HG and Robotech Debates

[azrael]

Yeah I agree wholeheartedly

a forum is just a waste if people can't have their own opinions.

I don't see anything about criticism in the forum rules. So I'd just call it seeing everything through rose-color glasses i.e. delete things that don't conform.

[anime52k8]

Ah, I'm surprised he didn't contact me directly... but my point was that the Genia is an Alpha done up in a Skull Squad paintjob similar to the one on Roy's VF-0S, and sporting a wing structure similar to that of the VF-0D. Admittedly, looking at it again, BRL does have a point that it does borrow a lot from the early concept art for the "Vector", which later became Mospeada's Legioss.

I still don't see the VF-0D connection. To me it looks more like they took a legioss and added a bunch of elements and from the Super Valkyrie and the skull 1 scheme off the VF-1S in a sad attempt to justify how they went from the VF-1 to the alpha design wise.

:edit: actually, looking at it again, what he did was take the Alpha and stick on a bunch of parts from his YF-4 "design" (plus the head laser and bell shaped boosters from the super valkyrie).

Edited February 22, 2010 by anime52k8

[Einherjar]

Actually, from reading it I got the distinct impression that Tommy saw Macross Zero, said "this poo is AWESOME, I need to make something like this for Robotech". So he modified a plot from an old Robotech about how Roy was manlier than Chuck Norris with Anti-UN and VF test story elements from Macross Zero, and arranged a climax based around an event he pilfered from Macross's backstory (Sept. '05). The use of the whole business with Claudia was a necessary element in it, but wasn't major... it was just to tie the main story into the comic. He also used From the Stars to tie up a lot of little mecha-related loose ends and explain how everyone met, incl. characters from the Sentinels and Masters Saga.

I brought this up a long time ago, but could HG have had a role in how long it took Macross Zero being completed? Of course, when they were making that, it was both ambitious and trying to push the envelope with CGI. But it still took a long time to finish that a lot of things could have happened behind the scenes.

[azrael]

I brought this up a long time ago, but could HG have had a role in how long it took Macross Zero being completed? Of course, when they were making that, it was both ambitious and trying to push the envelope with CGI. But it still took a long time to finish that a lot of things could have happened behind the scenes.

No. HG would have no control over that. Tatsunoko, maybe. But not HG. But even then, that's a big maybe. Tatsunoko didn't file a lawsuit on Bandai Visual until months after volume 4 came out.

[Gubaba]

I brought this up a long time ago, but could HG have had a role in how long it took Macross Zero being completed? Of course, when they were making that, it was both ambitious and trying to push the envelope with CGI. But it still took a long time to finish that a lot of things could have happened behind the scenes.

I seriously doubt it. Macross Plus took a long time between episodes as well.

[anime52k8]

ok, I downloaded the from the stars TPB, and I have to ask: what the F*** is this shit?

:edit: have I ever mentioned how much I hate it when they fill up the back of a comic with "art" by random guest illustrators because the think it will be cool to include stuff in there "unique style" where unique style means off-model crap.

Edited February 22, 2010 by anime52k8

[Seto Kaiba]

wow now its against the rules to criticize The Shadow Chronicles on RTX

I wasn't aware that it was some sacred cow, wish memo would enlighten me

Um... wasn't it pretty much always that way? If anyone dared to criticize Harmony Gold's handling of the franchise and Tommy's pathetic attempt to keep it limping along, MEMO would banish it to Cannon Fodder where nobody could see it.

Don't worry HP, I have a special method to help you understand MEMO's thought process. First, you need to abandon all rational thought, critical thinking, standards, and morals, and then you just have to chant "Carl Macek is God, there is no God except Carl Macek, and Tommy Yune is his prophet" until you lose your grip on reality.

Quite frankly, I think the site exists primarily for Memo to show off to HG how great he is at marshaling the troops and building enthusiasm, and creating buzz. And I'll wager he thinks anyone who says "Hey, I like Robotech but I didn't like Shadow Chronicles" puts that enthusiasm at risk. How can he show HG his magnificent work-in-progress if everyone's bashing the hell out of their award-winning tribute to cinematic excellence? Or talking about Macross legalities?

Actually, that's a pretty fair summary of MEMO's motivations for everything Robotech-related that he's ever done. If you talk to the people who knew him from the early days of the online fandom, everyone and their dog'll tell you that he does what he does out of a misguided belief that if he rallies the troops, gives 110% (of his income), and goes the extra mile (at his own expense) Harmony Gold will look down on him with pride from their lofty position as sovereigns of the worldwide anime industry (in his own mind) and elevate him to become one of their number. For his purposes, having any kind of dissent "in the ranks" is a bad thing, since he wants to show himself off as the leader of the loyal, die-hard fans who'll buy any damn thing Harmony Gold tells them to.

