HG and Robotech Debates

[RedWolf]

I have a question though. When does HG's trademark on Macross expire? Maybe if Big West is willy enough they get it this time.

[taksraven]

I have a question though. When does HG's trademark on Macross expire? Maybe if Big West is willy enough they get it this time.

Wondered about that myself. Sandy Franks copyright on BOTP/Gatchaman has ended so technically, no more BOTP legally available. (Still ok to sell old stock though it would seem)

So is HG/WB racing the clock on this??

Taksraven

[Ghost Train]

Trademarks last indefinitely and can be renewed from now to infinity.

Copyrights last for "too long" or the death of the original author, whichever comes first.

None of the two I think apply quite accurately to RT's gray zone >_> .

[azrael]

As stated, trademarks can last forever... at 10-year intervals. But, one must maintain the trademark in order to keep it. This is to prevent abuse and other possible misgivings to the system.

(The detailed documentation can be found at the Patent and Trademark Office website)

1) You must file a Declaration of Use (or Excusable Non-use) between the 5th and 6th year from the original registration date. This ensures that the mark will be maintained during that 10-year period.

2) You must file a Declaration of Use (or Excusable Non-use) AND Application for Renewal between the 9th and 10th from the original registration date.

And as my research into the matter already yielded (so don't bother asking), USA trademarks are not governed by 1st registration (BW would win that one), but by 1st usage (HG wins that one).

[Gubaba]

As stated, trademarks can last forever... at 10-year intervals. But, one must maintain the trademark in order to keep it. This is to prevent abuse and other possible misgivings to the system.

(The detailed documentation can be found at the Patent and Trademark Office website)

1) You must file a Declaration of Use (or Excusable Non-use) between the 5th and 6th year from the original registration date. This ensures that the mark will be maintained during that 10-year period.

2) You must file a Declaration of Use (or Excusable Non-use) AND Application for Renewal between the 9th and 10th from the original registration date.

And as my research into the matter already yielded (so don't bother asking), USA trademarks are not governed by 1st registration (BW would win that one), but by 1st usage (HG wins that one).

So if I get permission to bring a DVD of, I dunno, Zardoz to some country where it has never been shown, and I show it publicly...then I can claim trademark to Zardoz in that country? Cool.

[BeyondTheGrave]

So if I get permission to bring a DVD of, I dunno, Zardoz to some country where it has never been shown, and I show it publicly...then I can claim trademark to Zardoz in that country? Cool.

At least pick something good.

[Vostok 7]

no it wasn't

it was a retextured Tomahawk

Oh really?

That ain't a Tomahawk, at least not one I've ever seen. Similar, maybe. But not a Tomahawk. Not an original Warhammer by any means. Unless you saw a different trailer?

[Seto Kaiba]

Oh really?

Yes, really.

That ain't a Tomahawk, at least not one I've ever seen. Similar, maybe. But not a Tomahawk. Not an original Warhammer by any means. Unless you saw a different trailer?

Granted, it's not a direct lift of Macross's Tomahawk destroid design anymore. All the same, the redesigned Warhammer depicted in the game trailer is still a design clearly and recognizably derived from that of Tomahawk destroid. Simply changing a few minor details of someone else's copyrighted design isn't enough to make it an original work. As Harmony Gold has, under license, the exclusive right to produce merchandise based on the original Macross TV series and the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie outside of Japan, and video games are technically merchandise, Harmony Gold had every right to send cease and desist letters to the publisher and developer demanding the removal of the offending material from the game.

In this rare instance, Harmony Gold was entirely in the right and was doing what any company in that position should have done. If anyone's at fault, it's the former owners of the BattleTech and MechWarrior franchise, who reportedly failed to inform the company who purchased the franchise (Catalyst Game Labs) of the details of the settlement in Harmony Gold v. FASA and the constraints it imposed.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Moly_Sigang]

Granted, it's not a direct lift of Macross's Tomahawk destroid design anymore. All the same, the redesigned Warhammer depicted in the game trailer is still a design clearly and recognizably derived from that of Tomahawk destroid. Simply changing a few minor details of someone else's copyrighted design isn't enough to make it an original work. As Harmony Gold has, under license, the exclusive right to produce merchandise based on the original Macross TV series and the Macross: Do You Remember Love? movie outside of Japan, and video games are technically merchandise, Harmony Gold had every right to send cease and desist letters to the publisher and developer demanding the removal of the offending material from the game.

In this rare instance, Harmony Gold was entirely in the right and was doing what any company in that position should have done. If anyone's at fault, it's the former owners of the BattleTech and MechWarrior franchise, who reportedly failed to inform the company who purchased the franchise (Catalyst Game Labs) of the details of the settlement in Harmony Gold v. FASA and the constraints it imposed.

