Bandai 1/60 Scale DX Toy Thread Ver.7

[Funkenstein]

SWS - Special "Womens" Services.

[QuinJester]

(negotiator's armored vf-25s)

And I'd rather have an easily fixable shoulder crack than the whole back plate fall apart.

Compare the number of people with photos of broken back plates to the number of people with photos of broken shoulders, though

Sucks that the printing on this got screwed up. I'd imagine that Bandai'll end up shipping out replacement parts, if the past is any indication (Ozma's fast pack hips with the inverted paint).

Someday, someone'll make a perfect product that has no flaws and causes no grief to anyone. I don't think I'll live that long, though.

[eugimon]

Compare the number of people with photos of broken back plates to the number of people with photos of broken shoulders, though

Sucks that the printing on this got screwed up. I'd imagine that Bandai'll end up shipping out replacement parts, if the past is any indication (Ozma's fast pack hips with the inverted paint).

Someday, someone'll make a perfect product that has no flaws and causes no grief to anyone. I don't think I'll live that long, though.

Maybe if people started a new thread every time they found something wrong with their DX vf-25 like we do with yamato, we'd have more reports by now?

[ntsan]

Problem is people is more tolerant to bandai instead of yamato, so I doubt that will ever happen (the DX-25 probably lowered a lot of people's expectation lol)

[eriku]

Problem is people is more tolerant to bandai instead of yamato..

...they are? If anything I've noticed more tolerance to Yamato's problems.

[chen]

Oh I agree that these things should be perfect no matter who makes them but if you look at the history of making transforming toys from Macross from both companies, one company had been at it way longer than another one. Sure Bandai is a huge company and has extensive knowledge in building transforming toys but making transforming Macross mecha is a relative new adventure for them. It doesn't matter how much R&D you put into a product the real test is when it reaches production and is in the hands of fans that you can actually gauge what you did right and what you did wrong and improve on it, which Bandai obviously did with the VF-27. I'm not a diehard Bandai fan and I do think the Yamato products are beautiful but if you took the total of every single Macross item released from each company and factor in the faults Bandai really isn't doing that bad.

Edited April 5, 2010 by chen

[m0n5t3r]

clearly people here on both sides suffer from tunnel vision.

as for me, i hate 'em both for making me buy stuff i don't need that i occasionally need to ask a replacement for, tweak or apply superglue to plastic... ... i have needed some serious therapy from all the stress that they've put me through!

but they both do make me happy from time to time...

Edited April 5, 2010 by m0n5t3r

[anime52k8]

Oh I agree that these things should be perfect no matter who makes them but if you look at the history of making transforming toys from Macross from both companies, one company had been at it way longer than another one. Sure Bandai is a huge company and has extensive knowledge in building transforming toys but making transforming Macross mecha is a relative new adventure for them. It doesn't matter how much R&D you put into a product the real test is when it reaches production and is in the hands of fans that you can actually gauge what you did right and what you did wrong and improve on it, which Bandai obviously did with the VF-27. I'm not a diehard Bandai fan and I do think the Yamato products are beautiful but if you took the total of every single Macross item released from each company and factor in the faults Bandai really isn't doing that bad.

Actually, Bandai has been making transforming Macross mecha since the mid 80's. Yamato only got into Macross in 2000, so technically Bandai's been at it a lot longer...

[chen]

Actually Bandai took over production from a pre-existing toy in the 80's the 1/55's. They did create 1/72 scale Valkyrie for the HCM series and the VF-17/19 but if you look at actual released items per company Yamato has a longer history making Valks with far more released items.

Edited April 5, 2010 by chen

[anime52k8]

Actually Bandai took over production from a pre-existing toy in the 80's the 1/55's. They did create 1/72 scale Valkyrie for the HCM series and the VF-17/19 but if you look at actual released items per company Yamato has a longer history making Valks with far more released items.

"far more released items" sounds like a little bit of an overstatment...