I brought this up a long time ago, but could HG have had a role in how long it took Macross Zero being completed? Of course, when they were making that, it was both ambitious and trying to push the envelope with CGI. But it still took a long time to finish that a lot of things could have happened behind the scenes.

Directly? No. Indirectly? It's highly probable. Macross Zero was in the later stages of production when Harmony Gold inadvertently ignited the whole legal dispute by trying to bar Macross merchandise from entering the US. I'd say the resulting punch-up between Big West and Tatsunoko that was triggered by their actions played at least a minor role in the Macross Zero release schedule.

ok, I downloaded the from the stars TPB, and I have to as: what the F*** is this shit?

I don't have my copy of From the Stars on hand, but I don't think it has that big tower doodad on it when Roy shoots it up in the last issue. Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Directly? No. Indirectly? It's highly probable. Macross Zero was in the later stages of production when Harmony Gold inadvertently ignited the whole legal dispute by trying to bar Macross merchandise from entering the US. I'd say the resulting punch-up between Big West and Tatsunoko that was triggered by their actions played at least a minor role in the Macross Zero release schedule.

I don't have my copy of From the Stars on hand, but I don't think it has that big tower doodad on it when Roy shoots it up in the last issue. Other than that, your guess is as good as mine.

In making a connection with what azrael said with legal disputes starting after volume 4 came out, I have a strong suspicion that it did cost Macross Zero an episode. It kind of makes sense, the beginning of episode 5 felt like they compressed a lot of material from an additional episode to bring the whole thing to a conclusion. The story did move abruptly from the firebombing of the Mayan island from the previous episode, to finding all those Protoculture artifacts, and then Sara and Aries being whisked away suddenly in less than 5 minutes.

[VF5SS]

you guys should start a counter for when the next robotech sequel comes out and how many macross productions finish in the mean time.

we're one ova, two video games, one series, and two movies ahead.

[terry the lone wolf]

ok, I downloaded the from the stars TPB, and I have to ask: what the F*** is this shit?

:edit: have I ever mentioned how much I hate it when they fill up the back of a comic with "art" by random guest illustrators because the think it will be cool to include stuff in there "unique style" where unique style means off-model crap.

Isn't that from the Robotech Sourcebook?

[Saraphys]

Actually, that's a pretty fair summary of MEMO's motivations for everything Robotech-related that he's ever done. If you talk to the people who knew him from the early days of the online fandom, everyone and their dog'll tell you that he does what he does out of a misguided belief that if he rallies the troops, gives 110% (of his income), and goes the extra mile (at his own expense) Harmony Gold will look down on him with pride from their lofty position as sovereigns of the worldwide anime industry (in his own mind) and elevate him to become one of their number. For his purposes, having any kind of dissent "in the ranks" is a bad thing, since he wants to show himself off as the leader of the loyal, die-hard fans who'll buy any damn thing Harmony Gold tells them to.

...Earth, Ephialtes, 470 BCE...

Oh, dont mind me...

[VFTF1]

Everybody knows Macross is just a Yamato rip off anyways, and the SDF-1 is 1500 feet long.

So why is this thread 36 pages? Beats me.

Pete

[Uxi]

How many posts are yours?

[Uxi]

ok, I downloaded the from the stars TPB, and I have to ask: what the F*** is this shit?

Looks like a drydock type thing like the Enterprise was in for ST: The Boring Picture or the Enterprise-E at the end of Nemesis...

Hmm maybe not, all 3 of them have them... is that planet supposed to be Earth?

Edited February 22, 2010 by Uxi

[Seto Kaiba]

Looks like a drydock type thing like the Enterprise was in for ST: The Boring Picture or the Enterprise-E at the end of Nemesis...

Hmm maybe not, all 3 of them have them... is that planet supposed to be Earth?

I think so... though it's hard to tell. So much of the art in the so-called Robotech Sourcebook is either heavily HEAVILY stylized or just plain badly drawn that it's frequently hard to tell what's what. You should see the drawing of Minmei in there... it's kind of creepy.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[anime52k8]

Looks like a drydock type thing like the Enterprise was in for ST: The Boring Picture or the Enterprise-E at the end of Nemesis...