Isn't the head of Smith & Tinker a former employee of FASA? He should at least have knowledge of the previous lawsuit which forced FASA to abandon the mecha designs derived from Macross/Robotech. Also he should have realized by now how much of a j@ck@$$ HG is when it comes to 'protecting their property', he really had this coming.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[Seto Kaiba]

Isn't the head of Smith & Tinker a former employee of FASA? He should at least have knowledge of the previous lawsuit which forced FASA to abandon the mecha designs derived from Macross/Robotech.

Yes, Smith & Tinker founder Jordan Weisman also co-founded FASA. How involved he was with its day-to-day operation and the events surrounding Harmony Gold v. FASA, we don't know. It does seem odd that he wouldn't have informed his licensees of the constraints, but then again the terms of the settlement in Harmony Gold v. FASA were kept confidentation, as confirmed by Catalyst Game Labs. Catalyst thought they'd found some kind of legal loophole, but apparently it didn't pan out. It's possible that Piranha Games went through a similar situation.

Either way, what they did was a clear violation of Harmony Gold's exclusive right to develop and produce merchandise based on the original Macross series for sale outside of Japan, and it looks like both Catalyst and Piranha had an "Oh poo" moment when the cease and desist notices brought it to their attention.

[Bri]

So if I get permission to bring a DVD of, I dunno, Zardoz to some country where it has never been shown, and I show it publicly...then I can claim trademark to Zardoz in that country? Cool.

Only if that country is the USA. As Azrael said the US trademark system has a peculiarity that it counts first usage of a name/symbol (and you'd still need to use it in a commercial sense as in sell Zardoz DVDs in your example). Other countries, at least the ones we looked at in regard to the Macross trademark, have a first registration rule.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Bri

[VF5SS]

Oh really?

are all battletech fans such blind fanboys?

Yes really. It's not skinny like the Project Phoenix design and it's at the same time deliberately incorporates the proportions from the original Tomahawk and a lot of particular details.

[Wanzerfan]

Well, now we come back to Zinjo's question:

You don't sue someone without provocation. Something started this and it probably involves Tatsunoko's side of things somewhere in the mess.

I also sense somewhere Carl Macek pulling some of this web's strands.

[Gubaba]

I also sense somewhere Carl Macek pulling some of this web's strands.

Carl Macek wasn't with Harmony Gold when the ball got rolling.

[Wanzerfan]

Carl Macek wasn't with Harmony Gold when the ball got rolling.

Maybe not, but he was on good relatons with the company, so that would make the suppositon even more insidious.

[Freiflug88]

So is HG/WB racing the clock on this??

Taksraven

Even if HG lost there trademarks to Macross today Warner Bros would still have all the movie rights to Robotech which they purchased from HG 3 years ago. Just look at Fox's plan to keep remaking Fantastic Four so they can keep its movie rights to themselves and away from Disney. Of course we all know WB's pretty much screwed with zero Macross and Southern Cross rights from Big West in the first place. Come to think of it maybe WB never even got Mosepeda. I know that for the Speed Racer flick the Wachowski brothers had to go straight to Tatsunko for permission to use Mach Go Go Go and just ignored the US compay "Speed Racer Enterprise" that owns the rights to the original anime show in the US. In Robotech's case though I have yet to hear or see anything about WB ever dealing with Tatsunko directly.

[Gubaba]

Maybe not, but he was on good relatons with the company, so that would make the suppositon even more insidious.

He was? I believe he was working for ADV at the time...as such, Harmony Gold would be a rival company, no?

[Freiflug88]

I also sense somewhere Carl Macek pulling some of this web's strands.

Question: "I am the conspiracy theorist and even I don't see anything."

..as such, Harmony Gold would be a rival company, no?

Ever notice all those ADV logos on HG DVDs like Robotech, Macross, Southern Cross, Mosepeda, and Megazone 23? ADV and HG weren't exactly direct compeitors. Harmony Gold specializes in trading movies, shows, and real estate while ADV was a dubber and distributor of anime.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Freiflug88

[azrael]

Sorry, missed this one.

Are battles over ownership and rights very common in anime in general? I know that there was some issues over the ownership of Space Cruiser Yamato but I was wondering if it was a problem on any sort of larger scale?

I haven't seen too many involving newer works, but the older ones (1970s-1980s) seem to be where there was some legal trouble (considering the amount of time that's passed, it's no wonder). With Yamato, Yoshinobu Nishizaki is the actual creator of the series while Leiji Matsumoto's designs were what carried it forth (which is why he's mis-credited as the creator). So Nishizaki can use the name "Yamato" but can never use the artwork. For Matsumoto, he can use the artwork, but not the name, plot or characters (i.e. he can use the artwork of Susumu Kodai, but he can't call him "Susumu Kodai") from Yamato.

