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HG and Robotech Debates

azrael

By azrael
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Moly_Sigang Sharon Apple Concert Attendee

Moly_Sigang

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I can see it right now, MEMO will be pestering Kevin or Tommy for explanation as to why RTX was taken down. :D

Gubaba Super Dimension Member

Gubaba

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I can see it right now, MEMO will be pestering Kevin or Tommy for explanation as to why RTX was taken down. :D

It's an April Fool's prank. Nothing more.

And speaking of April Fool's, Tokyo Toshokan has a good one this year...although I think I liked last year's "Beijing Tushuguan" prank better.

Edited by Gubaba
akt_m Bridge Bunny

akt_m

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All those fans who submitted "their" stuff. Yeah, sorry man. That's why I kept my stuff. If I sent pics of my customs, they'd probably send a letter asking for my toys.

Whatever, it wasn't something i put effort into...

Edited by akt_m
HappyPenguins Global's Pipe Holder

HappyPenguins

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Whatever, it wasn't something i put effort into, i already knew, just wanted to point out the hidden messages there like M > R and BW > HG. I was going to do something more creative, like when incresing the gamma and you see something, but the size limit to upload didn't allow me to do much, had to compress a lot the image to fit the size restrictions. Just did it after i read the terms and conditions to submit stuff there.

You still can request to take it off the site, after all the moderator for the fanart/fiction is Brian Mcafee and if you don't want something there anymore he will take it down for you.

macross_fan99 Destroid Armour Waxer

macross_fan99

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I have a question regarding this whole copyright mess between BW and Tatsunoko.

Assuming Tatsunoko had signed an agreement with HG to pass on all Macross rights to HG including the IP rights, what would happen to that contract once the Japanese courts rules that BW were the true holders of the IP.

Would the ruling be retroactive to cancel out anything contradicting in the original contract?

Would a Japanese ruling have any effect on a Contract written in America for an American company?

Gubaba Super Dimension Member

Gubaba

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I have a question regarding this whole copyright mess between BW and Tatsunoko.

Assuming Tatsunoko had signed an agreement with HG to pass on all Macross rights to HG including the IP rights, what would happen to that contract once the Japanese courts rules that BW were the true holders of the IP.

Would the ruling be retroactive to cancel out anything contradicting in the original contract?

Would a Japanese ruling have any effect on a Contract written in America for an American company?

That's the million dollar question, isn't it?

azrael Super Dimension Member

azrael

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Assuming Tatsunoko had signed an agreement with HG to pass on all Macross rights to HG including the IP rights, what would happen to that contract once the Japanese courts rules that BW were the true holders of the IP.

Define what you mean by "IP rights". Intellectual Property is divided into copyrights and industrial properties (ex. trademarks). Are you talking about the copyrights? Patents? Trademarks? Or something else?

What is Intellectual Property?

Did You Say “Intellectual Property”? It's a Seductive Mirage

macross_fan99 Destroid Armour Waxer

macross_fan99

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Define what you mean by "IP rights". Intellectual Property is divided into copyrights and industrial properties (ex. trademarks). Are you talking about the copyrights? Patents? Trademarks? Or something else?

What is Intellectual Property?

Did You Say “Intellectual Property”? It's a Seductive Mirage

From what I understand BW was given control of the IP which seems to mean the character and mech designs from the Original Macross series.

How would their having control of the characters and mech designs affect the contracts?

Seto Kaiba Super Dimension Member

Seto Kaiba

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Assuming Tatsunoko had signed an agreement with HG to pass on all Macross rights to HG including the IP rights, what would happen to that contract once the Japanese courts rules that BW were the true holders of the IP.

Really, this is an entirely needless assumption... none of the copyright confirmation lawsuits which rattled back and forth between Big West and Tatsunoko in the early 00's actually changed anything as far as rights to the original Macross series. All they really did was reaffirm the status quo... that Big West owns the intellectual property that they funded the creation of, and the franchise as a while, while Tatsunoko owns the physical animation they paid for and produced, and the rights they were given under contract (merchandising and distribution outside of Japan).

