HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

I think Robotech still has some potential (though it will almost certainly be wasted). Certain aspects of it's story resonate more with American audience than Macross. In Robotech, the SDF-1 isn't just some tiny gunboat, it's Zor's fortress!!!11one!1 and it's crash on Earth (and the Zentradi pursuit of it) isn't just some random accident, but is all deliberate.

I do like the vast majority of Macross' official story MUCH better than the drek that's been turned out by HG, but in many ways, I don't find Macross' official progression as plausible (particularly the frequency and volume of the Super Long Range Emigration Fleets, cloning and OTM aside, though I do like the concept, execution, and evolution itself).

Mostly, HG should do two things:

1) Revisit The Sentinels. The concept is sound IMO ... the abortion of their earlier execution is a blessing in disguise. Re-use that concept but execute it better. Don't use silly cartoon aliens, can probably keep most of the names in place, but instead give them all some cool and unique mecha of their own while they fight the Regent and the Invid evolving a different direction than that of the Refles. Done right, it could be a legitimate sequel to Mospeada for the Japanese market (and a variant subtitled version released as a domestic 'exclusive' or limited edition). Get rid of the Southern Cross spandex and focus on Cyclones and the move from the regular Alpha/Beta to Shadow tech in response to the Invid. Still haven't seen Shadow Chronicles but from what I hear it sounds like a travesty, so this would be an opportunity to either "certain point of view" or just redo it.

2) Make nice with BW/SN. This is business... they don't have to like each other. Right now, BW/SN are getting peanuts from international Macross through the grey market and what not. HG could license and promote/distribute the Macross sequels unaltered. Realistically, this would still be niche. That could lead to 2b) Robotech Adaptations

Robotech DYRL: Movie in a movie that came out shortly before the launch of the Pioneer Mission

Robotech 2012: New colony ship based on the SDF1/2 design?

Robotech Plus: Testing new valkyr... ahem, veritech design to replace the VF-11, which replaced the Alpha/Beta.

Robotech Seven: Max leads a colony expedition on the way looking for the SDF-3 meanwhile they get attacked by the Protodevlin, who were presumably woken up by the Robotech Masters. Dubbed/new music, hopefully not too corny. Mylene retconned as Maia?

Robotech Frontier: Another colony mission gets attacked by the Vajra. Grace O'Connor/Galaxy has been getting the ambition to emulate the Robotech Masters?

Oh wow! A post about Robotech with substance! Allow me to reply...

If the SDF-1 being "ZOR'S FORTRESS!!!" instead of "some tiny gun boat" is what gives Americans a kick, then, to paraphrase Obi Wan "Well then they are Lost!!!" beause that's just a cheap stunt. "It's Zor's fortress!!" who cares. It could be a flying Dildo from Venus for all I care as long as the plot is good. And the overall plot of Macross is superior to Robotech, for reasons I've elaborated on in prior posts and will summerize here in the following sentence: Macross is a story about how a beautiful singer used the power of love and song to restore culture to an alien race that was robbed of its' humanity by the excesses of science, and to alert humanity to the need to preserve culture in order to save humanity from a similar fate to that of the aliens while Robotech was about Rick Hunter shooting aliens and a big war. The diffference in favor of Macross is so clear in my mind, that one would really have to be little more than a FANATICAL mecha-war-lover to prefer Robotech.

As to:

1) I agree that the basic concept of the Sentinels is sound. I always LOVED the RPG; the cover was so evocative and the idea of taking the adventure into outerspace and exploring an alien planet - going "off-Earth" - is a good idea. The problem is that the story falls apart later. I read McKinney's Planet Killers which concludes Sentinels and it just gets progressively worse as the story goes along. There's too much of a rush to a final epic battle. It's almost TOO stereotypical in terms of how the story progresses, and by making it so operetic, they sacrifice the tragic element. Still - the general concepts are decent.

2) Harmony Gold seem incapable of "making nice" with anybody. As for all of those ideas of "Robotech: DYRL" and "Robotech: Frontier" ...

You know....

To my mind NO successful western anime license has raped the product that it is bringing over from Japan. In fact, no successful FORIEGN FILM of ANY kind has ever been brought to the USA and radically altered from its' original form. I understand the specifics of the 80s and syndication and why they did it then...but...

In these times - why don't they just bring it over and sell it as MACROSS. With subs. And THAT'S ALL. ??

Gubaba

You said that I never irritated you or made you mad yet you continue to display disgust and frustration over the things I told you in PMsgs (even tho you reworded alot) but it is a clear indication you cannot let go of the past because you too sore over it,otherwise you would forget about it..By the way Gubaba I never posted the hate mail I got from you and others (that were very vulgar and candid),so in a sense I am trying to be the better person to let things go while you harp on the past problems because you are too sore to see me as a Macross fan too. And I am not trying to display Seto Kaiba as a crutch or "body gaurd" here but he does know I been interested in Macross for a good while now.

So Gubaba,I am not here to prove myself to anyone,just trying to get along as a Macross fan so you GOML

I agree about Gubaba sounding sore. But can you blame him? Put yourself in his position. He knows Japanese, he buisies himself translating Macross books and episodes. He does it all for free. And he has encyclopedic knowledge of stuff which lots of us don't even know EXISTS, let alone stuff we remotely understand.

I'm not saying he deserves to be worshiped by fiat - nobody does. But if you get to know him a little bit, I think any remotely sane, let alone semi-intelligent person, would immediately develop an immense respect and affection for him, rather than call him a Nazi or a son-of-a-hoe or whatever else it was you called him.

