The PS3 thread

[Duke Togo]

Just a head's up, my personal + bank card info was used to make a clone card which someone tried to use yesterday. Could be a coincidence of course...I suppose.

But I hope whoever hacked the PS user data gets burned. If you don't like sony, that's one thing. Screwing the 70million users? Not cool.

Do you know where this attempt was made?

[Duke Togo]

Better safe than sorry; I just canceled my card and had a new one issued to me.

aka: I don't believe in coincidences.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Duke Togo

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Well I changed all my passwords to my email,ebay,amazon ect to be safe and called my bank to keep an eye out on my account. Hopefully, noting more will be needed. Wouldn't be the first time my card info was stolen.

[Keith]

Woot, new CC's for all!

[Chewie]

Again, whoever hacked the PSN could have targeted just about anything. They could have deleted the whole thing, they could disrupted it in several ways, etc. But specifically going after user info = the intent to sell it for profit/identity theft, etc. An attack on that info isn't an attack on Sony, it's an attack on users of the service plain & simple. You can dance around the issue all you want, but it's not an argument you're going to win.

If anyone is dancing around anything, it's you. You seem to have skipped over anything I've said and just gone to "THEY HACKED IT AND THAT'S THAT."

The guy who hacked the PS3 HARDWARE, George Hotz (geohot), didn't hack the HARDWARE looking for personal information. He broke and posted the rootkit, making it possible to mod the system to play any game regardless of DRM or to use an OS on it or pretty much whatever anyone wanted to use the PS3 HARDWARE for. Again, just like jailbreaking an iPhone. Directly, it had NOTHING, again NOTHING to do with PSN getting hacked. It's two entirely different things.

What I said in regards to Sony being attacked was that they took NO EXTRA measures to ensure users' personal data would be safe when they KNEW there was a credible threat.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Chewie

[Renato]

I have a PSN account which I made for the sole purpose of downloading stupid free T-shirts to use on characters in Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker about a year ago. I don't think I've logged on since, and my Firmware is out of date anyway so I can't access it without updating even if I wanted to. I don't even remember my user name, certainly not my password. I'm sure that I didn't put my credit card details, though, since I knew I wasn't going to use PSN for buying crap.

My question is, what kind of details are stored? Are names and addresses required fields when signing up? Are there any other categories aside from those? I honestly don't remember anything, but I'd like to make sure just in case.

[bluemax151]

Are names and addresses required fields when signing up? Are there any other categories aside from those?

Yes, and yes.

"Sony said in a statement earlier this week that it believes user information including names, addresses, birth dates, email addresses, login names and passwords may have been exposed"

[Renato]

I wonder if my DOB was 1900.

[shiroikaze]

Looks like Kaz Hirai is giving a news conference tomorrow.

http://uk.kotaku.com/5797331/kaz-hirai-to-address-psn-breach-in-news-conference-tomorrow

Well, well, well... looks like we all know who the anti-chinese government sympathizer on this board is...

Google made me say it!

[Loop]

If anyone is dancing around anything, it's you. You seem to have skipped over anything I've said and just gone to "THEY HACKED IT AND THAT'S THAT."

The guy who hacked the PS3 HARDWARE, George Hotz (geohot), didn't hack the HARDWARE looking for personal information. He broke and posted the rootkit, making it possible to mod the system to play any game regardless of DRM or to use an OS on it or pretty much whatever anyone wanted to use the PS3 HARDWARE for. Again, just like jailbreaking an iPhone. Directly, it had NOTHING, again NOTHING to do with PSN getting hacked. It's two entirely different things.

What I said in regards to Sony being attacked was that they took NO EXTRA measures to ensure users' personal data would be safe when they KNEW there was a credible threat.

As far as Sony is concerned, yes I feel that they failed to secure customer information using some sort of encryption. I also feel that it was lame of them to not inform us on day one what really happened.

As far as Mr. Geohot goes, he did not provide or use a rootkit of any sorts to hack the PS3. He used methods that were found from Team Failoverf0w and created his own custom firmware which would allow you run unsigned code on the PS3, ie homebrew applications. George Hotz did not allow piracy in his custom firmware, in fact he went out of his way to deny piracy using his firmware. You may hear information suggesting that this was done because of the Geohot lawsuit vs Sony, but I believe they are unrelated although almost half a year ago some hackers were saying that the PSN was not secure and this same type of attack was possible and most likely would happen in the future. This attack was most likely performed purely for profit from some hacking/carding group. The real problem I see is that the information is getting all mixed up in the media and to people that don't really understand hacking/cracking.

