VF-19 and VF-21/22

[ShadowerV2]

Relax Tom. It's just flame bait.

[DrClay]

If we don't ever get any info on upcoming toys, and this site NEVER gets updated.... all we have is flames. so flame away lest this forum gather dust and all MWers stop coming to it

[Uxi]

A big F***ing valk without adequate detail is just butt-haneous.

Detail is king, Durability is Queen, then size matters.

Yeah, what he said. 100%. Especially on the 'butt-haneous' part.

YF-21 is my favorite valkyrie period and I don't want it in 1/48. Be too big and too expensive. 1/60 is perfect compromise to allow significant detail. And it would let me do mock battles with in-scale Q-raus, and VF-1s (and hopefully destroids other than the Monster, to say nothing of Regults and Glaugs).

[Macross_Fanboy]

I want a Roy Focker helmet and costume for next Halloween before I ship out.

[Sundown]

Oh , don´t get me wrong , I just don´t complain about the Q-rau or Monster cause I know those (or at least the Monster) will have pretty limited releases and will not take all of Yamato´s resources like an entire 1/48 M+ or M0 line would do.

I´m not agaisnt the idea of having big and detailed M+ valks at all , I´m just against the idea of Yamato focusing all of their attention and resources towards one single line like 1/48 M+valks , when such line will most possibly be limited to less than a third of all consumers. I call that Elitism.

What "line", as far as the M+ Valks go? There are only two-- the YF-19 and YF-22, ok, and maybe the VF-11. I don't see how two Valks would take up all of Yamato's resources any more than a limited release of the bigger Q-Rau and Monster... both of which probably would net Yamato a lot less profit and revenue than any of the Valks would, due their limited numbers and limited interest in the items. Tooling is the expensive part. It's actually more efficent to make more runs off the same mold. Limited releases that involve new molds take up more resources than molds that can be reused or can produce items that can be sold in greater numbers.

Ok, even if we take the M0 line into consideration, it would still be more cost effective for Yamato than the limited release 1/60 Monster and Q-Rau, since many of those molds can be reused for the different versions of the VF-0.

Where do you get the idea that Yamato is focusing all of its attention on the 1/48 to the exclusion of the smaller Valks? It's been said over, and over, that 1/72 (and I think 1/60 now) Valks are in the works. So what exactly is the issue here? Why the tirade anytime someone talks about the 1/48, telling us how we're misguided or how we don't know what we really want? No one's been asking Yamato to focus on the 1/48's exclusively. Why disparage it at every opportunity, if you're not "against the idea" of a 1/48 M+ or M0 Valk?

From all you've ever posted on the matter, even though it's been said repeatedly that Yamato intends on producing more Valk toys in smaller scales... it would suggest you are.

You'll get what you want. I think you know the rest by now.

-Al

[Aegis!]

What "line", as far as the M+ Valks go? There are only two-- the YF-19 and YF-22, ok, and maybe the VF-11. I don't see how two Valks would take up all of Yamato's resources any more than a limited release of the bigger Q-Rau and Monster... both of which probably would net Yamato a lot less profit and revenue than any of the Valks would, due their limited numbers and limited interest in the items. Tooling is the expensive part. It's actually more efficent to make more runs off the same mold. Limited releases that involve new molds take up more resources than molds that can be reused or can produce items that can be sold in greater numbers.

Ok, even if we take the M0 line into consideration, it would still be more cost effective for Yamato than the limited release 1/60 Monster and Q-Rau, since many of those molds can be reused for the different versions of the VF-0.

Where do you get the idea that Yamato is focusing all of its attention on the 1/48 to the exclusion of the smaller Valks? It's been said over, and over, that 1/72 (and I think 1/60 now) Valks are in the works. So what exactly is the issue here? Why the tirade anytime someone talks about the 1/48, telling us how we're misguided or how we don't know what we really want? No one's been asking Yamato to focus on the 1/48's exclusively. Why disparage it at every opportunity, if you're not "against the idea" of a 1/48 M+ or M0 Valk?

