HG and Robotech Debates

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LOL... you guys are making fun of people that don't know the difference between Robotech, Macross and Astroplan?

I consider those people lucky enough not to care about such mundane things.

We have gone full circle; the same can be said for most of us that 25 years ago that we didn't know the difference between Macross, Southern Corss & Mospeada.............. well you know where I going with this.

[Keith]

The difference is the large segment of the intentionally ignorant robotech fanbase. The part that neither wants to know the difference, nor cares about the origins of things. All they want is more rick hunter, and will scalp whatever they can in the hopes of getting it.

[Funkenstein]

Considering that Astro Plan is a flash animation, its probably easier for HG to shop the 3D parts around for someone to animate the normal scenes for them.

[Einherjar]

LOL... you guys are making fun of people that don't know the difference between Robotech, Macross and Astroplan?

I consider those people lucky enough not to care about such mundane things.

But they could be giving their attention, and more importantly money, to the wrong people, letting this whole confusing situation continue.

Which part are you asking about? There's more than one project mentioned in that paragraph.

The Robotech section. Is there more information that people need to know about or is it some harsh criticism about the establishment that can be pretty much be seen?

Edited April 28, 2010 by Einherjar

[Seto Kaiba]

The Robotech section. Is there more information that people need to know about or is it some harsh criticism about the establishment that can be pretty much be seen?

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, opportunities to give Harmony Gold the verbal thrashing they so richly deserve are fairly common, as are venues in which to do so. What I'm doing is something else entirely. You've probably never had any cause to notice, but the official reference section of Robotech.com (the "Infopedia") is downright pathetic. The comic books and novelizations aren't mentioned at all apart from a tiny blurb and tinier cover scan in the bibliography (one of the more recent additions). The Robotech TV series is barely covered at all, with a fair few characters and mecha having no entry at all, and the rest barely getting a picture and a paragraph. The Shadow Chronicles movie section is perhaps most embarrassing of all... it consists of a one-sentence-long timeline entry for September 2044 and some recolored ships on the mecha size comparison. To compound the idiocy, the class-names of the two original ship designs were wrong for a good long time. I'm sure you can see, given the lamentable state of the official reference materials, why Robotech fans are often ignorant of fairly simple facts about their own fandom.

To be rather blunt, there is a sizable body of information that just isn't available to what remains of the fanbase, and Harmony Gold doesn't give a toss because that would entail actual work or finding someone qualified who'll work for free... and their usual batch of lackeys who would gleefully work for free aren't up to the task.

Overall, it's not a terribly complicated operation I'm planning here. I'm going to give them some space on my server and some bandwidth, hook them up with a Wiki and a BBS, tie the two together so they can control who can and can't edit the Wiki side through a specific usergroup on the BBS that they can control themselves, set up a couple of nice-looking basic article templates, and wade in every now and again to clear up grammar and spelling. The implementation is quite easy, and is more or less ready to roll. The only logistical hurdle left to be sorted out is finding enough people who know a fair bit about the Robotech universe(s) and are willing to work within the boundaries of canonicity I've defined for them.

The main stumbling block of any Robotech project like this is defining what is and is not canon, thanks to Tommy's incredibly asinine attempt to avoid saying that all the old crap is non-canon by calling it "secondary continuity". So for my project's purposes, I've defined three particular continuities in a much more practical way than most:

1.) Current Animated Continuity (Yune-iverse)

The part that the fans care about the most, the official continuity... composed of the 85 episode Robotech TV series, Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and those supplementary materials directly and explicitly included or referenced in that continuity: the Wildstorm comics (incl. Prelude), the Robotech II: the Sentinels "movie", and the Robotech II: the Sentinels comic book adaptation/continuation.

2.) Robotech Novelizations (McKinneyverse)

Despite their many, MANY departures from the animated series, the novelizations are self-contained enough to meet the practical definition of an alternate universe, so this one's self-explanatory... everything from the novels.

3.) Robotech Comics & Games (Apocryphaverse)

Of course, defining the other two universes leaves you with a big heap of poo that doesn't fit anywhere... stuff that just doesn't line up with either of the other continuities. In particular, this includes all of the pre-Wildstorm comics excluding the Waltrip bros. Sentinels series, the semi-recent Robotech video games (Battlecry, Invasion), the old and new Palladium RPGs, and the aborted/disowned Robotech animated properties... Robotech: the Untold Story and Robotech 3000... etc. It's basically a dumping ground for the inconsistent mess that makes up the majority of the Robotech expanded universe.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, opportunities to give Harmony Gold the verbal thrashing they so richly deserve are fairly common, as are venues in which to do so. What I'm doing is something else entirely. You've probably never had any cause to notice, but the official reference section of Robotech.com (the "Infopedia") is downright pathetic. The comic books and novelizations aren't mentioned at all apart from a tiny blurb and tinier cover scan in the bibliography (one of the more recent additions). The Robotech TV series is barely covered at all, with a fair few characters and mecha having no entry at all, and the rest barely getting a picture and a paragraph. The Shadow Chronicles movie section is perhaps most embarrassing of all... it consists of a one-sentence-long timeline entry for September 2044 and some recolored ships on the mecha size comparison. To compound the idiocy, the class-names of the two original ship designs were wrong for a good long time. I'm sure you can see, given the lamentable state of the official reference materials, why Robotech fans are often ignorant of fairly simple facts about their own fandom.

To be rather blunt, there is a sizable body of information that just isn't available to what remains of the fanbase, and Harmony Gold doesn't give a toss because that would entail actual work or finding someone qualified who'll work for free... and their usual batch of lackeys who would gleefully work for free aren't up to the task.

