Aircraft Vs Super Thread VI

[David Hingtgen]

IIRC a Viggen got a lock on a Blackbird once. (it of course required knowing the Blackbird's exact flightpath and timing ahead of time---a descending, decelerating one at that)

[electric indigo]

That's just enough reason to post a Viggen pic

[VF-19]

IIRC a Viggen got a lock on a Blackbird once. (it of course required knowing the Blackbird's exact flightpath and timing ahead of time---a descending, decelerating one at that)

Getting a lock on a blackbird is no big deal. What you really, really need to accomplish is having your missle get there before it runs out of fuel. Then, I would salute the pilot who pulled off that kill.

[Ghost Train]

If the Foxbat already has a good amount of speed yeah, I could see that. If it had to catch up from a lower speed, an F-15 and MiG-31 would have the edge in catching the shuttle just due to better engines and less weight for the F-15.

You are right in that scenario. An aircraft flying close by, like let's say 0 to 10km would cover that distance in the blink of an eye and hence would "catch up"... But it all depends on how you define catching up. It's really comparing apples and oranges, since the shuttle + booster is designed to go straight up, while normal aircraft maintain level flight.

So I will define "catch up" in the least violent way... which is a race to see if the Mig-25, flying level can pass a point X before the shuttle, flying up, can cross that same point. This would be similar to the photo of the F-15's that triggered this discussion in the first place

1. So, let's setup the Mig-25 first, which will be flying high and fast. Note the Mig is already giving it all it's got, it's not accelerating and trying its hardest to maintain top speed.

Altitude: 23000 m

Speed: 858 m/s (or 3090 km/hr)

Distance from shuttle launch pad: 100km . I think this is a reasonable distance. The Mig is flying around looking for the pad, and 100km is more or less the maximum distance of a good radar for its time.

Time needed to close distance: 117 seconds.

100km / 3090 km per hr = 0.03236 hours, or 117 seconds.

So it's going to take the Foxbat 117 seconds to close that gap, which by all accounts is very very fast.

2. Now, the shuttle.

Starting Altitude: 0 m

Starting Velocity: 0 m/s

End Velocity: 7800 m /s , speed needed to hit low earth orbit.

Acceleration given start & end velocity: 16.25 m/s^2

7800m/s / 480 s = 16.25 m/s^2

The next step is to figure out where the shuttle is at 117 seconds. (I'm making the simplifying assumption here that the shuttle is flying straight up, which actually isn't completely true, but otherwise the math gets beyond the ability to type accurately on a message board)

distance covered = 0.5 * a * t^2

distance covered = 0.5 * 16.25 * 117^2 = 111,2223 m

So basically, in the time it took the Mig-25 to reach the pad at its altitude of 23km, the shuttle should already be at an altitude of 111km. And thus, the shuttle won the race.

Even if all the math is wrong, consider that the Mig-25 was capable of outrunning contemporary missiles of its days. I'm sure a rocket powered vehicle given some time to accelerate would have no problems evading a fighter on its way up to space.

[the white drew carey]

You are right in that scenario. An aircraft flying close by, like let's say 0 to 10km would cover that distance in the blink of an eye and hence would "catch up"... But it all depends on how you define catching up. It's really comparing apples and oranges, since the shuttle + booster is designed to go straight up, while normal aircraft maintain level flight.

So I will define "catch up" in the least violent way... which is a race to see if the Mig-25, flying level can pass a point X before the shuttle, flying up, can cross that same point. This would be similar to the photo of the F-15's that triggered this discussion in the first place

1. So, let's setup the Mig-25 first, which will be flying high and fast. Note the Mig is already giving it all it's got, it's not accelerating and trying its hardest to maintain top speed.

Altitude: 23000 m

Speed: 858 m/s (or 3090 km/hr)

Distance from shuttle launch pad: 100km . I think this is a reasonable distance. The Mig is flying around looking for the pad, and 100km is more or less the maximum distance of a good radar for its time.

Time needed to close distance: 117 seconds.

100km / 3090 km per hr = 0.03236 hours, or 117 seconds.

So it's going to take the Foxbat 117 seconds to close that gap, which by all accounts is very very fast.

2. Now, the shuttle.

Starting Altitude: 0 m

Starting Velocity: 0 m/s

End Velocity: 7800 m /s , speed needed to hit low earth orbit.

Acceleration given start & end velocity: 16.25 m/s^2

7800m/s / 480 s = 16.25 m/s^2

The next step is to figure out where the shuttle is at 117 seconds. (I'm making the simplifying assumption here that the shuttle is flying straight up, which actually isn't completely true, but otherwise the math gets beyond the ability to type accurately on a message board)

distance covered = 0.5 * a * t^2

distance covered = 0.5 * 16.25 * 117^2 = 111,2223 m

So basically, in the time it took the Mig-25 to reach the pad at its altitude of 23km, the shuttle should already be at an altitude of 111km. And thus, the shuttle won the race.