From all you've ever posted on the matter, even though it's been said repeatedly that Yamato intends on producing more Valk toys in smaller scales... it would suggest you are.

You'll get what you want. I think you know the rest by now.

Would you care to read ALL of my posts ?

I said I it didn´t bother me at all if they did 1/48 M+ valks , in fact if that´s the only alternative to the crappy 1/72 toys then I would probably buy the damn thing.

I´m just curious as to why all this people want to get 1/48 M+ toys immediately without even considering what they would actually be getting...most of the people that say they want 1/48 M+ valks would probably say they want everything in 1/48 from an ant to Bodolza fortress thinking they would all be the same kind of toy (size , detail & price).

We ain´t gonna get much more detail on those toys if they are 1/48 solely because they are 1/48. They´ll have as much detail as Yamato can put with their current resources (whatever small or big they are ) i.e. no more than current 1/48 VF-1s , they just be enlarged copies...

They won´t magically produce incredibly detailed M+ toys from scratch from one day to another just because they increase the scale ; since 1/60 M+ toys would be just the same as the 1/48 VF-1s and based on the popularity of those toys it would be pretty damn understandable to ask for 1/60 toys , that´s like asking for 1/48 quality toys.

if they really were capable of producing even better toys than the 1/48 VF-1s they probably would´ve sent the 1/48 VF-1 line to hell by now and started a new 1/32 VF-1 line with more detail just like what they did with 1/60 because BIG is BETTER , but wait ...they haven´t done that have they ? no they haven´t , why ? cause they can´t risk to produce such potentially unpractical toys and they wouldn´t be able to put even more detail in those toys than what they have done with the 1/48 VF-1s , just like what would happen with 1/48 M+ toys.

If the only decent M+ toys were done in 1/48 I would probably buy them , but that doesn´t mean 1/48 is the optimal alternative for better M+ toys.

Edited November 25, 2003 by Aegis!

[imode]

Would you care to read ALL of my posts ?

I said I it didn´t bother me at all if they did 1/48 M+ valks , in fact if that´s the only alternative to the crappy 1/72 toys then I would probably buy the damn thing.

I´m just curious as to why all this people want to get 1/48 M+ toys immediately without even considering what they would actually be getting...most of the people that say they want 1/48 M+ valks would probably say they want everything in 1/48 from an ant to Bodolza fortress thinking they would all be the same kind of toy (size , detail & price).

We ain´t gonna get much more detail on those toys if they are 1/48 solely because they are 1/48. They´ll have as much detail as Yamato can put with their current resources (whatever small or big they are ) i.e. no more than current 1/48 VF-1s , they just be enlarged copies...

They won´t magically produce incredibly detailed M+ toys from scratch from one day to another just because they increase the scale ; since 1/60 M+ toys would be just the same as the 1/48 VF-1s and based on the popularity of those toys it would be pretty damn understandable to ask for 1/60 toys , that´s like asking for 1/48 quality toys.

if they really were capable of producing even better toys than the 1/48 VF-1s they probably would´ve sent the 1/48 VF-1 line to hell by now and started a new 1/32 VF-1 line with more detail just like what they did with 1/60 because BIG is BETTER , but wait ...they haven´t done that have they ? no they haven´t , why ? cause they can´t risk to produce such potentially unpractical toys and they wouldn´t be able to put even more detail in those toys than what they have done with the 1/48 VF-1s , just like what would happen with 1/48 M+ toys.

If the only decent M+ toys were done in 1/48 I would probably buy them , but that doesn´t mean 1/48 is the optimal alternative for better M+ toys.