I'm not saying this to put you down Pizza - and I for one appreciate what you wrote here, because it is a decent way of proceeding "hey, forget the past, let's have peace."

Ultimately it is true that the memory of some harm done will always remain and if people are going to live in peace then they MUST forget the past...

That said...

I don't think you fully understand how "sore" Gubaba could be if you called him out. And yeah, if he wrote bad PMs to you - then that sucks too - that doesn't help...

But it also means you must really have pushed his buttons the wrong way, because the guy is not only a fountain of wisdom - but also very VERY generous and a really nice guy. Very helpful and nice. I honestly can't imagine him being mean to anybody or writing in anger to anybody (although I guess it happens to all of us).

In any event - hope you guys work out your differences in your PMs. I'm always in favor of burrying hatchets.

Really, it's the attitude that all of the material produced between '87 and '01 isn't really Robotech and isn't worth bothering with that motivated all of the witch hunting that's gone on ever since the fanbase went online. Initially, pretty much any mention of material from the comics or novels in a debate or discussion just got dismissed as irrelevant, but eventually it turned hostile. By the time I'd registered on Robotech.com, just mentioning something from the McKinney novels or the old comics was enough to make participants on both sides round on you and tell you to take your totally irrelevant crap elsewhere. It was only after they scourged the McKinneyists and Spanglerists from Robotech.com that they turned on the fans who also enjoyed the original Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada. They lumped the dissatisfied fans in there too under the assumption that they were secretly Macross fans working to undermine Robotech, and started trying to get the lot of them banned.

Now that they've scourged the "Macross Purist Trolls" from their midst, they've once again rounded on each other and started fights among fans who prefer one saga to another, or who like one character and can't stand to see him or her criticized in any way.

It's really hard to muster any enthusiasm for Robotech at all when the fanbase has spent at least 10 of the last 25 years tearing itself to pieces over matters of personal preference, and the franchise's creators haven't had an original idea in at least 24 years.

Now, if Tommy had taken that approach with Robotech, the fanbase might not be the colossal mess of infighting it is today. Of course, the old comics are so badly written, so shot through with internal inconsistencies, and incompatible with each other in so many cases that the only way to divide them up into universes would be to make each and every title its own universe... and that kind of defeats the point of doing it in the first place. The inconsistent nature of the work done without oversight back when Harmony Gold was whoring the license out to whoever wanted it essentially doomed all of comics to being little more than a widely scorned collection of non-canon side stories that don't matter to the "one true timeline".

Oh they knew... they just want to keep living the lie that Carl Macek, and later Tommy Yune, were selling... that the originals are inferior, unpopular shows that were vastly improved by their inclusion in Robotech. By the time the 90's rolled around, the only people left in the Robotech fanbase were the obsessive fans who were convinced for whatever reason that Robotech was the best show ever, and continued to buy the weak comics and novels which kept the franchise limping along. Those are the people who would've found the idea that Robotech wasn't just as good as, or better than, the Japanese originals profoundly offensive. All but the most obsessed among them gave up eventually after Macek and Harmony Gold's licensees produced a seemingly never-ending succession of failures.

Some folks close to Harmony Gold have alluded to Warner having been motivated to pick up the Robotech license by a desire to get in on the frankly ridiculous amounts of money Paramount's live-action Transformers was making and do it cheaply rather than any actual belief that Robotech was popular. I think the general school of thought was that they'd take a title people vaguely remembered from the 80's, redo it, and roll it out for a revival in hopes of making scads of money with a mindless summer action flick that preys on nostalgia. More fool them, of course, since they picked a real dud full of material they can't legally use.

You mean like a MMORPG, something like Habbo Hotel, or what? Either way, it costs money to develop crap like that, and Harmony Gold has likely been convinced that it's just not worth the trouble. After all, they went to the trouble of having a dice rolling system added to their forums so people could play the new Palladium RPG... and NOBODY's playing. The dice roll system just became the topic-bumping spam method of choice in the areas it was enabled in. Similarly, their attempt at online console gameplay, Robotech: Invasion, sold bugger-all and the game was so utterly lackluster that within weeks of it going on sale it was virtually impossible to find an online game to play in and Harmony Gold had the servers taken down because they weren't being used.

Wow.

This is all really interesting to read Seto. They actually went after people who referenced the novels? WTF?! That would be like if Beast Wars fans tried to purge G1 fans or if Movie fans tried to purse Animated fans...

Do they realize that this is the INTERNET and that it's possible - on an internet forum - to have various dedicated threads? Like..."Classic Robotech" thread and "Modern Robotech Thread" -

I mean - I would understand it if this was a fan website with die-hard Shadow Chronicles lovers or die-hard ..whatever... but...Harmony Gold should know it has an interest in perpetuating the ENTIRE Robotech mythology...not just some part of it...

And yeah - it does sound like somebody just pulled the wool over people's eyes in warner..."look transformers...money...make Robotech..."

I don't think it'll happen though.

Transformers capitalized mainly on doing something that's never been done before in terms of the CGI robots. To the extent that they captured such a large crowd thanks to those effects - those people are NOT going to pay as much to see Robotech doing the same thing basically. Robotech LAM could ONLY sell well if it had a powerful and moving story - like Macross.

But I always believed that some stories are just best told in ANIME and not live action. I dunno...we'll see.

