Zentraedi Clone Series

[Cyclone Trooper]

Exedol...or Exedore for the unenlightened...has always fascinated me ever since I first saw him back in the mid 80s. Here was this malformed little midget (by Zentraedi standards) who was reputed to be quite a bit older than even Britai and second only to Bodolza himself. Then DYRL/Macross 7 redesigned him to be possibly the most alien of all Zentraedi, having tentacle-like appendages instead of arms and an oversized pulsating cranium instead of hair. Well...if you don't include Bodolza's head-in-a-jar redesign, he's the most alien...

Since Kawamori prefers the overall DYRL designs, they've since popped up in various Macross series. Similar Britai-type Zentrans appears in both DYRL and Macross F...both sporting the same "techno-eyepatch" as Britai. The green-skinned, hairless Zentraedi seem to be relegated to upper-echelon command and first officer roles. I've always attributed this to them being the "first" Zentraedi created by the Protoculture, and therefore much, much older than the average rank-and-file soldiers...and also attributes to their otherworldly, almost "prototype" appearance. The average trooper and junior officer had a decidedly more human appearance in contrast. The Meltrandi were also subject to this strange kind of heirarchy, as evidenced by Lap Lamiz's DYRL-style floating head makeover...although there doesn't seem to be as many different types of Meltran as there seems to be of Zentraedi. Aside from Lap Lamiz, all of the officers and soldiers appear to be from the same basic "normal female" genetic template.

If most modern Macross series are running with the DYRL character designs, Bodolza and Lap Lamiz primarily exist as living, breathing worldships, while Britai/Exedol types are always paired together in an almost symbiotic way to command large fleets, while the more human-looking troops serve as shock troopers. At least this is how I've always viewed it. I guess this turned into more of an observational posting instead of questions on the matter...but I couldn't change the title after posting it. What are others' thoughts on this?

Edited March 23, 2010 by Cyclone Trooper

[RedWolf]

There is such a thing as a promotion. Chlore who was once a rival pilot of Millia in kill scores was promoted to fleet commander. She still sorties out as well.

Though I assume given their familiarity with each other Chlore's fleet is part of Bodolle Zer's Fleet who did not participate in Space War 1. Her Advisor Tranquil does have a dossier on Exsedol Folmo and knowledge of the first Macross. Chlore called Vrlitwhai a traitor.

So word about Vrlitwhai Adoclass fleet's actions on the Solar system spread among Bodolle Zer's fleet but certain details like males and females living together was left out.

[Seto Kaiba]

Since Kawamori prefers the overall DYRL designs, they've since popped up in various Macross series. [...] I've always attributed this to them being the "first" Zentraedi created by the Protoculture, and therefore much, much older than the average rank-and-file soldiers...and also attributes to their otherworldly, almost "prototype" appearance.

All things considered, any attempt to compose a rational theory to explain away the use of designs from both the original Macross series and DYRL in newer main continuity material is always going to be a complete boondoggle so long as Kawamori doesn't want to be tied down to one version or the other. There's simply no rhyme or reason to his use of the designs from either series, since he's played mix and match with both on more than one occasion.

Macross Frontier's "Missing Birthday" and "Fastest Delivery" weren't the most blatant contradiction, just the most recent one... Macross 7's documentary episode had a DYRL Vrlitwhai and a TV series Quamzin. There was also the use of the term "Meltran" in Macross 7 to describe Milia, whereas Macross Frontier has Klan Klan identifying herself as Zentradi instead. Macross 7 also supplied a rationale to explain why Exsedol switched from his TV series look to the DYRL redesign, seemingly implying that his TV appearance was the original one, but no rationale exists for the other occurrences of DYRL designs.

EDIT: RedWolf raised another interesting contradiction... in FotSW, Chlore and her fleet are DYRL designs, but they act as though they were in a TV series-style relationship with the Zentradi forces... as their allies, rather than their rivals. Now that Frontier is playing silly frakkers and trotting out a heavier emphasis on DYRL, who knows what's what as far as the Zentradi are concerned? By all accounts they're using the DYRL designs just because they look cooler half the time.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Bri]

All things considered, any attempt to compose a rational theory to explain away the use of designs from both the original Macross series and DYRL in newer main continuity material is always going to be a complete boondoggle so long as Kawamori doesn't want to be tied down to one version or the other. There's simply no rhyme or reason to his use of the designs from either series, since he's played mix and match with both on more than one occasion.

