Validity of the Super Long Range Emigration Strategy

[Killer Robot]

I would be willing to bet that Grace or one of her cybernetic cronies took a lesson from Sharon and hacked the entire Earth Defense. Grace's Fold Network plan was in the works for years and I wouldn't be surprise if she used the Sheryl Concert tours as a way to plant viruses and/or spies in advance for the for the planned invasion with the Vajra. With a single cyborg crony upgraded with a fold quatz implants per fleet/colony I imagine it would be a simple task for Grace to hack into and shut down each UN Spacey Defense network by proxy.

I'll bet against. They picked Frontier because it was "technologically backwards" regarding implants and cyborg capabilities compared to most jurisdictions and would thus be less aware about even looking for cyborg infiltrators. Doing the same thing in the more cyborg-savvy parts of the galaxy would only risk premature discovery. And once you have control of all the Vajra and the capability for near-instant travel through the Galaxy, no one has the defenses to shut you out forever.

[Zinjo]

I've always figured that by 2059 humanity realized that the emigration fleets were not only for species survival, but an opportunity to exploit new resource hubs, creating new markets with colony worlds as well as the search for Protoculture artifacts and alien technologies to study for corporate exploitation or military application.

The galaxy is vast and the PC's Stellar Republic spanned a large portion of it, so the risks for some are out weighed by the potential benefits. The Galaxy fleet used the autonomy of a deep space fleet to experiment with technologies that would have been previously prohibited on member worlds of the Galaxy Network. Then you have the Frontier fleet in who's true purpose was to search of new technologies to benefit the Briler Corporation, while the citizens were allowed to believe they were on an exclusive emigration mission.

Essentially Kawamori used the Frontier series to explore the world of multi-national corporations by having the two principal fleets sponsored by Multi-planetary corporations. One a benign corporate entity while the other was not and yet the two businesses were very much aware of each other and what each was doing.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Zinjo

[dreamweaver13]

I've always figured that by 2059 humanity realized that the emigration fleets were not only for species survival, but an opportunity to exploit new resource hubs, creating new markets with colony worlds as well as the search for Protoculture artifacts and alien technologies to study for corporate exploitation or military application.

The galaxy is vast and the PC's Stellar Republic spanned a large portion of it, so the risks for some are out weighed by the potential benefits. The Galaxy fleet used the autonomy of a deep space fleet to experiment with technologies that would have been previously prohibited on member worlds of the Galaxy Network. Then you have the Frontier fleet in who's true purpose was to search of new technologies to benefit the Briler Corporation, while the citizens were allowed to believe they were on an exclusive emigration mission.

Essentially Kawamori used the Frontier series to explore the world of multi-national corporations by having the two principal fleets sponsored by Multi-planetary corporations. One a benign corporate entity while the other was not and yet the two businesses were very much aware of each other and what each was doing.

Which gives way to a topic i've always found intriguing in the Macross Universe (post SW1): Economics.

When a planet is found, who reaps the resources? Are the resources deemed owned by the Fleet that found the planet? For that matter, is the corporation that financed a particular fleet already riding along the Macross city within that fleet, or does it still have its corporate offices left behind on earth? Is it finders-keepers, or are the discovered planet's resources deemed owned by humanity as a whole (through whatever entity that representes it)?

To put simply, if Company X finances the construction and deployment of Macross Fleet Y, which then finds planet Z, does Company X own planet Z?

[Zinjo]

Which gives way to a topic i've always found intriguing in the Macross Universe (post SW1): Economics.

When a planet is found, who reaps the resources? Are the resources deemed owned by the Fleet that found the planet? For that matter, is the corporation that financed a particular fleet already riding along the Macross city within that fleet, or does it still have its corporate offices left behind on earth? Is it finders-keepers, or are the discovered planet's resources deemed owned by humanity as a whole (through whatever entity that representes it)?

To put simply, if Company X finances the construction and deployment of Macross Fleet Y, which then finds planet Z, does Company X own planet Z?

Well it appears that Briler moved his corporate offices to Frontier. Possibly to avoid planetary taxation. Which makes one wonder how many other corporations have moved their HQs to colony fleets if that's the case?

