Gunpods

[Uxi]

Is there any info on the ammo/magazine capacities on the VF-11 gunpod (and it's designation)?

For VF-1, we know the GU-11 is 55mm with 3 barrels and has 200 rounds (though IIRC this is being retconned to 180?)

VF-11 (not sure of the gunpod designation), it's 30mm with 6 barrels, but no info I'm finding on ammo capacity other than 2 spare magazines under the ballistic shield

VF-17 uses 40mm/8 barrel design with one spare magazine stored in the leg (or replaced by the energy beam adapter). No info on ammo capacity. I am a bit surprised at the change in caliber as I would have expected it to use the same ammo as VF-11.

YF-19/VF-19 use the GU-15, but not seeing the caliber, number of barrels or ammo capacity per removable magazine (with at 2 spares under the shield). I'd be inlined to think it's the same 40mm as VF-17, but the gundpod is noticeably puny compared to the VF-11 gunpod (in addition to missing the most manly bayonet)

YF-21/VF-22 went back to non-field reloadable internal magazines like GU-11. Not sure about capacity (other than the Chow-Yun Fat double grip). I do find it interesting that Guld's (and Max's) gunpod appears to be KE weapons but that Gamlin's VF-22 in MD7 appeared to be an energy beam cannon (similar to the one he attached in the latter portions of M7), but that they visually look the same.

IOW, looking to compile info on

1) designation

2) caliber

3) number of barrels

4) magazine capacity (removable or no)

5) number of spare magazines (if applicable).

Is any of this info expanded in the Chronicle from what's available in the Compendium?

[miles316]

Is there any info on the ammo/magazine capacities on the VF-11 gunpod (and it's designation)?

For VF-1, we know the GU-11 is 55mm with 3 barrels and has 200 rounds (though IIRC this is being retconned to 180?)

VF-11 (not sure of the gunpod designation), it's 30mm with 6 barrels, but no info I'm finding on ammo capacity other than 2 spare magazines under the ballistic shield

VF-17 uses 40mm/8 barrel design with one spare magazine stored in the leg (or replaced by the energy beam adapter). No info on ammo capacity. I am a bit surprised at the change in caliber as I would have expected it to use the same ammo as VF-11.

YF-19/VF-19 use the GU-15, but not seeing the caliber, number of barrels or ammo capacity per removable magazine (with at 2 spares under the shield). I'd be inlined to think it's the same 40mm as VF-17, but the gundpod is noticeably puny compared to the VF-11 gunpod (in addition to missing the most manly bayonet)

YF-21/VF-22 went back to non-field reloadable internal magazines like GU-11. Not sure about capacity (other than the Chow-Yun Fat double grip). I do find it interesting that Guld's (and Max's) gunpod appears to be KE weapons but that Gamlin's VF-22 in MD7 appeared to be an energy beam cannon (similar to the one he attached in the latter portions of M7), but that they visually look the same.

IOW, looking to compile info on

1) designation

2) caliber

3) number of barrels

4) magazine capacity (removable or no)

5) number of spare magazines (if applicable).

Is any of this info expanded in the Chronicle from what's available in the Compendium?

I have no info on the weapons but I have watched M Plus like a million times and A few hundred round of ammo would be a drop in the bucket for most Gatling guns since they are Ammo hogs.

Currently the only nation that arms it planes with the Gatling gun is the US, and they generally carry 500 rounds every other country equips its planes except for the US supplied ones with single barrel cannons that carry a couple hundred rounds.

[Ghost Train]

Hero Valk: Over 9000 rounds with magic-reloads.

Fodder: 3 rounds.

[miles316]

Here is a wikipedia entry for 30mm cannon rounds and it has links to various Cannons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_mm_caliber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAU-8_Avenger this one has a picture of the Avenger cannon system complete with Ammo drum next to a VW Bug.

Gun Pods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._aircraft_gun_pods

Edited February 7, 2010 by miles316

[Temjin]

Hero Valk: Over 9000 rounds with magic-reloads.

Not magic, just install this first and have the Gun pod attach to it.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:N64-gameshark.jpg

[Seto Kaiba]

Is there any info on the ammo/magazine capacities on the VF-11 gunpod (and it's designation)?

Nope. Chronicle mistakenly labeled it as the GU-15 or something along those lines in one of the VF-11 sheets, but that's clearly not right because the GU-15 is what the VF-19 carries. Nothing thus far has been provided except the number of barrels the gunpod has (6), caliber (30mm), and the fact that the bayonet was axed from later models as a cost saving move.

For VF-1, we know the GU-11 is 55mm with 3 barrels and has 200 rounds (though IIRC this is being retconned to 180?)

Not retconned, I don't think... seems more like a typo, and the other source (Master File) citing it is non-canon... so it's a gray area. In terms of which is correct, I would stick with 200 as it's been the VF-1's ammo load since '82.

VF-17 uses 40mm/8 barrel design with one spare magazine stored in the leg (or replaced by the energy beam adapter). No info on ammo capacity. I am a bit surprised at the change in caliber as I would have expected it to use the same ammo as VF-11.

