Earth after the Zentradi attack

[Killer Robot]

Now about this cloning, is this actually confirmed somewhere or is this all speculation? And if they are cloning people wouldn't they have a very small pool to choose from. There weren't exactly many survivors after the zentradi attack.

Also, while the survivors were only a tiny fraction of the original population, it still on the order of millions of people between human survivors and allied Zentradi. Still more than enough genetic diversity for setting up a healthy new population by cloning or normal reproduction either way.

[Ghost Train]

You don't need a huge population to maintain the species genetically viable. A real life case would be Iceland - which is that of an island with 300k-ish people.

Don't have an exact number, but a few thousand would be in the "ok range". Plus, the infusion of zentra/meltra genes into the pool certainly helped with genetic variability as well conferring traits like improved resistance to vacuum (go Ranka ).

[macross_fan99]

You don't need a huge population to maintain the species genetically viable. A real life case would be Iceland - which is that of an island with 300k-ish people.

Don't have an exact number, but a few thousand would be in the "ok range". Plus, the infusion of zentra/meltra genes into the pool certainly helped with genetic variability as well conferring traits like improved resistance to vacuum (go Ranka ).

Yeah, but try to turn those 300,000 into millions like they seem to have done in Macross and you are going to end up with a lot of similar looking people.

Is there any mention of the total Human population since they started to recover from the attack?

[Bri]

Yeah, but try to turn those 300,000 into millions like they seem to have done in Macross and you are going to end up with a lot of similar looking people.

Is there any mention of the total Human population since they started to recover from the attack?

JBO once posted a translation of "The lost two years."

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=699893

In short less then 1% of the human population and 8 million Zentradi, who sided with UN Spacy, survived. (By today's numbers that would mean less then 68 million human survivors)

It is unknown how many of the Zentradi forces that fought on Bodolzas side (that automatically folded out when their command ships were destroyed as mentioned in SDFM) later joined up with UN Spacy, though Klan Klan specifically mentions them during Frontier.

It's possible the Chronicle has provided more accurate/reliable updates in the mean time, but I have no knowledge of those.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Bri

[miles316]

JBO once posted a translation of "The lost two years."

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=699893

In short less then 1% of the human population and 8 million Zentradi survivors who sided with UN Spacy. (By today's numbers that would mean less then 68 million human survivors)

It is unknown how many of the Zentradi forces that fought on Bodolzas side (that automatically folded out when their command ships were destroyed as mentioned in SDFM) later joined up with UN Spacy, though Klan Klan specifically mentions them during Frontier.

It's possible the Chronicle has provided more accurate/reliable updates in the mean time, but I have no knowledge of those.

If sixty million is the area than just using Cloning tech to replace people leaving the earth each year, and losses in combat would keep the population stable allowing a natural increase to happen unabated.

Edited April 25, 2010 by miles316

[Seto Kaiba]

That's beacause of the firing of the Grand Cannon wiped out half of the fleet before they could recharge their weapons, a massive attack like that would most likely be a slight drain on their power systems. Plus it caught them by surprise.

Eh... more like a fifth of the fleet (~795,122 ships), but the principle is the same and I don't think every ship would have been taking part in the bombardment, just those with heavy anti-battleship armaments and bow-firing converging beam cannons. I get the feeling they'd probably leave the carriers and fleet pickets out of it.

Now about this cloning, is this actually confirmed somewhere or is this all speculation? And if they are cloning people wouldn't they have a very small pool to choose from. There weren't exactly many survivors after the zentradi attack.

As Gubaba said, it's confirmed in plenty of publications on the subject. Contrary to the popular objection, they weren't working with an aggressively limited gene pool either... they had ~1 million people to choose from who survived by the simple expedient of being somewhere other than Earth's surface when it all came down. The implications of mass cloning are discussed as well... proliferation of hereditary diseases was what killed the cloning program in 2030.