Geohot and Graf_Chokolo vs Sony = Opening the system for users to do what they want with hardware that they bought and own. Freedom for a user to customize his or her PS3 hardware to run linux or homebrew applications. Sony opened the door to this issue by removing linux from the PS3. My first PS3 60GB model had it advertised on the box as a function of the system. They took that away from users by requiring you to update your system firmware to be able to play newer software titles and making you update the machine to access PSN. If you chose not to update you could have linux still, but you would pretty much have a useless system for gaming with newer titles. as far as I am concerned, If sony had not feared the system being hacked through the linux install and left the option there, the PS3 would still be unhacked. By taking linux away it made the hackers angry and in turn put the PS3 under the security microscope. The only thing that linux on the PS3 was missing was access to the RSX(Video) so the resolution was horrible and the 3d acceleration was disabled on the desktop. There were cry's for Sony to open up access to the GPU so users could have 3d acceleration on the desktop and this scared Sony. Then a group of hackers were looking for ways to access the GPU and a project sprung up, they were looking to create drivers to use the RSX GPU. I think this is the reason they removed linux altogether, causing the hackers to work in overdrive to find a way to use linux again. The PS3 Cell processor is an amazing piece of tech and can be used to rip through complex calculations and the hackers as they are called love that ability.

Anonymous vs Sony DDOS (Denial Of Service Attacks) campaign = Defending Geohot and Graf_Chokolos beliefs. Anonymous announced a long time ago that when they were denying paying customers access to PSN and that was not their goal and it was harming the consumer, thus the attacks ceased. The goal was to deny money to Sony through web sales by spamming the sites with too many requests from so many ip's that the sites could not serve the pages thus would directly affect sales.

New attacks/stolen customer information vs Sony = Criminals trying to gather as much information as possible of the millions of customers that Sony has for financial gains. As far as I am concerned Sony would like you to think that all these guys are in the same ranks which is totally untrue.

[Keith]

I'm really tired of this "by taking linx away" crap. it's as assinine as saying "Sony won't let me run Windows on my PS3." Yeah, difference is the feature "was" there, but for whatever reason, they decided to take it away, if I recall correctly, it was also hacker related. Bottom line, hacking a system goes against the terms of use. It's not a PC, it's a gaming console. This argument is way past stupid at this pont. There's absolutely no justification for what was done. Could Sony have beefed up their security more? Sure, I bet they very well could have. But the fault still lies with those that hacked & stole the info. Nothing Sony did "asked" for it. Nothing any user did "asked" for it.

[Loop]

I'm really tired of this "by taking linx away" crap. it's as assinine as saying "Sony won't let me run Windows on my PS3." Yeah, difference is the feature "was" there, but for whatever reason, they decided to take it away, if I recall correctly, it was also hacker related. Bottom line, hacking a system goes against the terms of use. It's not a PC, it's a gaming console. This argument is way past stupid at this pont. There's absolutely no justification for what was done. Could Sony have beefed up their security more? Sure, I bet they very well could have. But the fault still lies with those that hacked & stole the info. Nothing Sony did "asked" for it. Nothing any user did "asked" for it.

I was just pointing out that we have seperate issues at hand. And honestly, I think I should be able to do whatever I want with something that I have purchased..... I payed the money to buy the hardware and I did not see anything saying I am renting the hardware which in tern makes it mine. Sony did not market the product as a gaming console initially, marketed it as a media hub/computer with the ability to run linux and games when I originally bought in which was the release day. Even media sites like say Kotaku.com kept running articles asking if this thing is really a gaming console, because there were barely any games for it in the first 2 years. So all I can suggest to the users that wish to run linux on the console and play games is, buy 2 consoles. Run CFW on one machine for homebrew and keep one on current firmware for PSN/Gaming. PSN is blocked on hacked cosoles anyways. Every new firmware it will work for a few weeks then they take it away.

Sony never offered to let us run windows on the console so that point is moot if even an issue at all. All I'm saying is they have one of the only consumer PowerPC based CPU products on the market and that was one reason why I selected the PS3 over the Xbox 360 initially giving me the option to use the powerpc aspects of the system for hardcore number crunching. I just think that as a product matures you add features, not take them away.