[waters7]

Are battles over ownership and rights very common in anime in general? I know that there was some issues over the ownership of Space Cruiser Yamato but I was wondering if it was a problem on any sort of larger scale?

Candy Candy is another property that went thru something similar.

You can find more info here

[Einherjar]

I haven't seen too many involving newer works, but the older ones (1970s-1980s) seem to be where there was some legal trouble (considering the amount of time that's passed, it's no wonder). With Yamato, Yoshinobu Nishizaki is the actual creator of the series while Leiji Matsumoto's designs were what carried it forth (which is why he's mis-credited as the creator). So Nishizaki can use the name "Yamato" but can never use the artwork. For Matsumoto, he can use the artwork, but not the name, plot or characters (i.e. he can use the artwork of Susumu Kodai, but he can't call him "Susumu Kodai") from Yamato.

I find it funny that here, it's a conflict between different companies and not individuals. From a fan's perspective, it weakens HG's position even if they take the legal route. No one in the company made the material, let alone have the ability to draw characters or mechanical designs until the 2000s, and can't do much except direct to DVD movies. They commission other, non-affiliated groups to make stuff happen.

[taksraven]

At least pick something good.

He did.... At least it wasn't Stealth.

Taksraven

[Beltane70]

Ugh, they've made McKeever one of the guests of honor at this year's Anime Next.

[Jasonc]

Ugh, they've made McKeever one of the guests of honor at this year's Anime Next.

That con must really be hurting then. What I've been curious to know is if HG is planning on renewing the license with Tatsunoko? With the popularity of the Macross series, I wonder if Tatsunoko is charging a higher premium for SDF:Macross, even though it's 28 years old? I also wonder if the cost of retaining the license to Macross is still generating enough profit for HG to keep it going? Are they trying that desperately to get rid of Macross? If so, I wonder if they'll in fact, renew the license whenever that comes up. I dunno, just virtually thinking out loud.

[Gubaba]

That con must really be hurting then. What I've been curious to know is if HG is planning on renewing the license with Tatsunoko? With the popularity of the Macross series, I wonder if Tatsunoko is charging a higher premium for SDF:Macross, even though it's 28 years old? I also wonder if the cost of retaining the license to Macross is still generating enough profit for HG to keep it going? Are they trying that desperately to get rid of Macross? If so, I wonder if they'll in fact, renew the license whenever that comes up. I dunno, just virtually thinking out loud.

Stpp teasing us with stuff like that!

[Beltane70]

I wouldn't say that the con is hurting, it's always been a small, fairly local convention. I'm guessing that since they only mention McKeever, the rest of the Robotech tour isn't stopping there.

Looks like I'm not stopping there, either, as I just noticed that the con conflicts with another event I plan to attend on the opposite side of the country.

[Einherjar]

Remind me, what has Kevin McKeever done beyond Robotech to make his guest of honor spot actually mean something? I'd ask the same question from anyone from HG who got the same recognition.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Einherjar

[Zinjo]

It's becoming painfully clear that HG is out for one thing: Money. Not the fans, certainly not the fans. They just want money.

Instead of trying to work with people like this for both to benefit financially AND placate the fans, they just stomp and sue. Stomp and sue. Battletech is another great example of this, especially the most recent wranglings they've been having over the unseens reseen and then unseen again and MechWarrior 5. It's ridiculous that they just can't come to an agreement. Instead of finding a way to make everyone happy, they either just C&D and sue, or they demand completely unreasonable licensing fees.

What they are losing out on is the crossover fans. I wouldn't know much about Macross or Robotech if it wasn't for Battletech, and that exposure made me a fan. By HG C&D-ing and suing everything they can find that potentially crosses their trademarks (The big battle they had over MechWarrior 5 was over a Warhammer shown in the game trailer that was actually the redesigned Warhammer, NOT the original Macross design (Tomahawk). The redesigns of the originally Macross (and other Anime mechs that were lost in the original power struggles) just look somewhat similar so that continuity could be kept in the game world. HG got their panties in a bunch over it anyway ), all they are doing is alienating everyone but the die-hard life-long Robotech fans who think they can do no wrong. Battletech fans are bitter, Macross fans are bitter, etc. etc.

In the long run they are shooting themselves in the foot. I'm reminded of Aesop's fable, The Dog and the Bone: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dog_and_the_Bone

Sorry if this all has been covered, I'm just rambling because I've been thinking about this lately.

HG is only out for money... WOW! Ask any sincere old school RT fan and you'll hear that in spades!