Hmm maybe not, all 3 of them have them... is that planet supposed to be Earth?

well it was from the back of the from the stars comic book trade paperback. there was a bunch of really ugly illustrations back there. I think whoever drew it decided that the ARMD's don't look cool enough on their own, so he decided to attach an office building to the side... and the international space station and the Hubble space telescope as well apparently.

[eugimon]

the little hubble dongle is awesome, don't hate.

[BeyondTheGrave]

`Why does it look as if its refueling the satellite? Is that even a satellite?

Edited February 23, 2010 by BeyondTheGrave

[HappyPenguins]

Um... wasn't it pretty much always that way? If anyone dared to criticize Harmony Gold's handling of the franchise and Tommy's pathetic attempt to keep it limping along, MEMO would banish it to Cannon Fodder where nobody could see it.

Don't worry HP, I have a special method to help you understand MEMO's thought process. First, you need to abandon all rational thought, critical thinking, standards, and morals, and then you just have to chant "Carl Macek is God, there is no God except Carl Macek, and Tommy Yune is his prophet" until you lose your grip on reality.

Actually I've made fun of it before and he didn't seem to care, change of heart all of a sudden?

[Seto Kaiba]

`Why does it look as if its refueling the satellite? Is that even a satellite?

Who knows? Moreover, who cares? Pretty much everything in the "Robotech Sourcebook" is horribly off-model, and most of it looks like it was drawn by artists trying to "reimagine" the original designs in new styles... many of which just look lousy. (The little kid Minmei art gives me the creeps... it's a vaguely recognizable Minmay head hovering vaguely over a body that looks wrong in proportion and far too round to be human...)

's not quite the worst (or dumbest) thing in the so-called new comics... that would definitely be the "Mars Base One" short published in Robotech: Invasion, where they explain that the reason Mars Base Sara is deserted is because it was attacked by the Zentradi years before Breetai's fleet showed up, and that the last survivor (Lisa's BF) decided he couldn't get off-planet and went for a walk across Mars's surface looking for evidence of life until his oxygen ran out and he died.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Jasonc]

I remember when Memo was trying to "sell" the idea of robotechx.com to me and a couple others, and it was pushed as a site "by the fans, for the fans". I really have to ask where any of that applies, as it seems more like the site's mission statement should be "by the RT mods, for Tommy Yune". Even with all the ridiculous rantings and claims I read on that site, I've never been able to care for being on that site. It's policy how the way HG runs their site, it's just goofy having "fans" running it the same way. And, if that's not how the people who own the site want it run, perhaps they should take inventory of what is going on there.

[Einherjar]

Being the creative director for the franchise, a lot of people blame Tommy Yune for where Robotech is now. But shouldn't some of the blame also be put on other people like Carl Macek? Although technically he made his own continuation and ending through secondary material, what he's been doing and saying all these years about Robotech also helped bring it where it is now.

[Seto Kaiba]

I remember when Memo was trying to "sell" the idea of robotechx.com to me and a couple others, and it was pushed as a site "by the fans, for the fans". I really have to ask where any of that applies, as it seems more like the site's mission statement should be "by the RT mods, for Tommy Yune".

Just from what I've heard about the early years of RobotechX, the site used to almost respectable as a venue for fans to express a broader spectrum of opinions without the tedious restrictions on content foisted on Robotech.com by Harmony Gold's corporate management. It was really just a safehaven for fans exiled from Robotech.com, and only started to go downhill in earnest once the nutjob contingent from RDF HQ and other such sites started migrating there with their crap about "true fans" and "Macross purist trolls". It went into freefall once MEMO got sick of his absurd claims about the Macross rights situation and Robotech's future being refuted and started banishing dissenting opinions to an invisible part of the boards.

And, if that's not how the people who own the site want it run, perhaps they should take inventory of what is going on there.

Um... MEMO is the owner of RobotechX. So yeah, that's how the people who own the site want it run. MEMO owns it, and SIGHUP does all the actual work.

Being the creative director for the franchise, a lot of people blame Tommy Yune for where Robotech is now. But shouldn't some of the blame also be put on other people like Carl Macek? Although technically he made his own continuation and ending through secondary material, what he's been doing and saying all these years about Robotech also helped bring it where it is now.