Uxi

I will have to use some of Memo's powers to say this,allow me to put on a fish sombrero and raise keyboard and yell "Captain CAAAAAAAAPS LOOOOOOOCK"

OKAY WB ACQUIRED THE RIGHTS FROM HARMONY GOLD TO MAKE A LAM THAT PUT SHADOW RISING

KEEPS TOYNAMI AS A PRODUCT COMPANY FOR ROBOTECH

SHADOW RISING BEEN ON HIATUS FOR SAKES OF THE RLAM

STEVE SAID AT A CONVENTION RECENTLY THAT HG TRIED TO LICENSE MACROSS 7 AND WOULD LOVE TO BRING MORE MACROSS SO THAT IS A NICE MOVE FOR THE FANS

ACCORDING TO SOME ONE THE SHADOW BETAS ARE CANCELLED

ROBOTECH IS GETTING A MOVIE MADE BY WB

MY BEST FRIEND ON EARTH KEVIN MCKEEVER SAID THINGS ARE HAPPENING

WE HAVE A WEBSITE THAT HAS HAD PRODUCTS OUT OF STOCK FOR MONTHS AND WE LOVE SHADOW CHRONICLES BUT TOO STOOPID TO ADD SHADOW CHRONICKES TO RT.COM WEBSITE BUT WE STILL LOVE IT

ROBOTECH REPEATS THE SAME NEWS AT CONVENTIONS

ROBOTECH WILL GET A MOVIE MADE BY WB

Huh?

Pete

[Uxi]

Thats the obvious solution, but definitely not one that people would want to hear. Especially if Reba West tries to sing again.

Right, I use her as allegory not as what I imagine they would actually do. I just mean use alternate music with English speaking/singing actors/musicians. With this economy there have got to be more than a few musicians trying to cut their teeth. Hopefully they'd be better than B-grade but I expect HG would do the cheapest possible

[Seto Kaiba]

This is all really interesting to read Seto. They actually went after people who referenced the novels? WTF?! That would be like if Beast Wars fans tried to purge G1 fans or if Movie fans tried to purse Animated fans...

To such a degree that Steve Yun had to descend from "on high" (or maybe just "while high") and issue a proclamation that bagging on people for referencing or talking about the novels or comics was a no-no and lay out ground rules to quash the fighting. If you want, the thread in question is still pinned in the Robotech Series & Stories section of the Robotech.com message boards.

Do they realize that this is the INTERNET and that it's possible - on an internet forum - to have various dedicated threads? Like..."Classic Robotech" thread and "Modern Robotech Thread" -

Well, that's debatable... particularly since, as I've said, many of the fans regard the material from the late 80's and the 90's as having no significant redeeming merits of any kind, and Harmony Gold's representatives have essentially moved that material to non-canon status citing the lack of oversight in its creation. They're not considered "real Robotech", so I guess a philosophy of live and let live might not have occurred to the people denouncing them as weak attempts to make a quick buck. Even Steve Yun's pronouncement didn't stop people from raiding each other's threads to deliver verbal thrashings to their source material of choice.

I mean - I would understand it if this was a fan website with die-hard Shadow Chronicles lovers or die-hard ..whatever... but...Harmony Gold should know it has an interest in perpetuating the ENTIRE Robotech mythology...not just some part of it...

Why bother perpetuating the parts that contradict the direction they've chosen for the franchise or that use potentially problematic material like art from Macross: Flashback 2012 and Macross Plus? It's just an invitation to more trouble. As far as they're concerned, the most that those old titles are worth is a brief mention in the bibliography they didn't think was worth adding to the site until about 2007.

NB: Just so you get the context of the above remark, many MANY Robotech comics produced under Eternity/Malibu, Academy, and Antarctic made a habit of tracing art from Macross shows, publications, and toy boxes that weren't related to Robotech in any way. Among the pilfered designs were the DYRL variants of the VF-1 Valkyrie, the VF-4 Lightning III (erroneously rebadged "US SPACY"), Captain Higgins from Macross Plus, and many others. There are also many "original" designs in the comics that are clearly based on designs from Macross... several of which were slightly redesigned versions of the VF-2JA Icarus and VF-19F Excalibur.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Uxi]

Macross is a story about how a beautiful singer used the power of love and song to restore culture to an alien race that was robbed of its' humanity by the excesses of science, and to alert humanity to the need to preserve culture in order to save humanity from a similar fate to that of the aliens while Robotech was about Rick Hunter shooting aliens and a big war. The diffference in favor of Macross is so clear in my mind, that one would really have to be little more than a FANATICAL mecha-war-lover to prefer Robotech.

Well that's simplifying Robotech more than a little. Robotech was about 3 generations dealing with events that all happened off-camera, as it were. Masters jacking the Invid, Zor feeling guilty about it and heads back to Earth. Particularly if you buy the theory/story (not sure if it was ever canon) about the SDF-3 getting time-warped back in time and starting the Robotech Masters in the first place.

The scope is bigger and it's more egotistical to have Earth be more than a coincidental encounter it was in SDF-Macross. Macross has since seemed to go back and forth and made humanity some special project of the Protoculture (Bird-Man and Mayan), but initially in SDF:M, humanity seemed irrelevant to the big picture.

1) I agree that the basic concept of the Sentinels is sound. I always LOVED the RPG; the cover was so evocative and the idea of taking the adventure into outerspace and exploring an alien planet - going "off-Earth" - is a good idea. The problem is that the story falls apart later. I read McKinney's Planet Killers which concludes Sentinels and it just gets progressively worse as the story goes along. There's too much of a rush to a final epic battle. It's almost TOO stereotypical in terms of how the story progresses, and by making it so operetic, they sacrifice the tragic element. Still - the general concepts are decent.