Overall, it's not a terribly complicated operation I'm planning here. I'm going to give them some space on my server and some bandwidth, hook them up with a Wiki and a BBS, tie the two together so they can control who can and can't edit the Wiki side through a specific usergroup on the BBS that they can control themselves, set up a couple of nice-looking basic article templates, and wade in every now and again to clear up grammar and spelling. The implementation is quite easy, and is more or less ready to roll. The only logistical hurdle left to be sorted out is finding enough people who know a fair bit about the Robotech universe(s) and are willing to work within the boundaries of canonicity I've defined for them.

The main stumbling block of any Robotech project like this is defining what is and is not canon, thanks to Tommy's incredibly asinine attempt to avoid saying that all the old crap is non-canon by calling it "secondary continuity". So for my project's purposes, I've defined three particular continuities in a much more practical way than most:

1.) Current Animated Continuity (Yune-iverse)

The part that the fans care about the most, the official continuity... composed of the 85 episode Robotech TV series, Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and those supplementary materials directly and explicitly included or referenced in that continuity: the Wildstorm comics (incl. Prelude), the Robotech II: the Sentinels "movie", and the Robotech II: the Sentinels comic book adaptation/continuation.

2.) Robotech Novelizations (McKinneyverse)

Despite their many, MANY departures from the animated series, the novelizations are self-contained enough to meet the practical definition of an alternate universe, so this one's self-explanatory... everything from the novels.

3.) Robotech Comics & Games (Apocryphaverse)

Of course, defining the other two universes leaves you with a big heap of poo that doesn't fit anywhere... stuff that just doesn't line up with either of the other continuities. In particular, this includes all of the pre-Wildstorm comics excluding the Waltrip bros. Sentinels series, the semi-recent Robotech video games (Battlecry, Invasion), the old and new Palladium RPGs, and the aborted/disowned Robotech animated properties... Robotech: the Untold Story and Robotech 3000... etc. It's basically a dumping ground for the inconsistent mess that makes up the majority of the Robotech expanded universe.

That sounds like a lot of work for something that isn't really worth it...

EDIT: And again, you'll run into the same problem that EVERYONE runs into when trying to compile Robotech information...everything is a fanfic. Where are you going to get the stats from? "Official sources"? WHAT official sources? There's nothing in-depth about Robotech, unless you want to use the RPG books, and they're full of errors.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Gubaba

[Seto Kaiba]

That sounds like a lot of work for something that isn't really worth it...

Which is why I, being the clever chap that I am, am essentially handing over the bulk of the tedious work on the Robotech expanded universe to those who are care enough about it to provide decent coverage for it... ;-)

EDIT: And again, you'll run into the same problem that EVERYONE runs into when trying to compile Robotech information...everything is a fanfic. Where are you going to get the stats from? "Official sources"? WHAT official sources? There's nothing in-depth about Robotech, unless you want to use the RPG books, and they're full of errors.

Eh... that would be an issue if my aim was to provide a comprehensive mechanical design reference for the Robotech universe(s) similar to what the Macross Mecha Manual does for Macross. In practice, no Robotech reference would be able to pull off that level of coverage, because few official sources simply don't provide that level of detail. The goal here isn't to bludgeon the reader with in-depth technical coverage about the mecha, but rather to provide balanced coverage of all aspects of Robotech. There aren't any obstacles like that to providing story summaries, production and publication information, and character bios, since that material is all readily available and just needs to be condensed into a manageable format. Insofar as mechanical details, it's a matter of taking what little official information exists (RT.com Infopedia, AoTSC) and building on it a bit based on what's shown in the animation and RTSC production materials. For the few designs which have no official coverage, that can be remedied easily enough using the same practices the writers of the few official Robotech publications used (basically, take the hard specs from the OSM and state the obvious for a paragraph or two).

[VF5SS]

Eh... that would be an issue if my aim was to provide a comprehensive mechanical design reference for the Robotech universe(s) similar to what the Macross Mecha Manual does for Macross.

why don't you just do it for the original shows and stop caring about robotech all together

seriously

robotech is stupid

it's always been stupid

just stop and it goes away~

[Seto Kaiba]

why don't you just do it for the original shows

I am... that's the main purpose of the new server we're migrating to. This Robotech business is far and away the smallest and lowest priority part of what we have planned. The main focus of the site will be what we're semi-seriously calling the Macross Galaxy Guide... a two-part reference providing general coverage of both Macross continuities. My focus on characters and settings should provide a nice complement to Mr March's exhaustive coverage of the mechanical designs, which will also be hosted on our servers just as it is now.

and stop caring about robotech all together

seriously

robotech is stupid

it's always been stupid

just stop and it goes away~

If only it were that easy... so long as Harmony Gold thinks there's money to be made from milking the nostalgia Robotech fans have for their mangled version of Macross, Robotech will never simply vanish.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

If only it were that easy... so long as Harmony Gold thinks there's money to be made from milking the nostalgia Robotech fans have for their mangled version of Macross, Robotech will never simply vanish.

You're misunderstanding; you can tell the state of a franchise with the amount of new material that comes out on a regular basis. The same defective toys and recollected reissues of old comic book releases are not a good thing. No one even knows where Shadow Rising has been in 4 years and the guy who did Stomp the Yard is the latest person to be affiliated with the LAM.

All I see is a company limping on hoping the legal holdings over Macross footage and merchandising will get them through another year while waiting for WB to give them some exposure. Your work is unnecessary.