I also never stated that the "users" asked to have their information stolen, like I said if you read my previous post these are separate issues and I though I laid it out as good as I can hoping you would realize what is really happening

I am not condoning "data theft" but I think a user has the right to do whatever he want's on a product he bought.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Loop

[Keith]

Simply put, you can do whatever you want with your console, just don't expect Sony to allow it to be used with their service once you do. Sony says "we're disabling linux with the next firmware update." If you want to keep it, don't update, but don't expect it to run on the PSN either. You want to turn it into a George Foreman grill? Go right on ahead, but again, don't expect it to play games afterwwards.

[Einherjar]

If the network was so vulnerable in the first place, what prevented hackers from doing all this damage sooner? Was the jailbraking of the PS3 and hacks following it just a coincidence?

[David Hingtgen]

IMHO "the hackers who want to homebrew" and this incident are almost completely separate. My guess is that as soon as it become known that it could be hacked and how, one of the criminal groups that commonly steals credit card info etc immediately went after PSN, as a source "ripe for the picking". They have no interest in the console or Sony or PSN itself, they just saw a really good way to get MILLIONS of account numbers/info.

[Loop]

IMHO "the hackers who want to homebrew" and this incident are almost completely separate. My guess is that as soon as it become known that it could be hacked and how, one of the criminal groups that commonly steals credit card info etc immediately went after PSN, as a source "ripe for the picking". They have no interest in the console or Sony or PSN itself, they just saw a really good way to get MILLIONS of account numbers/info.

Yes this is what I was saying. I still feel Sony should have manned up and told the public right away instead of waiting a week........

If the network was so vulnerable in the first place, what prevented hackers from doing all this damage sooner? Was the jailbraking of the PS3 and hacks following it just a coincidence?

I wish I could find the previous reports from 6 or so months ago, I was on some random hacking site where the story broke about the network being vulnerable to attack.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Loop

[taksraven]

Just waiting for the day that they try to make the expression "hacker" have the same sort of connotation as "terrorist".

[Hikuro]

Just waiting for the day that they try to make the expression "hacker" have the same sort of connotation as "terrorist".

They hadn't yet? .....Hm.

[CoryHolmes]

Just waiting for the day that they try to make the expression "hacker" have the same sort of connotation as "terrorist".

cf: Anonymous. If the harddrive fits...

[Renato]

Simply put, you can do whatever you want with your console, just don't expect Sony to allow it to be used with their service once you do. Sony says "we're disabling linux with the next firmware update." If you want to keep it, don't update, but don't expect it to run on the PSN either. You want to turn it into a George Foreman grill? Go right on ahead, but again, don't expect it to play games afterwwards.

Peh. So much for "it only does everything". Now it doesn't do anything.

[eugimon]

Peh. So much for "it only does everything". Now it doesn't do anything.

It's funny how consumers are so willing to accept this type of bullshit when it comes to electronics. Imagine if car manufacturers tried to pull this.

You want gas? Well first we're going to take your power steering away, just because we feel like it.

[Renato]

It's funny how consumers are so willing to accept this type of bullshit when it comes to electronics. Imagine if car manufacturers tried to pull this.

You want gas? Well first we're going to take your power steering away, just because we feel like it.

Yeah, I know. That's exactly what it feels like. I was planning to get a PS3 but I usually never buy things at first release, I always tend to wait a bit until they go down in price and/or gain a healthy software catalogue. Yet now that it's cheap, I find that there's no linux, no PS2 compatibility, no nuffin'. Just Bluray. It's a totally different product to what I was planning to buy.

Take a look at this (it may have been brought up before). I read this in the paper a few months back:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/105767-U-S-Air-Force-Finishes-PS3-Supercomputer-of-Epic-Proportions

Even the US military is "hacking" the PS3 to build sophisticated systems while saving Americans a bit of tax money, plus leaving less of a mark on the environment, too. Is Sony gonna come down like a ton of bricks on them, too, because they're not playing according to their rules??

The fact remains that the very thing that makes these consoles attractive to the consumer is their versatility, which is precisely what the almighty manufacturer is reducing bit by bit.

I certainly would not have bought a PSP if it could only play Macross Ace Frontier. That was what sealed the deal, but I would not have taken the plunge were it not for the fact that I could play my old SNES/PS1/Gameboy etc. games, read PDF files and watch Youtube on it. Heaven forbid you update the Firmware, though!