Actually, the MC-17A gatling cannon used on the VF-17 and VF-171 has only 7 barrels, not 8. No notes on ammo capacity.

EDIT: Kudos to Robelwell202 for spotting an error on my part... the VF-171's gunpod has 8 barrels, and is presumably the GU-14B. The other gunpod mentioned for the VF-171 is the MC-17C multipurpose gunpod, which likely retains the 7-barrel configuration of its predecessor.

YF-21/VF-22 went back to non-field reloadable internal magazines like GU-11. Not sure about capacity (other than the Chow-Yun Fat double grip). I do find it interesting that Guld's (and Max's) gunpod appears to be KE weapons but that Gamlin's VF-22 in MD7 appeared to be an energy beam cannon (similar to the one he attached in the latter portions of M7), but that they visually look the same.

If memory serves, Chronicle does identify them differently... one is, I think, the BP-14D, which is cited as a multipurpose gunpod (the same sort of citation given to the MC-17A used by the VF-17), whereas the GV-17L used by the YF-21 and presumably Max and Milia's VF-22S's is listed as a cartridge-less gunpod.

EDIT: Another goofball mistake on my part spotted, the gunpod on Gamlin's VF-22S is a BP-14D, not GU-14B.

Is any of this info expanded in the Chronicle from what's available in the Compendium?

No.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

Not retconned, I don't think... seems more like a typo, and the other source (Master File) citing it is non-canon... so it's a gray area. In terms of which is correct, I would stick with 200 as it's been the VF-1's ammo load since '82.

The Chronicle only mentioned the 180-figure once. Haven't seen it since.

If memory serves, Chronicle does identify them differently... one is, I think, the BP-14D, which is cited as a multipurpose gunpod (the same sort of citation given to the MC-17A used by the VF-17), whereas the GV-17L used by the YF-21 and presumably Max and Milia's VF-22S's is listed as a cartridge-less gunpod.

EDIT: Another goofball mistake on my part spotted, the gunpod on Gamlin's VF-22S is a BP-14D, not GU-14B.

According to the Chronicle, Gamlin's VF-22 used the GV-17L. Max and Milia's VF-22s used the BP-14D.

[Seto Kaiba]

The Chronicle only mentioned the 180-figure once. Haven't seen it since.

Yeah, I figured it was a transposition error or something along those lines... *shrug*

Apart from that 180-round figure appearing once in Chronicle, the only other recent source I can recall mentioning it as being 180 instead of 200 was the Master File, which is pretty weak as a source of info due to all the material borrowed whole-cloth from the old MAT book. The 200 round figure is the safer of the two by far, even if the cutaway in the VF-1 master file is damn pretty. I think one of the games might've also put 180 down as the number of rounds in the gunpod, but I forget which.

According to the Chronicle, Gamlin's VF-22 used the GV-17L. Max and Milia's VF-22s used the BP-14D.

My bad. At the time I wrote my post, my Chronicle sheets were spread all over hell while I reorganized them into the recommended order and started putting stuff into binder 5. Doesn't help that the two gunpods are identical in general appearance.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Uxi]

Annoying that there's not more info in the Chronicles. Appears I'm still not missing much except the pictures. Compendium also puts GV-17L on Guld's YF-21 and it's definitely not the same sound or visual effect as Gamlin's.

Anyone want to conjecture on some of this info? I'm actually thinking VF-19 would use the same ammo as VF-11. Logistically that would make more sense, especially since VF-19 is supposed to be a mainline fighter and not special forces. That would lend itself to think that Guld would have to be a similar caliber, to be effective in competition.

Still, prototypes frequently test out other equipment not intended for general production, so it's possible either use the special ops or general VF-11 caliber.

Maybe go crawling through screenshots on Plus again to see if there's anything on the screens in New Eden.

[azrael]

Appears I'm still not missing much except the pictures. Compendium also puts GV-17L on Guld's YF-21 and it's definitely not the same sound or visual effect as Gamlin's.

Anyone want to conjecture on some of this info?

The YF-21's GV-17L was made by Howard/GE. Gamlin's VF-22's GV-17L was made by Hughes/GE. Maybe that has something to do with it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Annoying that there's not more info in the Chronicles. Appears I'm still not missing much except the pictures. Compendium also puts GV-17L on Guld's YF-21 and it's definitely not the same sound or visual effect as Gamlin's.

Yeah, it is a bit disappointing that the writers of Macross Chronicle haven't taken advantage of the opportunity to sort out some of the areas where more detail would've been helpful, but it's still an incredibly useful condensation of the material that was already out there and spread across dozens of different publications. I wasn't expecting much, since going into minute and obsessive detail about the capabilities of a giant robot like Kawamori did with the VF-1 Valkyrie seems to be a rare occurrence in mecha anime.

Anyone want to conjecture on some of this info?

Sure, we can roll with that.

I'm actually thinking VF-19 would use the same ammo as VF-11. Logistically that would make more sense, especially since VF-19 is supposed to be a mainline fighter and not special forces. That would lend itself to think that Guld would have to be a similar caliber, to be effective in competition.