And while I'm at it, MEMO's competing work is also unnecessary, and hopeless unless he has a good lawyer somewhere down the line.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Einherjar

[Maxtype]

I am... that's the main purpose of the new server we're migrating to. This Robotech business is far and away the smallest and lowest priority part of what we have planned. The main focus of the site will be what we're semi-seriously calling the Macross Galaxy Guide... a two-part reference providing general coverage of both Macross continuities. My focus on characters and settings should provide a nice complement to Mr March's exhaustive coverage of the mechanical designs, which will also be hosted on our servers just as it is now.

If only it were that easy... so long as Harmony Gold thinks there's money to be made from milking the nostalgia Robotech fans have for their mangled version of Macross, Robotech will never simply vanish.

Seto, I think there is some additional value to having the Robotech section in that you guys might help to clear up some confusion about the series and how it relates to Macross. There are a lot of casual anime fans who are unaware of the difference, and maybe they will look at the shows in a new light.

[azrael]

All I see is a company limping on hoping the legal holdings over Macross footage and merchandising will get them through another year while waiting for WB to give them some exposure. Your work is unnecessary.

Again, HG's revenue is coming more from other sources than just that Macross license. That license is probably only a very very small part of their revenue with most coming from international licensing and real estate.

[Seto Kaiba]

You're misunderstanding; you can tell the state of a franchise with the amount of new material that comes out on a regular basis. The same defective toys and recollected reissues of old comic book releases are not a good thing. No one even knows where Shadow Rising has been in 4 years and the guy who did Stomp the Yard is the latest person to be affiliated with the LAM.

All I see is a company limping on hoping the legal holdings over Macross footage and merchandising will get them through another year while waiting for WB to give them some exposure.

Okay, nobody with half a brain would deny that Robotech is in extremely dire straits... but really, this isn't about any kind of support for the brand. Is the brand circling the drain? Definitely. Is that any reason to hang the good people in the fandom out to dry? No. I personally think Robotech's franchise needs to just die already... the magic is gone, and has been for the better part of 24 years now. It should be looked back on fondly as a reminder of the days when we weren't quite as sophisticated as we are now... like replaying a Duke Nukem game. It's tasteless and campy and horrible, but it maintains a sense of ironic retro camp that's weirdly compelling.

Your work is unnecessary.

And while I'm at it, MEMO's competing work is also unnecessary, and hopeless unless he has a good lawyer somewhere down the line.

Oh, of course it's not NECESSARY... but is anything fandom-related necessary? One of the main reasons that the Robotech fandom is as belligerent and ignorant as it is is because they DON'T have the kind of resources and the kind of solidarity we have in the Macross fandom. Most of them don't even have the wherewithal to figure out how to facilitate that kind of environment. Is giving them a chance to help curtail their ignorant behavior and do something nice for their fellow fans really that offensive to you? It's not like I'm taking time away from my work on Macross for this... the setup is like two hours tops, and then it's largely out of my hands. It's not pointless... if they enjoy it and get some use out of it, then it was worthwhile for those people. Like as not, Robotech IS a part of Macross history... it might be a part we're deeply ashamed of, and a part that breeds idiots like no other, but pretending it doesn't exist won't help matters either. The more they know, the less likely they are to act like idiots in the future.

Now what MEMO's doing with his "Robotech Codex" is just stupid... he just doesn't have the pattern recognition skills to realize he's blundering blindly into the same situation Brian Mcafee's been stuck in for years.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Again, HG's revenue is coming more from other sources than just that Macross license. That license is probably only a very very small part of their revenue with most coming from international licensing and real estate.

Would it be safe to say then, that if the Robotech section of HG was consistently under-performing and no one was interested in collaborating in any way with that license, their bosses can give them the shaft with no adverse effects to the company? They'll keep the license, but won't have to keep paying the usual people for... whatever they do these days.

Oh, of course it's not NECESSARY... but is anything fandom-related necessary? One of the main reasons that the Robotech fandom is as belligerent and ignorant as it is is because they DON'T have the kind of resources and the kind of solidarity we have in the Macross fandom. Most of them don't even have the wherewithal to figure out how to facilitate that kind of environment. Is giving them a chance to help curtail their ignorant behavior and do something nice for their fellow fans really that offensive to you? It's not like I'm taking time away from my work on Macross for this... the setup is like two hours tops, and then it's largely out of my hands. It's not pointless... if they enjoy it and get some use out of it, then it was worthwhile for those people. Like as not, Robotech IS a part of Macross history... it might be a part we're deeply ashamed of, and a part that breeds idiots like no other, but pretending it doesn't exist won't help matters either. The more they know, the less likely they are to act like idiots in the future.

It sounds too complicated, perhaps an epitaph to the glory days of Robotech would be enough. A lot of the potential information that could go into this is readily available on one form or another out there. Why do the work people really should be doing themselves? And it's not like another website dedicated to Robotech/Macross is going to make a difference; people are free to ignore even a well made site with all the info about the shows one would ever want.

Because some people just love hating Macross Purists for whatever reason.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Einherjar

[azrael]

Would it be safe to say then, that if the Robotech section of HG was consistently under-performing and no one was interested in collaborating in any way with that license, their bosses can give them the shaft with no adverse effects to the company? They'll keep the license, but won't have to keep paying the usual people for... whatever they do these days.

That's only IF it was under-performing. We don't know if it is under-performing. And even then, the bar could be set low on how much profit it makes so any time that ceiling is surpassed, it could be considered a success. For instance, let's say Shadow Chronicles sold X-number of copies and HG expected to sell Y-number of copies, where X>Y (or where X=Y), that would be considered a success. It could also be considered to be doing well if you have a certain percentage that's not being returned. Again, we'll use Shadow Chronicles as an example. If it sold X-number of copies but was expected to sell Y-number of copies (so X<Y) but X is 80% of Y, it could be considered a success because X is the amount you don't have to get back from a distributor to sell on your own. You can sell that remaining 20% over time and not worry about that 80% of Y because it's out there in the market and not in your hands.