EDIT -- I'm going to quote the last few lines of that article here, for poignancy's sake:

The Condor Cluster might be a modern marvel of cheap supercomputing technology, but the Air Force was troubled by Sony's choice to remove the option to install Linux in a firmware update, making it harder to find replacement systems should a console break. If you've got an unboxed PS3 "Phat" laying around, keep the old firmware on that puppy and the U.S. military might make you an offer someday.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Renato

[mikeszekely]

It's funny how consumers are so willing to accept this type of bullshit when it comes to electronics. Imagine if car manufacturers tried to pull this.

You want gas? Well first we're going to take your power steering away, just because we feel like it.

Yeah. I have a friend who's a pretty big Sony fanboy, and I've already had this discussion with him. I'm even willing to concede a few points, like the idea that if you hacked your PS3 it's reasonable that Sony would want to keep you off PSN just in case you grand purpose was to cheat your way to the top of the Modern Warfare 2 leader boards.

But Sony was crossing a line when they removed Other OS. It would have been one thing if they stopped advertising it, and if they opted not to include it as a feature in future hardware revisions. But instead the decided to patch it out of existence on, as has been pointed out, consoles that had the feature advertised on the box. And no, the argument that "if you wanted to keep Linux, just don't update" doesn't really hold water, as new game releases require newer firmware. We're talking about a console that was advertised as being able to play games and run Linux, and then having to chose between one feature or the other. I mean, suppose you bought an iPod touch. It's advertised as being able to play music and video, as well as games from the Apple App Store. Suppose, at some point, Apple decided that if you want to keep getting new versions of Angry Birds Seasons, you had to consent to an update that removes it's ability to play back music. Would you take that lying down? And if not, why do you think it's ok for Sony to remove Other OS?

Sony crossed another line when they started suing Holtz and this graf fellow. While I do recall their being a EULA to get onto the PSN, I don't recall any contracting stating that I was licensing hardware from Sony when I bought my PS3. I believe I should be able to do what I want with my PS3, and believe they had a right to do the same. I believe they had a right to post info on how they did it same as they'd have a right to post info on how to replace the stock exhaust on an '05 Honda Civic (and I don't see Honda suing anyone for the truly fugly Civics I've seen cruising the area). Again, I think Sony is right to keep hacked consoles off PSN, but especially given the recent legal ruling that jailbreaking the iPhone is ok, I really feel that they were going to far when they said it was illegal to do it at all.

But, aside from both being labeled with the blanket term "hackers," I don't think the hackers who jailbroke the PS3 and the current PSN security breach are at all related. Sony needs to take responsibility for being asleep at the wheel on this one, but the perpetrators should be tracked down and punished to the fullest extent of the law.

[Loop]

It's funny that at the press conference they stated it was a known exploit that helped the hackers get through 3 firewalls......

[Gaijin]

But Sony was crossing a line when they removed Other OS. It would have been one thing if they stopped advertising it, and if they opted not to include it as a feature in future hardware revisions. But instead the decided to patch it out of existence on, as has been pointed out, consoles that had the feature advertised on the box. And no, the argument that "if you wanted to keep Linux, just don't update" doesn't really hold water, as new game releases require newer firmware. We're talking about a console that was advertised as being able to play games and run Linux, and then having to chose between one feature or the other. I mean, suppose you bought an iPod touch. It's advertised as being able to play music and video, as well as games from the Apple App Store. Suppose, at some point, Apple decided that if you want to keep getting new versions of Angry Birds Seasons, you had to consent to an update that removes it's ability to play back music. Would you take that lying down? And if not, why do you think it's ok for Sony to remove Other OS?

Which PS3's had Other OS advertised on the box? I only recall it in the manual and never on the boxes. I should go look at my old boxes. I won't debate on the issue, but where was it "advertised" on the boxes? I'm just curious.

Edit: I can't find it on either a 60GB or 20GB original box...did the later ones advertise it somewhere? I can't even find it mentioned in the manual/guides though I swore I read it there when I bought it...maybe it was the online guide I recall.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Gaijin

[Keith]

Other OS = Totally useless feature to begin with. Anyone buying a PS3 because they thought they could also use it as a PC could just as easily buy a cheapass netbook. Hell, go buy a freakin' Iphone, they're down to $50 now!

[Loop]

Other OS = Totally useless feature to begin with. Anyone buying a PS3 because they thought they could also use it as a PC could just as easily buy a cheapass netbook. Hell, go buy a freakin' Iphone, they're down to $50 now!

