HG and Robotech Debates

[Einherjar]

Well besides Claster (who distributed Starblazers), HG stayed pretty close to the source material and didn't totally dumb it down. You had World Events or Sandy Frank but we all saw the results of that handling of anime. Let's leap frog to the 90's. What if Robotech never aired in the 80's and company like US Renditions/LA Hero distributed Macross. You would get a decent translation but would have to pay $25 for two episode tapes and never be able to see it free on television.

That only counts for the Macross portion, the rest was screwed around with to make the whole thing fit. Would it be wrong for me to say that if Macross was released in the 90s, everything would have been less embarrassing compared to what happened to Robotech post original series? There would be no Sentinels, 3000, and maybe Shadow Chronicles, but those ended up being dead ends in the grand scheme of things anyway, so very little loss. But people value the novels and comics, so I don't really know.

[VFTF1]

You know what the REAL problem with this aspect of the issue is?

It's that because of stupid Harmony Gold, we will forever be stuck talking about Macross/Robotech in the 80s and 90s and "what if" --- and we'll never live to see the day when we talk about Macross on DVD, in the west, today or next week - because it's stuck in a rut.

Bandai needs to put its' money into some litigation to try to fight to get Macross Frontier to the west.

And that sucks.

Pete

[Beltane70]

Sounds to me that you're saying anime fans would've discovered Macross around the mid to late 90s if not for Robotech. Would Macross had gotten world wide exposure if not for Robotech? Maybe so but not on the same degree. Back in the 80s I heard about animes like Gundam or Orguss but I never saw those shows until the 90s or 2000s. By I time I watched the original versions the anime quality was dated and I watched them with no subtitles. My first exposure to Macross was through RT and I'm grateful it was in the 80s about 2 years after it aired on Japanese television. I don't know if RT made Macross a big hit but I do know it gave it more exposure than it would have had if left in Japan. I watched every episode on free UHF television an I didn't have to shell out dollars for VHS tapes until much later.

Not really. Even without Robotech, I would have discovered Macross only a year later. My first exposure to Japanese Macross was at a science-fiction convention in New York City in November of '86 where I saw a bootlegger showing DYRL at his stand. Plus, around the same time there were quite a few cheap Macross toys being sold in Toys R Us.

Back in the 80s I remember seeing the Mospeada bikes and Legioss toys long before Robotech ever even aired. I also remember even seeing Dougram, Orguss, and Dunbine toys in my local Toys R Us store before Robotech.

[Keith]

You know what the REAL problem with this aspect of the issue is?

It's that because of stupid Harmony Gold, we will forever be stuck talking about Macross/Robotech in the 80s and 90s and "what if" --- and we'll never live to see the day when we talk about Macross on DVD, in the west, today or next week - because it's stuck in a rut.

Bandai needs to put its' money into some litigation to try to fight to get Macross Frontier to the west.

And that sucks.

Pete

Seriously, and yet another reason I miss Bandai Visual U.S. Whle they weren't 100% going to do it, they'd have been the most likely candidate to do it.

[Keith]

Well besides Claster (who distributed Starblazers), HG stayed pretty close to the source material and didn't totally dumb it down. You had World Events or Sandy Frank but we all saw the results of that handling of anime. Let's leap frog to the 90's. What if Robotech never aired in the 80's and company like US Renditions/LA Hero distributed Macross. You would get a decent translation but would have to pay $25 for two episode tapes and never be able to see it free on television.

What do you think Robotech cost on VHS back then? And you still only got like 2 episodes per tape. Pretty sure the Macross portion was released on like 18 cassettes.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Keith

[terry the lone wolf]

What do you think Robotech cost on VHS back then? And you still only got like 2 episodes per tape. Pretty sure the Macross portion was released on like 18 cassettes.

Dude, read between the lines. If Macross went the way 90's anime did it would never been broadcasted on American television. The only way to see it would be through retail. Then it would be no guarantee that the series would even be finished. On TV, I saw all 36 episodes and the two add on series then later I collected the eps on video tape.

[Keith]

Dude, read between the lines. If Macross went the way 90's anime did it would never been broadcasted on American television. The only way to see it would be through retail. Then it would be no guarantee that the series would even be finished. On TV, I saw all 36 episodes and the two add on series then later I collected the eps on video tape.