[RedWolf]

Heh... We all know why Richard Bilrer is on Frontier.

LAI on the other hand produces everything from miclone chambers to Variable Fighters.

This company had enough rep for one of the big names in VF development, Shinsei Industry, to consider a partnership for the next generation Valkyrie.

Macross Galaxy Variable Development Arsenal from its nickname Guld Works suggests it is a subsidiary of General Galaxy. Not a surprise as General Galaxy made a lot of investment for Macross Galaxy Fleet.

[Zinjo]

Heh... We all know why Richard Bilrer is on Frontier.

LAI on the other hand produces everything from miclone chambers to Variable Fighters.

This company had enough rep for one of the big names in VF development, Shinsei Industry, to consider a partnership for the next generation Valkyrie.

Macross Galaxy Variable Development Arsenal from its nickname Guld Works suggests it is a subsidiary of General Galaxy. Not a surprise as General Galaxy made a lot of investment for Macross Galaxy Fleet.

Was it really a partnership or did LAI sub-contract the work from the developers on behalf of the Frontier fleet?

Shinsei and GG are both Earth based government defense contractors. They developed the YF-24 prototype and then farmed out the actual construction projects to various colonies and fleets, to either build the VF-24 to spec or develop their own VFs based on the YF-24 airframe.

Frontier and Galaxy opted for the latter, we don't know how many others adapted the YF-24, like Frontier and Galaxy.

[Cpt_Gloval]

What's even more disturbing is that a defense net that condensed and cluttered couldn't even stop 2 valks from making landfall.

Let's keep in mind that the defenses that fired upon the YF-19 and 21 were probably under Sharon's control. As UNS craft they would have had some form of IDENT that would had caused the defense screen to ignore them. Just like Virtwalli's troop mecha did during the final battle of SW1 with Boddole Zer's fleet. With out this even friendlies that came in range would be fired upon making the planet unapproachable. You would have to blast your way in for any and every visit to the surface. Would be like having to break down your door every time you came home. Very costly.

This is why there is so much money spent in today's world, and I would assume in the Macross universe, to encrypt all communication and keep details, like the defense screen frequency, secure and hidden.

[Ghost Train]

I find this discussion more and more fruitless given that the series/movies are retelling of fictitious events that happened in a fictitious Universe. For all we know Isamu could have really just descended into Earth with substantially less defenses, Guld one shotted Ghost-X9, and Myung was actually hideously fat ... but for the Macross Plus Movie/Series it was overdramatized with lots of lasers going pew pew.

[RedWolf]

Was it really a partnership or did LAI sub-contract the work from the developers on behalf of the Frontier fleet?

We know that the VF-25 is a NUNS approved craft developed in Frontier between Shinsei Industry and LAI. Meaning the VF-25 is slated to be a mainline craft for NUNS. The YF-24 since we haven't heard of a VF-24 yet appears to be a proof of concept of the basic technologies employed by both the VF-25 and VF-27.

The VF-25 was used for combat testing by the PMC SMS. Usually if we go by Macross game history like M3, VF-X and VF-X2 Special Forces gets first dibs for combat testing of AVF. Also Bilrer is rich enough for every VF-25 Alto wrecks.

The VF-27 is another case as NUNS hasn't approved of its mass production because Macross Galaxy kept a lot things from them. Like the mass production of the AIF9V.

As for the Earth defense net it appears to be too centralized to SDF-1 Macross' control if we go by VF-X2.

Which is probably the reason Macross 13 exists. It is the back up plan if something happens to the Macross. Or in case of invasion a space borne command ship.

Besides the defense net there is still the Grand Cannons which is really a case of overkill.

[DrStrangelove]

Besides the defense net there is still the Grand Cannons which is really a case of overkill.

I keep seeing this, what is its source. Everything I've read makes no mention of completing or rebuilding any of the Grand cannons after SWI

[Uxi]

I keep seeing this, what is its source. Everything I've read makes no mention of completing or rebuilding any of the Grand cannons after SWI

Why wouldn't you rebuild/complete the Grand Cannons?