Bandai's release history to date:

1/55 VF-1

1/72 HCM

hi-compact (SD) VF-1's

1/65 VF-19

1/65 VF-17

(technically the Banpresto VF-1's count too since Banpresto is owned by bandai)

1/60 DX VF-25

1/60 DX VF-25

1/60 DX quarter

1/100 hi-metal VF-19

1/100 VF-25

and yamato's history:

1/72 YF-19

1/72 YF-21

1/72 VF-11

1/60 v.1 VF-1

1/48 VF-1

1/100 VB-6

1/60 VF-0

1/60 SV-51

1/60 YF-19

1/60 YF-21

1/60 VF-11

1/60 v.2 VF-1

1/2000 SDF-1

that's 11 to 13 in favor of Yamato.

[chen]

Okay nice spin but if you count the whole 1/48 line as just one release then maybe, but please you know what I mean with-in each line there have been how many variations. Like I said twice before if you count the total of each individual release Yamato has by far released more stuff. By your counting then Hasbro just released one 3 3/4 G.I Joe figure.

[anime52k8]

Okay nice spin but if you count the whole 1/48 line as just one release then maybe, but please you know what I mean with-in each line there have been how many variations. Like I said twice before if you count the total of each individual release Yamato has by far released more stuff. By your counting then Hasbro just released one 3 3/4 G.I Joe figure.

why should each recolor of the same toy count as a unique release? the only difference between any two VF-1 releases are different paint/plastic color and maybe a new head. there's little to no new tooling or engineering going on between releases (in some cases it's just changing what color they load into the machine that applies the paint.)

for the purpose of comparing experience in designing and manufacturing toys, the number of times a company has released the same product with a different coat of paint isn't going to tell you much.

[GU-11]

IMO, technically Yamato has more experience in Valk design in that they've been constantly researching VF designs for the past decade, and have been making leaps and bounds. Bandai's designs, on the other hand, have stagnated since its last venture in the mid Nineties, with the Mac7 1/65 VF-19 Fire Kai and Blazer. IIRC, those did not sell too sell, and Bandai has stayed away from Macross merchandise until recently with the MF franchise.

All this time time when Bandai's washed its hands off Macross, Yamato's been one busy company, releasing VF after VF, each new one a massive improvement of the earlier one (hinge pin issues and QC problems notwithstanding).

AFAIC, Yamato's the turtle in that old turtle-races-bunny story, closing in the space between it and the napping bunny that is Bandai.

IMO, Yamato's biggest problem lies at the manufacturing end. While some of the design facets of the VF's are arguably questionable (fragile hinges held together with needle-thin metal pins), most of the customer complaints (mine, anyways) are about QC issues--glued parts that aren't supposed to be glued (my Gamlin VF-22S, dammit!), missing parts, etc.

While I understand that such complex figures will inevitably be more prone to mistakes and QC problems, some of the issues are a obviously caused by absentmindedness on the part of the factory workers. Some of these grunts should really be given a proper sounding off for these mistakes. I mean, we ARE paying hundreds of dollars for these things. An acceptable level of QC isn't too much to ask, is it?

[GU-11]

IMO, technically Yamato has more experience in Valk design in that they've been constantly researching VF designs for the past decade, and have been making leaps and bounds. Bandai's designs, on the other hand, have stagnated since its last venture in the mid Nineties, with the Mac7 1/65 VF-19 Fire Kai and Blazer. IIRC, those did not sell too sell, and Bandai has stayed away from Macross merchandise until recently with the MF franchise.

All this time time when Bandai's washed its hands off Macross, Yamato's been one busy company, releasing VF after VF, each new one a massive improvement of the earlier one (hinge pin issues and QC problems notwithstanding).

AFAIC, Yamato's the turtle in that old turtle-races-bunny story, closing in the space between it and the napping bunny that is Bandai.

IMO, Yamato's biggest problem lies at the manufacturing end. While some of the design facets of the VF's are arguably questionable (fragile hinges held together with needle-thin metal pins), most of the customer complaints (mine, anyways) are about QC issues--glued parts that aren't supposed to be glued (my Gamlin VF-22S, dammit!), missing parts, etc.