Dude, I WAS THERE! I bought anime at retail prices on VHS, and not just any anime on VHS at retail prices, but SUBTITLED anime on VHS at retail prices, which easily ran $10+ over the dubbed versions, for just as few episodes. I have another realization for you, very little anime ever made it to tv period, and that which did was always dubbed, which wasn't what I wanted. TV broadcast is hardly the end all be all. I also have no doubt we'd all have seen Macross eventually, just as I've seen countless anime series without them being dubbed or on TV. Robotech was never the sole method of bringing Macross out over here, and really, had it never happened, we'd likely have not only Macross TV, but 7, Zero, and Frontier by now as well.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Keith

[Seto Kaiba]

Not this argument again...

My sentiments exactly... the defense that Robotech gave Macross more exposure is not, in and of itself, even close to being enough to justify the way the source material was abused, and it comes at the price of having to forever remind people "no, we're not talking about the nightmarishly bad rewritten version". Admittedly that last part is less and less problematic as time goes on, since the general attitude towards Robotech could best be summed up as "anyone who tries to defend Robotech is either an idiot or an extremely unsubtle troll".

That only counts for the Macross portion, the rest was screwed around with to make the whole thing fit. Would it be wrong for me to say that if Macross was released in the 90s, everything would have been less embarrassing compared to what happened to Robotech post original series? There would be no Sentinels, 3000, and maybe Shadow Chronicles, but those ended up being dead ends in the grand scheme of things anyway, so very little loss. But people value the novels and comics, so I don't really know.

No, I don't think it would. It seems a fairly safe bet that Macross would still have caught on in the US thanks to the licensing of Macross II: Lovers Again and Macross Plus in the 90s, though it would've taken longer for people to get into the series as a whole. It'd definitely be less embarrassing if the Macross name wasn't dragging around Robotech's lousy reputation and collection of failed sequel attempts...

[Aladdin Sane]

The thing with the whole "we needed x amount of episodes for weekday syndication" justification for Robotech is that, well, if that's all you were after you could've just done an anthology series. Finish the dub of Macross, do dubs of Southern Cross and either Mospeada or Orguss or whatever with a similar quality and accuracy (because really, within the proper context, the "Macross Saga" is a reasonably okay dub of Macross outside of the Robotech elements) and just keep them as their own, seperate stories under the "Robotech" umbrella. "Robotech Presents: Space Fortress Macross/Space Cavalry Southern Cross" and whatever else.

If they'd gone that route you could genuinely buy into the "helping to bring anime to the west" rhetoric, Harmony Gold and Carl Macek would be viewed a lot more favourably without all the negative baggage Robotech ultimately brought about. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but the anthology idea just seems like the most logical to me.

[Seto Kaiba]

The thing with the whole "we needed x amount of episodes for weekday syndication" justification for Robotech is that, well, if that's all you were after you could've just done an anthology series [...] and just keep them as their own, seperate stories under the "Robotech" umbrella.

Indeed... had Carl Macek managed to get Robotech out there as a sort of "anime masterpiece theater" showing separate, accurately dubbed versions of Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada under the banner of Robotech rather than the quickly slapped-together, badly rewritten mess we're familiar with today, his reputation (and Robotech's too) would probably be a lot less dire.

If you're willing to take Macek at his word, he does claim that his original intent for the syndicated Robotech TV series was to produce the same kind of anthology-style series you're talking about in one of the Robotech Art books. Just as you would expect, the first thing Macek did after explaining that part of Robotech's history was to insist that the failure of the anthology show concept wasn't his fault was to immediately shift the blame elsewhere. The party he blamed was the network executives, who he alleges wanted a single overarching story rather than a loosely linked anthology series. Of course, since this is an anecdote from Macek himself it has to be taken with a modest little mountain of salt since the man made a habit of telling extravagant lies both to exonerate himself of the guilt of all his various failures and bad decisions, and to exaggerate the extent of his involvement and input into the "creation" of the series. (It's worth noting that this early account is in reasonably obvious contradiction with his later assertions that the overarching story was a grand, preconceived idea he had going into the project)

[Dynaman]

The party he blamed was the network executives, who he alleges wanted a single overarching story rather than a loosely linked anthology series. Of course, since this is an anecdote from Macek himself it has to be taken with a modest little mountain of salt since the man made a habit of telling extravagant lies both to exonerate himself of the guilt of all his various failures and bad decisions, and to exaggerate the extent of his involvement and input into the "creation" of the series. (It's worth noting that this early account is in reasonably obvious contradiction with his later assertions that the overarching story was a grand, preconceived idea he had going into the project)

I'll take his earlier word as probably being more accurate, for two reasons - the first attempt he made to get Macross over here was as Macross and not Robotech (OK - so it still had Rick Yamashita...)