[Seto Kaiba]

Why wouldn't you rebuild/complete the Grand Cannons?

Because you'd destroy your own orbital defenses and fleet if you fired one?

I'm not sure what the tactical doctrine is in the main continuity, but in the Macross II parallel world continuity the U.N. Spacy focused on stopping the Zentradi with the Minmay Attack and military forces well away from inhabited planets, since that's much safer than allowing them to get into bombardment position and THEN shooting at them with a big surface-based weapon.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

(...) but back in the 1800s up to the the early 1900s most of Europe was profiting greatly from colonizing and plundering what are now third world countries.

Fixed and the response:

Given Kawamori's statement that the Macross universe in the 2040's to 2060's is undergoing "the great age of exploration, with e-mail", Freiflug88's statement makes a lot of sense.

Of course, the Macross universe will be changing once again, with the implimentation of that super fold booster, introduced in MF when they brought Ranka to Garia, that cuts travel times by a tenth...

[Uxi]

Because you'd destroy your own orbital defenses and fleet if you fired one?

I'm not sure what the tactical doctrine is in the main continuity, but in the Macross II parallel world continuity the U.N. Spacy focused on stopping the Zentradi with the Minmay Attack and military forces well away from inhabited planets, since that's much safer than allowing them to get into bombardment position and THEN shooting at them with a big surface-based weapon.

They're not mutually exclusive options, though. Even assuming you couldn't focus the beam a bit more narrow like a bigger version of a "conventional" Macross-scale weapon, next logical tactic would be to not have friendly forces in orbit closer than a certain point. "Bogey force got through" - ZAP! "Roger control, eyes on enemy destruction - coming in to scan the wreckage, over."

Edited March 5, 2010 by Uxi

[Seto Kaiba]

Of course, the Macross universe will be changing once again, with the implimentation of that super fold booster, introduced in MF when they brought Ranka to Garia, that cuts travel times by a tenth...

Wasn't it "to a tenth" not "by a tenth"? At least, that's what I remember the dialogue saying... that the super fold booster eliminated the disparity between real-time and experienced-time during a fold jump, cutting the travel times to a tenth of what they were.

They're not mutually exclusive options, though. Even assuming you couldn't focus the beam a bit more narrow like a bigger version of a "conventional" Macross-scale weapon, next logical tactic would be to not have friendly forces in orbit closer than a certain point. "Bogey force got through" - ZAP! "Roger control, eyes on enemy destruction - coming in to scan the wreckage, over."

Eh, if the enemy fleet has managed to bash its way through your fleet and orbital defenses, things have gone so brutally pear-shaped that shooting at them with a large ground-based beam cannon isn't going to accomplish much except giving them another target to shoot at. Why waste a huge amount of time, money, and effort on a weapon that, in the absolute worst case scenario, will only fire once, and in the best case scenario will never fire at all? It makes much more sense to focus on engaging the enemy away from inhabited planets with the Minmay Attack and the fleet. On average the Minmay Attack cripples the enemy's command structure and leaves their soldiers milling around in confusion... easy pickings for VFs armed with reaction weapons or a fleet bombardment. On a good day, the Minmay Attack reduces the entire enemy fleet to a legion of squealing fangirls and you don't have to bother shooting at them at all. You can just pack them off on their way with a Fire Bomber "Best Hits" CD or something.

(In fact, it's so bloody effective that in the Macross II parallel world continuity the U.N. Spacy insisted on having their latest, greatest VF be optimized for space combat, and supplied their planetside forces with lightly-armed low-budget VFs because they weren't likely to ever actually need them)

EDIT: Also, on more than one occasion it allowed the U.N. Spacy forces to win against absolutely ridiculous odds, with enemy fleets that outnumbered them by hundreds or thousands to one.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[DrStrangelove]

As Seto said orbital defenses preferably as far as possible from the planet, make more sense than a ground based one.

Everybody is based off the same tech base in macross for the most part, so neither side will really have a range advantage, thus anyone in range of a planet based weapon, will be in range of ship weapons

Edited March 5, 2010 by DrStrangelove

[sketchley]

Wasn't it "to a tenth" not "by a tenth"? At least, that's what I remember the dialogue saying... that the super fold booster eliminated the disparity between real-time and experienced-time during a fold jump, cutting the travel times to a tenth of what they were.