Logistically speaking, since the VF-19 was, at least on paper, intended to replace the U.N. Spacy's aging fleet of VF-11's, I don't think they would've felt themselves committed to having the two fighters share the ammunition. It would make a bit of sense to use existing ammo stocks to ease the transition as much as possible, but it's far from being a logistical necessity since at least one fleet out there (37th Colony - Macross 7) already had to stock three different calibers of ammunition, maybe more, for its forces. (VF-11C's 30mm, VA-3's 60mm, VF-17's 40mm, poss. 55mm if the VF-4s we see in M7T carry the GU-11 as some sources say they can, etc.)

Guld's YF-21 is, canonically, using a different TYPE of ammunition, if not a different caliber entirely. It would make a certain amount of sense for the two prototypes to have similar calibers to ease the comparison, but Guld's ammo was cartridge-less, whereas Isamu's wasn't... so it's no guarantee they're both using the same size of round either.

In terms of how much ammo they hold, IMO the RPG sites out there tend to dramatically overestimate the capacity of their magazines. Perhaps the most helpful way to benchmark ammo capacity is to compare the magazine size to that of the GPU-9's internal helical feed and its 550 35mm rounds. That said, just going on magazine size and the need for some kind of machinery in the feed system itself, I'd put an arbitrary maximum of somewhere around 300 rounds for anything with a removable magazine, with 200-250 being much more likely, especially for higher-caliber examples like the VF-17's MC-17A. The internal feed on the GV-17L, I would say probably sports roughly 2x that of the average magazine, which would explain the necessity to carry two of them to match or exceed the ammo capacity of the units carrying gun pods with removable magazines. That, of course, is all arch speculation on my part.

The YF-21's GV-17L was made by Howard/GE. Gamlin's VF-22's GV-17L was made by Hughes/GE. Maybe that has something to do with it.

'kay... Howard/GE and Hughes/GE? Am I reading too much into this, or is there a rather obvious aviation in-joke here?

Edited February 9, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

'kay... Howard/GE and Hughes/GE? Am I reading too much into this, or is there a rather obvious aviation in-joke here?

There are a plethora of in-jokes in Macross. Sadly, a large chunk of them are lost in the translation to English. Two of my favourites are a play on Mitsubishi (lit. trans. "three diamonds"):

- M7's Three-Star Kairetsu Factory ship (playing on the Mitsubishi Kairetsu)

- MF's Itsubishi Heavy Industries (lit. trans. "five diamonds")

[Vostok 7]

'kay... Howard/GE and Hughes/GE? Am I reading too much into this, or is there a rather obvious aviation in-joke here?

What about the VF-1 being made by Northrom?

Or the F203 by McNell Douglar?

Or the Commanchero and Sea Sargent by Siokorvski?

Or the SC-27 Star Goose by Stonewell?

Or the SF-3A Lancer by Lockhee?

Or the VF-X prototype by Stonewell/Bellcom?

Yeah, there's only a whole lot of aviation in-jokes in Macross.

[Uxi]

Yeah, it is a bit disappointing that the writers of Macross Chronicle haven't taken advantage of the opportunity to sort out some of the areas where more detail would've been helpful, but it's still an incredibly useful condensation of the material that was already out there and spread across dozens of different publications. I wasn't expecting much, since going into minute and obsessive detail about the capabilities of a giant robot like Kawamori did with the VF-1 Valkyrie seems to be a rare occurrence in mecha anime.

Sure. And only a total geek like me is interested in that minutae to begin with.

Logistically speaking, since the VF-19 was, at least on paper, intended to replace the U.N. Spacy's aging fleet of VF-11's, I don't think they would've felt themselves committed to having the two fighters share the ammunition. It would make a bit of sense to use existing ammo stocks to ease the transition as much as possible, but it's far from being a logistical necessity since at least one fleet out there (37th Colony - Macross 7) already had to stock three different calibers of ammunition, maybe more, for its forces. (VF-11C's 30mm, VA-3's 60mm, VF-17's 40mm, poss. 55mm if the VF-4s we see in M7T carry the GU-11 as some sources say they can, etc.)

Agreed, it's definitely possible for them to switch ammunitions and weapon systems. I just didn't recall seeing anywhere that SuperNova was intended to increase lethality over VF-11, but to add Jump Booster capability, Pinpoint Barrier, and perhaps Active Stealth. As we see in Plus, and 7, the VF-11C was plenty effective when given an ace pilot.

I'm surprised we didn't see more carry over of gunpods (for example, the Super Nova AVF just being required to use the VF-11B and/or C gunpod) like we see in real life. Hell, the USAF and USN have been using the M61 Vulcan forever. One of the things that kinda sparked my interest on this was looking at the 1/60 VF-11B's gunpod and noticing how much ... beefier... it is than both the YF-19 and YF-21 pods. Even without the cool bayonet, both of those more advanced valks look like they have inferior gunpods in comparison, though offset with useful built-in weaponry (both ironically seemingly also lose most of the utility of their head laser since battroid can't point it forward in the point-defense role used on VF-0, VF-1, and seemingly capable in VF-11). The other was speculating on weapon loads on the other VF's inspired by the layout of from the VF-1 Master File.