If we take the remarks made by Carl Macek in his Robocon 10 interview at face value, Harmony Gold always knew that they couldn't use the copyrighted character and mechanical designs from the original Macross series.

So really, any speculation on what would've happened if Tatsunoko had given Harmony Gold all rights to Macross is entirely needless... you can't sell what you don't own, and the courts have already weighed in on that matter with some force... Tatsunoko never had any legal claim on the intellectual property (characters, mecha, etc.) of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series because weren't involved in its creation in any way.

Would the ruling be retroactive to cancel out anything contradicting in the original contract?

Would a Japanese ruling have any effect on a Contract written in America for an American company?

As I've illustrated above, such an event could never come to pass because Tatsunoko never actually held those rights to begin with, and you can't legally sell or license something you don't own.

For the sake of argument... if Tatsunoko's lawyers had switched off their brains for some reason and allowed Tatsunoko to grant Harmony Gold ALL rights to Macross in their license agreement, the portions of that agreement concerning rights Tatsunoko did not own would essentially be null and void. Those portions of the contract simply wouldn't be in any way enforceable. Big West could (and likely would) sue Harmony Gold for copyright infringement, and no doubt Harmony Gold would've rounded on Tatsunoko with a great big "WTF GUYS!". The fun part is that, depending on how the licensing agreement was written, Harmony Gold could potentially turn around and sue Tatsunoko for contract fraud... and expect to win handily.

As I've already explained above, the rulings wouldn't have to retroactively cancel out anything, because the disposition of rights to the series didn't change... all that happened was both parties confirmed what rights they own.

Since the rulings concerned ownership of copyrights, the rulings of the Tokyo District, Appeals, and Supreme courts would be enforceable internationally under the host of treaties which make up the bulk of international copyright law. Had the court rulings changed the disposition of rights that Harmony Gold had originally acquired under license from Tatsunoko, Harmony Gold would've been affected by the rulings... but they didn't, so the whole point is moot.

How would their having control of the characters and mech designs affect the contracts?

It doesn't... the court rulings didn't actually change who owned what rights to the series.

Gubaba Super Dimension Member

Gubaba

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Let me get this straight. When I send them a photocopy of my arse, they actually end up owning my arse??

Taksraven

The photocopy, yes.

And if they decide to use it as the black hole that Rick Hunter falls into, then you can't demand any payment or credit for the use of your arse.

macross_fan99 Destroid Armour Waxer

macross_fan99

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Really, this is an entirely needless assumption... none of the copyright confirmation lawsuits which rattled back and forth between Big West and Tatsunoko in the early 00's actually changed anything as far as rights to the original Macross series. All they really did was reaffirm the status quo... that Big West owns the intellectual property that they funded the creation of, and the franchise as a while, while Tatsunoko owns the physical animation they paid for and produced, and the rights they were given under contract (merchandising and distribution outside of Japan).

If we take the remarks made by Carl Macek in his Robocon 10 interview at face value, Harmony Gold always knew that they couldn't use the copyrighted character and mechanical designs from the original Macross series.

So really, any speculation on what would've happened if Tatsunoko had given Harmony Gold all rights to Macross is entirely needless... you can't sell what you don't own, and the courts have already weighed in on that matter with some force... Tatsunoko never had any legal claim on the intellectual property (characters, mecha, etc.) of the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross series because weren't involved in its creation in any way.

As I've illustrated above, such an event could never come to pass because Tatsunoko never actually held those rights to begin with, and you can't legally sell or license something you don't own.

For the sake of argument... if Tatsunoko's lawyers had switched off their brains for some reason and allowed Tatsunoko to grant Harmony Gold ALL rights to Macross in their license agreement, the portions of that agreement concerning rights Tatsunoko did not own would essentially be null and void. Those portions of the contract simply wouldn't be in any way enforceable. Big West could (and likely would) sue Harmony Gold for copyright infringement, and no doubt Harmony Gold would've rounded on Tatsunoko with a great big "WTF GUYS!". The fun part is that, depending on how the licensing agreement was written, Harmony Gold could potentially turn around and sue Tatsunoko for contract fraud... and expect to win handily.