[Legioss]

There's nothing to make a reference for except twisted versions of the original shows. Robotech is about Zor, the first Robotech Master, and his invention Robotechnology (which uses protoculture), and the consequences of that. We know very little about Zor. His clone's onscreen, but not him. Harmony Gold isn't helpful at all with clarifying the events in his life described in the series. The Zentraedi rebelled against the Masters 500,000 years ago. Why are they working as mercenaries of the Masters? We'll never know. Who are the Disciples of Zor and why are they at war with the Masters? We'll never know. What happened to the Masters empire? We'll never know, because there never was one. Without the whole point of the story, it's nothing but a bad dub of Mospeada.

[Einherjar]

There's nothing to make a reference for except twisted versions of the original shows. Robotech is about Zor, the first Robotech Master, and his invention Robotechnology (which uses protoculture), and the consequences of that. We know very little about Zor. His clone's onscreen, but not him. Harmony Gold isn't helpful at all with clarifying the events in his life described in the series. The Zentraedi rebelled against the Masters 500,000 years ago. Why are they working as mercenaries of the Masters? We'll never know. Who are the Disciples of Zor and why are they at war with the Masters? We'll never know. What happened to the Masters empire? We'll never know, because there never was one. Without the whole point of the story, it's nothing but a bad dub of Mospeada.

Actually, most of the answers is privileged information you have to pay extra money for. But there's less incentive to now that the novels and comics don't count. So you're right, no one knows, even HG these days.

But if you're interested in that, they're still giving you the chance to buy them, even though they're non-canon.

That's only IF it was under-performing. We don't know if it is under-performing. And even then, the bar could be set low on how much profit it makes so any time that ceiling is surpassed, it could be considered a success. For instance, let's say Shadow Chronicles sold X-number of copies and HG expected to sell Y-number of copies, where X>Y (or where X=Y), that would be considered a success. It could also be considered to be doing well if you have a certain percentage that's not being returned. Again, we'll use Shadow Chronicles as an example. If it sold X-number of copies but was expected to sell Y-number of copies (so X<Y) but X is 80% of Y, it could be considered a success because X is the amount you don't have to get back from a distributor to sell on your own. You can sell that remaining 20% over time and not worry about that 80% of Y because it's out there in the market and not in your hands.

So for all we know, the current situation with Robotech in general could be totally acceptable to HG profit-wise, despite fans and other people saying otherwise. It works from a business perspective. But for the disgruntled people the strategy made who treat this as serious business, too bad. Keep hoping for real attention from them when they feel like it.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Einherjar

[azrael]

So for all we know, the current situation with Robotech in general could be totally acceptable to HG profit-wise, despite fans and other people saying otherwise. It works from a business perspective. But for the disgruntled people the strategy made who treat this as serious business, too bad. Keep hoping for real attention from them when they feel like it.

Bingo. The only way to know the answers is to get a look at HG's books, which, definitely, ain't gonna happen.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto, I think there is some additional value to having the Robotech section in that you guys might help to clear up some confusion about the series and how it relates to Macross. There are a lot of casual anime fans who are unaware of the difference, and maybe they will look at the shows in a new light.

Really, that much could be done with a simple FAQ on the Macross side of things... which is something we've been doing since the very earliest days of the project, back in ~2003 when it was a simple RPG site hell-bent on fixing all of Palladium's well-intentioned and/or ignorant misrepresentations in Palladium's Macross II RPG.

It sounds too complicated, perhaps an epitaph to the glory days of Robotech would be enough.

Eh? Now there's an idea for an astonishingly short Robotech fan project... the only period in Robotech history that could be called the "glory days" with a straight face would be the original broadcast that started in March 1985 and ended four months later in June. Everything that came after was part of the franchise's embarrassingly long, slow slide into oblivion.

A lot of the potential information that could go into this is readily available on one form or another out there. Why do the work people really should be doing themselves?

Um... you say this as though it's a revelation, and I'm wondering why? Perchance, are you deliberately being thick? Yes, the information that could go into a project like this is available out there in one form or another. The same can easily be said for ANY fan site publication. After all, what are the Macross Compendium and Macross Mecha Manual but condensed versions of the printed materials? Why do the work people like you really should be doing for yourselves by providing all the information in those books in a condensed, easy-to-reference format? Are you saying that those of us who make the fan-subs and translate the artbooks should hang the rest of you out to dry because you're unwilling or unable to track down each and every rare art book from the 80s, or import every issue of Chronicle?

Now, if we all adhered to your astonishingly poor logic, none of the Macross reference sites you take for granted would exist. Nor, for that matter, would Wikipedia and the multitude of Wikias. (Of course, I could carry this to a rather illogical extreme and point out that if everyone had this attitude about doing things for other people, we wouldn't have dictionaries, and the doctor at the emergency room would tell you to stop bitching and do your own damn stitches.)

And it's not like another website dedicated to Robotech/Macross is going to make a difference; people are free to ignore even a well made site with all the info about the shows one would ever want. Because some people just love hating Macross Purists for whatever reason.

HONOES! Some Robotech fascist fanboys might not visit or contribute to a project created by someone they don't like! How could I have missed such an important, Earth-shaking revelation?! Surely the project is doomed because a handful of mentally-deficient internet tough guys don't think I'm Mr. Fred F***ING Rogers! How will any fan project or online community survive without a legion of gunmen holding high-caliber firearms to everyone's skulls, forcing them under threat of death to visit this and other sites?!

