Earth after the Zentradi attack

[macross_fan99]

After the zentradi attacked the Earth the planet turned into a barren wasteland, but what is the current status during the Frontier timeline?

In the original Macross there are a few shots that show some treens and grass but for the most part everything is barren

During Macross Plus Isamu and Guld were fighting over barren terrain so the planet had not recovered but I was wondering if there had ever been anything mentioned regarding the conditions of the environment. Has the planet returned to being a green planet like Eden or does it continue to be a dead planet.

[sketchley]

Most likely it's still largely a dead planet. Macross Frontier repeats the Macross City shots from Macross Plus, but shows little more of the planet of note. The Macross Chronicle article might have some information on the late 2050's state, but I haven't heard of anyone translating it.

[Mr March]

I don't really know, but I think your own observations about Macross Plus might provide some context about conditions on Earth circa 2059. Both the Macross Plus animation and official published art materials show large portions of the Earth remain barren areas of cratered wasteland than can be seen even from orbit. If after 30 years between the end of SDF Macross and the events of Macross Plus the Earth still remains mostly dead land, it doesn't seem likely the planet would be a verdant world again after only another 19 years have passed. I think it is likely the Earth has recovered more since the 2040s, but I think the idea presented in the post-Space War One sequels is to depict an Earth which may not become green again for many generations. Such a depiction of Earth does have narrative advantages, such as creating a setting in which the impetus for colonization is still remains and providing long lasting implications for the grand scope of the Space War One conflict.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Mr March

[miles316]

You might want to look at some books like "the World After People" I think thats what it is called which depicts how the Earth would respond if Humanity vanished that might help you imagine.

I know it isn't the same thing also books on Nuclear Winter, Climate change, Volcanic eruptions, they might also help you.

I would assume the most damaging part of the Zentradi Attack on the Earth would be the massive introduction of particulate mater in the the atmosphere which would block out a large part of the Sun's energy for a months damaging the surviving plant life.

Didn't a significant portion of the Amazon Rain forest survive so I would assume the areas of devastation would be centered on population centers and heavy industry since they would be the most easy to discern targets.

The Zentradi main experience would be in targeting the Supervision/Inspection Army colony worlds, and Bases and they would need to element of surprise meaning hit the City's, Factories, and power plants, and Air fields first to prevent them from fleeing to space.

I would assume that small plants might start to take root quickly, and start to spread out from patches of survivors also plants that can use Nitrogen from the air like clover will make the bulk of the new plant life as they would be able to grow on the baron parts that were glazed over by the weapons fire.

Edited April 22, 2010 by miles316

[Gubaba]

What is a "particulate mater"?

[David Hingtgen]

Ash, dust, etc.

[Chronocidal]

Considering how green the area was around the ship Khamjin was working on repairing, I don't think the devastation was total. I'd want to think they focused on killing population centers above all else, so any fairly well established civilization would probably be gone, at least as far as cities.

On the other hand, some undeveloped portions of the world might have remained relatively intact. It's never addressed directly in the series, except for the shots you see of the surviving jungle. If areas like that survived, I could imagine some large sections of Africa, Southeast Asia, South America, and Australia could have remained relatively habitable (at least as habitable as rainforests, deserts, and jungles are to start with).

I don't remember exactly what the plan was when they attacked Earth.. was it officially "sterilized" or did they just target humans in particular?

As far as DYRL goes though, there seemed to be really nothing left, with radiation to boot (I don't remember the beams used in the tv series being inherently radioactive).

[RedWolf]

Well if anything either the Pink Peckers or Akiko have a cabin in the woods.

As for DYRLverse by Macross II's time the environment recovered.

[macross_fan99]

@chronocidal You're right, there were some jungles left in the series, I'd forgotten about that. I'm not sure if that is the story to follow though since in Macross Plus the Macross is the DYRL version. But I guess it would have to be the tv version or the radiation would make it impossible to live on Earth.

@Redwolf Macross 2 is not canon so that is not a good source of info in this case.

I was hoping something would maybe have been said by SK at some point, but I guess its up to us to interpret as we see fit. I've always found it kind of depressing that after all that fighting the remaining humans were left with scorched Earth as their reward. I would like the planet to at least heal so they could start from scratch if you will.

Realistically though, the amount of dust that would have been sent into the air would have blocked out the sun for years and those explosions would probably have burned off most of the earth's oxygen leaving them with nothing to breathe. With no trees or marine plant life to produce oxygen I don't think life would ever be possible for many decades, maybe even centuries.

