HG and Robotech Debates

[taksraven]

I was just reading Gubaba's account of Mari Iijima playing a show in L.A. the other day. Its a wonder that HG doesn't show up and try to slap a "cease and desist" on her for doing a Macross song. (Even though its not in Robotech.)

(edit, I hope that she had decent security since I am sure that she would be a prime target for the "Death to Macross Purists" losers)

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe HG will end up doing the same thing with MEMO once his project stops being just talk over the years.

Eh, what makes you think they haven't already done so? This is MEMO we're talking about... there's a very real possibility they already snubbed his project and he was either too busy sucking up to Tommy to notice or too dense to realize that he got shot down. Either way, the odds of his "Robotech Codex" ever actually getting published are virtually nil, since he just doesn't know enough about Robotech to participate in any meaningful way in the franchise's official forums, let alone write a book. Even with help he's up poo creek without a paddle... his one avowed helper is none Doug Bendo(ver), who, if anything, knows even less about Robotech than MEMO does and just wants to impose his own views on the show and have them mistaken for canon.

It really is a shame... if this project wasn't completely doomed from the get-go and was left in the hands of someone halfway capable, it could probably easily eclipse Art of the Shadow Chronicles, which is why it'll probably never see daylight.

That is just so... sad. I checked the link (http://www.aodsf.org/aod/robotech/) and it's amazing Carl Macek has nothing better to do.

With a reputation like his it's amazing he has anything to do at all.

[Einherjar]

It really is a shame... if this project wasn't completely doomed from the get-go and was left in the hands of someone halfway capable, it could probably easily eclipse Art of the Shadow Chronicles, which is why it'll probably never see daylight.

Actually, with everything he's said he wanted to include in the Codex, I don't think it would work out legally at all. HG would playfully discourage it at first, then act on it once real money and progress have been put into it. But we all know everything that comes from him is mostly talk; it rarely amounts to anything beyond paying for a convention booth and appearances on someone's convention panel for doing... what exactly?

Edited January 13, 2010 by Einherjar

[Funkenstein]

This has been burning me up...

How long before HG licenses Astro Plan?

[hulagu]

This has been burning me up...

How long before HG licenses Astro Plan?

Never? Although at some point I suppose they may use this to claim that Valkyrie designs and modes are generic and therefore non-infringing when the time comes for them to push out VF-1 clones for the LAM.

Edited January 14, 2010 by hulagu

[taksraven]

I wonder if HG has ever tried to stop Amazon from selling Macross products in the US though its Japanese website. (There is a good amount of Macross Frontier stuff on the American website too.)

Taksraven

[Jasonc]

I wonder if HG has ever tried to stop Amazon from selling Macross products in the US though its Japanese website. (There is a good amount of Macross Frontier stuff on the American website too.)

Taksraven

I don't think they'd be able to. The flow of Macross products moves so much, I think it'd take all the money they have to make it a possibility.

[Wanzerfan]

I don't think they'd be able to. The flow of Macross products moves so much, I think it'd take all the money they have to make it a possibility.

Which would finally make them finacially bankrupt.

[Gubaba]

Which would finally make them finacially bankrupt.

[VFTF1]

This Captain Obvious Meme has been doing the rounds, and I always wondered.... if Captain Obvious is the hero...then who is his arche nemesis? Turns out the guy is named, not surprisngly, Dr. Subtlety. Also turns out Captain Obvious has some helpers in the form of Blatancy Boy (who points out the Obvious) and his wise mentor Mr. Literal.

Very intricate universe and would make for a supremely good comic book: http://chellon.deviantart.com/art/Captain-...Poster-95528231

In any case - it's more thought out than the Robotech universe

Pete

Edited January 14, 2010 by VFTF1

[Robelwell202]

In any case - it's more thought out than the Robotech universe

Pete

Well, in my rather limited research of things, the only thing I've found that isn't as well-thought-out as the RT universe is 'Plan Nine from Outer Space'...

But, I could be wrong.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Robelwell202

[hutch]

if Captain Obvious is the hero...then who is his arche nemesis? Turns out the guy is named, not surprisngly, Dr. Subtlety.

Don't forget Professor Obfuscate. He's always lurking in the shadows, planning some sort of monkeyshines.