Well, I for one perfectly understand what I'm asking for. I'm mainly in it for consistency. I don't ask that Yamato make anything larger than a VF. I'm not screaming for them to make the Monster or Q-rau in 1/48 because I understand that those would just be incredibly stupidly large. Say for example, I bought a 1/72 F-14 model. It's cool. It's nice. It's detailed. Spanky. Then, I go out, and just to get them the same size, I go buy a 1/48 Me-109. It's cool. It's nice. It's detailed. It's also horribly out of proportion with the F-14. So I buy a 1/48 F-14 model instead. While it's larger, the F-14 is by no means unmanagable. I don't know how many of you have handled 1/48 F-14 models, but I personally don't find them to be so large. 1/32 however is another matter, and I won't go there.

I also hope you realize that most of us know that a 1/48 will not necessarily have more detail than the 1/60, although the fact remains that the larger size allows you to do different things. Just think how small those little pegs in the 1/48's nose would be if the same transformation was applied to a 1/60. Larger size doesn't have to mean better detail. Larger size can also mean more overall accuracy and aesthetics in all 3-modes. You keep telling us about detail, and I think we get the picture already.

Your 1/32 arguement is interesting, but doesn't quite work. It's like the law of diminishing returns. The more you make of something, the less you get out of it. Likewise, the bigger and more expensive the toy, the less people are going to buy it. This logic holds true for the 1/48, but the 1/48 line was meant to be for the high-spending collectors in the first place and thus Yamato made limited product runs (I don't care what Monkey Nugget claims he saw in Japan). It surged in popularity due to the somewhat lackadaisical construction of the 1/60 and thus we've seen Yamato decide to go for a second run. It's as if they've found their Valkyrie "sweet-spot." High spending collectors shell out thousands to buy them, and the toys are cheap enough so that even casual purchasers such as myself have been suckered into buying half a dozen or so. So yes, 1/32 would have been ridiculous. 1/48 found a nice happy median which increased their profits far more than a simple "limited edition" toy could ever have.

[Sundown]

I´m just curious as to why all this people want to get 1/48 M+ toys immediately without even considering what they would actually be getting...most of the people that say they want 1/48 M+ valks would probably say they want everything in 1/48 from an ant to Bodolza fortress thinking they would all be the same kind of toy (size , detail & price).

Why do you continually assume this? You're not the only person that comprehends the concept of "scale" around these parts. We're not all idiots here, contrary to popular opinion. A 1/48 M+ Valk would be monstrous. It would be silly expensive. Many of us don't mind. And it's still certainly more practical than the 1/60 Monster.

Ok, who here that wants a 1/48 M0 or M+ Valk really wants a 1/48 Boldolza fortress? Really? Raise your hand. Yeah, didn't think so.

I'll admit that I've had fantasies about a 1/48 Regult, but I'm well aware that it would be horribly ungainly and horrendously expensive if they ever did make one. But again, no less so than the 1/60 Monster.

We're not all clueless idjits here when we ask for a 1/48 M+ Valk, and don't appreciate the constant insinuations that we are. We know what we're in for. And we also don't need a thrice rehashed lecture on the subject matter when we're asking for a 1/48 M+ or M0 Valk, which you claim you're not against.

if they really were capable of producing even better toys than the 1/48 VF-1s they probably would´ve  sent the 1/48 VF-1 line to hell by now and started a new 1/32 VF-1 line with more detail just like what they did with 1/60 because BIG is BETTER , but wait ...they haven´t done that have they ? no they haven´t , why ? cause they can´t risk to produce such potentially unpractical toys and they wouldn´t be able to put even more detail in those toys than what they have done with the 1/48 VF-1s , just like what would happen with 1/48 M+ toys.

And therein lies your assumption. Just because Yamato decides to produce a larger scale toy doesn't mean they'll abandon their smaller scale line. They've said time and time again that smaller scale toys will be made available... and there's been more confirmation of them than of any other 1/48 toys coming down the line.

You're also setting up the Straw Man argument that Bigger is better, here. It obviously isn't. And those of us who like the 1/48 line don't buy unequivocally into that line of thought. I consider the 1/48 scale, as far as Valks are concerned, a workable size that approaches somewhat cumbersome in the case of the YF-21. But even so, the latter isn't completely un-doable. And that's about as big as a Valk would ever get. Yes, a 1/60 or 1/55 YF-21 would be more pracitcal. Yes, they should make one in that scale. But does that make me want a 1/48 any less?