[...]

By all accounts they're using the DYRL designs just because they look cooler half the time.

Seto nails the issue here. Any attempt to find a logical in-universe-explanation for the all the style differences is going to end up in a headache. Still, I have some small hope that Macross the First will be able to provide a working synthesis between DYRL and SDFM.

[RedWolf]

EDIT: RedWolf raised another interesting contradiction... in FotSW, Chlore and her fleet are DYRL designs, but they act as though they were in a TV series-style relationship with the Zentradi forces... as their allies, rather than their rivals. Now that Frontier is playing silly frakkers and trotting out a heavier emphasis on DYRL, who knows what's what as far as the Zentradi are concerned? By all accounts they're using the DYRL designs just because they look cooler half the time.

Remember Shoji Kawamori's Macross isn't real it is all metafiction explanation?

Basically that is what happened to the franchise under him.

Heck Space Fold isn't consistent in visual presentation. Macross and Macross 7 has nBSG type of ftl. VF-X2 Sratoga II is sort of Star Trek warp but has precedent in TV Zentradi folding. Finally in Macross Frontier we get portals.

In VF-X2 you have to wonder if Meltran ships have always been there post SW1 or UN Spacy managed to buy some from Chlore which in turn was commandeered by Vindirance resistance led by a Meltran VF-1J ace.

[Seto Kaiba]

Remember Shoji Kawamori's Macross isn't real it is all metafiction explanation?

Which sounds like retroactive arse-covering to me... but whatever, the end result is he's saying "don't think too much about it", which is sound advice.

Heck Space Fold isn't consistent in visual presentation. Macross and Macross 7 has nBSG type of ftl. VF-X2 Sratoga II is sort of Star Trek warp but has precedent in TV Zentradi folding. Finally in Macross Frontier we get portals.

Warning! Incoming qualifying statement!

Representations of the Zentradi, space fold, etc. vary in depiction in the main Macross continuity only. In the Macross II parallel world continuity, the presentation of the Zentradi, space fold travel, etc. is pretty consistent, which could easily be attributed to its use of DYRL as the sole, canon depiction of Space War 1 rather than the main continuity's mix-and-match approach. (Which is not to say that it doesn't contain some minor references to the main continuity, like an explanation for why the VF-1D doesn't show up, why the GBP-1 was first used on the VF-1J, and the UNS-remodeled bridge of Vrlitwhai's ship looking suspiciously similar to the TV series version)

[Hyper Shinchan]

If I'm not wrong in Macross 7 (not in the anime itself, I've read that it was stated in some kind of linear notes) Exedol is said to have some kind of implants (probably in the brain) that were removed once (when he became Britai's ambassador) but he wanted them again because he feared that he could start losing his memories (waaay larger than any HDs XD).

If that's so we could suppose that the higher ranking Zentraedis received some kind of surgery to various degree.

EDIT: of course "Meltrandi" (or female Zaentradi depending on the setting XD) are left out just because they must look nice.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Hyper Shinchan

[Gubaba]

If I'm not wrong in Macross 7 (not in the anime itself, I've read that it was stated in some kind of linear notes) Exedol is said to have some kind of implants (probably in the brain) that were removed once (when he became Britai's ambassador) but he wanted them again because he feared that he could start losing his memories (waaay larger than any HDs XD).

If that's so we could suppose that the higher ranking Zentraedis received some kind of surgery to various degree.

Which is, as far as I'm concerned, a lame and inadequate excuse...just as DYRL being "a movie within a movie" fails to convince me.

My feeling is that these are stopgap answers to throw at overzealous continuity hounds...I much prefer just ignoring the discrepancies completely and not trying to figure out "what actually happened." As long as there are no major retcons (like, for example, saying that Focker actually survived Space War I, or that Isamu was actually test-piloting the YF-24 in Plus), I'm content.