[Seto Kaiba]

As far as DYRL goes though, there seemed to be really nothing left, with radiation to boot (I don't remember the beams used in the tv series being inherently radioactive).

Now, if memory serves (and Sketchley, correct me if I'm misremembering here) Chronicle suggested that the Earth seen during DYRL was what Earth looked like circa 2031, so it seems that the planet wasn't exactly recovering swiftly. It jives with the landscapes we see in Macross Plus... a barren, cratered desert. Of course, we don't really get a full picture of the postwar landscape in any of the Macross shows, so we don't know whether or not the planet is entirely barren, or whether, as in the TV series, there were areas of forest and such that were largely undamaged.

As for DYRLverse by Macross II's time the environment recovered.

Um... your basis for this assertion is what? Just as in the main continuity, we only see a narrow slice of Earth's surface in Macross II... just the city, which was built from salvaged Zentradi warships, the artificial island serving as U.N. Forces HQ, and Culture Park... all artificially cultivated areas.

[RedWolf]

Um... your basis for this assertion is what? Just as in the main continuity, we only see a narrow slice of Earth's surface in Macross II... just the city, which was built from salvaged Zentradi warships, the artificial island serving as U.N. Forces HQ, and Culture Park... all artificially cultivated areas.

No visual evidence that it isn't as bad as 80 years before where the sky is dark and apocalyptic. Total recovery to pre-Space War 1? No. But the fact Earth is livable compared to the depiction in DYRL says 80 years of progress getting Earth back to its feet again.

Plus do you really think after the war they wouldn't try to bring back the environment?

Thing is unlike you I see on screen evidence as canon than just relying only on published material.

[SIGHUP]

You might want to look at some books like "the World After People" I think thats what it is called which depicts how the Earth would respond if Humanity vanished that might help you imagine.

I know it isn't the same thing also books on Nuclear Winter, Climate change, Volcanic eruptions, they might also help you.

I would assume the most damaging part of the Zentradi Attack on the Earth would be the massive introduction of particulate mater in the the atmosphere which would block out a large part of the Sun's energy for a months damaging the surviving plant life.

You're thinking of "Life After People."

[Vepariga]

the earth probably would never recover fully from the assault, there will always be vast dead zones all over the place and only the major citys would have population, being that most of the earths populous was wiped out aswell. Over years humans will only be city folk,the ground would probably not be able to sustain crops due to the radiation.

the grass in Mac Plus is probably synthetic kooch. lol

Edited April 23, 2010 by Vepariga

[DrStrangelove]

Given how Khamjin's gun destroyer was nearly covered in growth in a span of less than 18 months the jungle seen was likely part of the earth reclamation cloning project mentioned in the macross chronology which included plants.

Edited April 23, 2010 by DrStrangelove

[Seto Kaiba]

the earth probably would never recover fully from the assault, there will always be vast dead zones all over the place and only the major citys would have population, being that most of the earths populous was wiped out aswell. Over years humans will only be city folk,the ground would probably not be able to sustain crops due to the radiation.

Eh... it's possible the Earth's environment could eventually recover from the damage caused by the orbital bombardment during Space War 1. If left to its own devices it could hundreds of thousands, or millions, of years to sort itself out, but as humanity is giving it a helping hand, it could whittle that down to mere centuries. I don't think the radiation is a big issue, since they don't play it up as though it's at a harmful level in DYRL. Sterilization of the soil by the heat and radiation was probably a bigger issue for the reclamation effort. If the planet was completely unrecoverable, the U.N. would probably have ordered the ~1,000,000 survivors of the war to evacuate offworld to Apollo Base and the space colony clusters.

No visual evidence that it isn't as bad as 80 years before where the sky is dark and apocalyptic. Total recovery to pre-Space War 1? No. But the fact Earth is livable compared to the depiction in DYRL says 80 years of progress getting Earth back to its feet again.

So, in short... your "evidence" that the Earth's environment has recovered by the events of Macross II is that the OVA doesn't depict any of the blasted wasteland seen in DYRL? I hate to break it to you, but true to form your assertion is nothing more than speculation with no basis in fact. In both Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song, those areas of the planet seen in the game fall into two categories: "city" and "blasted wasteland". The city is shown as having plenty of artificially-cultivated plant life, but outside of that the planet seems to be no better off than it was back around 2010. Barring the few seconds of dogfight over the ocean, all of Macross II's Earth-side events occur in an area barely 100km in diameter. You never see any other part of the planet except that tiny area containing the city, the artificial island housing U.N. Spacy headquarters, and Culture Park. To put it in perspective for you, that little parcel of land you're claiming is proof that the planet's environment recovered is less than 10,000 square kilometers... less than 0.002% of the Earth's total surface area.