As I've already explained above, the rulings wouldn't have to retroactively cancel out anything, because the disposition of rights to the series didn't change... all that happened was both parties confirmed what rights they own.

Since the rulings concerned ownership of copyrights, the rulings of the Tokyo District, Appeals, and Supreme courts would be enforceable internationally under the host of treaties which make up the bulk of international copyright law. Had the court rulings changed the disposition of rights that Harmony Gold had originally acquired under license from Tatsunoko, Harmony Gold would've been affected by the rulings... but they didn't, so the whole point is moot.

It doesn't... the court rulings didn't actually change who owned what rights to the series.

If everything was all written out in the original contract then why did they need to go court again?

Was BW trying to reclaim their merchandising rights after having given them to Tatsunoko? All this started after HG stopped Yamato's Us branch from selling Macross toys correct?

Did BW think they could sell Macross toys alongside the Robotech toys and it turned out they couldn't?

There is also the speculation that HG can never use the original Macross designs in anything but merchandising, but is this a condition that was imposed from the beginning or is this what the recent lawsuits clarified?

Bri Bridge Bunny

Bri

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I have a question regarding this whole copyright mess between BW and Tatsunoko.

Assuming Tatsunoko had signed an agreement with HG to pass on all Macross rights to HG including the IP rights, what would happen to that contract once the Japanese courts rules that BW were the true holders of the IP.

Would the ruling be retroactive to cancel out anything contradicting in the original contract?

Would a Japanese ruling have any effect on a Contract written in America for an American company?

Seto pretty much explained everything but to expand on the issue:

HG can prevent the distribution of anything Macross outside of Japan trough the trademarks it acquired in the different anime markets outside Japan. The only realistic ways I can see that can change this are:

-Tatsunoko pulls HGs license and sells it to another party. Trademarks become invalid as HG can no longer sell Macross related material.

-HG goes out of business and no other party picks up the Tats license. Trademarks expire early.

-HG scraps everything Robotech and no longer renews license and trademarks/lets them expire early.

Bri Bridge Bunny

Bri

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If everything was all written out in the original contract then why did they need to go court again?

Afaik Tats sued BW over the right to make sequels to SDFM.

Was BW trying to reclaim their merchandising rights after having given them to Tatsunoko? All this started after HG stopped Yamato's Us branch from selling Macross toys correct?

No, to my knowledge BW has respected the original contract so far, the issue revolved around toys (YF 19) based on Macross Plus, a sequel to SDFM, which the contracts do not cover, Toycom was planning to distribute them states side.

Did BW think they could sell Macross toys alongside the Robotech toys and it turned out they couldn't?

Toys based on Macross sequels and the sequels themselves could be sold without issue until HG acquired the trademark on the name Macross. In theory any Macross toy can be sold in the US under another name without issue.

There is also the speculation that HG can never use the original Macross designs in anything but merchandising, but is this a condition that was imposed from the beginning or is this what the recent lawsuits clarified?

That is no speculation, BW/Nue announced that they own the designs based on copyright law. HG never had access to them other then for merchandise. Tats challenged the notion that BW/Nue owned the copyrights in court due to Tats role in the production process but were unsuccessful. Tats did get greater rights in distribution, afaik Tats gained distribution rights to SDFM in Japan from the court case.

Edited by Bri
macross_fan99 Destroid Armour Waxer

macross_fan99

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So the law suits were about Tatsunoko trying to get more control over Macross? They are the ones that started the law suits in an attempt to gain IP rights as well as Merchandising rights?

areaseven Super Dimension Member

areaseven

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Tatsunoko died when Tatsuo Yoshida died. Under the leadership of his brother Ippei Kuri, Tatsunoko is just a shell of itself. Majority of the post-Tatsuo era titles are stale and unoriginal, and it seems like the company want to milk whatever franchise they've worked on.

I'm surprised they haven't gone after GAINAX yet, as they did some of the animation production of Neon Genesis Evangelion.

taksraven SMS Squadron Leader

taksraven

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Tatsunoko died when Tatsuo Yoshida died. Under the leadership of his brother Ippei Kuri, Tatsunoko is just a shell of itself. Majority of the post-Tatsuo era titles are stale and unoriginal, and it seems like the company want to milk whatever franchise they've worked on.