[Killer Robot]

There was also the use of the term "Meltran" in Macross 7 to describe Milia, whereas Macross Frontier has Klan Klan identifying herself as Zentradi instead.

For that matter, FotSW used both "Meltran" and "Zentradi" to describe Chlore's fleet, so a reading that "Meltran" has a meaning of "Female Zentradi" would fit all cases in 7 and Frontier so far as I know. Klan is also of a generation born to actual parents and raised in human culture, so is more likely to view her heritage as the collective term rather than one of the two like one raised in the uncultured fleets of the past.

[RedWolf]

Well Klan uses Zentran only to describe her natural size. Miclone as we know is the description for human size.

[Seto Kaiba]

For that matter, FotSW used both "Meltran" and "Zentradi" to describe Chlore's fleet, so a reading that "Meltran" has a meaning of "Female Zentradi" would fit all cases in 7 and Frontier so far as I know.

FotSW being outside the normal continuity, the prime example is the occasional references to Milia as being Meltrandi, and the use of DYRL designs in their documentary about SW1... including showing Max and Milia's dogfight with Max in a VF-1S and Milia in a red Queadluun-Rau. It's not quite as clear cut as using one term to mean the other... there's a definite case of implying that DYRL is the more accurate depiction there...

All the same, the whole matter of explaining which version of the Zentradi is "right" remains unsolvable due to the pick-and-choose nature of Kawamori's use of them.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[RedWolf]

All the same, the whole matter of explaining which version of the Zentradi is "right" remains unsolvable due to the pick-and-choose nature of Kawamori's use of them.

On that note in Macross 7 Encore dramatization of Ray's life he and Pink Pecker faced TV version Queadluun-Raus while Chlore's fleet had DYRL Queadluun-Raus.

[Ginrai]

A) Kawamori didn't direct Macross 7

B) Macross obviously doesn't care and liberally uses both movie and series based on whatever the director or animator feels like that episode.

[Gubaba]

FotSW being outside the normal continuity...

Huh?

[Seto Kaiba]

Huh?

What? The closest any incarnation of the Macross timeline has ever come to acknowledging the events of FotSW was a two-paragraph Extra Report included on one of the Macross Chronicle timeline sheets. It wasn't included in the airing order, and it isn't even really a part of Macross 7 Encore either. It's an extra feature tacked onto the last volume of the home video release of the series. Its omission from the broadcast run of the series and the timeline is telling enough without it essentially being a deleted scene. We can ballpark where the two actual Encore episodes take place, but all we can say about the unaired FotSW episode is that it has to be somewhere after episode 28... other than that all bets are off. The unaired episode "Fleet of the Strongest Women" is ambiguously canon at best. Realistically it should enjoy the same non-canon but acknowledged status as deleted scenes.

(Were it something like Good Morning Mylene, where you could fit it in anywhere without disrupting other events it would be one thing, but FotSW's events are simply too big to handwave away like that)

EDIT: Either way, it's only one small part of the whole "whose Zentradi is it anyway" situation... canon or no, there's enough conflicting material on the TV and DYRL sides to keep it entirely ambiguous.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

What? The closest any incarnation of the Macross timeline has ever come to acknowledging the events of FotSW was a two-paragraph Extra Report included on one of the Macross Chronicle timeline sheets. It wasn't included in the airing order, and it isn't even really a part of Macross 7 Encore either. It's an extra feature tacked onto the last volume of the home video release of the series. Its omission from the broadcast run of the series and the timeline is telling enough without it essentially being a deleted scene. We can ballpark where the two actual Encore episodes take place, but all we can say about the unaired FotSW episode is that it has to be somewhere after episode 28... other than that all bets are off. The unaired episode "Fleet of the Strongest Women" is ambiguously canon at best. Realistically it should enjoy the same non-canon but acknowledged status as deleted scenes.

(Were it something like Good Morning Mylene, where you could fit it in anywhere without disrupting other events it would be one thing, but FotSW's events are simply too big to handwave away like that)

Huh...I never thought of it that way. I never got the feeling it was non-canonical, especially since Chlore has her own character sheet...