[macross_fan99]

Eh... more like a fifth of the fleet (~795,122 ships), but the principle is the same and I don't think every ship would have been taking part in the bombardment, just those with heavy anti-battleship armaments and bow-firing converging beam cannons. I get the feeling they'd probably leave the carriers and fleet pickets out of it.

As Gubaba said, it's confirmed in plenty of publications on the subject. Contrary to the popular objection, they weren't working with an aggressively limited gene pool either... they had ~1 million people to choose from who survived by the simple expedient of being somewhere other than Earth's surface when it all came down. The implications of mass cloning are discussed as well... proliferation of hereditary diseases was what killed the cloning program in 2030.

I'm guessing the macross compendium would be the best place to read up on all this? Is that basically wiki for Macross?

EDIT: 60 million people is more than I would have thought would survived, but it at least allows for all the expansion into space. Why even clone people if you have that large a population?

Edited April 25, 2010 by macross_fan99

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm guessing the macross compendium would be the best place to read up on all this? Is that basically wiki for Macross?

Yeah, that's a good place to start.

EDIT: 60 million people is more than I would have thought would survived, but it at least allows for all the expansion into space. Why even clone people if you have that large a population?

Where on Earth did you come up with "60 million"? That certainly isn't what I said, nor is it in the Compendium. The total number of survivors has pretty consistently been identified as being between a few hundred thousand and 1 million, who survived the orbital bombardment in Grand Cannon III, Grand Cannon V, the moon colony, space colonies, and inside the Macross itself.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[macross_fan99]

I was going with the 1% as per the post by Bri. 1% of 6 billion comes to 60 million.

It did seem like way too much for what was shown in the tv series, but I figured it was correct. Either way, I'm going to go through the compendium which should clear this up.

[JB0]

JBO once posted a translation of "The lost two years."

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=699893

I feel obliged to note that I REposted that. Original credit for the effort goes to Roycommi.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ost&p=65839 (links now dead, hence the reposting)

[Bri]

Where on Earth did you come up with "60 million"? That certainly isn't what I said, nor is it in the Compendium. The total number of survivors has pretty consistently been identified as being between a few hundred thousand and 1 million, who survived the orbital bombardment in Grand Cannon III, Grand Cannon V, the moon colony, space colonies, and inside the Macross itself.

To clarify, the Roycommi translation of The Lost Two Years by Kawamori from the Minori's Macross Perfect Memory (1984) puts the number down as less then 1% of the population surviving SW I hence a number somewhere between 0 and 68 million. I cannot verify how accurate the translation is and what other sources say.

The compendium speaks of 100k to 1 million survivors in the grand cannons, the moon base and space colonies. Which is consistent with the Lost Two Years, but puts the number at the lower end of the interval. The Lost Two Years only mentions underground survivors which does not necessarily mean only people from the Grand Cannons (possibly mines, underground bunkers, tunnels, submarines etc). Unfortunately the compendium does not cite any sources making it hard to verify where it's numbers came from. Since the Perfect Memory predates the Nue time line sequels, it is possible later material specifies the number more clearly. The Chronicle time line sheets should have information in: 19 - The Conclusion of Space War I and 20 - Reconstruction of Earth on this subject.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Bri

[Mr March]

I remember that I once made an analysis of the UNG population post-SWI by examining the population required to sustain colonization. It was a backward way of going about it, but it was an interesting exercise that came up with some minimum population numbers that would be needed to keep the colony fleets (and their own worlds) going. If I can find it again, I'll re-post it here.

[Lott Sheen]

@Redwolf Macross 2 is not canon so that is not a good source of info in this case.

It depends which canon you subscribe to. I personally think SK hijacked Macross and ruined it from Macross 7 onwards and believe the only true Macross is MII and everything that came before, including DYRL? FB2012 and the PC Engine games. Kawamori works best as a controlled force, not as the boss.

[Noyhauser]

Alright, so I just went through the last episode of Macross Plus again trying to get a good look at the Earth and there doesn't seem to be any vegetation anywhere. All the shots of the planet when Isamu is entering the atmosphere are blue and brown. This would seem to follow the DYRL story more than the tv series since in the tv series they at least mentioned that some forests had survived.