Right, I'd expect most of the general outline to go in the rubbish bin with the giant bears and amazons and what not. Ideally they would plan the progression to be a multi-year arc in fighting the Regent, maybe if they're really bold a 7-8 year outline (possibly they could "skip" years or fast forward and then do flash backs, etc. That would all be in the writing. Definitely shouldn't plan on finishing the fight to Tirol even up to no less than 2-3 years minimum. The liberation of Tirol is always supposed to be the 'second act' as it were, though...

2) Harmony Gold seem incapable of "making nice" with anybody. As for all of those ideas of "Robotech: DYRL" and "Robotech: Frontier" ...

You know....

To my mind NO successful western anime license has raped the product that it is bringing over from Japan. In fact, no successful FORIEGN FILM of ANY kind has ever been brought to the USA and radically altered from its' original form. I understand the specifics of the 80s and syndication and why they did it then...but...

In these times - why don't they just bring it over and sell it as MACROSS. With subs. And THAT'S ALL. ??

Gatchman was raped just as bad, if not worse. I was a big of Battle of the Planets before Robotech came out, but it's also nowhere near as mature. Voltron is also pretty horrid, especially in retrospect. BotP had multiple time slots, though still out of prime time IIRC.

In either case, though, I don't imagine those are exclusive options. Bring it over, offer unaltered and try to blend it in with their larger thing. If the numerous hilarious Hitler/Downfall clips on Youtube have shown anything is that the visual medium is easily adapted to whatever story you want to tell. Obviously, we'd all prefer it be GOOD story telling...

[Pizza the Hutt]

Seto

Ya that was a "Captain Caveman" spoof I did since I read somewhere folks call Memo captain caps lock.

This just in

Memo told Robotech fans not to let Robotech run their lives and said to move on to other cartoons.I was shocked that I read that here:

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/5-robotech...10&start=90

Seems like I am not the only fan who lost or losing interest in Robotech,

And does this kind of make Memo a hypocrite? he tells people not to let Robotech run their lives but it seems to be doing a good job running his life, for example he goes to every convention in california,makes sure no one says bad things about Robotech,HG or his buddies Steve,Tommy and Kevin or his buddies in that d.O.l. clan. Maybe he is still a security officer and is doing security at one of harmony gold's appartment complex they have.So maybe HG staff is living free at one of the appartments. So that is how Memo acquired so much deep info on HG.

[Gubaba]

Why bother perpetuating the parts that contradict the direction they've chosen for the franchise or that use potentially problematic material like art from Macross: Flashback 2012 and Macross Plus? It's just an invitation to more trouble. As far as they're concerned, the most that those old titles are worth is a brief mention in the bibliography they didn't think was worth adding to the site until about 2007.

Again, I wish they'd take a page from starblazers.com's book in how to present the whole history is an appealing, clear, and educational way...but they've made it repeatedly obvious that they don't WANT educated fans.

Kinda sad when the only way they feel they have an advantage over the original version is to spread disinformation about it.

[azrael]

Again, I wish they'd take a page from starblazers.com's book in how to present the whole history is an appealing, clear, and educational way...but they've made it repeatedly obvious that they don't WANT educated fans.

Judging by the people at their convention panels...

Frankly, a good 50%-75% of issue would probably go away if they gave up on Macross being the focal point of their narrative and just write their own frakin narrative. But obviously they weren't capable of that considering Shadow Chronicles. As I've said, even the people who made Astro Plan have more creative balls than HG. And they were probably paid less too.

[Gubaba]

Judging by the people at their convention panels...

Frankly, a good 50%-75% of issue would probably go away if they gave up on Macross being the focal point of their narrative and just write their own frakin narrative. But obviously they weren't capable of that considering Shadow Chronicles. As I've said, even the people who made Astro Plan have more creative balls than HG. And they were probably paid less too.

Well...realistically, how do they get away from Macross (and Southern Cross and Mospeada) without rebooting EVERYTHING and creating a Robotech-In-Name-Only?

For most people who watched Robotech as kids and kinda vaguely recall that it was good, Robotech and Macross are synonymous. You get away from the source material, and you risk turning off not only the die-hard "Robotech-is-genius-so-don't-screw-with-it" fans but also the casual fans, who would watch the movie and think, "huh...this isn't anything like the Robotech *I* remember."

There is only one way I could see it working: if (like "Battlestar Galactica") the new version is SO smart and compelling that it blows the old version out of the water. The old fans would still complain, but it could grab tons of new people. It's a big gamble, though, and you really need top-notch people on every level of production in order to pull it off.

[VFTF1]

SETO SAYS:

particularly since, as I've said, many of the fans regard the material from the late 80's and the 90's as having no significant redeeming merits of any kind, and Harmony Gold's representatives have essentially moved that material to non-canon status citing the lack of oversight in its creation. They're not considered "real Robotech", so I guess a philosophy of live and let live might not have occurred to the people denouncing them as weak attempts to make a quick buck.

Now... that's something else I find..bizarre.

Everybody knew, to run with the Transformers analogy, that Transformes was initially nothing more than a 4 issue comic book meant to advertise toys, and that Hasbro came up with the idea of selling toys by marketing them through "exciting" comics and cartoons aimed at kids.

It is NOT considered in bad taste to state this fact amongst Transformers fans - and it is a practice that is continued today and everybody understands that it is necessary to keep the franchise running.

Furthermore, some of the most memorable Transformers comics, written by Bob Budiansky (who actually came up with all the names, wrote all the tech-specs and wrote all the comics up to issue 50), were all TOTALLY MADE ON THE FLY - aka "with no creative oversight."