No.

It then grows more clear that your attempts to enlighten the 1/48 hopefuls is based largely on your fear that additions to the 1/48 line will dilute development of smaller scale Macross toys that you desire. I find this fear unfounded, especially in light of Yamato's plans, roadmaps, and statements. The paranoia is largely unfounded.

And apparently they can afford to produce potentially unpractical toys. I reference, once again, the 1/60 Q-Rau and 1/60 Monster.

If the only decent M+ toys were done in 1/48 I would probably buy them , but that doesn´t mean 1/48 is the optimal alternative for better M+ toys.

For you. Some of us want 1/48 M+, size, warts, costs, and all. And either way, a 1/48 line and a line of smaller scale toys are once again, for emphasis: not mutually exclusive. You might have a point if Yamato could only produce one line or the other. But that's simply not the case. And that's simply not what the company plans on doing either.

-Al

[Roy's Blues]

my 2 cents:

The reason I returned to the fold from Transformers fandom was Mac Plus. More specifically the Valkyries of Mac Plus. While I like the YF-19, the YF-21 has always been my favorite.

I hunted Yamato's Mac Plus toys on Ebay for the best deal I could find, and yes I am one of the evil Ebay snipers Soon I started selling on Ebay, and stumbled across Macrossworld, ( Thanks Shawn and Graham ) and then I found Valkyrie-Exchange (props To Kevin)

To the point: I will buy all three Mac Plus Valks from Kevin be they in 1/60 or 1/48. I would prefer 1/48. Bigger the better. More room for more detail. The only issue I am going to have with Yamato is: Include the fastpacks Dammit!

I love YF-21 with FP, but Purple? What were the thinking?

Huge boxes are fun!

[Aegis!]

We're not all idiots here, contrary to popular opinion. A 1/48 M+ Valk would be monstrous. It would be silly expensive. Many of us don't mind. And it's still certainly more practical than the 1/60 Monster

I haven´t said in any case any of the people involved in this disscussion are idiots , I´m just curious as to why some people prefer 1/48 scale M+ toys knowing that they would be unpractical and not much more detailed or wonderful pieces of engineering than current 1/48 toys.

And therein lies your assumption. Just because Yamato decides to produce a larger scale toy doesn't mean they'll abandon their smaller scale line. They've said time and time again that smaller scale toys will be made available... and there's been more confirmation of them than of any other 1/48 toys coming down the line.

Hey , I´ve said it before , even if they did a smaller 1/60 scale M+ toys as well as 1/48 versions I WILL get the larger ones, I will always get the best toy available of the mechas I want . I´m not paranoid about Yamato producing just 1/48 toys , I´ll probably buy some of those without a doubt but I´d still think they´re not the best renditions we could get , they´ll just be enlarged versions of the optimal toy (1/60).

I just think 1/48 isn´t an utterly important neccesity to get the best toy. I personally think the best toy would be in 1/60 scale because that would be at the same level than the 1/48 VF-1s and I can´t imagine something even bigger being better.

Yes, a 1/60 or 1/55 YF-21 would be more pracitcal. Yes, they should make one in that scale. But does that make me want a 1/48 any less?

Of course not. as I said , if they made the two versions I will get the best , if in this case the 1/48 version results to be the best rendition I WILL get it , but at this point I don´t believe it will be (for all reason stated before ).