Thing is unlike you I see on screen evidence as canon than just relying only on published material.

No, the problem here is that you present your theories as though they were facts, and don't bother to check to see if the conclusions you've arrived at are accurate. The published material and animation are two sides of the same coin, and I don't ignore either one. In this case, you're jumping to a conclusion that isn't supported by the animation or the printed materials.

[JB0]

I don't remember exactly what the plan was when they attacked Earth.. was it officially "sterilized" or did they just target humans in particular?

As far as DYRL goes though, there seemed to be really nothing left, with radiation to boot (I don't remember the beams used in the tv series being inherently radioactive).

I think the plan was total sterilization. They just didn't get to finish the job because some teenie-bopper pop star got in the way and started singing about love and peace on the army's communications channels using comm frequencies provided by a bunch of dirty hippie traitors. (Tangentally, the Minmay attack would be devastating just from the havoc it'd wreak on coordinated fleet maneuvers, even if you ignore the psychological effect totally. No one can talk to anyone else without shouting over My Boyfriend's a Pilot, 0-G Love, and company.).

Remember, they scoured a planet to a cratered, atmosphere-less husk while they had Hikaru, Kakizaki, and Misa captive, just to prove they could.

Why would they HOLD BACK on a planet with a verified threat to the Zentradi's very existence?

As far as radioactivity... that's actually to be expected. High-output particle beams are going to screw things up no matter how you slice it. They're going to hit something, and when they do, they're going to mess up it's atomic structure.

While we can't guarantee that zentradi ship-mounted "beam weapons" are the same tech as the "electron beams" seen on the smaller craft like the amazing exploding reguld, it's safe to assume they're SOME kind of particle weapon.

Matter and energy are inextricably intertwined, at least for physics as we know it. Laser beams, electron beams, neutron beams, positron beams, gravity beams, lead ion beams, whatever. There's always a particle carrying the energy.

I would expect the same to be true even of "super-dimension-energy" cannons. Whatever the rules are in fold space, once that energy's brought over to our universe it's gotta play by our rules to at least some degree. *

Even ignoring all that, you can argue the energy transmitted through the beam was enough to initiate fusion at the impact sites(it was clearly enough to generate some kind of explosion, and massive ones at that). That'd get you some radioactive isotopes fast.

So long story short... yes, it's plausible to generate radiation without being radioactive.

...

Ya know, I'm actually impressed that they're still depicting the Earth as a barren wasteland. It's rare enough even outside cartoons that there's long-term devastation that can't be fixed.

For even Frontier, iffy as it was at points, to be leaving Earth largely barren and not just going "yeah, we totally cloned trees and grass and bushes and flowers like twenty years ago" is nothing short of astonishing.

*Having said that bit about obeying OUR laws of physics, I'd love to see them try and explain the barrier system, just so I can laugh at the technobabble.

Handwaving it like they did is really the best they can do in that situation.

Edited April 23, 2010 by JB0

[Seto Kaiba]

As far as radioactivity... that's actually to be expected. High-output particle beams are going to screw things up no matter how you slice it. They're going to hit something, and when they do, they're going to mess up it's atomic structure.

Actually, the terminology used would seem to suggest that, like the U.N. Spacy's shipboard beam turrets, the Zentradi's shipboard turrets are scaled-down versions of the heavy converging beam cannon (AKA a super dimension energy cannon, like the Macross's main gun). If this is the case, they're shooting beams of super dimension energy rather than charged particles. The result is the same insofar as leaving behind radiation.

I do agree that, given what Bodolza says when he shows that video of an orbital bombardment to Hikaru and company, that the intent was probably to sterilize the entire planet in short order, and they just didn't get that far.

[RedWolf]

No, the problem here is that you present your theories as though they were facts, and don't bother to check to see if the conclusions you've arrived at are accurate. The published material and animation are two sides of the same coin, and I don't ignore either one. In this case, you're jumping to a conclusion that isn't supported by the animation or the printed materials.

You have to accept the fact a regular viewer is not you and will not fit your ideal standards of being dependent on published materials. I don't watch Macross for the stats or trivia. I watch it for the story.