Drat! Darn particles and prepositions! Yes, "to a tenth".

Who cares about the dialogue - go with a translation: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/inde...g35077#msg35077 (scroll down to super fold booster)

[miles316]

Fixed and the response:

Given Kawamori's statement that the Macross universe in the 2040's to 2060's is undergoing "the great age of exploration, with e-mail", Freiflug88's statement makes a lot of sense.

Of course, the Macross universe will be changing once again, with the implimentation of that super fold booster, introduced in MF when they brought Ranka to Garia, that cuts travel times by a tenth...

I thought the Super fold technology was dependent on Fold Quartz derived from Dead Vajra making it difficult to acquire more since they all left the Galaxy at the end.

I would assume most of the fold quartz was held on Macross Galaxy or used for the Dimension Eater used in the later part of the series.

I doubt that Super Fold technology will become common place out side of military use even that might be a stretch since they only showed one working Super Fold Drive.

So the ultimate question is the Super Fold tech dependent on a piece of fold quartz made by the Vajra, or did it just give them insight in to a new area of Super Demention science.

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought the Super fold technology was dependent on Fold Quartz derived from Dead dead Vajra making it difficult to acquire more since they all left the Galaxy at the end.

[...]

So the ultimate question is the Super Fold tech dependent on a piece of fold quartz made by the Vajra, or did it just give them insight in to a new area of Super Demention Dimension science.

I don't remember the exact explanation, but it's explained that the Vajra harvest fold quartz or the materials necessary for its creation from interstellar debris, dead stars, and the like... so presumably fold quartz could be mined/produced without having to kill the Vajra to get it... to say nothing of the fact that there's probably scads of the stuff just lying around on the Vajra homeworld that Island-1 lands on thanks to the Vajra having been there do long.

I doubt that Super Fold technology will become common place out side of military use even that might be a stretch since they only showed one working Super Fold Drive.

Rather more than one, actually... Brera's VF-27 was equipped with an external super fold booster system when he took it (and Ranka) to find the Vajra homeworld. It may or may not have been the same one Luca fitted Michel's VF-25G with, but either way that model was a prototype, which means they meant to make more.

[sketchley]

I thought the Super fold technology was dependent on Fold Quartz derived from Dead Vajra making it difficult to acquire more since they all left the Galaxy at the end.

When was it said that the Vajra left the galaxy?

[miles316]

When was it said that the Vajra left the galaxy?

To wards the end Ranka made direct contact with the Vajra, and explained that every Hundred million years they leave the Galaxy, and mate with another Super Dimension lifeforms from a neighboring Galaxy maybe it was just the Queen that left.

Edited March 5, 2010 by miles316

[azrael]

To wards the end Ranka made direct contact with the Vajra, and explained that every Hundred million years they leave the Galaxy, and mate with another Super Dimension lifeforms from a neighboring Galaxy maybe it was just the Queen that left.

I believe that scene described what happened in past tense. Million of years ago, they mated with another hive.

[reeoyuy]

I'm curious about what action the fleet will take if they found a planet with slightly advanced, but non-hostile alien race like Zola. I mean, Zolans are the first non-hostile alien race we saw on Macross; so what's UN Spacy regualtion about this? Claim it as one of their colony, or let the Zolans live in peace and train them to protect themselves (like, giving them VFs for patrol use)? And why the heck the Zolans have english name like, uh, Graham? Maybe the fleet that founded Zola have some english missionary on board . I'd like to know more of Zola and its marsupial inhabitants.

[RedWolf]

I'm curious about what action the fleet will take if they found a planet with slightly advanced, but non-hostile alien race like Zola. I mean, Zolans are the first non-hostile alien race we saw on Macross; so what's UN Spacy regualtion about this? Claim it as one of their colony, or let the Zolans live in peace and train them to protect themselves (like, giving them VFs for patrol use)? And why the heck the Zolans have english name like, uh, Graham? Maybe the fleet that founded Zola have some english missionary on board . I'd like to know more of Zola and its marsupial inhabitants.