While I understand that such complex figures will inevitably be more prone to mistakes and QC problems, some of the issues are a obviously caused by absentmindedness on the part of the factory workers. Some of these grunts should really be given a proper sounding off for these mistakes. I mean, we ARE paying hundreds of dollars for these things. An acceptable level of QC isn't too much to ask, is it?

EDIT: Sorry about the double post. Horrible net traffic today....

Edited April 6, 2010 by GU-11

[Ginrai]

IMO, technically Yamato has more experience in Valk design in that they've been constantly researching VF designs for the past decade, and have been making leaps and bounds. Bandai's designs, on the other hand, have stagnated since its last venture in the mid Nineties, with the Mac7 1/65 VF-19 Fire Kai and Blazer. IIRC, those did not sell too sell, and Bandai has stayed away from Macross merchandise until recently with the MF franchise.

How do you know they didn't sell? And Bandai has put out a lot of Macross branded crap over the years (remembering that Banpresto is part of Bandai), but they didn't do a big push with deluxe toys again until there was another TV series, which is pretty typical of Bandai's modus operandi. You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions about Bandai.

[GU-11]

How do you know they didn't sell? And Bandai has put out a lot of Macross branded crap over the years (remembering that Banpresto is part of Bandai), but they didn't do a big push with deluxe toys again until there was another TV series, which is pretty typical of Bandai's modus operandi. You're making a lot of unfounded assumptions about Bandai.

I just want to clarify that I don't hate Bandai, and am NOT trying to bash the company. In fact, I've been a real fan of its Gundam kits for years.

As for the popularity of its 1/65 Fire Kai and Blazer, two out of the five or so articles I've read mentioned that the designs were found to be wanting, and implied that they didn't sell too well (don't ask me to provide links as proof; it's been years since I last read them). I didn't try to pass this off as a fact.

And when I said that Bandai's stagnated in its designs of Macross figure, I admit I haven't factored in Banpresto. My bad.

At worst, I was misinformed, but I just want to make it clear I'm not trying to mislead anyone or spread disinformation.

[eriku]

So a question on an incorrect paint application has evolved into yet another Yamato VS Bandai debate. Good work everyone. *slow sarcastic clap*

[anubis20]

I got SWS, interesting thing is that if you look closely at the box, it says SWS on the leg.

[EXO]

So a question on an incorrect paint application has evolved into yet another Yamato VS Bandai debate. Good work everyone. *slow sarcastic clap*

this should all be one big thread, right?

[eriku]

I got SWS, interesting thing is that if you look closely at the box, it says SWS on the leg.

Very interesting that SWS is on the box photo as well. Wouldn't it be funny if Kawamori specifically asked Bandai to do this because he secretly likes to drive the fans insane?

this should all be one big thread, right?

The whole forum should be one big thread titled "MACROSS".

Edited April 6, 2010 by eriku

[QuinJester]

So a question on an incorrect paint application has evolved into yet another Yamato VS Bandai debate. Good work everyone. *slow sarcastic clap*

Go back to your button-mongering, apologist!

[Salamander]

Actually Bandai took over production from a pre-existing toy in the 80's the 1/55's. They did create 1/72 scale Valkyrie for the HCM series and the VF-17/19 but if you look at actual released items per company Yamato has a longer history making Valks with far more released items.

You realise that Bandai has been making transforming toys since the mid-to-late 1970s? Sure, they weren't all Macross toys, but they've made hundreds, if not thousands, of transforming toy designs...Metal Hero, Sentai, Machine Robo, Gundam, etc.

[chen]

Uh yeah since I have been collecting since the late 70's early 80's. As too the whole idea that once a toy is designed that it's set in stone is pretty much nonesense. There are constant revisions being made each figure be it a re-color or whatever has it's own dedicated production run with small changes being made from small details like paint aps to the kind of rubber used for tires it just takes time, these things have huge production runs and stopping a line to make a change is like watching a train stop. It's not like they dump a bunch of plastic in a giant machine and push "VF-1J Max color" button and out it comes nor do they produce the whole line at once. Every company has engineers and QC people checking out the product for improvements. I'm working in the manufactoring buseness now and I am constantly updating our products with new improvements big and small and even on items that my company has built for 20 years unchanged. So every version counts becouse every version is different, there's a lot more too it than just the color of plastic used for a different Valk.

