Gubaba Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 I've read in one of the Letters colomn in one of the Eternity comics (I can't remember which one, and I'm not going to go through them) that Carl Macek thought that End of the Circle was a full 180 to his vision of the franchise. His vision was basicly what was penned in Art 3, train wreck that that story was. If you can find which one and scan it or something, that'd be great. No offense intended, but I think we can both agree that, um, you're not a terribly reliable source.
taksraven Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 If you can find which one and scan it or something, that'd be great. No offense intended, but I think we can both agree that, um, you're not a terribly reliable source. MEEEEEE-OOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!! :lol: :lol: Taksraven
Gubaba Posted January 16, 2010 Posted January 16, 2010 MEEEEEE-OOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!! :lol: :lol: Taksraven Again, I'm not trying to be mean. It's just that Wanzerfan's posts are inaccurate often enough that he should probably show some proof if he expects to be believed.
Gubaba Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) Got some independent corroboration, and a scan. Looks like Wanzerfan's actually RIGHT! (And I'm properly ashamed.) EDIT: Here it is, if anyone's interested: Edited January 17, 2010 by Gubaba
taksraven Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Got some independent corroboration, and a scan. Looks like Wanzerfan's actually RIGHT! (And I'm properly ashamed.) You'll turn us into Wikipedia yet! :lol: Taksraven
Seto Kaiba Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Got some independent corroboration, and a scan. Looks like Wanzerfan's actually RIGHT! But what's REALLY interesting is who wrote the letter... McKeever.
Einherjar Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 But what's REALLY interesting is who wrote the letter... McKeever. It might be just a coincidence. http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:FTSfp...lient=firefox-a
HappyPenguins Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 But what's REALLY interesting is who wrote the letter... McKeever. I was just gonna say...
hulagu Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 I've read in one of the Letters colomn in one of the Eternity comics (I can't remember which one, and I'm not going to go through them) that Carl Macek thought that End of the Circle was a full 180 to his vision of the franchise. His vision was basicly what was penned in Art 3, train wreck that that story was. I'm just morbidly curious, how did things turn out differently from End of the Circle in Carl Macek's original vision in Robotech Art 3?
terry the lone wolf Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 New Carl Macek interview: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/anncast/2010-01-14
Einherjar Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) I've heard various contradictory stories, mostly from Robotech fans who seem to be arguing strenuously for whatever version of Robotech's history they feel is the least unfortunate. (IE, don't like the "thinking caps" or the "shapings"? Apparently, that's all McKinney! Carl Macek had nothing to do with it! On the other hand, if you want to think that Carl Macek is a "visionary," I've heard that he specifically came up with the concepts of thinking caps and the shapings and wanted to put them in the show, but he was "limited by what was shown in the animation.") Hmm, I'll go a little bit further then; the Robotech Macross Saga novels and the SDF Macross Novels. Does anyone know how the quality fares between them? Edited January 17, 2010 by Einherjar
Gubaba Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Hmm, I'll go a little bit further then; the Robotech Macross Saga novels and the SDF Macross Novels. Does anyone know how the quality fares between them? Well, I never liked them, but for reasons unconnected to their literary quality. Being a kid, I for some reason thought that because I wanted to learn more about the original series, the novels would somehow magically provide that. Instead, I got something that tried to bind the three series even closer together. You could've gotten the greatest writer in the world to write them, and I probably wouldn't have liked them. For reasons I can't recall, though, I did read all of them (well, up to End of the Circle, anyway...I never read the three books after that). Anyway, there's A LOT of added material in them, from the epigrams that starts each chapter, to the thinking caps, to the enhanced role for Dr. Lang (and others). I think the divisions between books are rather haphazard in a way (each of the Macross Saga books covers six episodes, regardless of the specific ebbings and flowings of the plot...most people, for example, would think of episode 27 as a good ending place for a book, and 28 as a good beginning for the next, but Book 5 covers 24-30). I'll admit that they're probably more satisfying than the Japanese Macross TV novelization. First, because they're longer (Macross is three books, Macross Saga is six); second, because the Robotech novels are fuller. The Macross books are pretty bare-bones, with very few added scenes...in fact, a lot gets cut out of them. I don't remember the Masters books very well...most of what I recall is the ending of the story, which has a rather large section tacked on with Dr. Zand attacking Dana (and getting turned into a Flower of Life), Dana kissing Angelo, and a whole lot of set-up for Robotech III: The Odyssey. The New Gen books I remember almost nothing about, except for the way the writers tried to deal with the episodic nature of Mospeada. As I recall, each episode was covered in two or three chapters. And the chapter that covered the end of one chapter would also include the beginning of the next. It seemed like a clumsy and artificial way to try to stitch the story together. A better solution, I think, would've been to embrace the episodic format and write them as picaresque novels. Or else they could've introduced more material between each episode, to show the evolving thoughts of the heroes...so that way, if there's little plot continuity, at least there'd be character continuity. Again, I think the Macross Saga books are the best of the bunch, but that's because Macross is a better story than Southern Cross or Mospeada (arguably, of course). I don't think there's a whole lot there for Macross Purists to enjoy, however.