Using Macross City's status in macross plus as a indication of the planet's condition is somewhat misleading. If Macross city is somewhere near Alaska and thus approaching northern latitudes (where temperatures goes through significant extremes and can only support hardy plantlife in a VERY delicate ecosystem) then regeneration may take significantly longer than in more temperate regions. Its quite possible that areas south of the 49th parallel have experienced significant regrowth and rehabilitation by 2040 and beyond.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Noyhauser

[macross_fan99]

Using Macross City's status in macross plus as a indication of the planet's condition is somewhat misleading. If Macross city is somewhere near Alaska and thus approaching northern latitudes (where temperatures goes through significant extremes and can only support hardy plantlife in a VERY delicate ecosystem) then regeneration may take significantly longer than in more temperate regions. Its quite possible that areas south of the 49th parallel have experienced significant regrowth and rehabilitation by 2040 and beyond.

Actually when Isamu defolds and he is approaching Earth he is coming in to orbit near Africa. You can tell by the monitor that shows the Earth satellite system activating.

Plus if we were going by the theory that the Zentradi concentrated their attacks on populated areas then most of the Forests in Northern Canada would have survived and we should see some sign of them. I would try to see exactly where they flying over but its likely they didn't bother to design the terrain below accurate to real landscapes.

I've been going through the macross compendium and they mention that there is a definite environmental program that takes place so it would seem that the Earth is on its way to recovery.

EDIT: I managed to get a copy of the Macross Plus movie in 1080p and with the clearer image there are definite large patches of green when Isamu first enters orbit. Most of the planet is barren but it seems not all.

Edited April 27, 2010 by macross_fan99

[Vepariga]

I wonder if the Earths population is more zentradi half-breeds like ranka and guld then actual pure blooded humans,would probably make sense as there was a ton more zentradi and meltran defectors then there was the people onboard the SDF-1. probably why half-casts are common place..

[Seto Kaiba]

I wonder if the Earths population is more zentradi half-breeds like ranka and guld then actual pure blooded humans,would probably make sense as there was a ton more zentradi and meltran defectors then there was the people onboard the SDF-1. probably why half-casts are common place..

Well, if the Compendium, The Two Lost Years, and the various other sources around are anything to go by, there ought to be plenty of half-breeds running around. One would expect, by 2059 or so, that pure humans would be a minority among the general population due to two generations worth of interbreeding. Between Perfect Memory and the Compendium, the situation after the war looks to have been a population of ~1 million humans and ~8 million Zentradi. At that point, it's all down to "how many Zentradi had kids with humans", and how many all-Zentradi families there were.

[RedWolf]

Yet we will have to account also those Human clones as adults or as children. An all out cloning program would have had the Zentradi outnumbered. Irony as it is the Zentradi would prefer the natural way of reproduction while Humans had to resort to mass cloning to avoid extinction.

As we've seen in Frontier Zentradi children in their natural sizes. Also Moaramia a natural born Zentradi was adopted by Max and Millia. From a six year old giant micloned to human size.

Klan was as rare case that the miclone chamber spits her out as a loli.

[miles316]

Good old Human Racism might have been a motivation factor for resorting to Cloning to correct the disparity between Human and Zentradi.

[Mr March]

Also, political and social will would have been strong influences for restoring the human population post-Space War I. The humans were obviously still very much in charge following the war and so political policy would have obviously placed priority upon restoring the human population. Public sympathy for the nearly-extinct state of the human race would also be very high among human survivors and would facilitate institution of human restorative policies. The Zentradi survivors would also be strongly motivated to help restore the human population over that of their own, possibly even living under harsh conditions of discrimination as their idea of penance to assuage guilt over their role in Earth's demise. It's likely these pro-human attitudes and policies would remain strongly supported for at least several decades given the severity of events.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yet we will have to account also those Human clones as adults or as children. An all out cloning program would have had the Zentradi outnumbered. Irony as it is the Zentradi would prefer the natural way of reproduction while Humans had to resort to mass cloning to avoid extinction.