Budiansky himself - in numerous interviews - can hardly even remember what the hell he wrote, even though legions of fans (like me) remember every minute detail and compare him to Shakespeare. In modern interviews, Budiansky gets Transformers characters that he wrote about confused, he often says that stories were written without much thought, that he didn't care about the comic, that he wanted to do something more serious. When explaining one of my favorite stories he did, he says "I saw Terminator and so kind of copied it."

This in no way dilutes from people's enjoyment of his books or of Transformers.

Why did HG feel it necessary to push its' original work - the stuff the started it all for lots of Americans - under the carpet?

Sounds to me like some people's egos just got involved. Whoever runs things there now and is behind Shadow Chroncles clearly wanted to use the franchise as a springboard for his brilliant ego - Robotech the epic by XXX...

I dunno...

It's just wierd...it's all wierd. On every single issue - these guys have it backwards....

Pete

[VFTF1]

Changing gears a bit - here's an interesting measurement of the people over at Robotech.com. This is their "Anime, Sci-Fi, Etc" forum:

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/messages.php?id=17

The topics with the majority of posts are about:

Avatar

Superman

Star Trek

NOT ONE ANIME.

There are a couple of Gundam threads - but the post count there is no where near the posts for the above three non-anime, generic sci-fi - out of which one (Avatar) might just be a fad (because it's new, so we don't know if it will have a truly epic lasting impact), one if a generic sci-fi (Star Trek - sure it's good..but..it's kind of a given that a sci-fi forum will have a Star Trek thread) and one ...kind of sucks...or at least...should NOT be in the top three popular threads in a sci-fi/Anime forum...Superman? Huh? ...

As for anime - other than Gundam and Macross Frontier ...NOTHING.

These people don't watch anime. They have nothing to do with Japanese otaku, they are not interested in anime culture. It's all foriegn to them....

at least that's the impression I get from this forum.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Changing gears a bit - here's an interesting measurement of the people over at Robotech.com. This is their "Anime, Sci-Fi, Etc" forum:

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/messages.php?id=17

The topics with the majority of posts are about:

Avatar

Superman

Star Trek

NOT ONE ANIME.

There are a couple of Gundam threads - but the post count there is no where near the posts for the above three non-anime, generic sci-fi - out of which one (Avatar) might just be a fad (because it's new, so we don't know if it will have a truly epic lasting impact), one if a generic sci-fi (Star Trek - sure it's good..but..it's kind of a given that a sci-fi forum will have a Star Trek thread) and one ...kind of sucks...or at least...should NOT be in the top three popular threads in a sci-fi/Anime forum...Superman? Huh? ...

As for anime - other than Gundam and Macross Frontier ...NOTHING.

These people don't watch anime. They have nothing to do with Japanese otaku, they are not interested in anime culture. It's all foriegn to them....

at least that's the impression I get from this forum.

Pete

That's not true...Look here:

EVANGELION!

HONNEAMISE!

AQUARION!

ASTRO PLAN!

ORGUSS/RANMA!!

[taksraven]

Wow.

This is all really interesting to read Seto. They actually went after people who referenced the novels? WTF?! That would be like if Beast Wars fans tried to purge G1 fans or if Movie fans tried to purse Animated fans...

As a Beast Wars fan, I think that I would happily purge G1 fans or any others for that matter. Beast Wars was that superior to the rest of the TF franchise.

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

As a Beast Wars fan, I think that I would happily purge G1 fans or any others for that matter. Beast Wars was that superior to the rest of the TF franchise.

Taksraven

So...you'd also purge The Agenda from Beast Wars, since it features G1 Ravage, Megatron, Optimus Prime, the Ark... and also is the climactic "reveal all" of the entire series?

In any case - my point was only that the solution that Transformers fan websites have for this is to just have seperate forums for all the different incarnations of the show - so if someone really doesn't like something - they aren't forced to mingle/mix with it and can stay with what they like...

Re: Gubaba Links -I'm opening them now - thanks!

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

For most people who watched Robotech as kids and kinda vaguely recall that it was good, Robotech and Macross are synonymous. You get away from the source material, and you risk turning off not only the die-hard "Robotech-is-genius-so-don't-screw-with-it" fans but also the casual fans, who would watch the movie and think, "huh...this isn't anything like the Robotech *I* remember."

Remember that they've tried that before... it was called Robotech 3000 and it went over like a mercury-filled lead balloon when they trotted the teaser trailer out to show it off. The proposal to just start fresh and abandon their focus on Macross characters and merchandise sounds like a good idea on paper... to us... but to Harmony Gold that's totally out of the question. Their primary market is Macross goods, and the fans don't give a toss about a Robotech show unless Rick Hunter's involved somehow... the only thing Robotech is currently selling on is the ongoing adventures of the Macross Saga cast. It's been that way since 1986.

Why did HG feel it necessary to push its' original work - the stuff the started it all for lots of Americans - under the carpet?

Sounds to me like some people's egos just got involved. Whoever runs things there now and is behind Shadow Chroncles clearly wanted to use the franchise as a springboard for his brilliant ego - Robotech the epic by XXX...

I doubt it's anything as simple as someone's ego running amok.

Essentially, the reason Harmony Gold pushed all the low-quality licensed materials from the late 80s and the 90s "under the carpet" was because there was absolutely no way, rational or otherwise, to make them fit with the original series, let alone the material they intended to produce later. Doing so would've introduced a temporal clusterfart the likes of which we've never seen before. It'd be like trying to undo ALL of the retcons in Marvel's history and splice all the timelines into one universe. It just won't work. The novels and comics were made non-canon out of necessity. It doesn't help that many times different comic lines by the same publisher seemed to be set in different versions of the Robotech universe... often with histories that didn't quite match up with the TV series or the novels... and understandably so, as several comics were less original storytelling and more ripoff free-for-alls with whatever sci-fi story happened to be handy and popular at the time.