[eugimon]

the earth probably would never recover fully from the assault, there will always be vast dead zones all over the place and only the major citys would have population, being that most of the earths populous was wiped out aswell. Over years humans will only be city folk,the ground would probably not be able to sustain crops due to the radiation.

the grass in Mac Plus is probably synthetic kooch. lol

not likely, the level of destruction shown in DYRL wouldn't come close to what would actually be needed to sterilize the earth.

[sketchley]

not likely, the level of destruction shown in DYRL wouldn't come close to what would actually be needed to sterilize the earth.

True, true. The effects would have to penetrate through the 30 to 50 km thick crust to completely sterilize the Earth (if not further, if there are no extremophiles living in the upper mantle and deeper). As for global destruction that kills almost all life on (the surface of) the Earth, and how long it takes to recover, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_ev...tinction_events

With the Permian-Triassic extinction event and the Ordovician-Silurian extinction events being the most relevant (former for the sheer loss of life, and later for the distant similarity to the scenario under discussion - ie: something that effects the entire globe equally).

[Kelsain]

I gotta agree w/ JBO, that they probably would've tried to sterilize* Earth. The demonstration Bodolza performed for H, M & K in the TV show was a staged event. The fleet appeared to be massed & positioned & merely awaited a fire command. On Earth, it was a combat situation, more impulsive, and not as consistent or long of a pummeling that the demo-world received.

*Not FULLY sterilized, per sketchley, but good enough to feel secure for an Aeon or so...

I'm also impressed that the writers never "fixed" the problem easily, as you'd see in Star Trek or something.

Based on SDFM's depiction of the Amazon, it would appear that the Zentraedi fleet targeted heavily-populated landmasses first, like N. America & Europe. They might've given Alaska a break on the first volley, but then hit it big-time after the Grand Cannon fired. So, some regions might have come through relatively unscathed, while others became the barren crater-fields seen elsewhere.

As DYRL? is considered a "movie," I look at it as an over-dramatization. H&M sounded like they were LITERALLY the only 2 people alive on Earth. Other parts of the continuity discount that.

I think an important distinction to be made is the notion of "recovery." Will the ecosystem grow and expand to fill in the desolation? Yes, no doubt, in time. Afterall, all land was devoid of life until the Ordovician, more than 80% of the planet's history. Will it be THE SAME as what was there before? Most probably not.

PS: Please forgive my frequent use of "air quotes" here. "I'm sorry."

and OT: While it was kinda nifty, the biggest problem I had with Life After People was how it began. It was like the friggin Rapture or something, instead of some indication of decline. "Oh no, the family dog's locked in the house!! It better figure out how to open the door or it'll be dead before you can say Kibbles & Bits!"

Edited April 23, 2010 by Kelsain

[Chronocidal]

Having said that bit about obeying OUR laws of physics, I'd love to see them try and explain the barrier system, just so I can laugh at the technobabble.

Handwaving it like they did is really the best they can do in that situation.

Actually.. given how the fold system works, I think the barrier is one of the simpler things to explain, at least in the sense it was used in the tv series.

For a long time, it looked like the PPB system (trackball interface and all) was actually more like a mobile wormhole than a shield. If you think about it that way, as if you're literally holding open a fold, and moving the entry point to intercept weapon impacts, it makes a decent amount of sense. They were just folding the incoming beams and missiles elsewhere in space. It even works on the larger scale attacks, if you imagine that they were forcibly folding portions of the ships they punched with the field (the PPB punch from Mac+ though treated it entirely like an energy barrier).

In terms of where it came from... well, the fold system disappeared, leaving some sort of energy field behind. Considering it happened during a fold, that could essentially mean that the fold they entered might have never entirely closed.

It still is a bit of handwavium at best, considering the fold system itself is so vaguely defined in terms of real physics. But after seeing Frontier, I'm starting to think the PPB is essentially a small scale fold fault, or something similar. That concept in itself isn't very well described to begin with, but if we make the comparison to the idea of a "hyperspace" dimension similar to the Star Wars universe, I think it's supposed to be approximately what a "mass shadow" is in the EU... basically, an obstruction in real space that has secondary effects in hyperspace.

The Vajra queen's massive spherical barrier toward the end of the last episode seemed to be similar to the one the SDF-1 generated (although stable), and I think it was called a "fold barrier" or something. In order to get through it, the Vajra drones had to open a fold to the other side of the barrier, and it had already been established that they could fold through faults.