Well if the First Contact protocols UN Spacy had before the booby trap happened is still in place "Don't shoot first" is a good policy.

The Zolans adopting human names appear to me what my people call Colonial Mentality. Where the natives copy and emulate too much the foreign influences losing the original cultural identity. Take Graham's deceased wife's name Maria Velasquez Hoyley. Also the radio love story between a rich Human male and Zolan female maid Zomeo and Zoliet.

If we view the new UNG or NUNG as a Human-Zentradi hegemony rather than a confederation Zola is like Earth's little brother.

Now selling or giving Zola their Overtechnology is very reasonable action for the mere fact the frontier became a haven for poachers, pirates and smugglers. Galactic Whales are a tempting exploitable resource for more efficient Fold Engines. These creatures are considered a protected species. A benefit the Vajra did not have.

At the same time Earth doesn't really dictate policy to Zola unlike with their colonies and fleets early on. Zolan military and law enforcement has that non-killing policy.

[reeoyuy]

Ah, Zomeo and Zoliet.

"We can't be together because...you are not a marsupial".

Can't imagine Liza had some sort of kangaroo-pocket; she's hot btw

Anyway, what's the policy regarding colonization if there's no civilized alien race inside? I mean, built a city outside and move the colonists right away or being cautious by keep the colonists inside the dome/ship and spend some time (months or years) to study the planet and declared it safe before actual colonization start?

[miles316]

Ah, Zomeo and Zoliet.

"We can't be together because...you are not a marsupial".

Can't imagine Liza had some sort of kangaroo-pocket; she's hot btw

Anyway, what's the policy regarding colonization if there's no civilized alien race inside? I mean, built a city outside and move the colonists right away or being cautious by keep the colonists inside the dome/ship and spend some time (months or years) to study the planet and declared it safe before actual colonization start?

I would assume once the colony ships landed the domes would be dismantled.

The colony would not land on a planet unless it had been deemed acceptable as a colony M7 & MF landings on planets were the result of enemy fire not intentional planet fall.

MACROSS Frontier landing on the Vajra home world resulted from Leon betrayal in forcing a attack and the Colony sustaining extreme Damage making returning to space impossible so they had to take their chance on a unknown planet.

Edited March 7, 2010 by miles316

[RedWolf]

Ah, Zomeo and Zoliet.

"We can't be together because...you are not a marsupial".

Can't imagine Liza had some sort of kangaroo-pocket; she's hot btw

She doesn't if we go by her full frontal nudity little sister while Basara was in a catatonic state.

If we take Professor Hasford's theory of viral genetic manipulation evolving Humans as not a hack the Zolans ancestors were similarly modified by the Protoculture. (He does have a weird theory the Bird Human would start all over again when in fact it had nothing to do with present humans evolution except the Mayans.)

Also the mere existence of Michael proves all Children of the Protoculture are genetically compatible.

Edited March 7, 2010 by RedWolf

[reeoyuy]

MACROSS Frontier landing on the Vajra home world resulted from Leon betrayal in forcing a attack and the Colony sustaining extreme Damage making returning to space impossible so they had to take their chance on a unknown planet.

But even so, they have option to keep the colonists inside island-1, repair it as necessary to support everyone (not to make it able launch into space again) but prohibit colonists to built anything outside the dome. Until expeditionary forces can declare it safe and no hidden danger lurks.

That aside, where was the location of Ranka's mother singing 'Aimo' (with old Dr. Mao Nome watching) in Ranka's flashback? Galia 4 or Vajra home planet? Sorry if I ask too much, this space exploration is a very interesting topic. I studied biology in university; to find many exotic creatures in unexplorable land is every wildlife researchers dream.

[hulagu]

If we take Professor Hasford's theory of viral genetic manipulation evolving Humans as not a hack the Zolans ancestors were similarly modified by the Protoculture. (He does have a weird theory the Bird Human would start all over again when in fact it had nothing to do with present humans evolution except the Mayans.)