I'm surprised they haven't gone after GAINAX yet, as they did some of the animation production of Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Did Tatsunoko make or just distribute Gatchaman?

azrael Super Dimension Member

azrael

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Afaik Tats sued BW over the right to make sequels to SDFM.

Tatsunoko sued Bandai (not BW) for restitution for distributing the Macross sequels (BW was name as Bandai's sponsor).

Tats did get greater rights in distribution, afaik Tats gained distribution rights to SDFM in Japan from the court case.

Not really. More like their status as lawful distributors of the SDFM was reaffirmed.

So the law suits were about Tatsunoko trying to get more control over Macross?

Kinda. When they sued Bandai, that's kinda what it boiled down to but as I said, they wanted restitution from Bandai's distribution of the Macross sequels. But since they never participated in those, hence, never put money into those projects, they don't get the money for those sales.

They are the ones that started the law suits in an attempt to gain IP rights as well as Merchandising rights?

Not quite. Big West sued Tatsunoko first for some unknown reason. After that cleared, Tatsunoko sued Bandai.

Again, you guys should really stop using the phrase "intellectual property" because it's terribly vague and probably the reason why no one understands this issue.

(Read these links: What is Intellectual Property? and Did You Say “Intellectual Property”? It's a Seductive Mirage)

taksraven SMS Squadron Leader

taksraven

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And if they decide to use it as the black hole that Rick Hunter falls into, then you can't demand any payment or credit for the use of your arse.

I was wondering why it felt itchy and violated lately........

Taksraven

Seto Kaiba Super Dimension Member

Seto Kaiba

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So the law suits were about Tatsunoko trying to get more control over Macross? They are the ones that started the law suits in an attempt to gain IP rights as well as Merchandising rights?

Instead of asking increasingly silly questions, you could consult the first post in the thread... which contains an adequate summary of the situation. As you could have ascertained from doing nothing more difficult than check Wikipedia, this all started because Harmony Gold started sending cease and desist letters to import toy dealers on the grounds that they'd somehow gotten it into their heads that the rights to the original Macross series they'd acquired from Tatsunoko as part of their original license agreement also extended to all of Macross's sequels. So, of course, this prompted the back-and-forth where Big West and Tatsunoko sued each other to confirm that they owned the rights they thought they owned. The end result was that nothing really changed... Big West and Studio Nue (joint parties) still owned the original material they'd created, and Tatsunoko owned the animation they'd produced and the rights they'd been given in their contract with Big West. Tatsunoko also went after Bandai to demand restitution for Big West and Bandai "profiting unfairly" from Tatsunoko's work on the original Macross series with their sequels... a demand the courts rejected in pretty short order.

As a result, the claims Harmony Gold had made about their license giving them rights to all of Macross were quickly invalidated, and they quickly turned to trademarking the Macross name and logo in the US, and acquiring the DYRL merchandising rights from Tatsunoko to block any goods and distribution licensing that might threaten the terminally ill Robotech franchise.

Edited by Seto Kaiba
areaseven Super Dimension Member

areaseven

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Did Tatsunoko make or just distribute Gatchaman?

Tatsuo Yoshida created Gatchaman, along with Mach Go! Go! Go! (Speed Racer), Casshern, Hurricane Polymar, Tekkaman, Time Bokan and Yatterman. The Gatchaman sequels were made after his death; hence the lackluster storylines and the fugly redesigns of the GodPhoenix.

Jasonc Galactic Diva

Jasonc

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That picture is...just so mind numbingly bad. I'm getting a headache just looking at it.

Is that pic supposed to be a rendition of real actors portraying Macross characters? If so, it's more reason why a LAM could = epic fail. Agreed on that being one of the ugliest pics I've seen of the characters. The art style isn't so bad though.

taksraven SMS Squadron Leader

taksraven

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Quoting a fugly photo = EPIC FAIL

Quoting ME = DOUBLEPLUSUNGOOD FAIL!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

Taksraven

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