Guld's YF-21 is, canonically, using a different TYPE of ammunition, if not a different caliber entirely. It would make a certain amount of sense for the two prototypes to have similar calibers to ease the comparison, but Guld's ammo was cartridge-less, whereas Isamu's wasn't... so it's no guarantee they're both using the same size of round either.

Right. Often times we also see prototypes using equipment not intended for general issue but just thrown in the test just because. Since it was a face-off on their effectiveness, I'd expect the general capabilities to be roughly equivalent (they wouldn't go to a much larger caliber especially if it would offset capacity or range or rate of fire or the like and negatively effect their performance - but just the same going to some ueber-expensive ammunition that's more effective in every category raises the cost of use could negatively effect the system - maybe one of the factors that determined in YF-19's favor was not going to the new caseless ammunition - in addition to the whole not surviving thing ).

In terms of how much ammo they hold, IMO the RPG sites out there tend to dramatically overestimate the capacity of their magazines. Perhaps the most helpful way to benchmark ammo capacity is to compare the magazine size to that of the GPU-9's internal helical feed and its 550 35mm rounds. That said, just going on magazine size and the need for some kind of machinery in the feed system itself, I'd put an arbitrary maximum of somewhere around 300 rounds for anything with a removable magazine, with 200-250 being much more likely, especially for higher-caliber examples like the VF-17's MC-17A. The internal feed on the GV-17L, I would say probably sports roughly 2x that of the average magazine, which would explain the necessity to carry two of them to match or exceed the ammo capacity of the units carrying gun pods with removable magazines. That, of course, is all arch speculation on my part.

Sounds reasonable. Given the caliber decrease, but removable mag, I'm thinking about 300 rounds per VF-11B magazine (depending on how they're laid out, maybe more). The gunpod is much larger than the GU-11 but caliber is very nearly half. I'd almost want to go as 400 rounds per magazine. I'd imagine it would be a belt that would have to be flat against the half cylinder cover, though instead of coiled around, though, which would need it to be rear loading Unless the magazine isn't just a shell like it is on the toy and is more of a replacement cylinder/drum (at least on some portion of it's length). No cutaways showing the VF-11B gunpod and/or magazine are there? Really wished the next Master File would be VF-11.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, there's only a whole lot of aviation in-jokes in Macross.

I wouldn't really call those in-jokes, since they're pretty bloody obvious and they're not really plays on words or anything like that, nice references to real-world aviation, but not really jokes per se. The ones Sketchley mentioned, and the new data on the manufacturers of the VF-22's gunpod(s) are more in line with plays on words...

Sure. And only a total geek like me is interested in that minutae to begin with.

Oh you're not the only one... I'm an engineer by nature, so meticulous exactitude is right up my alley.

Agreed, it's definitely possible for them to switch ammunitions and weapon systems. I just didn't recall seeing anywhere that SuperNova was intended to increase lethality over VF-11, but to add Jump Booster capability, Pinpoint Barrier, and perhaps Active Stealth. As we see in Plus, and 7, the VF-11C was plenty effective when given an ace pilot.

Granted, that's true... I've never run across anything that suggested the Project Super Nova goals included increasing the lethality of the fighter's weapons, though they did test at least one new weapons package during the contest. All the same, there's no guarantee that the manufacturer opted for the same caliber as the VF-11's gunpod for convenience's sake either. It could be that they decided to follow on from the 40mm ammo used by the VF-17s already in service too.

Even without the cool bayonet, both of those more advanced valks look like they have inferior gun pods in comparison, though offset with useful built-in weaponry (both ironically seemingly also lose most of the utility of their head laser since battroid can't point it forward in the point-defense role used on VF-0, VF-1, and seemingly capable in VF-11).

Honestly, I don't think we can really go so far as to call the GU-15 or GV-17L inferior to previous models of gun pod.

In terms of effectiveness, we have no real frame of reference for comparison except for the action we see in Macross 7, and that doesn't really help much since the story is much more interested in flattering Basara's colossal vanity and showcasing the godawful Sound Force custom Valkyries. On one or two occasions, we get to see what the VF-11 can do with a capable pilot at the stick, and it's quite impressive, but it's not any more impressive than what those same pilots do with their VF-17s, or what we later see done with the VF-19F/S and VF-22S when those are handed over into the care of ace pilots. As we would expect, the damage they inflict varies with the needs of the plot... sometimes glancing off the armor of the enemy planes like a gentle rain, and sometimes shredding them into metallic confetti.

Since you brought it up... the VF-11's gun pod is much more important to its combat effectiveness than the gun pods of the VF-19 and VF-22, because unlike those AVFs it lacks any other forward-facing guns. The VF-19 and VF-22 will both, theoretically, be able to make their gun pod ammo last much longer by using their forward-facing integrated guns in a dogfight (something Alto and the other VF-25 pilots seem to mysteriously forget they have on their VF-25s). At the very least, the VF-19S's secondary head lasers look like they're on rotating mounts (similar in appearance to those on the VF-25) and may be able to turn in battroid mode. About the only case that could be made for the superiority of the 30mm gun pod on the VF-11 would've been the anti-armor bayonet, and that got removed as a cost-saving budget cut on the C variant.