Which just increases the chances of human-Zentradi interbreeding as the human population grows. Certainly by 2059 in Macross's main continuity and 2092 in Macross's alternate continuity, nobody seemed to find Human-Zentradi hybrids unusual or remarkable.

Good old Human Racism might have been a motivation factor for resorting to Cloning to correct the disparity between Human and Zentradi.

Such racism was certainly present in the survivors of the Space War 1 generation, even as late as 2040. The general in charge of Project Super Nova seemed to think Guld was untrustworthy because of his mixed heritage, and said as much directly to Guld's face during that inquiry after Guld shot up Isamu's YF-19 using illicitly-loaded live ammo during a blank round test sequence. Once news of the Zentradi uprising on Gallia IV came to his attention, President Howard Glass had started to say something untoward about the Zentradi before being reminded that he should be careful what he says by Leon.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[RedWolf]

As seen in both Macross 7 and Macross Frontier a significant part of the voting public are Zentradi.

For Glass' political survival he should keep those racist attitudes to himself. Though history would know him as the 4th Frontier president who was tricked and murdered by the machinations of his advisor Leon and Macross Galaxy.

As for General Gomez to me he isn't racist considering his public pro-integration stance more like a pie in the sky idealist. Just that he knows there are some Zentradi having problems dealing with their emotions. This was also a plot point in Macross 7 Trash. In the OVA he is justified in thinking foul play with the round replacement. In the movie it was more of a question of Guld's psychological stability.

Gomez was more concerned of getting live men off the battlefield replacing them with automated AI fighters. The "accident" was a convinient reason to shut down the Super Nova Project.

[JB0]

Good old Human Racism might have been a motivation factor for resorting to Cloning to correct the disparity between Human and Zentradi.

Would also explain why Macross 5 was a mainly-zentradi colony mission, despite the colonization program being mainly to ensure the survival of humanity. Reduce the zentradi population back home by sending them across the galaxy. And if they FIND a good planet, well... can always send a few carriers full of humans to crash the party later, right?

[Uxi]

I always had the impression that human-zentredi hybrids were relatively rare. Human populations on the Emigration Fleets we see are certainly human predominant. Earth in the official timeline still being jacked is one of the few premises that make the Super Long Range Emigration strategy more plausible.

[RedWolf]

I always had the impression that human-zentredi hybrids were relatively rare.

Also Zolan hybrids.

Cloning is the reason why humans outpaced Zentradi population.

I beleive in the Timeline it states after the Second Battle of Macross City in 2030 giant Zentradi are banned on Earth's surface.

While miclonization is a choice it became mandatory as far as Earth policy is concerned.

I can see Zentradi who prefer to be their natural size living at factory satellites and colonies on the lagrange points or the moon.

In fact I can see Island 3 as part of Frontier's all natural sales pitch.

Edited May 6, 2010 by RedWolf

[macross_fan99]

Also Zolan hybrids.

Cloning is the reason why humans outpaced Zentradi population.

I beleive in the Timeline it states after the Second Battle of Macross City in 2030 giant Zentradi are banned on Earth's surface.

While miclonization is a choice it became mandatory as far as Earth policy is concerned.

I can see Zentradi who prefer to be their natural size living at factory satellites and colonies on the lagrange points or the moon.

In fact I can see Island 3 as part of Frontier's all natural sales pitch.

Its still pretty stupid that they allow full sized Zentradi on Macross Frontier. If you are headed into deep space and with limited resources you would want your population to be small so they could use less resources.

As for the whole mixed population I kind of see it as when Europeans first settled in the Americas. There were a few who had kids with the natives but for the most part they didn't really mingle.

[Seto Kaiba]

I always had the impression that human-zentredi hybrids were relatively rare. Human populations on the Emigration Fleets we see are certainly human predominant. Earth in the official timeline still being jacked is one of the few premises that make the Super Long Range Emigration strategy more plausible.