Second, I can easily believe the network required an "overarching" story. When MST3K was turned into a movie, the studio demanded that the skit portions tell a story - and not just be a random collection of funny bits. In the case of MST3K the studio had a known property and they were STILL telling the MST3K staff to make an "overarching story" within the skits, that a studio or network would demand an overarching story out of 3 unrelated anime shows does not surprise me one bit.

(even worse for MST3K - the studio, after demanding the skits tell a coherent story decided the movie was too long and cut out one of the middle skits)

Edited May 5, 2010 by Dynaman

[Seto Kaiba]

I'll take his earlier word as probably being more accurate, for two reasons - the first attempt he made to get Macross over here was as Macross and not Robotech (OK - so it still had Rick Yamashita...)

Second, I can easily believe the network required an "overarching" story.

Eh... personally, I'm inclined to say Macek's earlier account is the more plausible of the two on the grounds that it came to light before his trend of lying and stretching the truth began in earnest. Once he started trying to spin himself as the anime industry's answer to Gene Roddenberry and touting Robotech as the result of a grand creative vision he had from the very beginning, he buried the truth in the name of self-promotion and retroactive arse-covering. If what he said was true, and executive meddling was what really produced the overarching Robotech story, then that should be the real dirty little secret of Robotech's history... that the "generational story" Robotech fans are so quick to boast about is a sham, and everything (even the show's name) is the result of commercial necessity rather than creative intent.

[terry the lone wolf]

Dude, I WAS THERE! I bought anime at retail prices on VHS, and not just any anime on VHS at retail prices, but SUBTITLED anime on VHS at retail prices, which easily ran $10+ over the dubbed versions, for just as few episodes. I have another realization for you, very little anime ever made it to tv period, and that which did was always dubbed, which wasn't what I wanted. TV broadcast is hardly the end all be all. I also have no doubt we'd all have seen Macross eventually, just as I've seen countless anime series without them being dubbed or on TV. Robotech was never the sole method of bringing Macross out over here, and really, had it never happened, we'd likely have not only Macross TV, but 7, Zero, and Frontier by now as well.

I was THERE TOO! I remember those over price VHS tapes ($25-30). For all of his faults Carl Macek did help usher in free anime on FREE television. At least he had the vision to release this mateial to a medium where most people would see it and not just hardcore fans. Today's anime market is a joke. Yes you get whole collections but nobody's buying and companies are folding. In Japan most of this stuff is shown on TV first why not here? Now, when I collected VHS I did want to see something different so sub-titled or non-edited would've been fine but I hey I can say I finished the entire series without having to pay for it. You're right, very little anime was around and there was no real anime market. That's why guys like Carl Macek help usher it in. Erol's video store carried Robotech, Ultraman, Thunderbirds 2086, Dracula: Sovereign of the Damned, & Warriors of the Wind (Nausicaa of the Wind) so I was able to get my anime fix.

Edited May 5, 2010 by terry the lone wolf

[Gubaba]

I was THERE TOO! I remember those over price VHS tapes ($25-30). For all of his faults Carl Macek did help usher in free anime on FREE television. Now, when I collected VHS I did want to see something different so sub-titled or non-edited would've been fine but I hey I can say I finished the entire series without having to pay for it. You're right, very little anime was around and there was no real anime market. That's why guys like Carl Macek help usher it in. Erol's video store carried Robotech, Ultraman, Thunderbirds 2086, Dracula: Sovereign of the Damned, & Warriors of the Wind (Nausicaa of the Wind) so I was able to get my anime fix.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all of those come out BEFORE Robotech...? After Robotech finished, there was still a real dearth of anime on TV. You had Macron-1, which featured most of the Robotech voice cast, and which sucked. And I've heard that Captain harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years aired somewhere...no idea where, though.