Okay dude, now that I've listened to this appallingly lame reasoning of yours, I want you to do me a favor. Get a good firm grip on your hair, and pull your head out of your arse. It honestly sounds like you're afraid this goddamn Wiki will trigger some kind of Robotech fandom revival or some poo like that. Look... even Mark Hamill couldn't polish that turd, so I've got no chance of causing a Robotech comeback. Is the idea of me providing Robotech fans with their own equivalent of the Macross Compendium really THAT offensive to you? Was your entire family murdered by a Robotech box set or something? I can't imagine why you think I give a poo about the penis-puffing poppycock of three or four jackasses who see Robotech and Harmony Gold as a ticket to self-advancement, or that what they have to say would have ANY impact on the project whatsoever. In case you haven't noticed, not only are they not the entirety of the fandom, they don't even represent the opinions of the majority. The majority of Robotech fans are NOT the frothy-mouthed fascists who preach "Death to Macross Purists". There are a fair few good people in the Robotech fandom who would benefit from and enjoy a comprehensive Robotech reference site untainted by fan-fiction or Harmony Gold kiss-assery, and those are the people that the project is for.

There's nothing to make a reference for except twisted versions of the original shows. Robotech is about Zor, the first Robotech Master, and his invention Robotechnology (which uses protoculture), and the consequences of that. We know very little about Zor. His clone's onscreen, but not him. Harmony Gold isn't helpful at all with clarifying the events in his life described in the series. The Zentraedi rebelled against the Masters 500,000 years ago. Why are they working as mercenaries of the Masters? We'll never know. Who are the Disciples of Zor and why are they at war with the Masters? We'll never know. What happened to the Masters empire? We'll never know, because there never was one. Without the whole point of the story, it's nothing but a bad dub of Mospeada.

Um... at the risk of pointing out a potential flaw in your reasoning here... Tommy Yune directly referenced the old Waltrip Sentinels series in Prelude (picked up right where it left off, in fact), so we do have some reliable details about the life and crimes of Zor... who was, by all accounts, an astonishing dick with a penchant for putting off any thinking until a few decades after he acted.

Is Harmony Gold helpful? Of course not. They're apefaces. Tommy Yune couldn't write his way out of a damp paper sack, and the rest of that crowd is no better. The last person they had who had a goddamn clue was Tom Bateman, and we all know what happened to him. They won't even update their official reference section or put together a coherent timeline based on their own work. Embarrassing for them, since in practice it's ASTONISHINGLY easy if you look at it logically.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Um... you say this as though it's a revelation, and I'm wondering why? Perchance, are you deliberately being thick? Yes, the information that could go into a project like this is available out there in one form or another. The same can easily be said for ANY fan site publication. After all, what are the Macross Compendium and Macross Mecha Manual but condensed versions of the printed materials? Why do the work people like you really should be doing for yourselves by providing all the information in those books in a condensed, easy-to-reference format? Are you saying that those of us who make the fan-subs and translate the artbooks should hang the rest of you out to dry because you're unwilling or unable to track down each and every rare art book from the 80s, or import every issue of Chronicle?

Now, if we all adhered to your astonishingly poor logic, none of the Macross reference sites you take for granted would exist. Nor, for that matter, would Wikipedia and the multitude of Wikias. (Of course, I could carry this to a rather illogical extreme and point out that if everyone had this attitude about doing things for other people, we wouldn't have dictionaries, and the doctor at the emergency room would tell you to stop bitching and do your own damn stitches.)

That is not a fair comparison. The most Macross material was never translated, and may never will be officially, into English. People definitely need help when it comes to that, even if they do spend the money for it or download it. All Robotech material, made by HG and etc., is already in English and digital copies of all of it can be found and downloaded, from the artbooks, which include much of the information HG is going to ever give about the franchise, to all the comic books and probably novels. They also did shove them down people's throats instead of official Macross material for years. Unless a more balanced explanation for everything Robotech is needed, the amount of work someone needs to do by themselves would be Googling them, using bittorrent or other downloading service to get them, reading them and making their own conclusions.

Yes, buying them legit is another option, but people know what I think about that.

[Legioss]

You want to make a reference for that? Okay. If I were intent on making such a thing (not that I would), I'd just briefly summarize the series, comics, and Shadow Chronicles so it seems like it all fits together. That's Tommy's Robotech. Don't think about it more than he did. You're basically writing your own Robotech fanfic by putting together the Infopedia (or whatever you're using) and the comics. Am I right that this is for Robotech.com types?

[Seto Kaiba]

That is not a fair comparison. The most Macross material was never translated, and may never will be officially, into English. People definitely need help when it comes to that, even if they do spend the money for it or download it.

So what's stopping you from taking a few Japanese courses at your local community college and doing the translations for yourself you lazy loafer?

Seriously though, I realize it's somewhat unreasonable, but the point stands. Even if the stuff gets translated, by your logic we should just scatter the translations to the four winds and let you lot search for them on your own rather than collecting the information in a few convenient locations for easy reference. We could also approach this from an angle like that of Wookiepedia, where the expanded universe is just so massive, and so much of it is obscure, that only the most obsessive of Star Wars fans would be able to track all the relevant information they wanted without having someone condense it first. The average fan just DOES NOT have that much patience... that's why reference sites like Wikia have become so popular. It's a great way for the devoted fans to condense the vast quantities of material into references that make the series accessible to Joe Average.

All Robotech material, made by HG and etc., is already in English and digital copies of all of it can be found and downloaded, from the artbooks, which include much of the information HG is going to ever give about the franchise, to all the comic books and probably novels.