[Jasonc]

This Captain Obvious Meme has been doing the rounds, and I always wondered.... if Captain Obvious is the hero...then who is his arche nemesis? Turns out the guy is named, not surprisngly, Dr. Subtlety. Also turns out Captain Obvious has some helpers in the form of Blatancy Boy (who points out the Obvious) and his wise mentor Mr. Literal.

Very intricate universe and would make for a supremely good comic book: http://chellon.deviantart.com/art/Captain-...Poster-95528231

In any case - it's more thought out than the Robotech universe

Pete

You must be HG's new hire, and you're trying to push Shadow Rising's next plot on us.

[VFTF1]

Der ploop bloop, screemo!

...

or whatever it was Anikin said!

Pete

[megatron103]

i'm new here so i don't understand what the beef is.

why are people here so harsh on robotech fans here.

for me robotech was/is epic. i was a kid and there was nothing like it on tv, and because of it i found macross; well it was dyrl the movie and i wanted more of both because for me i love the story of robotech but i love all things macross even mac2 which i think makes a way better robotech masters then southern cross. i wish the guys that own macross would get the rights to robotech and really do that story some justice

Edited January 15, 2010 by megatron103

[EXO]

And so it has happened before... and will happen again...

[Save]

i'm new here so i don't understand what the beef is.

why are people here so harsh on robotech fans here.

Nobody here is harsh on Robotech fans. They are harsh on people who are immature who just happen to be Robotech fans. You will find plenty of Robotech fans here including myself that don't get mud slung at them.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Save

[azrael]

And so it has happened before... and will happen again...

I'm starting to feel like "God" from BSG. This is what he must have felt like when after Kobol, then 12 colonies, then New Caprica....

[taksraven]

And so it has happened before... and will happen again...

Like sands in the hourglass, so to are the days of our lives......

Taksraven

[Jasonc]

i'm new here so i don't understand what the beef is.

why are people here so harsh on robotech fans here.

for me robotech was/is epic. i was a kid and there was nothing like it on tv, and because of it i found macross; well it was dyrl the movie and i wanted more of both because for me i love the story of robotech but i love all things macross even mac2 which i think makes a way better robotech masters then southern cross. i wish the guys that own macross would get the rights to robotech and really do that story some justice

Ugh, again? OK, I won't be rude, and since you're new, probably the best way to understand the issues is to read the previous threads (you can find them by going to the first page of each thread). It's not the fans in general that are the problem, just maybe 4-6 of them that give Robotech fans a very bad name and detract from the rest. it's also the staff themselves at HG, but without going into detail, it's all been said. I would encourage you to read through some of the posts. Since you have "heard" that there is some beef with Robotech fans, I'm curious as to where you got the info from?

[Gubaba]

I think I'm staying out of this one...

But just in case it comes up, the SDF-1 is 1200 meters long. No ifs, ands, or buts.

[VFTF1]

i'm new here so i don't understand what the beef is.

why are people here so harsh on robotech fans here.

for me robotech was/is epic. i was a kid and there was nothing like it on tv, and because of it i found macross; well it was dyrl the movie and i wanted more of both because for me i love the story of robotech but i love all things macross even mac2 which i think makes a way better robotech masters then southern cross. i wish the guys that own macross would get the rights to robotech and really do that story some justice

I'm old here so I don't understand what the problem is.

Why don't new people read multi-page threads to get answers to basic questions?

For me, when I was a new person here, I would read entire threads to understand what it was people were talking about so that I could contribute my own thoughts, and post sensible questions. Because of it, I found that I understood the basics and was able to become part of the discussion...

aka....I invite you to read at least this thread from the beginning - and this thread starts from a post which links to the previous two threads - all the answers are there.

As for the "story" of Robotech ...

I'm confused.

Can you please explain what you mean by the "story of robotech" - because to my mind that "story" has been retconned a dozen times and entire portions of it have been sumarily dismissed (such as the novels) to the point where it's hard to make out a "story."

If you're just talking about the "story" of the cartoon - then personally, I prefer the story of SDF Macross to the story of Robotech.

I think the two stories - Robotech the Macross Saga and the original SDF Macross - are diametrically different and the latter is superior to the former, mainly due to the treatment of what Protoculture is in Macross vs. what it is in Robotech.