I've wonder how the AFOS was meant to wipe out a belligerent humanity with space-faring tech level weaponry, since a couple of reaction nukes seem to be enough to give it some trouble. Since it was patterned after a Vajra Queen, perhaps the real "song of doom" has a similar ability to summon/bind the Vajra and sic them on the planet?

[miles316]

I've wonder how the AFOS was meant to wipe out a belligerent humanity with space-faring tech level weaponry, since a couple of reaction nukes seem to be enough to give it some trouble. Since it was patterned after a Vajra Queen, perhaps the real "song of doom" has a similar ability to summon/bind the Vajra and sic them on the planet?

The Bird Human Absorbed the reaction Warheads at the insistence of Sara who did not want the island to be contaminated by the radiation.

The Space Whales in M7 Dynamite were immune to a reaction warhead, and even the Vajra were able to resist them after a couple of uses.

Asunimg the Bird Human main weapon waas half as power full as the Macross Cannon destroying Earths citys from orbit would not be a problem though it would have taken a while to completly destroy us all.

[azrael]

Since it was patterned after a Vajra Queen, perhaps the real "song of doom" has a similar ability to summon/bind the Vajra and sic them on the planet?

No. Just because it was based on a Vajra doesn't mean it actually calls Vajra.

[Vepariga]

I think a more logical question for the 'Isamu defense net slip-thru' would be, Why have your targeting and sensory satellites that the defense cannons depend on OUTSIDE of the defense net?, Isamu blew those satellites up before making his spin thru the atmosphere.

[RedWolf]

I think a more logical question for the 'Isamu defense net slip-thru' would be, Why have your targeting and sensory satellites that the defense cannons depend on OUTSIDE of the defense net?, Isamu blew those satellites up before making his spin thru the atmosphere.

What is the question again? Having trouble interpreting what you've said.

Isamu had to shut down all automatic flight systems as to not tip off the defense net. As said by Yan it all comes down to luck.

Basically until they get passed the defense net they are falling like rock.

[Vepariga]

What is the question again? Having trouble interpreting what you've said.

Isamu had to shut down all automatic flight systems as to not tip off the defense net. As said by Yan it all comes down to luck.

Basically until they get passed the defense net they are falling like rock.

yeah but before that he had to take out two satellites to screw the targeting of the defense cannons and to use the debris,i cant remember, but i think they said the satellites where used for something to do with the actual defence. If im mistaken,disregard my comment.

[Zinjo]

We know that the VF-25 is a NUNS approved craft developed in Frontier between Shinsei Industry and LAI. Meaning the VF-25 is slated to be a mainline craft for NUNS. The YF-24 since we haven't heard of a VF-24 yet appears to be a proof of concept of the basic technologies employed by both the VF-25 and VF-27.

The VF-25 was used for combat testing by the PMC SMS. Usually if we go by Macross game history like M3, VF-X and VF-X2 Special Forces gets first dibs for combat testing of AVF. Also Bilrer is rich enough for every VF-25 Alto wrecks.

The VF-27 is another case as NUNS hasn't approved of its mass production because Macross Galaxy kept a lot things from them. Like the mass production of the AIF9V.

I wouldn't be so sure about the VF-25 becoming the mainline fighter of all of NUNS.

Kawamori has already stated that the "new norm" in 2059 is for the Earth based contractors to develop next gen fighters and that colony worlds have every opportunity to adapt them as they see fit. The YF-24 is the airframe that all next gen fighters will be built upon, but not necessarily constructed as per spec.

Keep in mind that the old days of a centralized government is all but gone and that the UNG is mainly a federation of automomous planetary and colonial fleet states. So a single design to be adopted by all colonies and fleets for a particular role, is no longer the norm.

I get the impression that LAI worked in concert with Shinsei to develop the Messiah. Much like how some business software designers provide technical support to customers who desire to customize their program. The customer has purchased the software and by the virtue of their license are able to customize it to their own requirements. They are not required to use it the way it is out of the box if it doesn't suit their purposes.

It seems that the Frontier government felt that the YF-24 didn't suit their purposes and chose to customize the design. So all NUNS forces under the Fontier government may ultimately switch over to the Messiahs. It is an assumption to believe all fleets and colonies will adopt the VF-25 into their fleets.