Sure, the same can be said for the materials of a bunch of franchises... but you're still missing the goddamn point. Who the fart has the time to wade through all that crap when they just want a quick answer to their question? Relying on the experts to answer questions on a BBS is a fatally flawed system because inevitably you end up answering the same few questions over and over again because it's a lot harder to search a BBS for answers than a Wiki, if only because in most cases you end up having to wade through torrents of worthless verbiage to get to the answer. Wading through all of the source materials looking for the answer is far too tedious and time consuming for most fans to bother with... for starters you have to actually have the material on hand, and then you have to thumb/scan through a few hundred comic books, or thousands of pages worth of novels looking for the specific fact you want. Tell me, which is faster? Trolling through a dozen novels looking for the fate of a particular character, or loading up a Wiki about the series and searching for that character's name? (Free hint, unless you're ASTONISHINGLY lucky, the Wiki is going to win the race every time).

They also did shove them down people's throats instead of official Macross material for years. Unless a more balanced explanation for everything Robotech is needed, the amount of work someone needs to do by themselves would be Googling them, using bittorrent or other downloading service to get them, reading them and making their own conclusions.

Okay, I see where you're coming from now... bitterness.

Again, the point that you fail to grasp with laudable consistency is the simple fact that the average fan who doesn't know much (or anything) about the old comics, novels, etc. isn't even going to know where to start if they're looking to get an answer for their particular question about those sources. This latest pathetic line of yours that they ought to just Google for and download EVERYTHING to get the answer to one specific question is so incredibly asinine that I'm not even sure whether to take it seriously or not. Honestly, are you shitting me? If someone wants to know what the symptoms of the flu are, you don't tell them "Go to medical school and spend four years studying viral pathology", you look it up quickly online or hand the poor sod a medical dictionary where the answer is already distilled down to a level that a non-expert can easily grasp. If someone wants the answer to a specific question about a specific topic, telling them to go study the entire subject matter in depth and figure it out for themselves is just being the sort of unhelpful douche nobody wants to have around.

Having an easily-accessible comprehensive resource like a Wiki or a reference site goes a LONG way towards cutting down on repeats of the same tired questions, and allows fans to find a common frame of reference for discussing the subject matter. Robotech fans often come off as ignorant because that's exactly what they DON'T HAVE. All they can do is draw their own conclusions because Harmony Gold can't be arsed to cover 99% of Robotech on their Infopedia.

You want to make a reference for that? Okay. If I were intent on making such a thing (not that I would), I'd just briefly summarize the series, comics, and Shadow Chronicles so it seems like it all fits together. That's Tommy's Robotech. Don't think about it more than he did. You're basically writing your own Robotech fanfic by putting together the Infopedia (or whatever you're using) and the comics. Am I right that this is for Robotech.com types?

Seriously, the outpatients are out in force tonight... what the hell guys?

The problem with your assertion is that Tommy plainly didn't think about it at all when it comes to defining what is and isn't in the continuity. His response to the question was essentially that he can't be arsed to sort it all out, and leaving everything completely ambiguous. I hardly think it unreasonable to include a title in the continuity if an unambiguously canon title recaps it and continues the story right where the reference being recapped left off. What you're arguing is something very much akin to saying Star Trek III was not related in any way to Star Trek II, despite ST3 following directly on from the events of ST2 and referencing it ad nauseam. Insofar as Prelude and the Sentinels comics, saying that tying the two together is fanfiction falls apart on the grounds that about the first two issues of the Prelude comic is material taken whole cloth with only minor cosmetic alterations from the final issue of the Sentinels comics.

I think part of the reason I'm running into so much carping from the peanut gallery over this is that people here are so used to the idea of just slagging Robotech as a disorganized mess that they they never bothered to stop and look for any underlying logic in any of it. So, of course, the idea that there might actually be some (if possibly unintentional or the result of laziness) seems to have come as something of a shock...

Since you asked, the target audience is not only the RT.com crowd, but also the casual fans and people who are just plain curious about this weird piece of anime esoterica that Harmony Gold refuses to just let go of. The general motivations are the same as those of the people who put together something like the Macross Compendium, Memory Alpha, Wookiepeida, etc.... making detailed information about the universe accessible to everyone and not just the die-hards who follow all of the expanded universe stuff.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Seriously though, I realize it's somewhat unreasonable, but the point stands. Even if the stuff gets translated, by your logic we should just scatter the translations to the four winds and let you lot search for them on your own rather than collecting the information in a few convenient locations for easy reference. We could also approach this from an angle like that of Wookiepedia, where the expanded universe is just so massive, and so much of it is obscure, that only the most obsessive of Star Wars fans would be able to track all the relevant information they wanted without having someone condense it first. The average fan just DOES NOT have that much patience... that's why reference sites like Wikia have become so popular. It's a great way for the devoted fans to condense the vast quantities of material into references that make the series accessible to Joe Average.

Okay, I see where you're coming from now... bitterness.

Why are you putting words into my mouth and interpreting it in a whole different direction? I sure didn't say translating all the Macross material out there and freely letting people have at it was a good idea. In fact, I was not disputing that part of any plan; hosting a site with that information, like M3, is a good thing. But I don't see why you're dragging that into the discussion, since we've all been taking about stuff like that laundry list of secondary Robotech material and etc. you mentioned. There wasn't anything out there NOT written in English for Robotech, right? And Wookiepedia, is that not already just a Wikia, that you referred as if there's a difference, for Star Wars? You don't want to make one as expansive for Robotech, but you're still going to use the same/similar service to make one more accessible to the average joe?

And actually, I was being analytical about the whole thing, and probably realistic too. You seem to be the one who's taking this very personally.

