

I don't believe that people are just spontaneously no longer interested in anime and in buying anime related goods.

So no - IMO - anime is not dying.

But then again...is there a transcript of this SBS thing? Or can someone sum up what they're saying? Because maybe I'm fighting windmills again....

Pete

[Vifam7]

The answer is creating added value to a product, though it's easier said then done.

Exactly.

For all it's flaws Funimation is the only licensee that is investing in innovation. While dubbed sanitized shows aren't my cup of tea, there is a market for that type of material, same with their online experiments and TV licensing. At least they understand that free samples lead to more purchases not less.

The problem is, too many have become accustomed to getting the whole thing for free. Samples of one or 2 episodes doesn't cut it for this new breed of fans. No, they want all the episodes for free.

I do not believe people are not prepared to spend money on their hobby, just look at the amounts of cash that MW members splash out on Macross. As long as there is a group of patrons prepared to spend serious money to get something exclusive then there will be artists providing what they seek.

There will always be folks who are willing to spend money. The question is whether there is enough of us. The industry won't survive if there aren't enough fans willing to spend money. Hard to determine anything from sampling MW, as MW is a small community dedicated to a specific property with a large emphasis on related merchandise.

[Bri]

The problem is, too many have become accustomed to getting the whole thing for free. Samples of one or 2 episodes doesn't cut it for this new breed of fans. No, they want all the episodes for free.

Yes, but is that a problem? These new "fans" have zero marginal cost to the industry. An extra person watching a stream or downloading does not add to the production costs. In fact if one of them becomes a paying customer (or true fan) it's a net gain to the industry. It's a fallacy to assume that any person watching anime for free would have paid for this content if the free option was not available. Unfortunately it's impossible to determine the number of people who stopped buying due to the free option, in relation to the new paying customers drawn in by watching free content first.

There will always be folks who are willing to spend money. The question is whether there is enough of us. The industry won't survive if there aren't enough fans willing to spend money. Hard to determine anything from sampling MW, as MW is a small community dedicated to a specific property with a large emphasis on related merchandise.

I agree, it's the big question. And yes, it's not possible to draw conclusions for the whole industry based on Macross. Still if the merchandise pages on some anime forums are an indication of what fans are spending on discs and merchandise, I'm not too afraid for the future in financial terms. Biggest threat IMO is that anime is turned to much inward lately(self referencing, otaku centered etc.) as mentioned by others in this thread. Making it hard to attract new fans.

[azrael]

It's important to keep in mind that shows on TV aren't necessarily free. You have commercials and sponsors jammed in there. This whole notion of "Oh it's on broadcast TV in Japan so it's free"-business makes no sense. Really, who came up with that argument? Every TV-rip I've seen has had some sponsor message crammed in there somewhere. If it doesn't, then there's a break for commercials somewhere in there. It's the same for any other broadcast TV show out there. Anybody who says it's free are kidding themselves. Irregardless of whether they're in Japan or not. As the saying goes, "There's no such thing as a free lunch."

Anime in Japan will not die. Any assertion of the idea is false. But it is experiencing a bubble collapse. How will it recover, is something we're seeing.

There will always be folks who are willing to spend money. The question is whether there is enough of us. The industry won't survive if there aren't enough fans willing to spend money. Hard to determine anything from sampling MW, as MW is a small community dedicated to a specific property with a large emphasis on related merchandise.

Very true. And this is affects Japan, as well as everything outside of it. So the issue of sustainability comes in. Which leads us back to the notion of getting something for nothing. You're not getting something for nothing because you're not the one paying for it. Some else is paying for it.

[Mr March]

The problem is, too many have become accustomed to getting the whole thing for free.

This is the crux of the issue but the truth of the situation is its much too late to do anything about it. Industry failed for many years to understand the new reality of product distribution (due to the impact of the internet) and thus an entire generation was raised in an environment of free online movies and music. If industry had moved immediately to supply for the online demand, piracy would NEVER have ballooned to the size it is today. The exact same thing happened with our own domestic music industry and the infamous controversies of those turbulent years. But digressing, the damage has been done and business has to deal with the "for-free generation" of consumers they helped create.

This is the issue skeptics don't understand about anime outside of Japan. Critics want to blame fans for not buying enough anime and merchandise, they want to decry "kids these days" and their for-free attitudes, they want to blame piracy and the internet for all the ills of the industry, etc. A demand for anime exists and that demand will be met whether Japanese anime creators care about foreign markets or not. That's the reality. Further, the indifference of Japanese companies to international demand creates the climate for non-conventional distribution of their products. Again, history repeats itself with an industry unwilling to supply for demand and in turn, creating an economic environment rampant with piracy.

However, there is another important factor in anime distribution and that lies firmly in the hands of the anime fan. Anime fans, by their very nature, are eclectic niche consumers. It's as true today as it was in decades past that the underground, off-the-radar nature of anime itself is a large part of the initial attraction to this type of consumer. As a result, anime consumers are known for discovering non-conventional methods of obtaining hard-to-find products. By far the vast majority of consumers can't be bothered to look at a product unless marketed directly at them and made available in a comfortable mainstream manner. By contrast, anime fans are a consumer minority that display the exact opposite behaviour, often expending considerable effort to buy products that ARE NOT advertised or available. So in effect, even simple to find and easy to afford solutions for supplying anime online might not attract the same proportion of potential consumers as another type of product.

One possible solution to these problems should be meeting demand for products that international anime fans ARE willing to purchase. If the anime shows themselves cannot entice purchases, promote sale of products we all KNOW anime fans cannot resist. Buy 5 episodes of Macross Frontier and receive a coupon for 3% off the purchase price of your next Macross Revoltech figure, or Macross Yamato transformable or Macross Hasegawa model. Buy 10 episodes and get a 5% coupon. Buy the whole series and get 10% off the show itself, plus a 15% off merchandise coupon! Hit anime fans with enticing deals where it counts, in the merchandising. I can guarantee you fans will be lining up at Crunchy Roll to save on CDs, books and toys. ESPECIALLY if anime is released AS BROADCAST the per episode expense over time will seem very appealing to anime fans who want to save on expensive merchandise. If I were offered 10% off the cost of the Macross Chronicle, I would have jumped at the opportunity to purchase Macross Frontier online and dropped the fan subs (ignoring that as an old school fan and Macross fan, I would have purchased Macross Frontier online anyway, were it made available)

[Ghost Train]

The only solution is to import anime, strip elements of East-Asian culture that seem confusing and weird, anglicize all the names to good ol fashioned Christian names! ... and take advantage of economies of scale by mashing more than 1 series into one!

[sketchley]

Further, the indifference of Japanese companies to international demand creates the climate for non-conventional distribution of their products.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're placing the blame on the Japanese companies.

If so, it's a fallacious arguement. For all we know, they do care, but they just don't have the budget to do something about it.* Another factor is that some countries have trade and legal restrictions that effectively inhibit distribution. For example, I know a publisher who won't release product in the USA because the publisher's insurer won't cover the territory as legal costs are too high as there are far too many false product liability lawsuits.

* Gundam being a good example of a series that does have a budget to do something about international distribution.

Edited April 30, 2010 by sketchley

[azrael]

One possible solution to these problems should be meeting demand for products that international anime fans ARE willing to purchase. If the anime shows themselves cannot entice purchases, promote sale of products we all KNOW anime fans cannot resist. ...*snip for length*

Again, why buy episodes of a show when I can download it for free? Why do I have to waste my money on buying something I can just get for free? And if I want a piece of merchandise, I can just wait for it to come down in price or wait for a store to put a 10%-off sticker on it. I don't waste money on a show and I get merchandise for cheaper.