In Macross, Protoculture is an ancient civilization which was brought to ruins by science, and humanity is its' fail-safe, destined to restore culture to the universe. This is why a simple love story and the simple lives of civilians becomes so critical as the story progresses; because these elements are the seeds of culture which later take root in the hearts of the Zendradi.

Meanwhile Robotech totally annihilates this theme, makes Protoculture into a psychedelic drug/uber fuel, and makes the battle be over a fuel source between an RDF and Zendradi that are indistinguishable from eachother on a moral level, since both are simply highly militarized societies fighting over resources.

I also prefer the characters in Macross to the ones in Robotech - or rather, I think Robotech ruins a lot of the characters in Macross - mainly Misa Hayese. Lisa just isn't as subtle. Rick goes from being an everyman to a superman....

I'd be happy to get into the nitty gritty - but I'm first curious if you could perhaps assert a bit more clearly what it is in Robotech that you like?

As for Macross 2 being a "better" Robotech Masters ...

I don't share the assumption that any Macross story ought to have "become" Robotech Masters because Overtechnology was simply Protoculture technology (the people, not the flower) and the idea of the Robotech Masters has nothing to do with Macross.

I personally prefer the way Macross has developed the original story from SDFM, particularly in Macross Zero, with the Protoculture Evolutionary Theory ...

but...well... curious what you have to say and hope you read not only the HG/ Robotech threads, but check out the Macross TV and Movie threads.

Finally - out of curiosity - aside from DYRL and Macross 2 - how much Macross have you managed to watch?

Pete

[taksraven]

In Macross, Protoculture is an ancient civilization which was brought to ruins by science, and humanity is its' fail-safe, destined to restore culture to the universe.

To me its a bit of a strange starting point, actually, since I have always considered religion and politics as more likely to bring down civilisations.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

To me its a bit of a strange starting point, actually, since I have always considered religion and politics as more likely to bring down civilisations.

Taksraven

Same thing

Science is the most dangerous of religions with the most dangerous political impacts.

The vast majority of religions teach that there is a God who is superior to mortals, and therefore that mortals have limited knowledge, limited abilities, and are not all powerful. Politically, this translates into legal restraints on what mortals can do - particularly to eachother. Given that mortals are falliable, no mortal can ever wield absolute power, and all mortals are equal insofar as they are imperfect.

Of course - sometimes some mortals claim they hav a direct line to God, a better understanding of religion than others - and under these circumstances "religion and politics" do bring down civilizations.

BUT

Science is the most dangerous because religion always relies on faith - always relies on there being a gulf between the known and the unknown, between the concept of omniscience and omnipotence and the reality of the limits of human nature. Science, however, discards all of this in favor of the idea of experimentation in the pursuit of human ends.

Science distinguishes between facts and values and pronounces the latter unscientific and relativistic while only the former can be grasped by human knowledge.

Now - note what happens in this situation?

If all values are merely relativistic and no values can ever be scientifically proven, and scientific proof is the benchmark for factual truth and untruth -- then:

How can you prove that science has any value?

You can't.

Science cannot justify itself because it pronounces all such justifications are merely subjective whims. Moving further down this path... :

How then, can we "know" what science should be used for? What limits - if any - should be placed on science?

Again - science is silent on this matter because there is no scientific way to judge it - at least no modern scientific way.

Thins about the Macross Galaxy from Macross Frontier. That's a micro-cosmic example of what happened to the protoculture's civilization and what happens to civilization when science becomes the dominant religion.

Pete

[Saraphys]

Science is the most dangerous because religion always relies on faith - always relies on there being a gulf between the known and the unknown, between the concept of omniscience and omnipotence and the reality of the limits of human nature. Science, however, discards all of this in favor of the idea of experimentation in the pursuit of human ends.

Science distinguishes between facts and values and pronounces the latter unscientific and relativistic while only the former can be grasped by human knowledge.

Now - note what happens in this situation?

If all values are merely relativistic and no values can ever be scientifically proven, and scientific proof is the benchmark for factual truth and untruth -- then:

How can you prove that science has any value?

You can't.

Science cannot justify itself because it pronounces all such justifications are merely subjective whims. Moving further down this path... :

How then, can we "know" what science should be used for? What limits - if any - should be placed on science?

Again - science is silent on this matter because there is no scientific way to judge it - at least no modern scientific way.

I dont know why...