And apparently they can afford to produce potentially unpractical toys. I reference, once again, the 1/60 Q-Rau and 1/60 Monster

Of coruse they can , but will they ever be mass production toys ? no , they´ll probably be limited edition toys and won´t see as many sales as the other toys . And why do you keep mentioning the Q-rau along side the Monster ? I don´t think it´s gonna be unpractical or anything like that , if anything it´s gonna be a nice addition to the 1/60 line , it is only the Mosnter which is the unpractical toy here. OH and you forgot the DYRL helmet , but that one is a very limited edition toy as well

For you. Some of us want 1/48 M+, size, warts, costs, and all. And either way, a 1/48 line and a line of smaller scale toys are once again, for emphasis: not mutually exclusive. You might have a point if Yamato could only produce one line or the other. But that's simply not the case. And that's simply not what the company plans on doing either.

I´m not at all saying they should choose one scale or another , they should make the two versions of course , and if the 1/48 version ends up being the best then I´ll buy the damn thing but once again I´ll still think it´s size wasn´t something necessary to achieve the best toy.

[VF-19 pilot!!!]

jesus christ gentlemen!!!!!!

just by both scales!!!!! we all love macross no matter what the scale..... make a complete collection and get whatever is produced if you like it....

there is no need for this bickering!!!!

[tom64ss]

Before I start, I'm not flaming anyone. I know from my last post it may seem like I think the 1/60s suck. I don't. I got a little out of hand last time because this otherwise normal discussion was brought down to the level of name-calling.

I´m just curious as to why some people prefer 1/48 scale M+ toys knowing that they would be unpractical and not much more detailed or wonderful pieces of engineering than current 1/48 toys.

I think this sentence explains both parts of the root of where I start to feel the need to oppose you.

First, I admire you Aegis, for standing by your position, but it comes down to the plain and simple statement,

Just because it seems impractical to you, doesn't mean it's impractical to the rest of us.

We know how big it would be and yet there are many of us that still keep telling you that we'd prefer it in 1/48. Doesn't our opinion count as much as yours? Because a lot of your responses seem very condesending. I know some think we're a minority, but it seems to me that there are many more people who vocally want Mac+ toy in 1/48 than there are that want it in 1/60.

Second, I know there would be ample details on a 1/60 YF-19, but why do you think there wouldn't be more on a 1/48. Even though the 1/60 YF-19 would as big as a 1/48 in overall size, the cockpit and pilot would still be 1/60 scale. You can't say that the cockpit's on the 1/60 VF-1s are even close to the detail in the 1/48s. How about being able to add the back seat? That would certainly be more likely to be found on a 1/48 toy. Opening hatches and and overly detailed extras just don't look "to scale" on a 1/60 toy IMO.

My other point is that when people say "I don't want Yamato to only make it in 1/48, I wonder why the 1/72 toys just don't count to them.

Lastly, I think the Q-rau is brought up because that toy is roughly the same size as a 1/48 YF-19 would be, so if that's not too big of a toy, the 1/48 Mac+ shouldn't be either.

The Monster will be just that, a monster........................... I still want one though.

Edited November 25, 2003 by tom64ss

[Sumdumgai]

I know some think we're a minority, but it seems to me that there are many more people who vocally want Mac+ toy in 1/48 than there are that want it in 1/60.

Right, now where are those poll-happy people? That could sort that out.

I want a Q-Rau, I want a 1/48 YF-19, I want my crap to be in the same scale, although I think I'll just get a 1/60 Q-rau...

Oh screw it, if they make a 1/48 to be in scale with the VF-1 I'll see about it.

I want a VF-19A maybe, but I don't like the Macross 7 19 variants. I do want a VF-22 though, I think they look cool.

Oh yeah, sorry but.. VF-4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wants!!!

[imode]

Just because it seems impractical to you, doesn't mean it's impractical to the rest of us.

I'm reminded of the Yao Ming, Mini-me powerbook commercial

[Sundown]

I think this sentence explains both parts of the root of where I start to feel the need to oppose you.

First, I admire you Aegis, for standing by your position, but it comes down to the plain and simple statement,

Just because it seems impractical to you, doesn't mean it's impractical to the rest of us.

We know how big it would be and yet there are many of us that still keep telling you that we'd prefer it in 1/48. Doesn't our opinion count as much as yours? Because a lot of your responses seem very condesending.