There was already a groundswell of interest in anime...Robotech may have pushed it along (except that it seems like a lot of the people who REALLY, REALLY liked Robotech STILL only REALLY, REALLY like Robotech). But I remember seeing anime books in comic shops before Robotech aired, and I remember reading about anime and giant robots in the LA Times magazine (which included a focus on Macross) in late '84.

Remember, robot toys were already big...I never went to Toys R Us, but Karl's Toys in the Pasadena Mall continually had cheap Macross, Orguss, and Dorvack model kits even before Robotech started. So yeah...I think it would've happened anyway, Robotech or no.

[terry the lone wolf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all of those come out BEFORE Robotech...? After Robotech finished, there was still a real dearth of anime on TV. You had Macron-1, which featured most of the Robotech voice cast, and which sucked. And I've heard that Captain harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years aired somewhere...no idea where, though.

There was already a groundswell of interest in anime...Robotech may have pushed it along (except that it seems like a lot of the people who REALLY, REALLY liked Robotech STILL only REALLY, REALLY like Robotech). But I remember seeing anime books in comic shops before Robotech aired, and I remember reading about anime and giant robots in the LA Times magazine (which included a focus on Macross) in late '84.

Remember, robot toys were already big...I never went to Toys R Us, but Karl's Toys in the Pasadena Mall continually had cheap Macross, Orguss, and Dorvack model kits even before Robotech started. So yeah...I think it would've happened anyway, Robotech or no.

First of all I never said RT was before any of those shows; I just used them as an example of Anime being available while therewas no official Anime market.

Now for the toys, I've seen them too and bought them. I even bought bootlegged Macross toys and even owned Jetfire before Robotech aired. RT helped because it explained where these toys came from. Imported or bootlegged toys were always available but I never knew there were animated series too. From my own experience, it wasn't till after Robotech that I saw a huge boom in anime inspired toys (especially giant robots) and other materials. I know Shogun Warriors, Transformers, and even Voltron was around but that time (1985-87) it felt like such an explosion that I have to give credit to Robotech. Robotech wasn't the 1st but it was the one that popularized the genre.

[Keith]

I was THERE TOO! I remember those over price VHS tapes ($25-30). For all of his faults Carl Macek did help usher in free anime on FREE television. At least he had the vision to release this mateial to a medium where most people would see it and not just hardcore fans. Today's anime market is a joke. Yes you get whole collections but nobody's buying and companies are folding. In Japan most of this stuff is shown on TV first why not here? Now, when I collected VHS I did want to see something different so sub-titled or non-edited would've been fine but I hey I can say I finished the entire series without having to pay for it. You're right, very little anime was around and there was no real anime market. That's why guys like Carl Macek help usher it in. Erol's video store carried Robotech, Ultraman, Thunderbirds 2086, Dracula: Sovereign of the Damned, & Warriors of the Wind (Nausicaa of the Wind) so I was able to get my anime fix.

Umm. let's tak a tally of "Free Anime On Free Television" that had nothing to do with Macek.

-Astroboy

-Gigantor

-G Force

-Speed Racer

-Starblazers

-Voltron

-Force 5

-Mazinger Z

-(I absolutely refuse to call it Tranzor Z)

-Might Orbots

And I'm sure several others I'm forgetting. And let's be really honest here, there is one, and only one real reason any show from Japan with transoforming robots woiuld wind up on TV, syndicated or otherwise, the popularity of T-R-A-N-S-F-O-R-M-E-R-S. Twas not Macek wh invented the beast, he was just one of many who cheaply jumped on the bandwagon.

Also, really, you need to get off of this "free on tv" thing, it's stupid, and obnoxious as all f*ck.

Back to the topic though, Anime on TV didn't start to gain any kind of full steam until Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, & Pokemon popped up almost 10 years later. Much too late to count "Robotech" as a determining factor there. Despite the delusional grandure of Robotech fans, the shows influence was a mere drop in the bucket.

[Gubaba]

First of all I never said RT was before any of those shows; I just used them as an example of Anime being available while therewas no official Anime market.

Ah, sorry. I thought you were saying they were there BECAUSE of Robotech...but, since they were there before, doesn't that mean there was a market for anime before RT...?