Part of that is, no doubt, the result of a good deal of energetic fornication on the part of the Space War 1 survivors and a good twenty years of mass cloningat the behest of the U.N. government. While we see a handful of Human-Zentradi hybrids take center stage in Macross, it seems a bit odd to assume they ended up on the rare side when 87% or more of Earth's population was Zentradi immediately after Space War 1's conclusion. It may simply be that there is a significant percentage who are hybrids and the show simply doesn't call attention to them. By 2045, nobody seems to think it remarkable that a neighbor or a classmate is part-alien.

Its still pretty stupid that they allow full sized Zentradi on Macross Frontier. If you are headed into deep space and with limited resources you would want your population to be small so they could use less resources.

Eh... if we take the contents of the Macross Frontier Pash! Animation File at face value then the 5th Generation colony ship Macross Frontier is operating at only a fraction of its maximum capacity. Taking that into account, even if the Zentradi population's resource demands are five times that of the micloned population, they still wouldn't be anywhere close to pushing the limits of the bioplant ship's resources. In war, however, the drain on resources and damage to the ship did eventually force them to miclone their Zentradi residents.

[Bri]

Cloning is the reason why humans outpaced Zentradi population.

Can we even be sure about that? A significant part of the Bodolza fleet survived SW1, many could have joined the human/Zentradi alliance in the years after the defeat. Maybe even other fleets that have been encountered during the colony missions, like Chloe's forces in FotSW.

There could actually still be more Zentradi then humans by 2059. The animation mainly focuses on the human perspective or characters. Wasn't there a Kawamori interview where he mentioned that the Frontier fleet had Zentradi forces among it's escorts but they weren't on screen.

[sketchley]

There's not much information available that I've come across regarding demographics. Sure, there are Zentraadi only (M5), English only (M11), and mixed fleets (M7, 25), but not much more than that.

Could the humans have outpaced the Zentraadi population? More likely.

Could there be more Zentraadi than humans? Less likely.

Why do I consider humans being more likely? For starters, we don't have exact numbers of crew on a Zentraadi ship. For all we know the numbers fielded so far are extremely optimistic and for Protoculture era ships. What I consider as being a more likely factor is the lack of experience with child rearing amongst the Zentraadi.

Mind you, this depends on the answer to what exactly cloning is, in the Macross universe. Is it carbon copies of people, complete with memory downloads of the original? (the Macross Chronicle SLRE fleet page implies this during the initial post-SWI period) Or is it merely a baby that get output from the cloning machine that have to be reered the traditional way after that? (Other sources imply this during later periods of the timeline).

If it's the former, than either way is possible, but as the Zentraadi don't have a requirement to repopulate their species, let alone facilities to reer children on their ships nor access to the majority of cloning Factory Satellites that the UN Forces come across, it's likely that the Zentraadi allied to Earth started with a higher population, but that population growth has been eclipsed by the human's population growth.

[Seto Kaiba]

Why do I consider humans being more likely? For starters, we don't have exact numbers of crew on a Zentraadi ship. For all we know the numbers fielded so far are extremely optimistic and for Protoculture era ships. What I consider as being a more likely factor is the lack of experience with child rearing amongst the Zentraadi.

Plausible, but there's always parenting classes. I can't imagine the U.N. wouldn't sanction that sort of thing in the event Zentradi started having families. Insofar as Zentradi ship crew sizes, the mean is easily enough established as 1,507 by the simple expedient of taking the ship count in the 118th Main Fleet and dividing it by the rough estimate of the fleet's total population. So we can assume the average battleship's got around 1,500 people on it total.

[sketchley]

Ok, we gots a number of personnel. But what's the gender breakdown? SDFM implies that there are significantly less females per fleet than males.

As for parenting classes - it's just not the same as first-hand knowledge from parents (grandparents) and one's childhood. Nevertheless, I've covered myself with the further argument that the Zentraadi don't really have a pressing need to procreate at a similar pace as the Earthlings feel they must.