I'd imagine it would be a belt that would have to be flat against the half cylinder cover, though instead of coiled around, though, which would need it to be rear loading Unless the magazine isn't just a shell like it is on the toy and is more of a replacement cylinder/drum (at least on some portion of it's length). No cutaways showing the VF-11B gunpod and/or magazine are there? Really wished the next Master File would be VF-11.

Actually, the feed system in the GU-11 was helical, not a drum or a belt. It's a very space-efficient system, and it could potentially be done as a half-helix too for the removable magazines of the later generations of gun pods. Insofar as the magazine itself, the animation and line art indicates it is more or less exactly like it is on the toy, with the magazine as that removable long, slim piece of semi-circular metal that fits right over the barrel assembly. Basically, it is "just that shell", which is why I suggested a maximum of 300 rounds as a little more than half the capacity of the internal helical feed on its nearest neighbor in caliber (the 35mm GPU-9 on the VF-0). The magazines on the VF-17's MC-17A and the VF-19's GU-15 appear to use a similar, if not identical, magazine orientation.

Incidentally, the VF-17's line art does show the removable magazine separate from the gun pod itself. You can see it for yourself here, image courtesy of Mr. March's Macross Mecha Manual. It's in the bottom left corner of the image.

[hobbes221]

For me the big thing that I need to know is what (if any) types of advancements in propellant have been made. If you look at a real world round, a large part of the total volume is taken up by the propellant/power. If a propellant with higher energy potential is in use then you can make the case smaller and still get the power levels you need to make the round do what you want it to, and at the same time increase the total round count.

I will use these pics as an example, (we only care about the two rounds on the right in the first pic, second pic show a 7.62x51mm and 5.56x45mm along with a AA battery for scale.).

The round on the far right is the 5.56x45mm NATO (.233) think M-16, M-4, AR-15, the one next to it is a wildcat round (some guy came up with it, no big company backing) 7.62x40mm, it takes the case of the 5.56 and necks up the opening to take a 7.62mm bullet.

So if you take a larger bullet and stick it in smaller case using the same power you lose muzzle velocity which equals less power and range (not so much an issue in space I guess) but if you replace the power with some uber-cool overtech propellant you get 7.62x51mm power crammed into a 5.56x45mm sized round and more rounds to boot.

but Guld's ammo was cartridge-less

Oh and Seto, not trying to be an ass but cartridge refers to a complete round, cartridge-less is like saying it has no ammo, case-less I think would be a better term.

And I would love to see a metric butt-load of line-art and cut-away views of all the gunpods to see just how some of those feed ammo!

Edited February 10, 2010 by hobbes221

[Seto Kaiba]

For me the big thing that I need to know is what (if any) types of advancements in propellant have been made. If you look at a real world round, a large part of the total volume is taken up by the propellant/power.

Well, we can't really say anything as to the propellant used, since nobody ever really seems to talk about it, but the animation seems to show that, even as late as 2040 the cartridge cases look essentially identical to those of modern rotary cannon ammunition of similar caliber.

Oh and Seto, not trying to be an ass but cartridge refers to a complete round, cartridge-less is like saying it has no ammo, case-less I think would be a better term.

's okay... it's not my error anyway. If you're looking for someone to blame for that particularly asinine goof you can start with the Japanese writers, Macross Compendium, and so on... they all list the gunpod as "cartridge-less". It's likely just a screwball terminology goof from someone who wasn't terribly familiar with firearms and they likely meant caseless ammunition, though they could have meant that it used some other kind of propulsive force instead of standard chemical propellants, thus omitting the cartridge case, propellant, and primer all in one go. In the interest of accuracy, I opted not to inject my own interpretation into the description, and instead used the description verbatim.

And I would love to see a metric butt-load of line-art and cut-away views of all the gunpods to see just how some of those feed ammo!

About all we've gotten on that note so far have been two different cutaways of the GU-11... the official one in various sources, and a new, non-canon one in the VF-1 Valkyrie Master File. It's likely another non-canon gunpod cutaway will appear in the forthcoming VF-19 Excalibur Master File.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Graham]

The VF-19 and VF-22 will both, theoretically, be able to make their gun pod ammo last much longer by using their forward-facing integrated guns in a dogfight (something Alto and the other VF-25 pilots seem to mysteriously forget they have on their VF-25s).

There's at least one, possibly two instance of the VF-25 wing root guns being fired in fighter mode in the anime that I can recall. Will try to post screen captures later.

Graham

[Seto Kaiba]

There's at least one, possibly two instance of the VF-25 wing root guns being fired in fighter mode in the anime that I can recall. Will try to post screen captures later.