Now lets take this in perspective, the Agrama family has made a very very comfortable living buying licenses for other companys' work and selling it to distributors in the US. Creative integrity was never a consideration, only what would sell to whoever would buy it. When you have that business philosophy you don't see any merit in crossover monetary gains or any long term business strategy. Cooperation is not an option.

I'd expect that this lack of strategy is why RT sat largely dormant for over a decade. So long as obsequious toadies like Memo and his type continue to exist, HG will continue to sell recycled products over and over to the ravenously hungry masses in the RT fanbase.

[taksraven]

HG is only out for money... WOW! Ask any sincere old school RT fan and you'll hear that in spades!

Now lets take this in perspective, the Agrama family has made a very very comfortable living buying licenses for other companys' work and selling it to distributors in the US. Creative integrity was never a consideration, only what would sell to whoever would buy it. When you have that business philosophy you don't see any merit in crossover monetary gains or any long term business strategy. Cooperation is not an option.

I'd expect that this lack of strategy is why RT sat largely dormant for over a decade. So long as obsequious toadies like Memo and his type continue to exist, HG will continue to sell recycled products over and over to the ravenously hungry masses in the RT fanbase.

Shaka ZULU!!!!

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

Remind me, what has Kevin McKeever done beyond Robotech to make his guest of honor spot actually mean something? I'd ask the same question from anyone from HG who got the same recognition.

To be honest... he hasn't done anything to deserve that guest of honor spot.

Outside of his brief tenure as marketing coordinator for Harmony Gold's Robotech franchise, McKeever doesn't have any actual experience working in the anime industry. He definitely doesn't have any credentials or accolades that'd make him a person of interest for convention-goers at Anime Next. It's a pretty safe bet that the convention organizers wanted Tommy Yune, but he couldn't be arsed to go to a convention that wasn't a major stop on the tour and sent his coffee boy instead.

(Just in case you were wondering, McKeever seems to fit the usual Harmony Gold staffer mold in that he's almost totally unqualified for the position he holds. In terms of his qualifications, he has a BFA in Lighting Design from Emerson College, and the most notorious titles in his production credits are Jackass, Kids Say the Darndest Things, and Billy Frankenstein. He also claims to have some experience in theater production, though he doesn't list the titles... only the venues, none of which are particularly impressive. In particular, he seems extremely proud of his work on Jackass, which as most would agree is nothing to be proud of.)

[Bri]

That con must really be hurting then. What I've been curious to know is if HG is planning on renewing the license with Tatsunoko? With the popularity of the Macross series, I wonder if Tatsunoko is charging a higher premium for SDF:Macross, even though it's 28 years old? I also wonder if the cost of retaining the license to Macross is still generating enough profit for HG to keep it going? Are they trying that desperately to get rid of Macross? If so, I wonder if they'll in fact, renew the license whenever that comes up. I dunno, just virtually thinking out loud.

Since HG renewed several of their trademarks last year I don't think their relationship is going to end soon. Why else would HG spend several thousands of USD if they would not be sure about their agreement with Tats?

[Seto Kaiba]

Since HG renewed several of their trademarks last year I don't think their relationship is going to end soon. Why else would HG spend several thousands of USD if they would not be sure about their agreement with Tats?

Not just that, but back around 2001-2002 Harmony Gold went back to Tatsunoko and acquired the merchandising rights to DYRL. Since Macross is pretty much the only part of Robotech that sells, and they've gone to so much trouble in their quest to keep Japanese Macross products out of the hands of American fans, it's highly unlikely that Harmony Gold would terminate their relationship with Tatsunoko. Of course, we could say the same solely on the basis that their future development plans for the Robotech animated series require the use of intellectual property from Genesis Climber Mospeada, which is owned by Tatsunoko.

[taksraven]

on the basis that their future development plans for the Robotech animated series

Yeah, those plans GO OFF!!!! :lol:

Taksraven

[Robelwell202]

Not just that, but back around 2001-2002 Harmony Gold went back to Tatsunoko and acquired the merchandising rights to DYRL. Since Macross is pretty much the only part of Robotech that sells, and they've gone to so much trouble in their quest to keep Japanese Macross products out of the hands of American fans, it's highly unlikely that Harmony Gold would terminate their relationship with Tatsunoko. Of course, we could say the same solely on the basis that their future development plans for the Robotech animated series require the use of intellectual property from Genesis Climber Mospeada, which is owned by Tatsunoko.

Gotta take the good with the bad, huh?

[Einherjar]

Gotta take the good with the bad, huh?

What good? If the money they make isn't used for the costs of new toys and etc., it may be going to Tatsunoko. Can't even make a sequel to anything with that arrangement, which IS what everyone wants from Robotech these days.

Edited March 28, 2010 by Einherjar