I think your missing the point about the Powerpc architecture. A good example is If I do folding at home on my Core i7 system that is clocked @ 4gz with 6GB of ram it will complete the work units slower than my PS3. The cell CPU can crunch numbers unlike anything else in my house. A netbook would be slower than both of these mentioned configs at the same task.

It looks like Sony is admitting to at least 10million users credit data being stolen out of 77 million.

I wonder what Sony's response to congress will be...... Did they even respond to the letter that was sent by Congress yet?

Edited May 2, 2011 by Loop

[mikeszekely]

Which PS3's had Other OS advertised on the box? I only recall it in the manual and never on the boxes. I should go look at my old boxes. I won't debate on the issue, but where was it "advertised" on the boxes? I'm just curious.

Edit: I can't find it on either a 60GB or 20GB original box...did the later ones advertise it somewhere? I can't even find it mentioned in the manual/guides though I swore I read it there when I bought it...maybe it was the online guide I recall.

My first PS3 60GB model had it advertised on the box as a function of the system.

I don't specifically recall if it was or was not. Loop said it was, no one refuted him, so I'm taking it at face value.

Other OS = Totally useless feature to begin with.

But it was a feature. And as Renato and Loop pointed out, there were uses for that feature.

Honestly, I'm not even arguing that it's a useless feature for most users. I know when I want Linux that my Ubuntu box runs faster (for most things). But I don't think you should just roll over and accept it when companies start removing features from hardware you already bought with software "updates", no matter how useless said features might be, because it sets a bad precedent.

[eugimon]

Like I said...

It's funny how consumers are so willing to accept this type of bullshit when it comes to electronics. Imagine if car manufacturers tried to pull this.

You want gas? Well first we're going to take your power steering away, just because we feel like it.

[Keith]

I just don't see how this is an issue. It's not even remotely similar to a car not using gas. It's Sony's right to dictate what type of software runs on their hardware. And the fact of the matter is, the other OS feature was "software." No hardware capabilities were gimped by the removal, it still plays games, it still plays Japanese import games, it still plays bluraysj, it still browses the internet, etc. Hell, they've added far more features than they've taken away.

-3D

-Picture in Picture

-HD audio

-XMB while playing game

-Friends List

-Home (arguably useless however)

-More video formats were added to the compatability list.

ETC. None of these things were listed "on the box" when the system was released.

[mikeszekely]

I just don't see how this is an issue. It's not even remotely similar to a car not using gas. It's Sony's right to dictate what type of software runs on their hardware. And the fact of the matter is, the other OS feature was "software."

So if Sony up and decided that, with the next firmware update, MGS4 would no longer be playable, you'd be ok with that? I mean, it's software, right?

[CoryHolmes]

So if Sony up and decided that, with the next firmware update, MGS4 would no longer be playable, you'd be ok with that? I mean, it's software, right?

No great loss there...

[Renato]

So if Sony up and decided that, with the next firmware update, MGS4 would no longer be playable, you'd be ok with that? I mean, it's software, right?

They took away the actual physical UMD drive on the PSP when they brought out the "go" edition, that's pretty much the same thing (actually, it's even worse). Oh, but they added more playable music formats, great, eh Keith???!!!!!11

[mikeszekely]

They took away the actual physical UMD drive on the PSP when they brought out the "go" edition, that's pretty much the same thing (actually, it's even worse). Oh, but they added more playable music formats, great, eh Keith???!!!!!11

Well, that's actually different. It's a hardware revision, and features added or removed during a hardware revision should be a known quantity before you make your purchase.

Removing features in a software update means you already bought it, you expected it to do certain things, and now it doesn't. It's shady the way Amazon deleting (ironically) purchased copies of 1984 off people's Kindles was... like once you bought it, they shouldn't be messing with it. They may have legitimate reasons behind their logic (security in Sony's case, and the fact that the publisher of the 1984 ebook didn't actually have the legal rights to publish an ebook of 1984), and it's reasonable to take some steps (not including Other OS in future hardware revisions, or removing 1984 from the Kindle store). They just went too far, is all.

[Gaijin]

Checked a couple more boxes. Other OS was never was advertised on the boxes at least not on the US packaging I've looked at.

Loop, do you still have that box that mentioned it?

Edited May 3, 2011 by Gaijin