[Seto Kaiba]

Huh...I never thought of it that way. I never got the feeling it was non-canonical, especially since Chlore has her own character sheet...

Well, if we take the stated intent of Macross Chronicle at face value, then the canonicity of the Macross works being covered wasn't necessarily a factor... if it was, then their decision to include Macross II, which isn't part of the main (ongoing) continuity's canon, is truly strange.

Getting pack to this thread's original topic...

On that note in Macross 7 Encore dramatization of Ray's life he and Pink Pecker faced TV version Queadluun-Raus while Chlore's fleet had DYRL Queadluun-Raus.

Oh, I'd forgotten about that... though even if we exclude Chlore's fleet in FotSW there're still Milia's red DYRL-model Queadluun-Rau in episode 11.

B) Macross obviously doesn't care and liberally uses both movie and series based on whatever the director or animator feels like that episode.

Which was the whole point... trying to construct a rationale is impossible because there doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to their use of DYRL or TV designs aside from the personal preference of the director/writer/whoever.

[Gubaba]

Well, if we take the stated intent of Macross Chronicle at face value, then the canonicity of the Macross works being covered wasn't necessarily a factor... if it was, then their decision to include Macross II, which isn't part of the main (ongoing) continuity's canon, is truly strange.

Yeah...but Macross II has officially and repeatedly been stated to have been relegated to an alternate continuity. No one has said anything of the kind about FotSW.

Not saying you're wrong, just saying that's an awfully big conclusion to come to from not much information. If the extra reports had said that the episode was non-canonical, fine and dandy. But they don't. So I'm no sure what you're basing your argument on.

[sketchley]

Yeah...but Macross II has officially and repeatedly been stated to have been relegated to an alternate continuity. No one has said anything of the kind about FotSW.

Not saying you're wrong, just saying that's an awfully big conclusion to come to from not much information. If the extra reports had said that the episode was non-canonical, fine and dandy. But they don't. So I'm no sure what you're basing your argument on.

Agreed. All the extra report has implied is that the episode's event takes place outside of the TV series' events. Which isn't really new information...

[Nied]

I think a lot of people tend to over-think this. There's no reason to not accept all of the various depictions of Zentradi. We know that there were at least two Protoculture factions using Zentradi for proxy warfare before the Protodevlin showed up, couldn't the different uniform styles etc just be a result of a lack of standardization between the various factions once they united against the Supervision Army (hell we see what could be a few "Meltran" ships inside Bodolzer's flagship in ep 27 of SDF:M). Why can't there simply be two versions of the Quedeluun-Rau and Nousjadel-Ger in service with the various Zentradi fleets roaming the galaxy (with the DYRL designs being more prevalent to explain why we rarely see the TV designs show up post SDF:M)? Hell Vrlitwhai may have just gone bald between SDF:M and the filming of DYRL and the producers just went with the look everyone was familiar with.

[Seto Kaiba]

Agreed. All the extra report has implied is that the episode's event takes place outside of the TV series' events. Which isn't really new information...

As you say, the implication of the Extra Report is that it takes place outside of the events of the Macross 7 TV series... that it is outside the normal continuity of Macross 7. There are (generally) three ways to classify material outside of the normal continuity: Expanded Universe (tenuously canon side story), Parallel World (functionally non-canon for the prime universe), and Non-Canon. In this case it doesn't really matter which, since my original point was that we can't take material from "Fleet of the Strongest Women" as being entirely reliable for the purposes of discussing what's what with the main continuity Zentradi (and/or Meltrandi) for that very reason... that it's outside the normal course of the series.

We know that there were at least two Protoculture factions using Zentradi for proxy warfare before the Protodevlin showed up, couldn't the different uniform styles etc just be a result of a lack of standardization between the various factions once they united against the Supervision Army

An excellent proposal... admittedly not one that solves the contradictions in the depictions of Space War 1, but potentially useful for later Macross stories.

(hell we see what could be a few "Meltran" ships inside Bodolzer's flagship in ep 27 of SDF:M).