In my experience, the reason most fans blame Tommy Yune for the current state of affairs rather more than they do Carl Macek is the way he approached the task of expanding Robotech's story. Carl Macek's attempts to continue Robotech's story might've amounted to nothing more than a series of embarrassing failures, but he never had to stoop to rewriting the established continuity to make his stories fit. Tommy Yune catches a lot of flak because the first thing he did once he assumed the creative director position was to lay in with the retcons like they were going out of style. Substantial portions of the universe were deleted or significantly altered, and while he succeeded where Macek failed, his success came at the expense of additional retcons, further distorting the story and the setting. Tommy has basically Macross-ized Robotech a fair bit, excising protoculture fuel from the first two generations, majorly rewriting parts of the pre-Macross Saga history to something more in line with Macross, and deleting pretty much everything else that made Robotech separate and distinct from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada.

Basically, Tommy catches most of the flak for it because he fell into the same trap Paramount did with Enterprise. He invoked nerd rage in the fans by dicking with the established continuity and setting.

[Jasonc]

Being the creative director for the franchise, a lot of people blame Tommy Yune for where Robotech is now. But shouldn't some of the blame also be put on other people like Carl Macek? Although technically he made his own continuation and ending through secondary material, what he's been doing and saying all these years about Robotech also helped bring it where it is now.

It's a combo of both, and the rest of the RT staff that's changed with them throughout. Carl put together Robotech together, but his creative writing after that was what put Robotech into the hands of comic story artitsts and off the screen. Tommy put Robotech back onto a screen, but the quality was less than poor. The problem with both Macek, and Yune, is that they both can be very stubborn. Nobody really knows the capacity in which Carl will work with HG in, but maybe they think that two stubborn people working together will fix all the issues they had before. It seems more like too many cooks in the kitchen, but who knows. Who really cares?

[Einherjar]

In my experience, the reason most fans blame Tommy Yune for the current state of affairs rather more than they do Carl Macek is the way he approached the task of expanding Robotech's story. Carl Macek's attempts to continue Robotech's story might've amounted to nothing more than a series of embarrassing failures, but he never had to stoop to rewriting the established continuity to make his stories fit. Tommy Yune catches a lot of flak because the first thing he did once he assumed the creative director position was to lay in with the retcons like they were going out of style. Substantial portions of the universe were deleted or significantly altered, and while he succeeded where Macek failed, his success came at the expense of additional retcons, further distorting the story and the setting. Tommy has basically Macross-ized Robotech a fair bit, excising protoculture fuel from the first two generations, majorly rewriting parts of the pre-Macross Saga history to something more in line with Macross, and deleting pretty much everything else that made Robotech separate and distinct from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada.

Basically, Tommy catches most of the flak for it because he fell into the same trap Paramount did with Enterprise. He invoked nerd rage in the fans by dicking with the established continuity and setting.

Since the original Robotech saga continued and ended through the novels, though it's not really sure how much involvement Carl Macek had in those, wouldn't that count as the equivalent to what Tommy Yune has done? The books giving expanded and different explanations of the events of the original episodes could count as a retcon in the same way, wouldn't it? Though, I guess people blame that more on Jack McKinney than Macek. And then HG let some of those crazy comic book stories pass through even though quality control for them wasn't a priority at the time.

It's a combo of both, and the rest of the RT staff that's changed with them throughout. Carl put together Robotech together, but his creative writing after that was what put Robotech into the hands of comic story artitsts and off the screen. Tommy put Robotech back onto a screen, but the quality was less than poor. The problem with both Macek, and Yune, is that they both can be very stubborn. Nobody really knows the capacity in which Carl will work with HG in, but maybe they think that two stubborn people working together will fix all the issues they had before. It seems more like too many cooks in the kitchen, but who knows. Who really cares?

To me, recently I've been seeing more of it, and it's just becoming more and more sad that people are only finding out about these real apparent flaws about Robotech now. It's like Everyone who has ever been affiliated with HG willingly misled these people for 25 years, and they still stand by that decision today.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Einherjar

[taksraven]

In making a connection with what azrael said with legal disputes starting after volume 4 came out, I have a strong suspicion that it did cost Macross Zero an episode. It kind of makes sense, the beginning of episode 5 felt like they compressed a lot of material from an additional episode to bring the whole thing to a conclusion. The story did move abruptly from the firebombing of the Mayan island from the previous episode, to finding all those Protoculture artifacts, and then Sara and Aries being whisked away suddenly in less than 5 minutes.

I dunno. Macross conclusions usually seem quite rushed, not quality of animation wise, but story wise everything normally seems to be pretty compressed, esp. Macross Frontier.