Now for the toys, I've seen them too and bought them. I even bought bootlegged Macross toys and even owned Jetfire before Robotech aired. RT helped because it explained where these toys came from. Imported or bootlegged toys were always available but I never knew there were animated series too. From my own experience, it wasn't till after Robotech that I saw a huge boom in anime inspired toys (especially giant robots) and other materials. I know Shogun Warriors, Transformers, and even Voltron was around but that time (1985-87) it felt like such an explosion that I have to give credit to Robotech. Robotech wasn't the 1st but it was the one that popularized the genre.

Okay, I think I've found the disconnect. All of this stuff was around before Robotech (Shogun Warriors, for example, came out in the '70s, IIRC...at least, I remember playing with them in my old house, which my family moved out of in 1980). Anime was on TV (not always in the most stellar shape) before Robotech. As you mentioned, video stores carried anime movies (or TV series chopped up to SEEM like movies) before Robotech. Most of it was done kiddie-style, but not all.

It was all there...I think that perhaps you just didn't notice it as much before. Robotech made you curious to find out more. But the information was out there, even if you had to dig deep to find it.

But if Robotech popularized the genre OVERALL, how do you explain the dearth of new anime following it? As I said, there was Macron-1. There was the barely-seen Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years. One of the Spanish-language TV stations in my area showed Iron Man 28 and Baxingar (which I loved, although I couldn't understand much of what they were saying).

Comics stores and specialty shops carried more anime-related stuff, but they'd always had SOME (at least in L.A.). The C/FO got some more members. Comic conventions started devoting a little more space to anime.

But I think anything would've done that. The groundswell had started. Robotech came along at the right time and was decent enough that a lot of people who saw it, liked it. But ultimately, it was just another crack in the floodgates, not much different than Star Blazers (and, strangely enough, Transformers) before it, and Akira after it. What's different about it - for you - is that it got you curious about where this stuff came from, and made you hungry for more. That's fine. The same is true for a lot of us...but as far as general importance goes, I think you're overstating its influence.

[Bri]

Back to the topic though, Anime on TV didn't start to gain any kind of full steam until Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, & Pokemon popped up almost 10 years later. Much too late to count "Robotech" as a determining factor there. Despite the delusional grandure of Robotech fans, the shows influence was a mere drop in the bucket.

Speaking of Dragonball. Just for the fun of it, from Wiki:

"Harmony Gold USA licensed the series for an English language release in North America in the late 1980s. In their voice dub of the series, Harmony renamed almost all of the characters, with some names appearing very odd, such as Goku being renamed "Zero" and the character Korin's name changed to "Whiskers the Wonder Cat." This dub version was eventually cancelled."

I guess Harmony Gold *really* can't see a winning concept even when it's in front of their eyes. If Funimation hadn't believed in DB and it's sequel DBZ another gateway anime might never have made it unto television.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Bri

[terry the lone wolf]

Umm. let's tak a tally of "Free Anime On Free Television" that had nothing to do with Macek.

-Astroboy

-Gigantor

-G Force

-Speed Racer

-Starblazers

-Voltron

-Force 5

-Mazinger Z

-(I absolutely refuse to call it Tranzor Z)

-Might Orbots

And I'm sure several others I'm forgetting. And let's be really honest here, there is one, and only one real reason any show from Japan with transoforming robots woiuld wind up on TV, syndicated or otherwise, the popularity of T-R-A-N-S-F-O-R-M-E-R-S. Twas not Macek wh invented the beast, he was just one of many who cheaply jumped on the bandwagon.

Also, really, you need to get off of this "free on tv" thing, it's stupid, and obnoxious as all f*ck.

Back to the topic though, Anime on TV didn't start to gain any kind of full steam until Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, & Pokemon popped up almost 10 years later. Much too late to count "Robotech" as a determining factor there. Despite the delusional grandure of Robotech fans, the shows influence was a mere drop in the bucket.

Robotech, Voltron, Saber Rider, & TRANZOR Z had nothing to do with it? Late 80's early 90's Anime was virtually dead on free tv. If you want to get technical Dragon Warrior was the 1st modern day anime back on free television. When I say modern Anime I mean from the 90's till now.

I never said Carl was the first; I said guys LIKE Carl Macek.

You mentioned Force 5; yes those shows started in limited markets on FREE television but didn't they end up on Showtime? I mean my only recollection of Force 5 was trailers on Captain Harlock tapes..