Anywho, PPB theory is probably better reserved for another topic.

What I kind of wonder about in terms of what plants and animals survived... I don't think the idea was even really mainstream at the time the tv series aired, but aren't there storehouses of various seed types stored in random remote locations? I don't know whether they contain samples of animal DNA as well, but you could argue that after learning about aliens existing, it'd be common sense to make a storehouse containing all sorts of backups in case the Earth was toasted.

Of course, the SDF-1 naturally was carrying enough sample material to recreate pretty much anything that originally existed on the island (considering how much of the island and ocean it dragged with it into space). Assuming Zentraedi cloning techniques just need a sample of DNA, it'd probably be simple to start mass producing any lifeform that got sucked into space with the ship.

Now, even assuming you could theoretically clone a majority of the important plants and animals from Earth.. what I really wonder is whether those species were transplanted to other planets directly. Both Eden and Lux were shown to have distinct lifeforms of their own, even though they were relatively similar to Earth in most ways. It'd take some interesting tricks to force Earth animals to adapt to new planets.

Part of me thinks though that they may have tried to salvage what DNA samples they could, even from the burned out Earth. It's probably very far-fetched, but having to mix and match bits of what they found could explain things like the hippo-cows.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Chronocidal

[JB0]

Actually, the terminology used would seem to suggest that, like the U.N. Spacy's shipboard beam turrets, the Zentradi's shipboard turrets are scaled-down versions of the heavy converging beam cannon (AKA a super dimension energy cannon, like the Macross's main gun). If this is the case, they're shooting beams of super dimension energy rather than charged particles. The result is the same insofar as leaving behind radiation.

See the long talky bit. There's simply no way, under the modern understanding of physics, for energy to exist without some form of associated particle. Even if it's import energy.

Super-dimension energy is going to have to play by our rules once it's in our dimension.

I suppose we can Trek it and throw technobabble at the problem.

Say it creates a brief dimensional rift across the beam path? But that doesn't fit the animated effect, which shows an impact with a force primarily in the direction of fire. Hmmm...

String theory. That's it. It's an application of string theory. Clearly the directional effect of the blast is because closer strings will be affected before more distant strings.

The Macross is a giant guitar pick plucking the strings of its enemies. And THAT is why music is the ultimate weapon. BOMBAA!

Crisis averted. Sort of.

Actually.. given how the fold system works, I think the barrier is one of the simpler things to explain, at least in the sense it was used in the tv series.

For a long time, it looked like the PPB system (trackball interface and all) was actually more like a mobile wormhole than a shield. If you think about it that way, as if you're literally holding open a fold, and moving the entry point to intercept weapon impacts, it makes a decent amount of sense. They were just folding the incoming beams and missiles elsewhere in space. It even works on the larger scale attacks, if you imagine that they were forcibly folding portions of the ships they punched with the field (the PPB punch from Mac+ though treated it entirely like an energy barrier).

That's actually an interesting defensive approach.

How demoralizing would it be for your enemy to attack you, and watch their beams hit you, blast out the other side... and you're completely unscathed?

But... right from the first appearance. missiles exploded against barrier disks.

Maybe it "bends" the fold rift, creating a destructive warp in space instead of an actual fold? But that doesn't explain why the disks dissipate momentarily after they take a hit.

In the end, it's just one more sci-fi program where shields don't make a heckuva lot of sense.

In terms of where it came from... well, the fold system disappeared, leaving some sort of energy field behind. Considering it happened during a fold, that could essentially mean that the fold they entered might have never entirely closed.

Yeah, I took the "energy" to be a permanent rift to fold space(which I assume to be the same place "super dimension energy" comes from.

Which also explains the interference with the "super dimension energy" cannon, if they both use the same source of energy. The methods of manipulating the energy into a barrier would, logically, interfere with manipulating those same energies into a beam.

It still is a bit of handwavium at best, considering the fold system itself is so vaguely defined in terms of real physics. But after seeing Frontier, I'm starting to think the PPB is essentially a small scale fold fault, or something similar. That concept in itself isn't very well described to begin with, but if we make the comparison to the idea of a "hyperspace" dimension similar to the Star Wars universe, I think it's supposed to be approximately what a "mass shadow" is in the EU... basically, an obstruction in real space that has secondary effects in hyperspace.

The Vajra queen's massive spherical barrier toward the end of the last episode seemed to be similar to the one the SDF-1 generated (although stable), and I think it was called a "fold barrier" or something. In order to get through it, the Vajra drones had to open a fold to the other side of the barrier, and it had already been established that they could fold through faults.