But i get the sense that your pushing your religious views into making science 'bad'. Ofcourse, without science, no computers, not telephones, no instant worldwide network; so I'm giving you credit loss right here.

But if i debate this fully, im gonna end up making someone cry...So im going to have to suffice with this:

On this little planet of the apes, it is not science that has caused people conflict; its religion. Look at any war (with but a few obvious exceptions) and you'll find that religion and politics are to blame...not science.

Science doesn't kill people, People use science to kill people.

((I.e. Nuclear power doesn't kill people, Nuclear weapons do))

Now please go back to the topic...

[Gubaba]

I dont know why...

But i get the sense that your pushing your religious views into making science 'bad'. Ofcourse, without science, no computers, not telephones, no instant worldwide network; so I'm giving you credit loss right here.

But if i debate this fully, im gonna end up making someone cry...So im going to have to suffice with this:

On this little planet of the apes, it is not science that has caused people conflict; its religion. Look at any war (with but a few obvious exceptions) and you'll find that religion and politics are to blame...not science.

Science doesn't kill people, People use science to kill people.

((I.e. Nuclear power doesn't kill people, Nuclear weapons do))

Now please go back to the topic...

VFTF1 never "pushes" anything. He plays with ideas...he picks them up, looks at them, and sometimes picks up an opposing idea just to see how they play off each other. It's usually unsafe to look at anything VFTF1 says, and say, "Oh, that's what he thinks." It's much more accurate to look at his posts and say, "Oh, that's what he's thinking ABOUT."

Regardless, the SDF-1 is still 1200 meters long.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Gubaba

[VFTF1]

I dont know why...

But i get the sense that your pushing your religious views into making science 'bad'. Ofcourse, without science, no computers, not telephones, no instant worldwide network; so I'm giving you credit loss right here.

Not at all. I invite you to read Husserel's Vienna Lecture of 1935: http://www.users.cloud9.net/~bradmcc/husserl_philcris.html

Or, if you want a very quick rebuttle: to paraphrase you:

Without science, no holocaust, no Hiroshima, no machine guns able to mow down thouands of people in a few seconds during WWI.

I'm giving you credit loss right here for not recognizing the flip side

On this little planet of the apes, it is not science that has caused people conflict; its religion. Look at any war (with but a few obvious exceptions) and you'll find that religion and politics are to blame...not science.

Science doesn't kill people, People use science to kill people.

((I.e. Nuclear power doesn't kill people, Nuclear weapons do))

But I wrote of "science as a religion" - so yes. I agree with you. Religion, broadly defined as what people believe about themselves and the universe, leads often to conflict.

See - here - you failed to quote me on this:

Science is the most dangerous of religions with the most dangerous political impacts.

(Perhaps you did not quote the very beginning of my post because it runs contrary to your simple fantasy in which on one side there is something called "religion" and on the other side there is something called "science" - ergo - you would not be able to make your point opposing the two without first tossing my statement about "science is the most dangerous of religions" to the memory hole...)

Modern Science as a religion, particularly as a political religion, is no exception.

Unfortunately, you haven't read anything I wrote in my post - you just saw the word "religion" then noticed I said something critical about science - and apparently proceeded to judge that I was a religious nutt raving against the internet and microwaves...

Finally - it is on topic.

Go watch all of Macross and tell me how it is possible to discuss the Protoculture's collapse without discussing the impact of science on society?

I linked the views I expressed in my post explicitly to the Macross Galaxy from Macross Frontier - which was a very good example of science run amock. [and this in turn stemmed from an early post in which I wrote that one thing I prefer about Macross over Robotech is that it deals with the story of the Protoculture as a society felled by science rather than having Protoculture just be a fuel source to fight over]

How does science run amock? I tried to give a brief summary of the notion - but if that doesn't work (which clearly it doesn't) - then I invite you to read the link provided above.

Pete

Edited January 15, 2010 by VFTF1

[Einherjar]

You're forgetting the endless pursuit for money and recognition by HG without actually doing/using anything beyond what they paid for 25 years ago. It's the reason why the Alpha, Beta, etc. from the 80s are still the most advanced piece of technology for the RDF.

[taksraven]

Same thing

Science is the most dangerous of religions with the most dangerous political impacts.