These people don't watch anime. They have nothing to do with Japanese otaku, they are not interested in anime culture. It's all foriegn to them....

at least that's the impression I get from this forum.

It doesn't really help that the moderators there are the thought police and the Terms of Use are so restrictive that you can't talk about anything more mature than Barney and Friends without having to worry about the mods kicking your shins off for "potty talk". Like BlackRose dubbed it years ago... Robotech truly is Baby's First Macross... and Harmony Gold is trying to run the official home of the franchise like their audience is a tenth of their actual age.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Saraphys]

There are a couple of Gundam threads - but the post count there is no where near the posts for the above three non-anime, generic sci-fi - out of which one (Avatar) might just be a fad (because it's new, so we don't know if it will have a truly epic lasting impact),

Yes...it IS just a fad... There's always a big deal about the latest CGI-blockbuster, but wait a few months, and they'll be on to the next one!

But by the Gods...DONT tell them their just having a fad; they'll crucify you as if you were the fecking anti-christ...or, as the case may be, Macross-Purist-Pedophile-Nazi...

(yes, i have some experiance with those dredges of humanity...)

[Einherjar]

I think people are forgetting a very important question even before thoughts of going anywhere with Robotech in any form can realistically start; how are they going to animate it and where are they going to get the resources to fund it? In fact, who wants to work with HG besides WB and Tatsunoko, who they have only distinct relationships with at the moment?

[VFTF1]

Re: Ret-conning out the novels etc:

I understand why they ret-conned them. I don't understand why the purged the fandom of people who like them. It would be like Hasbro purging the fandom of the fans of the various incarnations of Transformers - makes no sense. Or - hell...look - Marvel comics (since you brought them up) publishes those GREAT anthologies of the original Marvel comics from the 60s and 70s with the original adventures of our favorite super heroes. I remember when I lived in NYC, I used to go to borders or the equivalent and sit down and just sit there for HOURS reading those - Hulk, Spiderman, Silver Surfer...I really really loved them.

HG could ret-con whatever and make a unified new modern rendition - sure. But why purge your fandom of people who like the old stuff? It makes no sense. Unless these folks are so crazy that they turned it into a war of "new stuff is not "real" RObotech" ... like you said...

strange...very emotional fandom - these people !

Re: Avatar is a Fad -

Well - I'm not going to comment because I haven't watched it. And I'll be the first to admit that I haven't watched it because of that blue ....cat woman thing...or whatever the hell it is. It looks ugly. It looks like something out of Willie Wonka's Chocolate Factory - that kid after eating the blue berry pies or whatever the hell he ate...cross that with a cat and a remotely disfigured porn star...

Plus I'm not into 3D...never have been. I like art, 2-D art, animated art, line art, drawings, paintings - hand crafted art. I have nothing against CGI on principle - but Avatar has been advertised as follows:

3D CGI!!!

I keep hearing the adds harping on these two themes and I'm just like...um...I don't like either one - and it bothers me that I can't find any review or public opinion on the radio when I drive that says anything about the plot. It's just 3D CGI! 3D CGI! Shiiit. Just make a 20 second movie about a 3D CGI tree blowing in the wind then...

Pete

[Funkenstein]

Isnt that what Macross Zero was?

[Seto Kaiba]

Re: Ret-conning out the novels etc:

I understand why they ret-conned them. I don't understand why the purged the fandom of people who like them. [...] HG could ret-con whatever and make a unified new modern rendition - sure. But why purge your fandom of people who like the old stuff? It makes no sense. Unless these folks are so crazy that they turned it into a war of "new stuff is not "real" RObotech" ... like you said...

Well... it wasn't Harmony Gold who purged the fandom of the people who liked the McKinney novels, it was the many fans who didn't like the novels and found their many departures from the story of the animated Robotech series pointless. Usually the fights would start as innocent debate/discussion threads about particular characters, plot points, and/or mecha in the TV series and someone would drag up the novels and be shouted down for it. On rare occasions, someone would start a thread about the novels and people would inundate the thread with complaints about how the novels made all kinds of nonsensical and needless departures from the original story. Either way, it usually ended in people on both sides heaping verbal abuse on each other while the moderators waded in to restore order with their banhammers. The McKinneyists would generally seek safer ports elsewhere while the Purists would either beg for the lifting of their ban or just register again under a new name and pick up where they left off.

For Harmony Gold to redo the novels and make a modern rendition of them, they'd need to find a writer. One of the two guys who used to write under the name Jack McKinney is dead, and I don't know what became of the other one. All the same, that would take time, money, and effort, and the reputation of the novels among the remains of the fandom isn't exactly great, so the most effort they're willing to put into them is printing omnibus editions that exclude the books that cover the time between sagas and the Sentinels storyarc.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

For Harmony Gold to redo the novels and make a modern rendition of them, they'd need to find a writer. One of the two guys who used to write under the name Jack McKinney is dead, and I don't know what became of the other one.

James Luceno is currently in the Star Wars tie-in stable of writers. I'm not sure if writing Star Wars novels is big bucks or not (I'm guessing not), but one can at least count on getting one's books on the New York Times Bestseller list for a short while...as such, he's probably beyond HG's current means.

But based on the excellence of his "Return of Rick Hunter from the Black Hole" fanfic, I nominate VFTF1 to be Robotech's official chronicler!