Edited April 6, 2010 by chen

[eriku]

Go back to your button-mongering, apologist!

I'm sorry.

[anime52k8]

Uh yeah since I have been collecting since the late 70's early 80's. As too the whole idea that once a toy is designed that it's set in stone is pretty much nonesense. There are constant revisions being made each figure be it a re-color or whatever has it's own dedicated production run with small changes being made from small details like paint aps to the kind of rubber used for tires it just takes time, these things have huge production runs and stopping a line to make a change is like watching a train stop. It's not like they dump a bunch of plastic in a giant machine and push "VF-1J Max color" button and out it comes nor do they produce the whole line at once. Every company has engineers and QC people checking out the product for improvements. I'm working in the manufactoring buseness now and I am constantly updating our products with new improvements big and small and even on items that my company has built for 20 years unchanged. So every version counts becouse every version is different, there's a lot more too it than just the color of plastic used for a different Valk.

Fine, but if you count every single paint variant Yamato does than you have to count all the multiple reissues that Bandai's done over the years. Additionally, it would be unfair to discount all the other Non-Macross transforming toys the two companies have produced, or any product the two have made over the years for that matter. Lessons on how to design a type of joint or what kinds of stresses a type of plastic can handled learned from one toy are still applicable to other unrelated toys, so every product should count towards assessing the level of experience a company has at making toys (Macross related or otherwise).

In any event, the claim that Yamato has significantly more experience doing anything design or manufacturing related over bandai is an outright falsehood.

As for companies constantly updating there products from run to run, I submit the 1/48 VF-1 with it's increasingly poor finish and part fitment with every version after the 3 or 4th release.

Edited April 6, 2010 by anime52k8

[chen]

Fine, but if you count every single paint variant Yamato does than you have to count all the multiple reissues that Bandai's done over the years. Additionally, it would be unfair to discount all the other Non-Macross transforming toys the two companies have produced, or any product the two have made over the years for that matter. Lessons on how to design a type of joint or what kinds of stresses a type of plastic can handled learned from one toy are still applicable to other unrelated toys, so every product should count towards assessing the level of experience a company has at making toys (Macross related or otherwise).

In any event, the claim that Yamato has significantly more experience doing anything design or manufacturing related over bandai is an outright falsehood.

As for companies constantly updating there products from run to run, I submit the 1/48 VF-1 with it's increasingly poor finish and part fitment with every version after the 3 or 4th release.

Wow okay where to start, first off I want to say I'm not being derogatory or whatever and that I'm actually enjoying this debate but anyways I never said Yamato has more experience in manufacturing and design over Bandai period. I said Yamato has more experience in manufacturing transforming Macross Mecha IF you take into account the number of released items. I don't see what the problem is, if you just take into account the 1/60 Ver.2 VF-1's by themselves your easily in the double digits and that's not counting with or without Fast/Strike Packs. If you add the various VF-0, YF-21,YE-19,YF-11, YF-22 and so one your easily adding another 14-15 different models and that's still not counting Weathering, Anniversary editions let alone 1/60 Ver.1, 1/48's, or the 1/72's and on. It's just a fact that Yamato has produced more variations of the VF-1 than Bandai and have produced more Macross Mecha than any company period.

You can also count non-transforming Macross items from both companies Yamato has I believe close too 10 figures in it's non-transforming all plastic figure line and that's not including the 8-9 variations of the 1/60 Destroids. You can also add re-issues which Bandai has done and Yamato will be doing with the re-issued 1/48's and still Bandai has produced less product.