Even if all the math is wrong, consider that the Mig-25 was capable of outrunning contemporary missiles of its days. I'm sure a rocket powered vehicle given some time to accelerate would have no problems evading a fighter on its way up to space.

Are we going to be tested on this?

[ambient73]

Speaking of the Viggen...

Always been one of my favorite aircraft.

[Bowen]

Speaking of Saab:

Saab stealth study

Edited June 17, 2010 by Bowen

[electric indigo]

Speaking of stealth:

http://www.freakingnews.com/Stealth-Shark-Pics-20321.asp

I also like the bomber:

http://www.freakingnews.com/Shark-Bomber-Pics-20314.asp

-

Back to the Viggen; it's a shame that there's no decent modern kit of it. But after Hasegawa made the Draken, there's still hope.

[David Hingtgen]

I think twin v.stabs like that would seriously hamper a shark's swimming ability.

[electric indigo]

Yeah, twin vertical stabs belong in the air.

[Ghost Train]

Here, the giant stingray fighter is being serviced in its underwater hangar before sortying into another stealth mission of awesomeness.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Here, the giant stingray fighter is being serviced in its underwater hangar before sortying into another stealth mission of awesomeness.

snip

I think that's the same one that gave birth to 2 live drones on camera.

[David Hingtgen]

I touched stingrays earlier this month. (cownose stingrays are actually kinda cute and very playful) (at least the ones in touch-pools at aquariums are)

[David Hingtgen]

From Reuters:

Putin boasts new jet fighter better than U.S. plane

MOSCOW

Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:26pm EDTMOSCOW (Reuters) - Prime Minister Vladimir Putin climbed into the cockpit of Russia's newest fighter jet on Thursday and said it would trump a U.S.-built rival, the F-22 Raptor.

Politics | Russia

Putin watched a test flight of a "fifth-generation" stealth fighter, dubbed the T-50 and billed as Russia's first all-new warplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

"This machine will be superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range," Putin told the pilot after the flight, according to an account on the government website.

Putin said the plane would cost up to three times less than similar aircraft in the West and could remain in service for 30 to 35 years with upgrades, according to the report.

Successful development of the fighter, built by Sukhoi, is crucial to showing Russia can challenge U.S. technology and modernize its military after a period of post-Soviet decay.

Russia also plans to manufacture T-50s jointly with India.

The F-22 raptor stealth fighter first flew in 1997 and is the only fifth-generation fighter in service. Fifth-generation aircraft have advanced flight and weapons control systems and can cruise at supersonic speeds.

According to the government website, the test pilot told Putin the controls of the T-50 allowed the pilot to operate most of the plane's systems without taking his hands off the joystick, which he said would be very useful under high forces of gravity.

"I know, I've flown," Putin replied. Sukhoi has said the plane should be ready for use in 2015.

[David Hingtgen]

From Reuters:

Putin boasts new jet fighter better than U.S. plane

MOSCOW

Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:26pm EDTMOSCOW (Reuters) - Prime Minister Vladimir Putin climbed into the cockpit of Russia's newest fighter jet on Thursday and said it would trump a U.S.-built rival, the F-22 Raptor.

Politics | Russia

Putin watched a test flight of a "fifth-generation" stealth fighter, dubbed the T-50 and billed as Russia's first all-new warplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

"This machine will be superior to our main competitor, the F-22, in terms of maneuverability, weaponry and range," Putin told the pilot after the flight, according to an account on the government website.

Putin said the plane would cost up to three times less than similar aircraft in the West and could remain in service for 30 to 35 years with upgrades, according to the report.

Successful development of the fighter, built by Sukhoi, is crucial to showing Russia can challenge U.S. technology and modernize its military after a period of post-Soviet decay.

Russia also plans to manufacture T-50s jointly with India.

The F-22 raptor stealth fighter first flew in 1997 and is the only fifth-generation fighter in service. Fifth-generation aircraft have advanced flight and weapons control systems and can cruise at supersonic speeds.

According to the government website, the test pilot told Putin the controls of the T-50 allowed the pilot to operate most of the plane's systems without taking his hands off the joystick, which he said would be very useful under high forces of gravity.

"I know, I've flown," Putin replied. Sukhoi has said the plane should be ready for use in 2015.

[Bowen]

Wait, does the prototype have TVC already? The way those nozzles are pointed down in that pic...