Bri Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 New Carl Macek interview: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/anncast/2010-01-14 There are some interesting parts: Accoring to Macek, HG was not allowed to use the name Macross from the original licensing agreement. Also according to him HG had no interest in anime at all untill the original videotape with four dubbed episodes of Macross sold between 25,000 and 40,000 copies at 40$ a piece. Robotech was orinigally not aimed at the kids market, that happened by the networks, the early advertisement had been done trough heavy metal magazine. The guy is pretty arrogant about his own "contributions".
Einherjar Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Anyway, there's A LOT of added material in them, from the epigrams that starts each chapter, to the thinking caps, to the enhanced role for Dr. Lang (and others). I think the divisions between books are rather haphazard in a way (each of the Macross Saga books covers six episodes, regardless of the specific ebbings and flowings of the plot...most people, for example, would think of episode 27 as a good ending place for a book, and 28 as a good beginning for the next, but Book 5 covers 24-30). I'll admit that they're probably more satisfying than the Japanese Macross TV novelization. First, because they're longer (Macross is three books, Macross Saga is six); second, because the Robotech novels are fuller. The Macross books are pretty bare-bones, with very few added scenes...in fact, a lot gets cut out of them. Yeah, the Protoculture Times started talking about the novels, as well as highlighting some very surprising quotes from the first couple of books so far.
hulagu Posted January 17, 2010 Posted January 17, 2010 Well, I never liked them, but for reasons unconnected to their literary quality. Being a kid, I for some reason thought that because I wanted to learn more about the original series, the novels would somehow magically provide that. Instead, I got something that tried to bind the three series even closer together. You could've gotten the greatest writer in the world to write them, and I probably wouldn't have liked them. For reasons I can't recall, though, I did read all of them (well, up to End of the Circle, anyway...I never read the three books after that). There were books after End of the Circle? Is it that Zentraedi Malcontent Uprising stuff?
Gubaba Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 There were books after End of the Circle? Is it that Zentraedi Malcontent Uprising stuff? Yeah. Zentradi Rebellion, Masters' Gambit, and Before the Invid Storm.
Einherjar Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Yeah. Zentradi Rebellion, Masters' Gambit, and Before the Invid Storm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robotech_%28n...29#Bibliography
taksraven Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Yeah. Zentradi Rebellion, Masters' Gambit, and Before the Invid Storm. So even though they were written after The End of the Circle, they were set before this novel. In other words there has been nothing after The End of the Circle? Taksraven
Gubaba Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 So even though they were written after The End of the Circle, they were set before this novel. In other words there has been nothing after The End of the Circle? Taksraven Of course there has. Book 1 of the Macross Saga comes after End of the Circle.
taksraven Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) Of course there has. Book 1 of the Macross Saga comes after End of the Circle. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Taksraven Edited January 18, 2010 by taksraven
Gubaba Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Taksraven No, really. The whole thing ends with a time loop. When your ending takes you back to the beginning, how do you write a further sequel?
hulagu Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) No, really. The whole thing ends with a time loop. When your ending takes you back to the beginning, how do you write a further sequel? Does it really? I know that was the intent from CM's original vision, but I'm not sure EoTC actually went that route. All I remember of the surreal ending is a knocked up Minmei singing to Haydon in weirdspace or something. How different is Sentinels and EoTC from the plot outline in Robotech Art 3 anyway? Edited January 18, 2010 by hulagu
VFTF1 Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 No, really. The whole thing ends with a time loop. When your ending takes you back to the beginning, how do you write a further sequel? That's easy. You do your homework together with your friends. Pete
Gubaba Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Does it really? I know that was the intent from CM's original vision, but I'm not sure EoTC actually went that route. All I remember of the surreal ending is a knocked up Minmei singing to Haydon in weirdspace or something. Where she ended up with Rem and became Zor's mother. Seriously...that's the ONLY thing I remember from that book. How different is Sentinels and EoTC from the plot outline in Robotech Art 3 anyway? I haven't seen Robotech Art 3, so I wouldn't know. But I think End of the Circle was stuff that was meant to be in Robotech III: The Odyssey, so Art 3 probably didn't cover it.