Now to clear up some misconceptions which I read a lot off, people have a tendency to say Bandai should know better or Yamato has been doing this for so many years and still makes the same mistakes or what not. The truth is Bandai, Yamato, or whatever has design teams or departments and that it's just not one group of engineers working on every product their company produces. So for example the Gundam team wouldn't necessarily work on a Macross product let alone a Pokemon one and although Bandai or Takara has been producing transforming toys for decades the engineers have not for the most part. Of course they do ask for advice from various engineering groups and probably have access to past designs but for the most part their self contained groups and in extreme cases such as the initial Soul of Chogokin figures made, it was just ONE engineer/designer who did all the work. Obviously a smaller company like Yamato the engineers would be in charge of more different lines than the say the ones at Bandai, that doesn't excuse them from designing bad products or from not learning from other lines though.

As for the constant updates I mentioned I should have been more precise, so that's my bad. I should have said constant updates are added when they are with-in costs. The extreme being a complete re-design to something simple as better paint aps. For example the Alto VF-25 is now I believe on it's third iteration with cosmetic improvements that most fans would agree upon. True there not the most necessary improvements but they are improvements, same with the old 1/48's and I believe the nosecone. Nothing major but small improvements that would not cost a fortune to the company and most of the time it's cosmetic. But when your on your 3rd or 4th release of basically the same design and the toy comes out sloppy that sounds like mold degradation at which point you either make new ones $$$, try and fix the current ones, or just keep going with the decision being how much money the company wants to spend. Now this is where I feel bad for Yamato, Yamato makes beautiful Valks and I'm sure Yamato knew about the cracked shoulders very early and I'm sure Graham can verify this, tried to make changes that would not make that happen with-out a complete re-design of the shoulder hinges either through assembly or whatever. Macross is probably Yamato's largest profit earner so any kind of major disaster like a complete re-design of the shoulders would be a major blow to the company. If there like most companies they not only have to produce enough product to supply demand they have to keep enough in stock to meet future demand. So if they re-design the shoulder what happens to the old stock? What about all the product they sold? Unlike Bandai they don't have a lot of other profitable lines that could float the this one just in-case of a major re-design/disaster.

As for the whole DX vs 1/60 debate all I'll say is one company is a toy company while another one is a collectible one so the products will reflect these policies. In my opinion the DX should have had better details like the Yamato's while the 1/60's should be a little more toy like in the sturdiness department IMHO.

[Chronocidal]

The only problem with that... yes, Bandai has a significant amount of experience in all sorts of things. But for them to make such stupid mistakes with the VF-25, even with the benefit of that experience, makes those problems all the more egregious.

The VF-27 is in a different league entirely (excluding the paint problems), but the one main thought in my mind with the VF-25 is, "Really? Come on Bandai, you should know better than this by now."

I'm not going to defend Yamato for making rookie mistakes. On the other hand, I have no problem bashing Bandai for doing the same. I've seen what Bandai has done before. The quality of what came before the VF-25, and the quality of the VF-27 after it point to the only reason I can see for the problems it has: they just didn't care enough to try. It was designed sloppily and inaccurately, and gives me the impression that nothing was thought out to any decent extent beforehand (with regards to paint/material problems, accessories, etc). The stress problems the armor pack is giving it just puts a nice neon highlight on the fact that they didn't think things through.

I'm sorry, you do not design a $100+ toy that requires you to place the structure under direct stress in order to display it in its intended manner. Whoever designed the VF-25 either had no education in terms of material stress/strain properties, or they just didn't give half a flying rat's ass.

The super packs are the same way. In order to attach them, you have to bend the parts of the VF-25 around and snap them together in a way that they were obviously not meant to stay in. They don't fit well that way. The hip joints were not meant to sit at the angles necessary to attach the leg armor. The only reason it's possible is because there is a lot of slop built into those attachment points, and nothing was built with any kind of precision in mind. Building things sloppy to start with and using it to cover your lack of foresight is a freaking lousy way to engineer something.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Chronocidal

[m0n5t3r]

Whoever designed the VF-25 either had no education in terms of material stress/strain properties, or they just didn't give half a flying rat's ass.

[anime52k8]

VF-25 toy...

[m0n5t3r]

VF-25 toy...