And I seem to remember that in that vid I posted a while back they were shown moving up and down before takeoff as well.

Anyway, I can see this thing being more maneuverable than the F-22 and having longer range, and with the AMRAAM's limited range compared to some of Russia's AAMs it could have a weapons advantage as well (assuming it can get a lock ofcourse).

But aside from that, I found it amusing that nothing was said about the low observability/stealth characteristics of both aircraft

[David Hingtgen]

Personally, I love how they act like HOTAS is something new and big...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Personally, I love how they act like HOTAS is something new and big...

Haha yea. Maybe it's big for them, I remember playing the old Flanker sim from the mid 90's and it seemed like HOTAS would be a god send for a Flanker. The sim depicted a B model though, I'm sure the MKI with French avionics is more akin to US fighters. Russian aircraft have great aerodynamic qualities but situational awareness seems much much better on US aircraft.

Wonder if India's assistance will extend the service life of the aircraft. From what I read in the Red Eagles book, the Red Eagles didn't think much of the way Russian planes were put together.

[Coota0]

Personally, I love how they act like HOTAS is something new and big...

Absolutley, my Kiowa,that abounds in mid-eighties technology, even has HOCAC (like HOTAS, but Cyclic and Collective instead of Throttle and Stick)

[buddhafabio]

Russia also plans to manufacture T-50s jointly with India.

good we get to see how it stacks up in exercises. i would love to see a f-15 up against it.

[Ghost Train]

I don't give 2 rubbles about the PAK-FA's performance characteristics and whether it's superior to the Raptor, flying saucer, or the VF-171... the only thing that matters is when are we going to see a 1:72 model of this ?

[David Hingtgen]

Well, since we only just now got good, accurate F-22 models in 1/48 and 1/72, it might be a while...

(however, the Russian kit industry has made leaps and bounds in the past couple years, and is capable of making some very nice kits---Zvezda's 787 and 767 kits are the best you can buy---I wouldn't be surprised it you could buy a T-50 from them within a year)

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I don't give 2 rubbles about the PAK-FA's performance characteristics and whether it's superior to the Raptor, flying saucer, or the VF-171... the only thing that matters is when are we going to see a 1:72 model of this ?

Meh... I am lazy to build and paint. I'd take a 1:72 Dragon Wings/Corgi/whatzitname diecast please.

[Ghost Train]

I'm not really sure where to post this since we don't have a ships thread... here is an "unusual" 1/700 Kitty Hawk carrier model. Link.. It's either revolting or awesome... take your pick .

Projection of US military capabilities through moe moe kyun.

[Lindem Herz]

I'm not really sure where to post this since we don't have a ships thread... here is an "unusual" 1/700 Kitty Hawk carrier model. Link.. It's either revolting or awesome... take your pick .

Projection of US military capabilities through moe moe kyun.

Kill me. Kill me now.

[Beltane70]

Yeah, I saw that Kitty Hawk, too. I actually do want to get just out of the sheer weirdness of it!

[Warmaker]

I'm not really sure where to post this since we don't have a ships thread... here is an "unusual" 1/700 Kitty Hawk carrier model. Link.. It's either revolting or awesome... take your pick .

Projection of US military capabilities through moe moe kyun.

Another look for the good 'ol "Sh*tty Kitty"

[Shadow]

Putin boasts new jet fighter better than U.S. plane

MOSCOW

Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:26pm EDTMOSCOW (Reuters) - Prime Minister Vladimir Putin climbed into the cockpit of Russia's newest fighter jet on Thursday and said it would trump a U.S.-built rival, the F-22 Raptor.

Meh, let's let Putin put his money where his mouth is and test it against an F-15.

[RFT]

RAF Tornado Navigator up to japes with spotters on training run in wales

[Knight26]

'nuff said

[Nied]

So the A330 is to big to replace the KC-135 huh David? Edited July 2, 2010 by Nied

[miles316]

So the A330 is to big to replace the KC-135 huh David?

So their is a second person who frequents Defencetech.com.

[David Hingtgen]

I'm sure the Key Publishing forum members are busily whipping up some renders...

[the white drew carey]

'nuff said

That's all nice and boobalicious and everything, but there is not enough of a stylistic representation that immediately makes me say PAK FA.

So.... not 'nuff said.

[F-ZeroOne]

The BBC are currently running a series called "How To Build A... " - last week, they covered the Astute nuclear attack submarine; this week they covered Rolls-Royce and its line of commercial jet engines. Might be interesting for those who like the non-military side of things (I know I'd forgotten just how much jet engines are hand assembled!). Its currently broadcast on BBC2 at 21:00GMT, just after Top Gear...

Edited July 4, 2010 by F-ZeroOne