Anywho, PPB theory is probably better reserved for another topic.

Actually, the barrier doesn't really rate a topic. There's so little info that it's just random speculation. But it's fun enough to hijack every other thread it comes up in for a few posts even if it IS all rampant baseless speculation!

And most of what we know is the omnidirectional barrier. They're implied to be the same tech, just applied different ways, though.

We know the ODB actually absorbs part of the energy applied and stores it(presumably to be radiated later. Maybe even to power the shields during a lull in the combat), while part of it "washes over" the bubble without being absorbed.

And in the event of an overload, the shield generator room(at the centerpoint of the sphere?) AND everything outside the shield is in incredible danger, but everything between the generator and the shield bubble is safe.

Maybe the disks can use a lower deflection percentage because they're being exposed to less energy overall, so absorption to the point of overload isn't a large issue(I'd consider deflection sub-optimal since it raises a risk of a deflected beam injuring someone on your side).

Heck, maybe that's why they dissipate after being hit. They cut power to the impacted disk briefly to allow it to discharge the absorbed energy safely.

Part of me thinks though that they may have tried to salvage what DNA samples they could, even from the burned out Earth. It's probably very far-fetched, but having to mix and match bits of what they found could explain things like the hippo-cows.

Doctor Grant, Doctor Satler. Welcome to Cenozoic park.

[taksraven]

If anything, I would be surprised if after events like that, anybody elected to stay on earth once planets like Eden became available as potential homes? And then, why would you bother to do any more serious reconstruction of Earth?

Taksraven

[JB0]

If anything, I would be surprised if after events like that, anybody elected to stay on earth once planets like Eden became available as potential homes? And then, why would you bother to do any more serious reconstruction of Earth?

Taksraven

Sentiment. No matter what happens, it's still home.

Of course, it COULD be turned into a giant shipyard to supply rapid-fire colony missions, but... you'd still need colonists.

[taksraven]

Sentiment. No matter what happens, it's still home.

Of course, it COULD be turned into a giant shipyard to supply rapid-fire colony missions, but... you'd still need colonists.

I always suspected that cloning technology had been used to produce the high number of colonists needed to crew the various colonists. What are your thoughts....?

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

You have to accept the fact a regular viewer is not you and will not fit your ideal standards of being dependent on published materials. I don't watch Macross for the stats or trivia. I watch it for the story.

Like I said, even if you were just going by the animation you'd find it pretty self-evident that you're only seeing a tiny, artificially-cultivated part of the planet... hell, the most heavily wooded part of the planet we see is Culture Park, and that place couldn't get any more obviously artificial, what with the Leaning Tower of Pisa, Great Wall of China, and the Flavian Amphitheatre being within eyeshot of each other.

As DYRL? is considered a "movie," I look at it as an over-dramatization. H&M sounded like they were LITERALLY the only 2 people alive on Earth. Other parts of the continuity discount that.

Eh... that might be a bit extreme... the blasted landscape in DYRL was indeed genuine Earth, albeit about twenty-one years after the fact according to Chronicle. The depopulation bit might've been for drama's sake, or Hikaru and Misa didn't know where the other Grand Cannons were, since that's where most of the refugees were. ('course in context, they wouldn't have gone to Alaska since there was a fairly large city there at the time the movie was filmed)

See the long talky bit. There's simply no way, under the modern understanding of physics, for energy to exist without some form of associated particle. Even if it's import energy.

Super-dimension energy is going to have to play by our rules once it's in our dimension.

;-) Welcome to light sci-fi... kindly check your real-world physics at the door.

Seriously though, since it's exotic energy harvested from another dimension it might not need to play by the same rules things native to our own dimension do. Mr March and I had a discussion on that note, and one of the theories proposed was that the super dimension energy cannons were a sort of focused "eruption" of super dimension space into normal space. Any way you shake it, the big ones occupy the same class of destructive potential as nukes. We can always do the Treknobabble thing and assign it some exotic extradimensional particle too if need be. It's all good so long as we differentiate between them and normal particle beam guns like those of the VF-4, Tomahawk, etc.

Sentiment. No matter what happens, it's still home.

Of course, it COULD be turned into a giant shipyard to supply rapid-fire colony missions, but... you'd still need colonists.

True... but after a little while Eden was launching colony fleets too, one of which was Macross Galaxy.