[Seto Kaiba]

Why are you putting words into my mouth and interpreting it in a whole different direction? I sure didn't say translating all the Macross material out there and freely letting people have at it was a good idea. In fact, I was not disputing that part of any plan; hosting a site with that information, like M3, is a good thing.

Okay, since this line of reasoning is apparently a mystery to you, I'll go ahead and explain AGAIN...

Let's examine the actual substance of your argument here... you've consistently asserted, on the grounds that most of Robotech is "out there" on the internet, that making information about this material accessible on a reference site would be a waste because it's "work people really should be doing themselves". You have quite literally suggested that, rather than having a readily-accessible reference site where Robotech fans and casual viewers could find answers for their questions and learn more about the universe(s), each and every fan or casual viewer with a question ought to just download each and every title in the expanded universe, read them all, and figure out the answer on their own. To be frank, you've spent four or five posts telling us that reference sites are a waste of time and a bad idea, and that all fans ought to seek out the information on their own and decide what's what for themselves. That's just STUPID.

Tell me, is a site like Memory Alpha, Wookiepedia, or the Macross Compendium also a waste because that information is "out there" in one form or another? You're clearly saying in this most recent post that such sites are a good thing for the fandom and the casual viewer... yet you've objected to the idea of a Robotech Wiki in this thread no less than three times in forty-eight hours. What you're saying now seems like a 180 from your previous position.

But I don't see why you're dragging that into the discussion, since we've all been taking about stuff like that laundry list of secondary Robotech material and etc. you mentioned. There wasn't anything out there NOT written in English for Robotech, right? And Wookiepedia, is that not already just a Wikia, that you referred as if there's a difference, for Star Wars? You don't want to make one as expansive for Robotech, but you're still going to use the same/similar service to make one more accessible to the average joe?

Y'see, this is the whole goddamn point that's somehow not getting across. For example, if a fan is curious about some aspect of the novels, the comics, etc. and they just want a quick answer to their question, then it's incredibly stupid to expect them to download and sift through a sizable body of material they have no interest in just to get their question answered when you could have a Wiki or something along those lines where they can find their answer in seconds and with minimal hassle. With the information accessible to everyone, and not just those determined or devoted enough to build a private collection of this crap, you cut down on a lot of idiot repeat questions and crackpot theories, the fans can learn more about the various aspects of the franchise and decide whether or not they want to explore those parts for themselves, and casual observers can explore the universe and learn about it without having to register on a BBS and get frothed at by delusional fruitcakes like Rhade, Sanman, Maverick, and MEMO.

The reason I used Wookiepedia as an example was, as should have been immediately obvious, it's the same goddamn principle in action. Same damn thing, just for a different sci-fi franchise. I'm not sure where you ran away with the idea that it wasn't going to be expansive, since I never said that. What I did say was that, rather than write the damn thing myself, I'm gonna provide a set of guidelines for the project and leave a good portion of the actual writing to fans who are experts on particular parts of Robotech. It covers not just the core stuff from the movies, but the expanded universe too, and it does so in a way that is still accessible to the non-fan or the casual fan. That's the goal here...

And actually, I was being analytical about the whole thing, and probably realistic too. You seem to be the one who's taking this very personally.

Really, I'm not seeing what you're doing as analytical or realistic... if you were being analytical or realistic, it wouldn't have taken three verbal bludgeonings from me to figure out that reference sites are a good thing and that expecting the fans who just want a simple answer to a simple question to read the entire expanded universe to get it is unreasonable in the extreme.

[Duke Togo]

*snore*

[Seto Kaiba]

*snore*

Oh my, I'm sorry if we're boring you... while I realize that it must be upsetting for you to see something as unusual as someone having a conversation that isn't about toys on this forum, perhaps you could do the mature thing and ignore the thread if you don't like the subject matter instead of your usual tack of calling attention to yourself and/or making a fuss about how you don't like it? After all... this isn't 4chan.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Legioss]

I was just trying to be helpful. I didn't actually care about your website.

[Funkenstein]

Instead of a site compiling Robotech trivia, why not make a geocache with the "truth about Robotech", and force those RobotechX folks to actually step outside?

[Duke Togo]

Oh my, I'm sorry if we're boring you... while I realize that it must be upsetting for you to see something as unusual as someone having a conversation that isn't about toys on this forum, perhaps you could do the mature thing and ignore the thread if you don't like the subject matter instead of your usual tack of calling attention to yourself and/or making a fuss about how you don't like it? After all... this isn't 4chan.

I own one Valkyrie, I can't say I really get involved in any toy discussions.

And the snore wasn't for you; the other guy's reasoning is totally flawed. Discussion is going nowhere (but I guess it's better than the usual people bashing that goes on here).

[Seto Kaiba]

I was just trying to be helpful. I didn't actually care about your website.

Okay, I can appreciate the desire to be helpful... but opening with the suggestion that the whole project is a waste of time can't really be called help. Contrary to what you asserted, the project is not fan-fiction (as it relies on the most stringent fact-checking possible and virtually indisputable logic insofar as continuity), nor is it an unnecessary endeavour as our pal Einherjar asserted, since the niche it would fill has, in point of fact, never been filled before, and Robotech has yet to provide any kind of comprehensive official information source. The closest they have is a reference written for someone's fan-fiction series... the Unofficial Robotech Reference Guide, which makes no secret of the fact that it was never intended to serve as a reference for the official continuity.

Instead of a site compiling Robotech trivia, why not make a geocache with the "truth about Robotech", and force those RobotechX folks to actually step outside?

Because then I'd be arrested for mass murder after all the Robotech basement-dwellers who spend their copious free time trying to make me care that they badmouth me on their podcasts overexert themselves and suffer fatal heart attacks due to going decades without exercise. I could maybe get away with it if I convince them there's a Geocache in an active volcano somewhere and write the whole thing off as voluntary virgin sacrifice to a volcano god.