[VFTF1]

James Luceno is currently in the Star Wars tie-in stable of writers. I'm not sure if writing Star Wars novels is big bucks or not (I'm guessing not), but one can at least count on getting one's books on the New York Times Bestseller list for a short while...as such, he's probably beyond HG's current means.

But based on the excellence of his "Return of Rick Hunter from the Black Hole" fanfic, I nominate VFTF1 to be Robotech's official chronicler!

STILL WROKING ON TITLE. SUGGESTIONS HAPPILY SEEN. OPTIONS -

1. RICK HUNTER RETURNS FROM THE BLACK HOLE

2) THE RETURN FROM THE BLACK HOLE OF RICK HUNTER

3, RETURNING FROM THE BLACK HOLE ITS RICK HUNTER!!

I LIKE THREE BECAUSE IT IS EXCITING. BUT HG SAYS THIS WILL BE PROBABLY TITLE FOR WARNER LAM SO CANT USE FOR MY BOOK.

ALSO THINKING OF SEEQUILS BECAUZ ITS AN EPIC TRYLOGY LIKE STAR WARS SO HEAR THEY IS:

1. RICK HUNTER RETURNS FROM THE BLACK HOLE 2

2) THE RETURN FROM THE BLACK HOLE OF RICK HUNTER PART II

3, RETURNING FROM THE BLACK HOLE ITS RICK HUNTER!! (2)

SEE I KNOW YOU WILL SAY IF HE IS RETURNING FROM THE BLACK HOLE IN 1, HOW CUM IN 2 HE IS STILL RETURNING? AH! BECAUSE SPOILER:

OF CORSE RICK HUNTER DOES NOT RETURN IN 1! HG TELLS ME HE CAN NEVER RETURN FR REAL!

PETE

Edited February 19, 2010 by VFTF1

[Uxi]

We'll never see either Hikaru Ichijo or Rick Hunter again?

[VFTF1]

We'll never see either Hikaru Ichijo or Rick Hunter again?

IN MY BOKE ACTUALY I AM DOING WHAT IS MY OWN BIG IDEA - COMBINING OSM W/ROBOTECH. HIKRUO IJICHIO IS GOING TO BE IN THE BOKE WITH RICK HUNTER.

IT WILL BE PART THRE OF MY TRYLOGY. CANT SPOIL TO MUCH NOW BUT WILL SAY THIS:

IN PART THER THERE WILL BE A RESCUING OF RICK HUNER FROM THE BALCK WHOLE. TITLES:

HIKRU IJGHO RESCUING FROM THE BALC WHOLE OF RICK HUNTRE III

SEE IT TO BE LIEVE YOU ME! HEH HEHE HEHEH

PETE

[Uxi]

Well...realistically, how do they get away from Macross (and Southern Cross and Mospeada) without rebooting EVERYTHING and creating a Robotech-In-Name-Only?

I mentioned one way already, and that's revisiting the Sentinels and moving beyond from what happens there. REF finds they are outnumbered and outgunned trying to fight the Regent's invid. Enlist all these conquered planets with their own mecha. After the Regis is beaten, they figure out that while they were fighting Invid "here" that other Invid conquered Earth. They send back the bulk of the REF and then it starts looking like Babylon 5 as the former subjects of the Masters/Invid start going at each other (or the 'Haydonites' pull their own plan like in SC, apparently).

Maybe throw an homage to an oddball Zentraedi here and there (IIRC there aren't thousands of Zentran fleets wondering around like in Macross, the Boddole Zer fleet was all there was).

But surely they could toss in lots of references to "Robotech Masters" replacing it in similar situations to wherever Macross uses "Protoculture."

Maybe Basara's song can power a Veritech?

For most people who watched Robotech as kids and kinda vaguely recall that it was good, Robotech and Macross are synonymous. You get away from the source material, and you risk turning off not only the die-hard "Robotech-is-genius-so-don't-screw-with-it" fans but also the casual fans, who would watch the movie and think, "huh...this isn't anything like the Robotech *I* remember."

There is only one way I could see it working: if (like "Battlestar Galactica") the new version is SO smart and compelling that it blows the old version out of the water. The old fans would still complain, but it could grab tons of new people. It's a big gamble, though, and you really need top-notch people on every level of production in order to pull it off.

That's possible. I despise retcons. They're better off just ignoring beyond the occassional oblique reference.

[Gubaba]

I mentioned one way already, and that's revisiting the Sentinels and moving beyond from what happens there. REF finds they are outnumbered and outgunned trying to fight the Regent's invid. Enlist all these conquered planets with their own mecha. After the Regis is beaten, they figure out that while they were fighting Invid "here" that other Invid conquered Earth. They send back the bulk of the REF and then it starts looking like Babylon 5 as the former subjects of the Masters/Invid start going at each other (or the 'Haydonites' pull their own plan like in SC, apparently).

Maybe throw an homage to an oddball Zentraedi here and there (IIRC there aren't thousands of Zentran fleets wondering around like in Macross, the Boddole Zer fleet was all there was).

But surely they could toss in lots of references to "Robotech Masters" replacing it in similar situations to wherever Macross uses "Protoculture."

Maybe Basara's song can power a Veritech?

I don't think throwing in Zentradi and Basara is the best way to get away from Macross...

That's possible. I despise retcons. They're better off just ignoring beyond the occassional oblique reference.

But, if it's a sequel, it would still be tied to the original 85, right? A reboot would be the only way to cast off all the original series references completely.