Not really necessary, the point I was getting at there is that rather than use the wing root guns as a matter of course, the VF-25 pilots almost invariably attack with the ventrally-mounted gun pod. It would make some small measure of sense in the early parts of the series, but after everything's upgraded to MDE spec, it would make sense to use the wing root guns for fighter mode attacks. None of the other fighters equipped with similar forward-facing guns hesitate to use them. IMO, the VF-11's lack of a forward facing gun is a marked shortcoming of the design, and burning through your heaviest gun's ammo when there are readily available alternatives just doesn't make sense.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Graham]

For me the big thing that I need to know is what (if any) types of advancements in propellant have been made. If you look at a real world round, a large part of the total volume is taken up by the propellant/power. If a propellant with higher energy potential is in use then you can make the case smaller and still get the power levels you need to make the round do what you want it to, and at the same time increase the total round count.

When you are talking about cannon shells, as opposed to small arms bullets, increasing propellant and velocity is only half the story. Unlike small arms (pistol/rifle) bullets, which are generally just lead with a copper jacket, cannon shells have far more space available internally to make a multitude of different shell types, such as Armor Piercing Incendiary, High explosive incendiary, etc.

We should not only be asking what are the improvements in propellants in the Macross Universe, but to me what is just as if not more interesting, is improvements in the actual cannon shells.

Of course higher velocity is generally good, and increasing velocity provides the benefits of higher energy on target, longer range, flatter tragectory, shorter flight time to target etc, etc. But too much of anything can be a bad thing, and increasing the amount of propellant and velocity, you can get increased wear on the weapon and barrel(s) = shorter lifespan, not to mention increased recoil.

A downsize in calibre does not necessarily mean less lethality (although that greatly depends on what your target is!). I do find it extremely interesting that for the VF-25, the calibre of the gunpod is the largest ever seen in Macross. Was the VF-25's gunpod specifically designed with possible future encounters with the Vajra in mind I wonder?

Graham

[Seto Kaiba]

We should not only be asking what are the improvements in propellants in the Macross Universe, but to me what is just as if not more interesting, is improvements in the actual cannon shells.

Especially since they have the benefit of overtechnology-derived super-strong materials and the like... which probably have more widespread benefits than just the projectile itself. Use of "space metal" or "hypercarbon" in the construction could have all kinds of benefits, like reducing the weapon's overall weight, increasing overall durability, and making the barrels less prone to wear and overheating.

A downsize in calibre does not necessarily mean less lethality (although that greatly depends on what your target is!).

Granted, but you have to remember that if you get a more massive projectile moving at that same velocity it'll impart more energy to the target. There are a number of factors that can be manipulated to achieve the desired result, it's just a matter of what's the most efficient for what you're trying to accomplish.

I do find it extremely interesting that for the VF-25, the calibre of the gunpod is the largest ever seen in Macross. Was the VF-25's gunpod specifically designed with possible future encounters with the Vajra in mind I wonder?

Was it? I could've sworn there was one that was bigger. That aside, it would make a fair bit of sense for the VF-25's 58mm GU-17A to have been spec'd with the Vajra in mind, since the Frontier's mission was, at least according to Kawamori, always going to be one where they encountered the Vajra while searching for fold quartz.

EDIT: Yeah, there is... but not by much. The VA-3C's GA-22 gun pod is 60mm, the VF-25's GU-17A is 58mm.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[hobbes221]

Good points both you. My idea behind the propellant was just that maybe they get away with higher round counts if the overall size was smaller due to lower amounts of propellant needed, not saying that it has to be big difference a little off each round adds up. And yes I can only imagine what upgrades the shells themselves have due to overtech, a VF-11's 30mm in my mind totally outclasses the 30x113Bmm Aden (UK Harriers and Apache) and 30x173mm GAU-8/A (A-10) rounds. Just think if you were able to pack the power 30x173mm round into the size of the 30x113Bmm, that alone would be good advancement in my book. I think the A-10 (1350-1174) and the AH-64 (1200) IIRC both carry around the same number rounds. Even though both are 30mm, the volume each magazine takes up in the airframes are very different.

A downsize in calibre does not necessarily mean less lethality

Very true, there is a great deal that goes into designing an effective round.

It's likely just a screwball terminology goof from someone who wasn't terribly familiar with firearms and they likely meant caseless ammunition, though they could have meant that it used some other kind of propulsive force instead of standard chemical propellants, thus omitting the cartridge case, propellant, and primer all in one go. In the interest of accuracy, I opted not to inject my own interpretation into the description, and instead used the description verbatim.

interesting take one that, will need to give that some more thought.

Especially since they have the benefit of overtechnology-derived super-strong materials and the like... which probably have more widespread benefits than just the projectile itself

I have had the same idea, in my little VF that I have designing off and on over the years (pics if I can ever get to a point where I'm happy with it) I have been toying with the idea of using an energy converting armor system dedicated to the barrel, chamber and breech to allow for very operating temps and pressures. I have a few different designs/ideas for my cannon that I have playing with based on this general idea.

[Seto Kaiba]

Good points both you. My idea behind the propellant was just that maybe they get away with higher round counts if the overall size was smaller due to lower amounts of propellant needed, not saying that it has to be big difference a little off each round adds up.