I own one Valkyrie, I can't say I really get involved in any toy discussions.

Perhaps, but you know as well as I do that the only part of this site that the mods actually care about fostering actual discussion in is the toy section. Everything else is moderated into a borderline catatonic state.

And the snore wasn't for you; the other guy's reasoning is totally flawed. Discussion is going nowhere (but I guess it's better than the usual people bashing that goes on here).

Context would've been nice in the initial post then.

Really, I would've been more interested to get feedback on my attempt to impose some sense of logic on the various Robotech stories, but someone decided to fixate on "a wiki is a bad idea" instead.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Robelwell202]

Really, I would've been more interested to get feedback on my attempt to impose some sense of logic on the various Robotech stories, but someone decided to fixate on "a wiki is a bad idea" instead.

Well, here's a thought.

"It's a complete waste of time, since HG, RT, and the fanboy loyalists don't acknowledge Logic or Reasoning."

How's that?

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, here's a thought.

"It's a complete waste of time, since HG, RT, and the fanboy loyalists don't acknowledge Logic or Reasoning."

How's that?

Okay... you've got me there... but let's remember that the majority of fans aren't that goddamn stupid, and just end up getting caught in the clusterfart of insane theories bouncing around Robotech.com. This isn't a project for the die-hard nutjobs, it's something for the everyman.

[Jasonc]

Remind us again why there's this Robotech infopedia thing being done for something you don't like, Seto? I'm not criticising you, just truly curious. From many of your posts, it sounds like you don't like Robotech at all. If you don't, that's all fine and whatnot, but if that is the case, why would you be giving so much attention to something that you don't like the series, you don't like the idiots that work for it, and you don't like the extreme vocals of the f!@#tard group? If it's cause you do still have interest in it, I'm curious how much interest you have to be doing this. If it's for a group of friends, that's cool and all, but I'm curious here, and it seems like others are as well.

[Seto Kaiba]

Remind us again why there's this Robotech infopedia thing being done for something you don't like, Seto? I'm not criticising you, just truly curious. From many of your posts, it sounds like you don't like Robotech at all. If you don't, that's all fine and whatnot, but if that is the case, why would you be giving so much attention to something that you don't like the series, you don't like the idiots that work for it, and you don't like the extreme vocals of the f!@#tard group? If it's cause you do still have interest in it, I'm curious how much interest you have to be doing this. If it's for a group of friends, that's cool and all, but I'm curious here, and it seems like others are as well.

Okay, now THAT is a good question... one with a long answer, but a good question nonetheless. This might venture into tl;dr territory, so please bear with me since the explanation's somewhat complicated.

As you've said, it's certainly no secret that I don't have a whole lot of use for Robotech these days. It's not that I hate the show... it's that I hate what the show has become, what it stands for, and the sort of asinine behavior it brings out in its fans. To me, Robotech is a relic of a bygone era in the American anime industry. It's an interesting little historical curiosity that we can all gawk at and wonder what the hell the people responsible for it were thinking. Putting aside its alleged and highly debatable influence on the formation of the anime industry, the show itself itself aged about as well as unrefrigerated milk, and as a result has a weird retro camp aspect that at least lends it a little entertainment value. As I see it, the Robotech story had potential once, but that potential was wasted by the terminally inept, generally unimaginative, and incredibly dishonest people in charge of the show. The general antipathy I display for the Robotech franchise is largely the result of what the show has come to stand for... ignorance, deceit, and abuse of the source material. I find it particularly appalling that, rather than be honest about the show's origins, both Carl Macek and Tommy Yune opted to treat it as a "dirty little secret" and made an effort to convince the fans that the shows which make up Robotech are inferior and have no value outside of their adapted versions.

In short, I don't hate Robotech so much as I hate what Robotech and its fanbase have become and what they now stand for.

Now, as to why I'm planning this particular endeavor... (in no particular order)

Honestly, I suppose the main reason is that one of the chief reasons Robotech fans annoy the crap out of people isn't that they're apefaces (most aren't), but rather that they're just plain ignorant. One of the things you'll notice just in looking at Robotech.com and RobotechX.com is that many Robotech fans are pretty clueless about Robotech itself. This ignorance leads them to say and do stupid stuff that gets on people's nerves, and thus perpetuates the lousy reputation of the online Robotech fanbase. Remedy the ignorance, and you not only sweep the rug out from under the feet of people like Maverick, MEMO, and dougbendover, you also give them fodder for intelligent discussion (which you'll no doubt agree has been sorely lacking for a good while now) and the means to stop acting like idiots. It also can do rather a lot for the non-fan who is curious about this "Rowboattech" thing they've heard about but can't find much of any information on.

Another reason I'm doing it is that, like as not, Robotech is a part of Macross's history. It might be a part we aren't particularly proud of (or one that we'd like to bury forever like evidence of some dreadful crime), but it's still had an affect on Macross and the way Macross is perceived by western fans.

Some of it is, yes, that I made a promise to a few decent Robotech fans of my acquaintance that I would try to put together a community site for them free of the bullshit, politics, and witch-hunting that are all Robotech.com and RobotechX.com are really about these days.

And yes, some of it is nostalgia. Robotech was one of the first anime titles I was exposed to, so I do have some fond memories of it.

[Desty_Nova]

I would have thought that the less robotech material there is on the net, the better. A really well done information resource might just add fuel to the fire, encourage robotech discussion and convince the die-hards that their franchise is worth sticking with.

Seems to me like it would be feeding something I'd rather starved to death.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Desty_Nova