Admittedly, that is the case in the TV series depiction... but like everything else it becomes somewhat awkward when we also consider all the areas where the events of DYRL and the TV series seem to occupy a "Schrodinger's continuity", where either can be canon depending on the director's preferences... like how the documentary of Space War 1 filmed aboard City-7 had Basara, Mylene, and their Vrlitwhai actor doing in DYRL style, but their Kamjin in TV style, along with Milia's TV VF-1J and TV flightsuit. Frontier didn't help matters by using Zentradi scenes unique to DYRL in their expository dialogue...

Why can't there simply be two versions of the Quedeluun-Rau and Nousjadel-Ger in service with the various Zentradi fleets roaming the galaxy (with the DYRL designs being more prevalent to explain why we rarely see the TV designs show up post SDF:M)?

Indeed... the creators of Macross II played with that idea when they were doing mechanical designs for the two canon prequel games (Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song) by creating a whole family of designs for specific combat roles based on the stock Queadluun-Rau and Nosjadeul-Ger. Not strictly relevant to the continuity we're talking about, but relevant in that the idea is not unprecedented in Macross as a whole even without the intervention of humans (as with the Queadluun-Rea).

Hell Vrlitwhai may have just gone bald between SDF:M and the filming of DYRL and the producers just went with the look everyone was familiar with.

Possibly, but all other exemplars of the DYRL commander type have all been bald, even those seemingly much younger (though of unknown age). At the time DYRL was released, Vrlitwhai would've been (according to his TV series bio) about 56 years old. Definitely not too early for male pattern baldness, if the Zentradi are even susceptible to such a thing.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Zentrandude]

I say exo is like that is because its a protoculture psychological defense system, Like Pitbulls and Pugs or Persian cats they are so ugly that you have to keep it close to you. Plus would you really do mean things to something really ugly. I would be like "ahhhhh atleast hes trying his best, Its ok little exo we can work overtime to clone those 30 million people we flung into the massive black hole due to your miscalculations on the fold jump."

[sketchley]

As you say, the implication of the Extra Report is that it takes place outside of the events of the Macross 7 TV series... that it is outside the normal continuity of Macross 7. There are (generally) three ways to classify material outside of the normal continuity: Expanded Universe (tenuously canon side story), Parallel World (functionally non-canon for the prime universe), and Non-Canon. In this case it doesn't really matter which, since my original point was that we can't take material from "Fleet of the Strongest Women" as being entirely reliable for the purposes of discussing what's what with the main continuity Zentradi (and/or Meltrandi) for that very reason... that it's outside the normal course of the series.

There you go reading too much into things, again. It takes place outside of the events of the TV series, yet it is still part of the canon TV series. Period. End of story.

The character sheets related to the episode in Macross Chronicle counter any opinions otherwise.

[Nied]

Admittedly, that is the case in the TV series depiction... but like everything else it becomes somewhat awkward when we also consider all the areas where the events of DYRL and the TV series seem to occupy a "Schrodinger's continuity", where either can be canon depending on the director's preferences... like how the documentary of Space War 1 filmed aboard City-7 had Basara, Mylene, and their Vrlitwhai actor doing in DYRL style, but their Kamjin in TV style, along with Milia's TV VF-1J and TV flightsuit.

They also had Basara flying around in the Fire Valkyrie with it's wings folded back and some crude FAST pack replicas stuck to the back of it, I don't think the producers of that docudrama were all that concerned with accuracy. In continuity DYRL was supposed to be a huge hit so it's likely whoever produced the City-7 show skewed towards the recognizable production design of that movie. Millia's VF-1 and flightsuit on the other hand really are the ones she flew and wore during SW1 just as we see them in SDF:M.

[Seto Kaiba]

They also had Basara flying around in the Fire Valkyrie with it's wings folded back and some crude FAST pack replicas stuck to the back of it, I don't think the producers of that docudrama were all that concerned with accuracy.

Not necessarily... it's entirely possible that the producers originally intended to do what the producers of the "Birdhuman" movie did, and were using a modern variable fighter as a stand-in for the CG model of the period-appropriate fighter that would be inserted during post-production.