IMHO, in still goes back to his design. AFAIK, the 1/72 model kit has the same problems w/ the moving parts that facilitate the VF-25's transformation (and, yes i know that model kits are more fragile than ready-made toys).

but yeah, in his own personal universe the Messiahs are not made of plastic... (*** time for the "use diecast" guys to chime in... )

Edited April 6, 2010 by m0n5t3r

[Ginrai]

I just want to clarify that I don't hate Bandai, and am NOT trying to bash the company. In fact, I've been a real fan of its Gundam kits for years.

As for the popularity of its 1/65 Fire Kai and Blazer, two out of the five or so articles I've read mentioned that the designs were found to be wanting, and implied that they didn't sell too well (don't ask me to provide links as proof; it's been years since I last read them). I didn't try to pass this off as a fact.

Nitpicky fans whining about a toy being chunky does not mean the toy sold badly. They were toys for children, who were the main audience of Macross 7. If they were such bad sellers, I doubt Bandai would have bothered to reissue them. I didn't say anything about you bashing Bandai, I just said what you were saying wasn't based on any facts.

And when I said that Bandai's stagnated in its designs of Macross figure, I admit I haven't factored in Banpresto. My bad.

At worst, I was misinformed, but I just want to make it clear I'm not trying to mislead anyone or spread disinformation.

Okeedokie.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Ginrai

[anime52k8]

IMHO, in still goes back to his design. AFAIK, the 1/72 model kit has the same problems w/ the moving parts that facilitate the VF-25's transformation (and, yes i know that model kits are more fragile than ready-made toys).

but yeah, in his own personal universe the Messiahs are not made of plastic... (*** time for the "use diecast" guys to chime in... )

the problem isn't with the design in the show though, it's not that parts are fragile or to complex, it's that there was a noticeable lack of effort and forethought put into making sure parts actually fit where they're supposed to and how the various accessory parts would actually attach to the toy.

Most of the problems with the VF-25 DX are directly attributable to poor choices on the design teams part. Look at all the areas that the VF-27 improves over the VF-25: things like the shield, the cockpit, the gunpod, the landing gear, the telescoping neck, the legs... these are things they should have gotten right in the first place.

it's fairly evident that for the VF-25's Bandai either had some second rate designers working on them, or the design team intentionally cut corners for whatever reason.

Edited April 6, 2010 by anime52k8

[m0n5t3r]

the problem isn't with the design in the show though, it's not that parts are fragile or to complex, it's that there was a noticeable lack of effort and forethought put into making sure parts actually fit where they're supposed to and how the various accessory parts would actually attach to the toy.

Most of the problems with the VF-25 DX are directly attributable to poor choices on the design teams part. Look at all the areas that the VF-27 improves over the VF-25: things like the shield, the cockpit, the gunpod, the landing gear, the telescoping neck, the legs... these are things they should have gotten right in the first place.

it's fairly evident that for the VF-25's Bandai either had some second rate designers working on them, or the design team intentionally cut corners for whatever reason.

i still think all the moving parts, hinges and such are prone to breaking on the VF-25's general design and transformation IF made with plastic... but that's just my personal opinion.

and most of the things you listed down are aesthetic improvements... sure these things matter, but a toy not breaking matters more... at least to me.

[eugimon]

i still think all the moving parts, hinges and such are prone to breaking on the VF-25's general design and transformation IF made with plastic... but that's just my personal opinion.

and most of the things you listed down are aesthetic improvements... sure these things matter, but a toy not breaking matters more... at least to me.

the sv-51 has a much more complex transformation with more little moving parts and it holds up just fine.

[m0n5t3r]

my nora would beg to differ... it's not broken but that square plastic part that's part of the wing's transformation, the one that i believe is connected to the small metal part, has some visible stress marks, and i've only ever transformed it to gerwalk a couple of times.

EDIT - and about that small metal part on the SV-51... i would venture a guess that Yamato initially tried using plastic but realized it would break, so the final product ended up having that tiny metal part/hinge surrounded by all that plastic.

Edited April 7, 2010 by m0n5t3r