[Bri]

Mind you, this depends on the answer to what exactly cloning is, in the Macross universe. Is it carbon copies of people, complete with memory downloads of the original? (the Macross Chronicle SLRE fleet page implies this during the initial post-SWI period) Or is it merely a baby that get output from the cloning machine that have to be reered the traditional way after that? (Other sources imply this during later periods of the timeline).

Clones as babies seems unlikely given the shocked reaction by the Zentradi on the factory satellite when Max and Milia show Komilia. They had never seen or heard of a baby before. Presumably Zentradi are not created as infants. Also if the clones were babies, the remaining survivors of SW 1 would have to babysit multiple infants 24/7 given the growth rate of the human population.

The carbon copy option seems the most plausible.

Still other options are possible. We don't know if there is a limit to the amount of genetically different Zentradi. They could all be derived from a limited amount of genetic templates like the Cylons from BSG.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Bri

[RedWolf]

Ok, we gots a number of personnel. But what's the gender breakdown? SDFM implies that there are significantly less females per fleet than males.

Given Tranquil's intel on Vrlitwhai and Exsedol , if we infer they were part of Bodolle Zer's fleet given Chlore's rivalry with Millia, a portion of the female Zentradi of that fleet did not participate in Space War 1. May or may not be a deliberate action on Bodolle's Zer's part.

But since we recently found out the UNG has been robbing factory satellites and it is implied that Veffidas is a recent cultured Zentradi, though a planet bound type, plenty of opportunity to gather Zentradi girls to be indoctrinated in the Earth culture.

On another note there been any indication that these stolen factory satellites have a Clonning Synthesis System? Massed produced Meltrans.

As for parenting classes - it's just not the same as first-hand knowledge from parents (grandparents) and one's childhood. Nevertheless, I've covered myself with the further argument that the Zentraadi don't really have a pressing need to procreate at a similar pace as the Earthlings feel they must.

Well if we take Moa as an example some Zentradi parents are quite spartan.

[Vostok 7]

It depends which canon you subscribe to. I personally think SK hijacked Macross and ruined it from Macross 7 onwards and believe the only true Macross is MII and everything that came before, including DYRL? FB2012 and the PC Engine games. Kawamori works best as a controlled force, not as the boss.

I know M7 is bad and all, but lolwut?

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, we gots a number of personnel. But what's the gender breakdown? SDFM implies that there are significantly less females per fleet than males.

Your guess is as good as mine. You're right in that the original Macross series makes the female troops out to be a fairly small percentage of the Zentradi 118th Main Fleet. Presumably a lack of Zentradi women would only drive the rate of inter-species breeding up when the bulk of the female breeding population is human. Macross II's parallal world continuity makes things a bit less messy by adding defectors from two cultured Meltrandi fleets into the mix along with the cloning program and the various Zentradi fleets that defected.

On another note there been any indication that these stolen factory satellites have a Clonning Synthesis System? Massed produced Meltrans.

Not that I've seen, but presumably they got the cloning technology from somewhere.

I know M7 is bad and all, but lolwut?

C'mon, with a handle like "Lott Sheen"*, what were you expecting? His attitude towards Kawamori reminds me a lot of the way some of the older Star Trek fans and writers regard Gene Roddenberry... a good idea man, but not someone who should be allowed to have full creative control of the projects he works on. (The example Star Trek fans usually give is the first season or so of TNG, where the human cast were faultless paragons of virtue who spent a lot of time preaching at and/or outsmarting morally, ethically, and intellectually inferior aliens) I can kind of see where Lott's coming from, since I prefer the Macross shows made before Kawamori returned to the franchise with Macross Plus, since the later stuff's changes in theme and tone made them feel almost like a different series at times, though I'm not quite so extreme as to say Kawamori ruined Macross, since I rather enjoyed Macross Plus and Macross Frontier.

* In case you don't know who Lott Sheen is, he's Komilia's wingman and love interest from the PC Engine games which were made as prequels to the Macross II OVA. Specifically, Macross 2036.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Seto Kaiba