The vast majority of religions teach that there is a God who is superior to mortals, and therefore that mortals have limited knowledge, limited abilities, and are not all powerful. Politically, this translates into legal restraints on what mortals can do - particularly to eachother. Given that mortals are falliable, no mortal can ever wield absolute power, and all mortals are equal insofar as they are imperfect.

Of course - sometimes some mortals claim they hav a direct line to God, a better understanding of religion than others - and under these circumstances "religion and politics" do bring down civilizations.

Comes down to the individuals opinions on religion I guess. I have always seen religion as a method of control. Little better than politics and often far less democratic. (Not that democracy is the be all and end all)

BUT

Science is the most dangerous because religion always relies on faith - always relies on there being a gulf between the known and the unknown, between the concept of omniscience and omnipotence and the reality of the limits of human nature. Science, however, discards all of this in favor of the idea of experimentation in the pursuit of human ends.

Science distinguishes between facts and values and pronounces the latter unscientific and relativistic while only the former can be grasped by human knowledge.

Now - note what happens in this situation?

If all values are merely relativistic and no values can ever be scientifically proven, and scientific proof is the benchmark for factual truth and untruth -- then:

How can you prove that science has any value?

You can't.

Science cannot justify itself because it pronounces all such justifications are merely subjective whims. Moving further down this path... :

How then, can we "know" what science should be used for? What limits - if any - should be placed on science?

Again - science is silent on this matter because there is no scientific way to judge it - at least no modern scientific way.

I don't think that you can equate science with religion. Its dealing with these issues that tripped up Sagan with Contact.

In short. We live with the benefits and negatives of science everyday, whether its using mobile phones to communicate with others, or its possibly the radiation from that same mobile phone that is possibly beaming into a persons brain (tin foil hat time, sorry) that might be helping to create a tumor that might ultimately kill the individual. And its all the same thing, just two sides of the one coin.

With great power comes great responsibility (blah, blah, blah......) and its how we use that power that ultimately defines us as human beings.

Nuclear power is the ultimate example. Nuclear reactors can generate electricity relatively easily and cheaply compared to fossil fuels, but if you are not careful with the waste, or if you don't maintain the reactor, you can do enormous damage. Its always been the case that science is put too quickly to dangerous uses, but at the end of the day we have created the big red fricken button that could be pressed to end it all. But nobody has used it.

Thats not to say that such destructive power will never be used though.

And to wrap it up with the Sagan line. We are capable of the most wonderful dreams, and most terrible nightmares. Humans are always walking the finest line between the two.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

Regardless, the SDF-1 is still 12,000 meters long.

Agreed.

Taksraven

[RedWolf]

The Protoculture came to an end because of a Lensman arms race of which became their undoing.

As for the Protoculture's culture we know very little except they don't want to fight by themselves, they admire and fear the Vajra same thing goes for Space Whales, and they like love songs.

[VFTF1]

The Protoculture came to an end because of a Lensman arms race of which became their undoing.

I disagree slightly. From the Macross stories, the undoing of the protoculture was less straightforward and more fascinating.

In the Lensman arms race, at least according to that link, you have at least two opposing sides who are engaged in an arms race. However, unless I'm misunderstanding Macross, the Protoculture never had an opponent as such - rather, they imploded from within. I think a better analogy would be the fall of the Roman Republic and its' transformation into an Empire, and ultimate decline through this process.

The Protoculture created a marvelous scientific civilization, which seemed to fall on account of pride.

Remember in Macross Zero what the Birdman asks of Sarah? "Are humans capable of reaching the stars?" "Yes." "Do humans still war with one another?" "Yes." "Then the experiment is a failure."

The failure rests in the inability of science to temper the primal quest for power through any means. Science, as the Protoculture concieved it, was after all meant to ensure prosperity, health, long life and the satisfaction of the dreams of cultured beings. That much is clear from the remnants of their amazing civilization.

The problem is that no matter how technologically advanced a society becomes - it will never rid itself of evil; and the more you applify the capacity for unlimited power, the more chance that this power will be used for evil.

Finally, there is a very specific problem that scientific progress poses; a problem that is unique to modern scientific societies: namely - science presumes that experimentation should be unhindered and that technological progress is co-equal with happiness and the good.