[Keith]

Robotech, Voltron, Saber Rider, & TRANZOR Z had nothing to do with it? Late 80's early 90's Anime was virtually dead on free tv. If you want to get technical Dragon Warrior was the 1st modern day anime back on free television. When I say modern Anime I mean from the 90's till now.

I never said Carl was the first; I said guys LIKE Carl Macek.

You mentioned Force 5; yes those shows started in limited markets on FREE television but didn't they end up on Showtime? I mean my only recollection of Force 5 was trailers on Captain Harlock tapes..

Do you even know what you're arguing anymore?

[VFTF1]

The past is over! The present just passed and the future is right now!

In the end it doesn't matter what impact Robotech had on popularizing anime in the west - bigger or smaller - either way it doesn't justify that HG and Robotech's only significant contribution to anime now and in the future will be as a HINDERANCE.

Pete

[UN_MARINE]

The shows would've gained popularity by themselves regardless of TV airtime. Take NGE for example; when i 1st heard of that show, nobody had the license to air it on TV. I had to see it through VHS but i managed to complete the show anyway. Next thing i knew, it was a huge hit.

So the idea that Macross (or anime as we know it) wouldn't be popular if they weren't aired on TV is kinda... wrong.

[Ginrai]

I'll take his earlier word as probably being more accurate, for two reasons - the first attempt he made to get Macross over here was as Macross and not Robotech (OK - so it still had Rick Yamashita...)

Rick Yamata.

[terry the lone wolf]

Do you even know what you're arguing anymore?

I do. Do you?

[terry the lone wolf]

Ah, sorry. I thought you were saying they were there BECAUSE of Robotech...but, since they were there before, doesn't that mean there was a market for anime before RT...?

Okay, I think I've found the disconnect. All of this stuff was around before Robotech (Shogun Warriors, for example, came out in the '70s, IIRC...at least, I remember playing with them in my old house, which my family moved out of in 1980). Anime was on TV (not always in the most stellar shape) before Robotech. As you mentioned, video stores carried anime movies (or TV series chopped up to SEEM like movies) before Robotech. Most of it was done kiddie-style, but not all.

It was all there...I think that perhaps you just didn't notice it as much before. Robotech made you curious to find out more. But the information was out there, even if you had to dig deep to find it.

But if Robotech popularized the genre OVERALL, how do you explain the dearth of new anime following it? As I said, there was Macron-1. There was the barely-seen Captain Harlock and the Queen of a Thousand Years. One of the Spanish-language TV stations in my area showed Iron Man 28 and Baxingar (which I loved, although I couldn't understand much of what they were saying).

Comics stores and specialty shops carried more anime-related stuff, but they'd always had SOME (at least in L.A.). The C/FO got some more members. Comic conventions started devoting a little more space to anime.

But I think anything would've done that. The groundswell had started. Robotech came along at the right time and was decent enough that a lot of people who saw it, liked it. But ultimately, it was just another crack in the floodgates, not much different than Star Blazers (and, strangely enough, Transformers) before it, and Akira after it. What's different about it - for you - is that it got you curious about where this stuff came from, and made you hungry for more. That's fine. The same is true for a lot of us...but as far as general importance goes, I think you're overstating its influence.

Y'know that's probably the truth. Of all the anime I did see RT was the one that really got me deep into it. So sought out as much Robotech that I could find. Though in Maryland (where I'm from) Anime mechandise might have been a little tougher to get than in L.A. A lot of imported toys were relegated to pawn shops but you could find models at Geppi's Comic World and Toys-R-Us.

[terry the lone wolf]

The shows would've gained popularity by themselves regardless of TV airtime. Take NGE for example; when i 1st heard of that show, nobody had the license to air it on TV. I had to see it through VHS but i managed to complete the show anyway. Next thing i knew, it was a huge hit.

So the idea that Macross (or anime as we know it) wouldn't be popular if they weren't aired on TV is kinda... wrong.

Wasn't Southern Cross & Mospeada failures in Japan?

Edited May 5, 2010 by terry the lone wolf

[Keith]

I do. Do you?

That's what I thought.

[RDClip]

Wasn't Southern Cross & Mospeada failures in Japan?

So?

Southern Cross and Mospeada really aren't that great. If a show isn't good then it should be allowed to fall into obscurity, not be shackled to a good show.