Thank you. "Impractical" to *Aegis*. Something slightly cumbersome would still suit many of us fine, to have something in scale to the VF-1. We'll put up with it. Some people want the Monster. Telling them it's impractical to *you* doesn't make them want it any less for their own reasons. It's the somewhat condescending tone that gets us to respond here.

Lastly, I think the Q-rau is brought up because that toy is roughly the same size as a 1/48 YF-19 would be, so if that's not too big of a toy, the 1/48 Mac+ shouldn't be either.

The Monster will be just that, a monster...........................  I still want one though.

Bingo. The Q-Rau will be about as big as the YF-19. It's certainly bigger than a 1/48 VF-1. And likely bigger than the M0 Valks. If the Q-Rau's not impractical, none of the others are.

-Al

Edited November 26, 2003 by Sundown

[Aegis!]

First, I admire you Aegis, for standing by your position, but it comes down to the plain and simple statement,

Just because it seems impractical to you, doesn't mean it's impractical to the rest of us.

THANKS , that´s all I wanted to hear , a coherent and reasonable explanation for your preferences, nothing more than that

Doesn't our opinion count as much as yours? Because a lot of your responses seem very condesending. I know some think we're a minority, but it seems to me that there are many more people who vocally want Mac+ toy in 1/48 than there are that want it in 1/60.

Of course it counts as much as mine , and this works the other way around as well. I´m not 100% in favour of 1/60 M+ toys , I´m just waiting to see which of the two versions (if ever produced) will be the best overall. I´m not gonna waste my money in an inferior toy if there´s gonna be a better version , if such version results to be 1/48 then so be it , I´ll buy it.

Second, I know there would be ample details on a 1/60 YF-19, but why do you think there wouldn't be more on a 1/48.

Cause if they were able to put even more detail just by enlarging the toy then the 1/48 Vf-1 line would´ve been ignored in favour of an even larger scale which hasn´t ( and probably won´t ever ) happened.

I just don´t believe we´ll get a better toy just by making in bigger , but whatever happens I´ll get the best toy , at this point I don´t give a jalapeño about what scale they´re in , I just want the best toy. hopefully it won´t be utterly big , whatever scale they choose.

[Nani?!]

I know I said my last post was my last post in this thread, but I guess not....

First off, to Tom,

wow... if you made your point the way you last did the first time around,

I would have totally agreed with you.

Like I've mentioned before I do not think 1/48 yamato's suck. My point was that for the price,

it was more practical for a lot of people to buy the 1/60 scale rather than the 1/48. Your past

comment stating "In the end, it's really the price tag, isn't it?" really came across offensive in the

reality that for some people price is a concern. With the fastpacks those 1/48 cost about 3 times

as much as a 1/60 with fastpacks. Is it 3 times superior to a 1/60? not my opinion... and hence it

wasn't worth the money (lack there of) for me.

but anyway...

your point is rather clear now.

1/48's ARE and have always been cool... I never denied that (I myself still yearn for a low vis)...

but right now... it's just too damn pricey for me...

And as for the 1/72 Mac+'s...

By being the first valks made by yamato 3-4 years back and with all that drama with it's intial release,

they really lack the quality and the relative accuracy that the vf series have gained by experience.

So atleast speaking from my point of view, yamato making 1/60 scale version of mac+ valks almost

feels like a fresh start for a Mac+ fanatic like myself. Actually, if they decide to resculpt the yf 21 and

the vf 11b, it will be.... and so going directly to 1/48 with a kick ass new sculpt will be a skip for us 1/60

people...

Anyway.... Good Lord, we pay them enough money, shiet.... yamato should please us all!

[imode]

Yay! I think we all finally see eye to eye!

[DrClay]

NO you're all wrong, ALL OF YOU! I am the only one here who is ever right about anything, so there!

[Aegis!]

NO you're all wrong, ALL OF YOU! I am the only one here who is ever right about anything, so there!

Naaa , I thought I was the one who was right about everything