(While the colonization graphic in the Macross Frontier series might not be entirely accurate, it does list Macross-6, -9, -11, -14, -15, -17, -20, -21, and -23 as being launched from Eden, and according to the Macross Generation drama CD, the Eden-developed Macross-9 was also the pioneer of the bioplant system)

Edited April 24, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Macross_Fanboy]

Well, it's been a while since I looked at the chronology on the good ol' Compendium, but the UN had its Apollo lunar base where it built the SDF-2 and I believe developed the VF-4. I also recall there being survivors on Grand Cannon construction sites around the world. So I'm sure among other things, lots of plants and animals where probably on station as experiments, much like what is being done on today's ISS. Besides what was onboard the SDF-1, reclaiming the Earth was definitely easier with those resources, but like others here, I believe it'll take a long time to get back lots of vegetation and life beyond the cities and the few patches of rain forests that survived the bombardment. If there was any radiation, it would have been from destroyed nuclear reactors and weapons.

[Bri]

After the zentradi attacked the Earth the planet turned into a barren wasteland, but what is the current status during the Frontier timeline?

In the original Macross there are a few shots that show some treens and grass but for the most part everything is barren

During Macross Plus Isamu and Guld were fighting over barren terrain so the planet had not recovered but I was wondering if there had ever been anything mentioned regarding the conditions of the environment. Has the planet returned to being a green planet like Eden or does it continue to be a dead planet.

Plot wise Macross uses the near destruction of earth as an incentive for humanity to spread out across space as a survival strategy. Whatever happens to the planet after really isn't that important. The current status of earth might be left pretty much undetermined until it is needed as a future story setting.

Interestingly the question whether earths resources can sustain humanity does not seem to occur in Macross and becomes a non issue after the acquisition of the manufacturing satellite. I guess the vagueness about earth, the reconstruction etc. is intentional as in Macross the story focus is pretty much always on travels and journeys and not so much about origins and destinations.

[Mr March]

Just a few random thread observations...

I wouldn't praise the writers of Macross fiction too much for sustaining the extinction of Earth. While Earth itself remains believably devastated even 50 years after Space War I, Kawamori and Co. basically sidestepped the need for a population in the sequels by stretching the concept of mass cloning. Even if we accept the role of Zentradi cloning technology and the Factory Satellite industrial capacity in the rebuilding of Earth, realistically it would have taken the tiny surviving population generations to understand and repair such a massive facility as the Factory Satellite. It would have also required a significant industrial base (which was gone post-SWI) from which to begin the initial overhaul and operation of the Factory Satellite to the point where mass cloning and fleet building was practical. And naturally, the Zentradi wouldn't have been any help. But basically all that is just conveniently overlooked background to serve the Macross Plus character story, so we don't typically think about the effects of Earth's condition on the sequels

IMO, I can't see the Pin-Point Barrier system acting as anything other than a typical sci-fi shield, just with a different name, function and origin unique to Macross fiction. It's described as a "barrier" not a mobile portal. All the anime series also clearly show weapon strikes (mecha scale or ship scale) deflect and cascade off a pin-point barrier or full barrier shield. If the shield were a portal, incoming attacks would simply be absorbed/disappear into the barrier. It would also be functionally impossible to breach or overload the pin-point barrier if the effect was simply maintaining an open portal. One would have to disrupt the portal itself by the same process used to generate the portal...a fold-countermeasure system if you will. Further, if pin-point barriers are merely portals to Super Dimension Space and can be generated/sustained by something as small a VF, what would then be the need for a fold booster? I agree that fold defense (and actually offense) would be a great Macross concept. I've actually commented several times about "fold missiles" being a logical progression of technology in Macross. But I don't see the pin-point barrier as a defensive fold portal in action in the Macross series.

As Seto mentioned regarding the super dimension energy cannons, the beams from those weapons are described as super dimension energy. Basically, the gun appears to be focused displacements or incursions of SD energy into our universe. This might explain why such an elaborate collection/collimation process is needed when firing (or focusing) that SD energy for a beam. As for the nature of SD energy and it's interaction, it could be argued in many ways and I personally have no answers. However, I will say that to my mind I see both a high energy thermal reaction and a kinetic reaction when a SD energy beam strikes a target. To me that suggests a particle with at least some mass.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Mr March

[miles316]

Just a few random thread observations...