[jenius]

Hey, don't lump Mospeada in with Southern Cross. Southern Cross was a big failure because it sucked. Mospeada was a larger failure because merchandisers thought it was the next Macross so they dumped too much money in it trying to cash in on a phenomenon that didn't take.

Personal anecdotes aside, it's silly to argue that anime would have taken off in the US even if it weren't shown on TV. Macross would have never been as popular as The Macross Saga if it were brought over by random fans throughout the late 80s and early 90s. Sorry, some of us still would have watched it and loved it... but most of us would just be bigger Transformers or GI Joe fans.

Edited May 5, 2010 by jenius

[Seto Kaiba]

Robotech, Voltron, Saber Rider, & TRANZOR Z had nothing to do with it? Late 80's early 90's Anime was virtually dead on free tv. If you want to get technical Dragon Warrior was the 1st modern day anime back on free television. When I say modern Anime I mean from the 90's till now.

Eh... it might have been that way in your neck of the woods, but that doesn't necessarily hold true elsewhere. Personally, I'm looking at what you're saying and I'm seeing a largely indefensible argument. By any rational measure, the influence public access television had on the anime industry is somewhere between "minimal" and "nonexistent". The shows you've cited here were largely forgotten almost as soon as they went off the air, assuming anyone noticed them at all. Even into the late 90s anime was a poor performer of public access television. Even the popular titles of the day, Dragonball Z and Sailor Moon, failed to gain much of a following and were canceled. Anime didn't really gain a foothold on public television until the debut of Pokemon and similar titles around 1998. Even now, anime is still practically a nonentity on public television, with very few shows on the air, and almost all of them geared towards the youngest of audiences.

The thing that really sold anime to the American audience was the material that aired on cable television. In particular, Cartoon Network's "Toonami" block was instrumental in establishing anime's popularity. It wasn't until the show moved to Toonami that Dragonball Z became wildly popular, and other popular titles from that period followed suit... shows like Outlaw Star, Gundam Wing, Tenchi Universe, 08th MS Team, Neon Genesis Evangelion, etc. If even Robotech could enjoy a modest success on Toonami in 1998, then it goes without saying that the original Macross would likely have done the same (if not better due to subsequent licensing of the other shows). All the same, there's no denying that the influence of shows like Robotech and hacks like Carl Macek are minimal, and that the real factor that helped establish anime as something marketable in America was the release of largely unedited faithful dubs on cable television.

In the end it doesn't matter what impact Robotech had on popularizing anime in the west - bigger or smaller - either way it doesn't justify that HG and Robotech's only significant contribution to anime now and in the future will be as a HINDRANCE.

Precisely. Apart from a few brief attempts at revival in 1998, 2001, and 2006, Robotech has been a dead property since 1987. Ever since it failed to take off, all Harmony Gold has done with the property is use the rights that made the show possible to block legitimate licensing of the real deal to protect their dead horse.

[VF5SS]

Hey, don't lump Mospeada in with Southern Cross. Southern Cross was a big failure because it sucked.

Mospeada sucked just as much.

At least Southern Cross didn't randomly throw in the Lost World and Lupin antics.

[Einherjar]

I'm not going to comment about how good Mospeada or Southern Cross were. The point is, regardless of quality, the animation was pretty much the only reason HG cared to use them for anything (aka raw material). Heck, if they really mattered to them they would have not screwed up so much of the actual plot lines.

And to add, good job ruining Komilia, even if her real story was told in a video game that may or may not be official due to Macross II connections or something.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Einherjar

[Seto Kaiba]

Hey, don't lump Mospeada in with Southern Cross. Southern Cross was a big failure because it sucked. Mospeada was a larger failure because merchandisers thought it was the next Macross so they dumped too much money in it trying to cash in on a phenomenon that didn't take.

Mospeada sucked just as much.

At least Southern Cross didn't randomly throw in the Lost World and Lupin antics.

Well, to be fair... Genesis Climber Mospeada wasn't a bad show, it was a decent concept that ended up mediocre as the result of executive meddling. If they'd had the sense to keep the show's focus on ride armors instead of faffing about with transforming fighters in a transparent attempt to cash in on Macross's success, the show would probably have been more popular. As it was, they banked on it being the next big thing and it just didn't sell...