It's certainly an interesting thought... but on the few occasions where the ammunition itself is clearly visible, it doesn't look much different from modern 30mm AP rounds. It's possible they found a more efficient propellant formulation for greater muzzle velocities, or one with a longer shelf life, but the cartridge design itself doesn't seem to have changed much.

I have had the same idea, in my little VF that I have designing off and on over the years (pics if I can ever get to a point where I'm happy with it) I have been toying with the idea of using an energy converting armor system dedicated to the barrel, chamber and breech to allow for very operating temps and pressures. I have a few different designs/ideas for my cannon that I have playing with based on this general idea.

Well... not quite the same idea. I wasn't really factoring in anything like energy converting armor, since I'm somewhat more fond of the Macross II-era stuff where that particular technology doesn't exist and both "space metal" and "hypercarbon" are just astonishingly strong, light super materials similar to Mobile Suit Gundam's Luna Titanium (aka Gundarium). I'd imagine adding externally powered energy converting armor or an internal system to the gun pod would just make things more complicated and maintenance intensive...

Of course, that's not to say the idea is without merit. I can definitely see potential applications for large, semi-fixed guns like a starship-scale railgun or the main cannons of a Monster destroid or the VB-6 Konig Monster. It would probably be a huge asset for the Konig Monster, reducing barrel wear on its four railguns and allowing them to stand up better under the stresses of transformation... and if memory serves at least part of the weapon is also used in the propulsion system too.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

Just want to point out:

The VF-1's gun pod was designed to overcome the energy conversion armour of the battlepods and other Zentraadi weapons they knew about from the crashed ASS-1. I'm pretty certain that this feature is not part of the VF-0's and Sv-51's gun pod; but it is definitely applicable to later gun pods. How they overcome energy conversion armour wasn't clarified in the source I learned that from (one of the Great Mechanics.Dx magazines, if you're wondering).

[Uxi]

Granted, that's true... I've never run across anything that suggested the Project Super Nova goals included increasing the lethality of the fighter's weapons, though they did test at least one new weapons package during the contest. All the same, there's no guarantee that the manufacturer opted for the same caliber as the VF-11's gunpod for convenience's sake either. It could be that they decided to follow on from the 40mm ammo used by the VF-17s already in service too.

Definitely possible. Bean counters usually want to standardize as much as possible. Since there were only 3 VF-17 on the Macross 7 Fleet, just seems more logical they would want to stay with the most common source. They could indeed have went to the 40mm or changed to something completely different like 33mm).

Honestly, I don't think we can really go so far as to call the GU-15 or GV-17L inferior to previous models of gun pod.

Inferior would definitely be the wrong term. "Wimpier in appearance" more accurate to my train of thought, though they could well be more effective. You make a great point bringing up the fighter mode disadvantage of VF-11. Even the VF1 had it's head laser pointing forward in fighter. VF-11 has no weapons useful in fighter other than it's gunpod. Perhaps another argument to give it greater capacity (and maybe the primary reason for it's caliber choice, to fit as much as ammunition as possible?). Coupled with improvements in lethality of the round and/or propellant (and/or a move to 'gauss'/railgun weaponry).

Incidentally, the VF-17's line art does show the removable magazine separate from the gun pod itself. You can see it for yourself here, image courtesy of Mr. March's Macross Mecha Manual. It's in the bottom left corner of the image.

Great reference. I've completely neglected to look at my Design Works, was mostly relying on the Compendium (which also mentions the removable magazine in the other leg). I'm a bit surprised that VF-25 appears to use a conventional projectile gunpod. Seemed like the direction of M7 and MD7 was showing a progression to energy weapons, particularly with Gamlin's gunpods. He went energy and never went back IIRC.

What did the Zentraedi use for cannons? I know they used missiles, but can't recall if their cannons used projectiles or a mixture with energy weapons. My recollection of Frontier ep with the Zent graveyard with the was energy based. Regults appeared to be use energy weapons except for the missile pod attachment. Q-rau appears energy to me (similar to the arm guns on the YF-21 - even though Gamlin's VF-22 apparently deviates again with the effect and when he flies directly in the foreground it has a distinct 'gunpod' sound to it for some reason ).

[azrael]

Great reference. I've completely neglected to look at my Design Works, was mostly relying on the Compendium (which also mentions the removable magazine in the other leg). I'm a bit surprised that VF-25 appears to use a conventional projectile gunpod. Seemed like the direction of M7 and MD7 was showing a progression to energy weapons, particularly with Gamlin's gunpods. He went energy and never went back IIRC.

Perhaps going conventional was to save money. But keep in mind The VF-27's beam gun pod. New technology always comes with a cost. And even the VF-25's head lasers were losing their effectiveness on the Vajra after a while.

What did the Zentraedi use for cannons? I know they used missiles, but can't recall if their cannons used projectiles or a mixture with energy weapons. My recollection of Frontier ep with the Zent graveyard with the was energy based. ...

They used mostly directed-energy weapons.