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

In making a connection with what azrael said with legal disputes starting after volume 4 came out, I have a strong suspicion that it did cost Macross Zero an episode. It kind of makes sense, the beginning of episode 5 felt like they compressed a lot of material from an additional episode to bring the whole thing to a conclusion. The story did move abruptly from the firebombing of the Mayan island from the previous episode, to finding all those Protoculture artifacts, and then Sara and Aries being whisked away suddenly in less than 5 minutes.

I really, REALLY doubt that. Macross Zero was initially announced as a five-episode series before the first episode was ever released.

[azrael]

I dunno. Macross conclusions usually seem quite rushed, not quality of animation wise, but story wise everything normally seems to be pretty compressed, esp. Macross Frontier.

Frontier didn't feel as jumpy as Zero did. Zero could have used an extra 5-minutes/episode. The pacing of Frontier didn't really feel THAT awkward. It actually felt fairly normal.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

's not quite the worst (or dumbest) thing in the so-called new comics... that would definitely be the "Mars Base One" short published in Robotech: Invasion, where they explain that the reason Mars Base Sara is deserted is because it was attacked by the Zentradi years before Breetai's fleet showed up, and that the last survivor (Lisa's BF) decided he couldn't get off-planet and went for a walk across Mars's surface looking for evidence of life until his oxygen ran out and he died.

You serious?

That has got to be the stu.......Well... it is Robotech and HG....So yeah. It does make sense.

[Pizza the Hutt]

and it was pushed as a site "by the fans, for the fans". I really have to ask where any of that applies, as it seems more like the site's mission statement should be "by the RT mods, for Tommy Yune".-- I've never been able to care for being on that site. It's policy how the way HG runs their site,

I heard that too,Memo beeN searching and by chance he bumped into Sighup at a con and suddenly RtX is born. And Jasonc I apologize for bringing up a old problem but Memo told me you were the first one banned for cussing him out.

And I think Memo is a liar when he said to HP that Tommy don't surf RtX because we see alot of HG mods (aside from memo) ToU rt.com enforcement at RtX and also a reason Memo is heavily influenced by HG staff:

Kevin: Memo,keep them haters off your site or you cant come over to HG and play with us anymore

Memo:NO PROBLEM I WILL STOP ANYONE WHO INSULTS HG OR ROBOTECH BECAUSE YOU SAID THINGS ARE HAPPENING.

[Gubaba]

I heard that too,Memo beeN searching and by chance he bumped into Sighup at a con and suddenly RtX is born. And Jasonc I apologize for bringing up a old problem but Memo told me you were the first one banned for cussing him out.

And I think Memo is a liar when he said to HP that Tommy don't surf RtX because we see alot of HG mods (aside from memo) ToU rt.com enforcement at RtX and also a reason Memo is heavily influenced by HG staff:

Kevin: Memo,keep them haters off your site or you cant come over to HG and play with us anymore

Memo:NO PROBLEM I WILL STOP ANYONE WHO INSULTS HG OR ROBOTECH BECAUSE YOU SAID THINGS ARE HAPPENING.

It's not SO bad...Memo did retract his earlier comment (on the "Anyone else losing interest?" thread) about how criticism of Shadow Chronicles was "off-topic," so the bashing can now resume.

[VFTF1]

I would like to comment on the picture of the ARMD-1 bastardization for Robotech "Source" book that Anime52K put up for us:

My main gripe with it is the "bridge/building" - here's the problem:

The original ARMD-1 has the bridge/control center in the front - it all fits in that bulging protrusion. Now - given that said buldging protrusion is probably the size of a very large building...then the vertical "building/bridge" they put up in the "aircraft carrier" spirit has got to be HUGE. I mean - unless this version of the ARM is proportionally scaled down...but then that would limit the space on the landing platform...

I dunno...

In any case - what size is the SDF-1? Because I think that without the answer to this question, there's no way Warner can get the LAM off the ground.

Pete

[Funkenstein]

`Why does it look as if its refueling the satellite? Is that even a satellite?

"Its not a tumor!"

[terry the lone wolf]

Well silly me, I'm still hoping that Warner will go to Japan and hire real mechanical designers to create mecha that logically work. Maybe Aramaki or even dare I say it Kawamori.

[Einherjar]

I heard that too,Memo beeN searching and by chance he bumped into Sighup at a con and suddenly RtX is born. And Jasonc I apologize for bringing up a old problem but Memo told me you were the first one banned for cussing him out.

Wow, you really believed a lot of things that came out of MEMO's mouth, didn't you?