Yet clearly, we see in Macross that this is not so. It's not so because even when humanity becomes, effectively, the Neo Protoculture and ventures into space, we have colonies where human love and friendship have priority over science (Macross Frontier), and colonies where science takes priority over human love and friendship.

I realize that this is an over-simplification - but I believe it's an over-simplification in line with the vision that Kawamori gives us. All we know about social life on the Macross Galaxy is that scientists there mask their primal urges for domination and hatred of the advanced Vajra under the guise of scientific progress, and they sacrifice other human beings on the alter of scientific progress - exactly what Grace did to Sheryl Nome: using her as nothing more than a disposable means towards gaining the power of the Vajra and surpassing the Protoculture in power.

Meanwhile, on Macross Frontier, science is subordinate to morality insofar as what we are shown there is the primacy of love and friendship. Everything we see about Frontier indicates that people are put first, and science is merely a tool for people. Even the manner in which the dead are disposed of is respectful of their humanity while at the same time scientifically efficient (unlike what happens to Sheryl on Galaxy, where her humanity is discarded in the name of scientific efficiency).

The point that I am getting at is - where does this difference come from?

In my view, it comes from embracing scientific methodology in its' entirety on the one hand (Galaxy) and recognizing the limits of scientific methodology on the other hand (Macross Frontier).

Grace embracd scientific methodology in its' entirety insofar as she was not hindered by any moral qualms; hinderences that science considers beneath the realm of scientific inquiry and scientifically irrelevent. Science is simply about acquiring knowledge about nature in order to transform nature to serve human ends - but the ends are never questioned, and it is never asked "what ends are worthy of serving, what ends are not?" or "what ends are proper to human happiness and what ends are tragic and end in human misery?"

When Global told Misa about the plan to create colony ships, he did not say "we are going to carry scientific progress into the universe." Global explicitly said the motive of the project was to preserve Culture. The idea was the humanity on Earth had reached a stage of DECLINE (contrary to the evidence that seemed to indicate on the surface that humanity was in a state of great progress because it could traverse space, fold, and had so many other fascinating gizmos).

Global and Misa understood that the longer humanity was allowed to progress towards greater technological innovation, the more it would risk discarding human culture and become like the Zendradi.

This is because, again - science is (at best) neutral in questions of happiness, and it is totally unable to justify its' own self.

Let me put it this way:

Please tell me what scientific experiment can be conducted to prove that science is worthwhile? What scientific experiments or mathematical proofs can be precisely given that prove that human happiness is tied to the advancement of science?

Was love and friendship impossible in ages past when there were no fold boosters? Was love and happiness not possible in ages past when peope subsisted in more technologically primitive conditions?

And does not technology, like any other primitive religion, risk masking the true state of the human heart from humans? I don't really think I need to go as far as citing the Matrix here - but to fail to recognize that science is the ultimate "religious" threat to human happiness is the tragedy of the Protoculture.

Look at the Protoculture city that Misa and Hikaru find in DYRL. Look closely at what Kawamori shows us as the most important elements of that city?

Do Misa and Hikaru marvel at its' technological greatness? At the flashy gizmos and computers? Do they lust and dream of power?

Nope.

Misa finds some table wear and begins doing the dinner, while Hikaru goes "hunting" - and Misa, happily doing the dishes, says "some things never change."

They find happiness is being able to just be a man and a woman together - irrespective of whether the Earth is a nuclear wasteland and irrespective of the supposed technological stupendousness of the Protoculture city.

This is NOT (just to cover my butt) a rant against science. I am not suggesting that science is "bad" or that it is totally worthless. But it does make people think in ways that people did not think before, and it does pose a very unique risk for people because it presents them with the same fake prospect that all other religions that were tyrannical promised in the past: paradise - escape from the human condition, the creation of a new type of human being and an escape from human nature towards becoming a God (like Grace wanted).

Thankfully, simple things like love and friendship endure no matter what the level of advancement or regression in human affairs.

Oh - and that's another fallacy that science teaches and that destroyed the Protoculture: the idea that progress is infinitie. That each year will bring better gizmos, better discoveres - better stuff. That it is impossible for humanity to regress.

Well - that's obviously rubbish. The Protoculture, despite all their technology, regressed into Nothingness.

Finally - even the Protoculture's attempt to save themselves by creating humanity is a perverse symptom of the sickness of modern scientific society: the Bird Human, upon hearing that Men still fight wars, announces that it will therefore terminate ALL humanity. "The experiment" it calls mankind.