[miles316]

Their is four technologies Hyper carbon, Space metal, Energy conversion armor, Gravity controle that would allow Guns to improve in their killing ability while not becoming impractically massive.

Hyper carbon and Space metal would allow higher Power propellants to be used while keeping the barrels and breach Small similar the the steel/Titanium components used in modern guns.

Second two technology would be Energy conversion armor and Gravity control that could be integrated in to the Projectiles them selves inproving their lethality or redusing their wheight penality.

Energy conversion technology would work in a smiler to Frangible rounds that are in development by converting heat generated by the impact with the target to keep the projectile intact longer negating the Energy conversion armor protection for aircraft.

Gravity Control could reduce the weight of the round while it is in the Magazine though this might not be practical requiring a power cell dedicated to the rounds or a power cable from the aircraft electrical system.

Combining energy conversion armor to increase the mass of the round during the milliseconds the bullets and target interact though I don't know if this would be of any practical use.

After watching Macross it appears that the energy conversion armor on Valkyries offer almost no protection against other fighters.

Bibliography

Energy Conversion armor mentioned in most Macross series.

Gravity control mentioned in the first episode of Macross when they first try to launch (they rip them selves out of the ship).

Hyper Carbon mentioned in DYRL.

Space metal source MAHQ.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hyper carbon and Space metal would allow higher Power propellants to be used while keeping the barrels and breach Small similar the the steel/Titanium components used in modern guns.

Already been mentioned...

Second two technology would be Energy conversion armor and Gravity control that could be integrated in to the Projectiles them selves themselves inproving improving their lethality or redusing reducing their wheight penality weight penalty.

Okay... spellcheck is your friend. Use it. As far as integrating energy converting armor and gravity control systems into the rounds themselves... that's just wasteful. Increasing the mass after the projectile has already left the barrel is just a waste that will decrease the effective range in atmosphere, causing accuracy to suffer accordingly. Integrating an energy converting armor system into each slug is just plain wasteful, since each slug would need a dedicated internal power unit to keep the ECE system running long enough for the round to reach the target. When the same general results can easily be achieved by less costly and complex means by just using a denser material in the project, what's the bloody point?

Energy conversion technology would work in a smiler similar way to Frangible rounds that are in development by converting heat generated by the impact with the target to keep the projectile intact longer negating the Energy conversion armor protection for aircraft.

Um... what? Please don't use terms you don't understand. The whole point of frangible bullets is that they disintegrate on impact to minimize penetration.

Gravity Control could reduce the weight of the round while it is in the Magazine though this might not be practical requiring a power cell dedicated to the rounds or a power cable from the aircraft electrical system.

Rather pointless, actually... since after leaving the area of gravity control system's effect the slug would return to its normal mass, which in a moderate gravity environment like a planetary atmosphere would shorten the effective range and impair accuracy... making the whole system rather pointless.

After watching Macross it appears that the energy conversion armor on Valkyries offer almost no protection against other fighters.

Eh? Are you sure you're watching the same Macross the rest of us are? Just a cursory glance at the first dozen or so episodes of Macross 7 would seem to be an astonishingly strong argument to the contrary, with fighters on both sides standing up to direct missiles hits and gunpod fire without being destroyed on several occasions. Macross Zero is a somewhat different story, since the VF-0 and SV-51 are both powered by overtuned turbofan jet engines instead of the thermonuclear reaction engines used on VF-1 and every fighter than followed it. It should go without saying that as energy converting armor technology improved, so too did the technology used to penetrate that extra layer of defense. As Sketchley pointed out, even the GU-11 had penetrating energy converting armor as a factor in its design.

[VF-19]

Oh, just to compare: Compare the damage the F-14 takes from the SV-51's gun to the damage the VF-0 (pilot excluding, of course) takes. The armour does its job in keeping the plane together.

Just wondering, however, on average, how many "hits" does it take to kill a zentradi pod anyways. The GU-11 only has around 200 rounds or so, so I'm going to assume it's not much.

[Gubaba]

Just wondering, however, on average, how many "hits" does it take to kill a zentradi pod anyways. The GU-11 only has around 200 rounds or so, so I'm going to assume it's not much.

Generally, it appears like it just one will do the trick. Unless you're Hikaru in a VF-1D, then you need all 200 rounds just to knock the thing over.

[Uxi]

Here's a pic. Excuse the cell phone quality:

[Graham]

VF-17 uses 40mm/8 barrel design with one spare magazine stored in the leg (or replaced by the energy beam adapter). No info on ammo capacity. I am a bit surprised at the change in caliber as I would have expected it to use the same ammo as VF-11.

Where are you getting the 8 barrel info from? Always thought it was 7 barrel.

Graham

[Seto Kaiba]

Where are you getting the 8 barrel info from? Always thought it was 7 barrel.

Uxi apparently didn't bother to check the Compendium or any other source before posting, and just assumed that the VF-17D and VF-171 use the same model of gunpod. On the one occasion where the VF-171's gunpod was shown being fired, it did have eight barrels.

[Uxi]

I was exclusively checking the Compendium on this one and referenced it several times. Thinking this is a fat finger more than anything.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Uxi