taksraven Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 No, really. The whole thing ends with a time loop. When your ending takes you back to the beginning, how do you write a further sequel? I did know that. Rick and Lisa have a kid called Zor or something like that, isn't it?? Taksraven
hulagu Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) Of course there has. Book 1 of the Macross Saga comes after End of the Circle. Oh yeah, I remember another time loop. It turns out that the ones responsible for SDF-1's disappearing protoculture (fold) drive way back when was the SDF-3. They swiped the thing from the past to get out of the weirdspace. Edited January 18, 2010 by hulagu
hulagu Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) Where she ended up with Rem and became Zor's mother. Seriously...that's the ONLY thing I remember from that book. Isn't Rem a Zor clone himself? That's one screwed up family tree right there. I did know that. Rick and Lisa have a kid called Zor or something like that, isn't it?? Taksraven That's Roy. One letter off and spelt backwards. Surely, a meaningful portent of great import. Edited January 18, 2010 by hulagu
Wanzerfan Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Got some independent corroboration, and a scan. Looks like Wanzerfan's actually RIGHT! (And I'm properly ashamed.) EDIT: Here it is, if anyone's interested: Kevin Mekeever??? I'm just morbidly curious, how did things turn out differently from End of the Circle in Carl Macek's original vision in Robotech Art 3?Well in Maceks original vision, Rem and Janice were to travel back in time to undo all the things that the original Zor did. Needless to say, Rem's plan fails spetacularly. Robotech Art 3 covers everything related to The Sentinels television series, including a detailed synopsis of the unused scripts, as well as character and mecha production sketches.
Seto Kaiba Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Isn't Rem a Zor clone himself? That's one screwed up family tree right there. Yeah, Rem is just one member of the modest legion of Zor clones who seem to come out of the woodwork whenever the story needs a technological deus ex machina or just someone with a logorrhea-like compulsion to recite vast quantities of inane technobabble to cover for weak writing or a plot hole/twist the writers couldn't figure out a way to fix. Amusingly, it isn't a cop-out limited to Luceno, Daley, and the Waltrips anymore. The leaked draft of the "Shadow Saga" plot synopsis includes yet another Zor clone, whose grand plan to save his homeworld from the Haydonite menace is to... wait for it... build a really big cannon! Clearly, this is the work of the razor-sharp intellect of robotechnology's creator, a man whose all-too-frequent tendency to take drastic action without thinking things through seems to be the root of all the universe's evils.
VFTF1 Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Sounds like a repeat of Macross' Grand Cannon... In any event - I would be interested to discover how many people who were fans of the Macross Saga back in 84 are NOW huge Robotech fans waiting with baited breath for RLAM or Shadow Rising... and how many of those people are now Macross "purists." Back in the 80s - I didn't know Macross existed. I did like Robotech role playing games and thought the novels I read were nifty. Under the circumstances (no knowledge of Macross existing), I would have qualified myself as being a Robotech fan back then. My love for Robotech was marginal - no where near as HUGE as my love of Transformers. For me, Robotech was just another interesting cartoon, with a slightly more mature and realistic bent. But now... Who really cares what they think up? Who really gives a frak about the Zor clone or anything else? I think most Robotech fans my age who were in a similar predicament to me are now just Macross fans. Pete
Moly_Sigang Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Yeah, Rem is just one member of the modest legion of Zor clones who seem to come out of the woodwork whenever the story needs a technological deus ex machina or just someone with a logorrhea-like compulsion to recite vast quantities of inane technobabble to cover for weak writing or a plot hole/twist the writers couldn't figure out a way to fix. Amusingly, it isn't a cop-out limited to Luceno, Daley, and the Waltrips anymore. The leaked draft of the "Shadow Saga" plot synopsis includes yet another Zor clone, whose grand plan to save his homeworld from the Haydonite menace is to... wait for it... build a really big cannon! Clearly, this is the work of the razor-sharp intellect of robotechnology's creator, a man whose all-too-frequent tendency to take drastic action without thinking things through seems to be the root of all the universe's evils. Funny if the biggest plot twist of the Shadow Saga is revealed that: the Original Zor is the final boss of the entire series. Basically, he did not die, but became the Awareness who hated Protoculture and all those who uses it. The ending would involve the REF fighting against thousands of suicidal Zor clones in their Bioroids indiscriminately kamikazi'ing everything in sight.
Funkenstein Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 Funny if the biggest plot twist of the Shadow Saga is revealed that: the Original Zor is the final boss of the entire series. Basically, he did not die, but became the Awareness who hated Protoculture and all those who uses it. The ending would involve the REF fighting against thousands of suicidal Zor clones in their Bioroids indiscriminately kamikazi'ing everything in sight. Was the script written before or after Gundam 00 ?
Wanzerfan Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 (edited) I just realized how arrogant Mr. McKeever is. Get a load of the rank he gave himself in the thumbnail Gubaba provided. Edited January 18, 2010 by Wanzerfan
Einherjar Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I just realized how arrogant Mr. McKeever is. Get a load of the rank he gave himself in the thumbnail Gubaba provided. No. http://www.google.com/search?q=%22dmc+Mcke...lient=firefox-a
Gubaba Posted January 18, 2010 Posted January 18, 2010 I just realized how arrogant Mr. McKeever is. Get a load of the rank he gave himself in the thumbnail Gubaba provided. According to First Border Red Devil, it's not Kevin McKeever. Admiral McKeever is unrelated.
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