It doesn't care that Shin loves Sara, and that Sarah loves Shin. The Protoculture's final attempt at salvation for themselves through the creation of the human race was doomed to fail because they treated the matter as an experiment - humans were variables, and the goal was eternal progress.

But it is the constant re-assertion of the cycle of human nature that constitutes the only type of happiness satisfactory for humans. With the birth of each new civilization, the struggle and eternal questions reassert themselves - and people must choose whether they will love and do what is true to their hearts, or whether they will believe in the latest fad - in this case the fairy tail that science will lead them to total bliss.

This is one thing about Kawamori's work which is under appreciated - or at least it is sometimes misunderstood as being Kawamori's nascent environmentalism. I don't think Kawamori's constant extoling of Nature over Technology has anything to do with a simple minded environmentalism - rather - it has to do with the struggle of Culture against Science.

Or maybe "struggle" is the wrong word. The two are constantly in tension.

The Protoculture let science get the better of them. Now, as Macross continues, we'll see how humanity fairs in this regard.

And Robotech sucks because it erases this ENTIRE story and turns things into a banal soap opera between Rick, Lisa and the slurm Queen as they fight goopy aliens over intergalactic oil for their transforming robots and space ships.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm giving you credit loss right here for not recognizing the flip side

Or you could examine the bigger picture and take note that your argument about the evils of science is centered around an obviously faulty assertion... that the lack of modern science and technology was ever a serious obstacle to good old fashioned murder and genocide at any point in humanity's history. We, as a species, were gleefully butchering the living hell out of our fellow man, often on religious grounds, long before modern science rolled around and made it somewhat more convenient. A lack of poison gas, nuclear bombs, and machine guns didn't stop people from having a go at each other armed and wiping whole cities off the map with nothing fancier than torches, pointy sticks, and chunks of sharpened metal or stone. The only thing science did was distance man from the act itself so he (usually) doesn't get viscera all over his shoes.

Go watch all of Macross and tell me how it is possible to discuss the Protoculture's collapse without discussing the impact of science on society?

As I illustrated above, it's reaching pretty damn far to point the finger at science as the cause of the Protoculture's collapse. Science facilitated things, but the ultimate cause was a good old fashioned failure to communicate and take stock of what the other party is thinking/feeling. If you want to dumb it down rather a lot, one of the core themes of Macross has ALWAYS been "See! We didn't NEED to shoot the crap out of each other! We could've talked it out!". The Protoculture failed to talk it out and so (depending on the universe) they either turned their existing weapons on each other or had a new trial weapon run amok and wipe them out. In short, their fall was facilitated by their use of advanced science and technology, but the ultimate cause was a simple failure to communicate.

Now if you play this from the altogether more slapdash Robotech angle on "protoculture", the whole thing is just a fuel source that everyone is too lazy to try to find an alternative for, so they shoot the everloving hell out of each other for a bit, then humanity wins by a narrow margin and enslaves the survivors of their enemies (and any newly liberated allies) to fuel their war machine to defend against the next attempt to take their magic flowers away. That's nothing with a moral, that's just a weak excuse to justify several large wars (which is suppose is somewhat more realistic XD) and the sort of obnoxious "humanity is inherently morally and spiritually superior to aliens" malarkey that was so often the butt of jokes in the original Star Trek series.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

Let's NOT do this whole "science as a religion" or "science on society"-thing. Got it? Good. In fact, get back on topic.

Like how Protoculture went from a society to a seed the size of my thumbnail which apparently has enough energy to power a 100W lightbulb for a day.

[Wanzerfan]

Nobody here is harsh on Robotech fans. They are harsh on people who are immature who just happen to be Robotech fans. You will find plenty of Robotech fans here including myself that don't get mud slung at them.

And myself, who became disillusioned to what the franchise has become.

I think I'm staying out of this one...

But just in case it comes up, the SDF-1 is 1200 meters long. No ifs, ands, or buts.

We are in agreement here. According to Siembieda, the Macross is 1,200 meters long. It also has a mass of about 16,329,600 metric tons (I had to convert the figure myself; he only gave the imperal measurement for weight in his Robotech: The Macross Saga sourcebook). Edited January 15, 2010 by Wanzerfan