In continuity DYRL was supposed to be a huge hit so it's likely whoever produced the City-7 show skewed towards the recognizable production design of that movie. Millia's VF-1 and flightsuit on the other hand really are the ones she flew and wore during SW1 just as we see them in SDF:M.

Which still does nothing for obvious contradictions like the liberal use of scenes from DYRL in Macross Frontier's expository dialogue as though they were canon.

[Hyper Shinchan]

Not necessarily... it's entirely possible that the producers originally intended to do what the producers of the "Birdhuman" movie did, and were using a modern variable fighter as a stand-in for the CG model of the period-appropriate fighter that would be inserted during post-production.

It's not the case since in episode 14 they show the "movie" (around 10:30), Gamlin is watching it.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Hyper Shinchan

[Seto Kaiba]

It's not the case since in episode 14 they show the "movie" (around 10:30), Gamlin is watching it.

Um... I'm also pretty sure any pretense of accuracy went out of the production right around the time the Varauta attacked the production and the film crew decided to record (and apparently use) the resulting dogfight unaltered. Now, it's been a while since I last re-watched Macross: Do You Remember Love?, but I'm pretty sure Hikaru wasn't the one singing at the Zentradi... and I'm also pretty damn sure that Hikaru's Valkyrie wasn't equipped with a speaker pod launcher and that the Zentradi weren't using modified VF-14s. Given the dialogue of the film crew back in episode 11, it seems fairly obvious that the final cut deviated significantly from the original intent of the production...

(after all, everything's worse with Basara)

So really, it remains entirely possible that the original intent of the production was to replace Basara's VF-19 with a VF-1 in post-production for historical accuracy's sake. Clearly they were going to be doing something with Zentradi mecha too... since the director makes mention of a "Zentradi battle scene", and there are no Regults or Glaugs evident anywhere near or on the ship.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

So really, it remains entirely possible that the original intent of the production was to replace Basara's VF-19 with a VF-1 in post-production for historical accuracy's sake. Clearly they were going to be doing something with Zentradi mecha too... since the director makes mention of a "Zentradi battle scene", and there are no Regults or Glaugs evident anywhere near or on the ship.

You're beginning to sound like Redwolf here...

[Hyper Shinchan]

(after all, everything's worse with Basara)

You wanted to say that everything is better with Basara, that show was apparently a big success.

So really, it remains entirely possible that the original intent of the production was to replace Basara's VF-19 with a VF-1 in post-production for historical accuracy's sake. Clearly they were going to be doing something with Zentradi mecha too... since the director makes mention of a "Zentradi battle scene", and there are no Regults or Glaugs evident anywhere near or on the ship.

Unlike Frontier's omake of Zero this animation seemed to be something made in a hurry and it's less consistent with the original animation; surely they were thinking something about the Zaentradi units but I won't exclude actually that they had some unit in the fleet , they were used by the NUNS for some time and they were still used by Zaentradi troops (but it could have be a museum unit too, just to give an example).

Or maybe they were going to put some poor makeshift equipment on some VF-11 (and of course that being not showed in the anime doesn't mean anything since they could have just made a separate scene).

Edited March 25, 2010 by Hyper Shinchan

[Seto Kaiba]

You're beginning to sound like Redwolf here...

Nah, if I was aiming to sound like RedWolf I wouldn't be drawing on canon events in my theories and assertions. It cannot be denied that there is precedent for what I'm suggesting in other canon Macross shows. The in-universe rationale for DYRL shows that large-scale holography was already in use for cinematic purposes over a decade before "The Lynn Minmay Story" was filmed, and Macross Frontier episode 10 shows the use of post-processing to make some modern VF used for filming appear to be a completely different, much older, model.

(If you have another explanation for what the "Zentradi battle scene" would've consisted of in the complete absence of Zentradi mecha, I'm all ears... (or is it "all eyes" since this is plaintext?))

This is the important bit

Either way, you can't deny that the completed "Lynn Minmay Story", which was intended to be part-documentary, was using actors in DYRL appearance as though it was historically accurate... which also crops up in Macross 7: the Galaxy is Calling Me! in the form of pictures on Emilia's wall... among which is the DYRL version of Max and Milia's wedding shown at the pre-filming party...