Now, there's no arguing that Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross was just a turd. Even the show's This is Animation book is pathetic, to say nothing of the concept art contained within.

[Seto Kaiba]

While I'm reluctant to bring any RT community shenanigans here for the obvious reasons, I just have to speak up briefly to voice my incredulous disgust.

On a related side note, I took a look at the boards over on Robotech.com and RobotechX.com for the first time in about five months, and I'm having second thoughts about the idea of a Robotech Wiki. I know there are other, much less idiotic Robotech fans out there... but if these are the sort of people who'd be populating the project's community section, it's probably not worth the effort. Sure, the material is still worth documenting... but the PEOPLE. My god, the PEOPLE in that fanbase SUCK.

Not to toot my own horn, but it looks like the illiteracy brigade's concerted effort to remove anyone with a functioning brain and a legitimate opinion from the fandom has, if anything, succeeded in driving the quality of discussion on the forums down to a level where describing it as "abysmal" seems overly generous. It's like everything went to hell in a handbasket as soon as the handful of knowledgeable fans stopped holding their hands and beating their skulls in with the facts. Hell, I thought Robotech.com was a crapsack even before I left, and now... the community has deteriorated to the point where I'm almost unwilling to believe it's the same site. I'm not sure what was more galling... the thread where they're making what they fondly imagine are profound arguments in favor of adopting Astro Plan as the next Robotech Saga, another "what became of the SDF-2" thread, the thread about how protoculture is like the force, or the threads hating on "Macross Purists" for not being shattered by Carl Macek's death and saying mean things like that he liked to take credit for the work of others and that he wasn't the anime messiah Robotech fans want to think he is.

Seriously... if this is the standard by which the Robotech fandom is to be judged, I'm going to have to seriously rethink the idea of a Robotech section for my site. I didn't think it'd gotten THIS bad...

[terry the lone wolf]

Eh... it might have been that way in your neck of the woods, but that doesn't necessarily hold true elsewhere. Personally, I'm looking at what you're saying and I'm seeing a largely indefensible argument. By any rational measure, the influence public access television had on the anime industry is somewhere between "minimal" and "nonexistent". The shows you've cited here were largely forgotten almost as soon as they went off the air, assuming anyone noticed them at all. Even into the late 90s anime was a poor performer of public access television. Even the popular titles of the day, Dragonball Z and Sailor Moon, failed to gain much of a following and were canceled. Anime didn't really gain a foothold on public television until the debut of Pokemon and similar titles around 1998. Even now, anime is still practically a nonentity on public television, with very few shows on the air, and almost all of them geared towards the youngest of audiences.

The thing that really sold anime to the American audience was the material that aired on cable television. In particular, Cartoon Network's "Toonami" block was instrumental in establishing anime's popularity. It wasn't until the show moved to Toonami that Dragonball Z became wildly popular, and other popular titles from that period followed suit... shows like Outlaw Star, Gundam Wing, Tenchi Universe, 08th MS Team, Neon Genesis Evangelion, etc. If even Robotech could enjoy a modest success on Toonami in 1998, then it goes without saying that the original Macross would likely have done the same (if not better due to subsequent licensing of the other shows). All the same, there's no denying that the influence of shows like Robotech and hacks like Carl Macek are minimal, and that the real factor that helped establish anime as something marketable in America was the release of largely unedited faithful dubs on cable television.

Public access television? I was referring to the old UHF channels in the Baltimore/Washington DC areas. Examples: WBFF 45, WNUV 54, and WDCA 20. In the 80's these were the channels that carried anime programming.

Now for DBZ and Sailor Moon (which by the way was broadcasted on Fox 45 & UPN 54 in Baltimore), yes both shows were cancelled on free TV but both shows had a large enough cult following that led to their eventual airing on CN. Why did CN pick these shows that became the building blocks for the Toonami block? When DBZ & Sailor Moon were cancelled on free TV fans of those shows couldn't wait for CN to pick them up so they can finish watching the story arcs that ended prematurely. Maybe the shows became bigger hits on CN but they already had a cult following.

Also, didn't DBZ lose its distributor Saban? I heard that Funimation (who holds trademark for DBZ) had a falling out with Saban who originally distributed the show. Funimation took over moved the operation to Houston and DBZ ended up on Cartoon Network.