I wouldn't praise the writers of Macross fiction too much for sustaining the extinction of Earth. While Earth itself remains believably devastated even 50 years after Space War I, Kawamori and Co. basically sidestepped the need for a population in the sequels by stretching the concept of mass cloning. Even if we accept the role of Zentradi cloning technology and the Factory Satellite industrial capacity in the rebuilding of Earth, realistically it would have taken the tiny surviving population generations to understand and repair such a massive facility as the Factory Satellite. It would have also required a significant industrial base (which was gone post-SWI) from which to begin the initial overhaul and operation of the Factory Satellite to the point where mass cloning and fleet building was practical. And naturally, the Zentradi wouldn't have been any help. But basically all that is just conveniently overlooked background to serve the Macross Plus character story, so we don't typically think about the effects of Earth's condition on the sequels

It was shown that in the two years after the end of the First Space War Many Zentradi were working it factories assembling complex electronic devices so I would assume they would be of some use in the reconditioning of the Factory Satellite even if it was gust doing grunt work.

The main obstacle to rebuilding the Factory Satellite would be manpower not knowledge which they would have many hundreds of people on the Moon, and orbital colony who would have a Basic knowledge of OverTech.

The Factory Satellite was in operation for a few Hundred thousand years to Four Hundred thousand years and it was only just showing signs of breaking down, and was still able to sustain a million + fleet of ships still prosecuting a war.

I would assume sustaining a simi confortable life style for a few million people, and a modest cloning operation, and building One or Two colony ships a year would be Child's play compared to its former job.

I seriously Doubt that the Cloning could rebuild the Human Race to its Pre SW1 levels in fifty years; it might be possible to double the rate of reproduction, or to replace the people that leave the Earth each year, or loses by the military.

I think I will start or see if their is a thread for cloning to discussed this little known facet or Macross.

[Mr March]

Yes indeed, again that was a matter of glossing over the fiction in order to serve the story. Less than 2 years later and boom, a magically highly trained workforce. Effectively, the Zentradi were described as children and they would have taken a lifetime to build an educational background necessary to even begin training for an adult vocation. The Factory Satellite, the largest artificial industrial base ever seen, barely functional and tooled ONLY for standardized weapons, somehow almost instantly repaired, retooled and building at a capacity GREATER than that of the whole pre-war Earth despite less than one one-hundredth of a percent of the population necessary to make it so. As I said, it's the initial hurdle that is the biggest logic leap. I've no problem accepting the post-war buildup achieved via cloning and the Factory Satellite. But if we're praising the writers and the fiction for continuity of post-war Earth and it's condition, how initial hurdles were overcome almost instantly to create the setting for the sequels is not a strength of the fiction.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Mr March

[VF-18S Hornet]

Actually, the terminology used would seem to suggest that, like the U.N. Spacy's shipboard beam turrets, the Zentradi's shipboard turrets are scaled-down versions of the heavy converging beam cannon (AKA a super dimension energy cannon, like the Macross's main gun). If this is the case, they're shooting beams of super dimension energy rather than charged particles. The result is the same insofar as leaving behind radiation.

I do agree that, given what Bodolza says when he shows that video of an orbital bombardment to Hikaru and company, that the intent was probably to sterilize the entire planet in short order, and they just didn't get that far.

That's beacause of the firing of the Grand Cannon wiped out half of the fleet before they could recharge their weapons, a massive attack like that would most likely be a slight drain on their power systems. Plus it caught them by surprise.

[macross_fan99]

Alright, so I just went through the last episode of Macross Plus again trying to get a good look at the Earth and there doesn't seem to be any vegetation anywhere. All the shots of the planet when Isamu is entering the atmosphere are blue and brown. This would seem to follow the DYRL story more than the tv series since in the tv series they at least mentioned that some forests had survived.

Now about this cloning, is this actually confirmed somewhere or is this all speculation? And if they are cloning people wouldn't they have a very small pool to choose from. There weren't exactly many survivors after the zentradi attack.

And I wouldn't look too much into the finer details of the workforce and such. If they had wanted the series to make sense they would have kept the whole population together so they could be easily protected instead of spreading them out all over the place. And why not move to where there was still vegetation so they would have soil to plant and food to eat? The original series is full of little things that don't make much sense.

[Gubaba]

Now about this cloning, is this actually confirmed somewhere or is this all speculation? And if they are cloning people wouldn't they have a very small pool to choose from. There weren't exactly many survivors after the zentradi attack.

Its never mentioned directly in the show itself, but it's referred to in many of the books about Macross, most recently Macross Chronicle, where it was discussed at length.