You wanted to say that everything is better with Basara, that show was apparently a big success.

"Popular" and "Good" aren't necessarily the same thing... I could do without Nekki Sue.

surely they were thinking something about the Zaentradi units but I won't exclude actually that they had some unit in the fleet , they were used by the NUNS for some time and they were still used by Zaentradi troops (but it could have be a museum unit too, just to give an example).

Which is still no more credible than the theory I proposed... they were intending to shoot a "Zentradi battle scene", and there were no Zentradi units evident anywhere in the fleet. (For that matter, full-size Zentradi seemed to be right out on City-7, since Mylene was somewhat surprised to see a pair of them at the launch party)

So, coming full circle... the whole issue we're dancing around here is that no matter how we attempt to rationalize it, there are just too many contradictory instances of TV and DYRL aesthetics being used with regard to the Zentradi for us to make any definitive declaration about which one is right, or even if both are. It changes at the whim of the director... and changes often.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

Nah, if I was aiming to sound like RedWolf I wouldn't be drawing on canon events in my theories and assertions. It cannot be denied that there is precedent for what I'm suggesting in other canon Macross shows. The in-universe rationale for DYRL shows that large-scale holography was already in use for cinematic purposes over a decade before "The Lynn Minmay Story" was filmed, and Macross Frontier episode 10 shows the use of post-processing to make some modern VF used for filming appear to be a completely different, much older, model.

(If you have another explanation for what the "Zentradi battle scene" would've consisted of in the complete absence of Zentradi mecha, I'm all ears... (or is it "all eyes" since this is plaintext?))

No idea...perhaps we should ask the scriptwriter (in this case, Sukehiro Tomita, who of course was also the scriptwriter for DYRL and Macross II).

If I were to guess, I'd say they'd probably throw in stock footage of battlepods, but leave the VF-19 untouched. Why strap decorative FAST Packs onto the thing if you're just going to cover it all with CGI later?

This is the important bit

Either way, you can't deny that the completed "Lynn Minmay Story", which was intended to be part-documentary, was using actors in DYRL appearance as though it was historically accurate... which also crops up in Macross 7: the Galaxy is Calling Me! in the form of pictures on Emilia's wall... among which is the DYRL version of Max and Milia's wedding shown at the pre-filming party...

Agreed.

So, coming full circle... the whole issue we're dancing around here is that no matter how we attempt to rationalize it, there are just too many contradictory instances of TV and DYRL aesthetics being used with regard to the Zentradi for us to make any definitive declaration about which one is right, or even if both are. It changes at the whim of the director... and changes often.

Also agreed.

[RedWolf]

You're beginning to sound like Redwolf here...

Hey!

[VF5SS]

millia's VF-1J was DYRL style at first.

And her flight suit isn't colored like the TV series one so maybe it's more of a general nod than the same one. The show itself is kind of non-specific about "her old Valkyrie."

It's old and she's old (dare da obasan desu te?!) but they never explicitly state that she used it in space war 1.

[Cyclone Trooper]

What VF5SS said...

If that screenshot is any indicator, that's not even her original flightsuit...it's more like Hikaru's. Her flightsuit was blood-red with white accents. His was white with red (and some blue), and that's exactly what she's wearing there. So maybe it IS just a generalized nod to SDFM in that respect. And as far as the flight controls go, I was under the impression that the Block-6 cockpit layout was written off as simply an upgrade from the original cockpit configuration, not specifically a DYRL design (although for all intents and purposes, it is).

Edited March 26, 2010 by Cyclone Trooper

[RedWolf]

millia's VF-1J was DYRL style at first.

And her flight suit isn't colored like the TV series one so maybe it's more of a general nod than the same one. The show itself is kind of non-specific about "her old Valkyrie."

It's old and she's old (dare da obasan desu te?!) but they never explicitly state that she used it in space war 1.

We should note that Millia was special forces and flight instructor before retiring. Meaning she has tons of flight suits over the years.