[Uxi]

So take the first paragraph and ignore everything else.

[Bri]

Well that's simplifying Robotech more than a little. Robotech was about 3 generations dealing with events that all happened off-camera, as it were. Masters jacking the Invid, Zor feeling guilty about it and heads back to Earth. Particularly if you buy the theory/story (not sure if it was ever canon) about the SDF-3 getting time-warped back in time and starting the Robotech Masters in the first place.

I think you just described the whole of Robotech in two sentences. A reboot is out of the question given the Tatsunoko-HG relationship. Without Tats support HG can not use any OSM, and without the OSM there just isn't much but Macek's sci-fi concept about a multigenerational conflict with a few alien races aliens and a time loop.

Well...realistically, how do they get away from Macross (and Southern Cross and Mospeada) without rebooting EVERYTHING and creating a Robotech-In-Name-Only?

For most people who watched Robotech as kids and kinda vaguely recall that it was good, Robotech and Macross are synonymous. You get away from the source material, and you risk turning off not only the die-hard "Robotech-is-genius-so-don't-screw-with-it" fans but also the casual fans, who would watch the movie and think, "huh...this isn't anything like the Robotech *I* remember."

There is only one way I could see it working: if (like "Battlestar Galactica") the new version is SO smart and compelling that it blows the old version out of the water. The old fans would still complain, but it could grab tons of new people. It's a big gamble, though, and you really need top-notch people on every level of production in order to pull it off.

The latter might be possible I guess, but not for HG given their ties. Assuming another company would want to do this, why would anyone want use the RT brand? They could just copy the concept just as easily but without the cheesy names.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Bri

[Seto Kaiba]

I mentioned one way already, and that's revisiting the Sentinels and moving beyond from what happens there.

Now that there's a losing proposition no matter how you slice it. In the final analysis it doesn't really matter what you do if you're revisiting Robotech II: the Sentinels, since the majority of Robotech fans tend to consider the whole Sentinels story arc to be goddamn stupid... and that's on a good day. Admittedly, if you actually sit down and read what Carl Macek intended for the story of Robotech II: the Sentinels, you'll probably end up conceding that they've got excellent grounds for saying so.

Essentially, what Carl Macek had planned for Robotech II: the Sentinels was that Exedore and co. filled the United Earth Gov't in on the Robotech Masters and what they were after. In response to this new threat, the REF builds a fleet headed up by a new SDF done up to look like a Zentradi warship in hopes of putting one over on the Robotech Masters long enough to open a dialogue. Of course, nothing is ever simple for these people, so when they actually arrive at Tirol they find it occupied by the Invid Regent's forces, who're looking for the protoculture matrix there despite them having already been informed by the Regess that the damn thing isn't there. So the REF launches a mission to liberate Tirol, wherein they meet Cabell and Rem, who placidly inform them that their whole mission is a waste of time because the Masters are probably most of the way to Earth by now, and the SDF-3's fold drive is a wreck. So they piss away a lot of time liberating alien homeworlds instead of fixing their ship and getting home to save Earth... all the while being busily backstabbed by some of their alien allies AND one of their own senior officers (General Edwards), both of whom couldn't possibly make their evil intentions more obvious without wearing a sandwich board that reads "HEY! SERIOUSLY EVIL DUDE HERE!". The moral of the story? That going to talk with the Robotech Masters was a farting waste of time that didn't accomplish dick and left the Earth open for two more alien invasions.

Let me sum up why revising Sentinels is a bad idea in just a few choice words from the original concept: Robot Unicorns, Space Rome, Invid Inorganics, "The Brain", T.R. Edwards, Jack Baker, The Sentinels Council, SDF-3 Pioneer.

It's with good reason that petitions to revive Robotech II: the Sentinels usually never get more than the same two dozen signatures... most fans immediate reaction to anything Sentinels-related is "KILL IT WITH FIRE!". Why would they react that way? Because, just like in Prelude, Sentinels makes fan favorite Rick Hunter out to be an idiot with a malformed three-inch-thick skull, a frankly unhealthy level of naivete, and a grasp of tactics that would've embarrassed a toddler.

When you take all that in context with the Shadow Chronicles, which IS, regardless of what anyone else might tell you, a continuation of Sentinels, you have to realize that Rick Hunter isn't just gullible... the boy has barely any mental activity at all. After some of the judgment calls he makes you'll be amazed the boy hasn't been sectioned on the grounds that he's too stupid for normal society.

Maybe throw an homage to an oddball Zentraedi here and there (IIRC there aren't thousands of Zentran fleets wondering around like in Macross, the Boddole Zer fleet was all there was).

Aside from the obvious legal problems stemming from the fact that the entire core cast of Robotech II is populated by designs that Harmony Gold can't legally use... the Zentradi issue is moot because they pretty much don't exist except for a brief panel or two in Prelude, where they're all blue eight-foot-tall giants.

I think you just described the whole of Robotech in two sentences. A reboot is out of the question given the Tatsunoko-HG relationship. Without Tats support HG can not use any OSM, and without the OSM there just isn't much but Macek's sci-fi concept about a multigenerational conflict with a few alien races aliens and a time loop.

Well, there's always the Sentinels aliens... they're the only aliens in RT who aren't part of the OSM. All the same, without the stories and characters of the OSM, Robotech's story really has no redeeming values. Macek's story is rather bland and samey.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Moly_Sigang]

NB: Just so you get the context of the above remark, many MANY Robotech comics produced under Eternity/Malibu, Academy, and Antarctic made a habit of tracing art from Macross shows, publications, and toy boxes that weren't related to Robotech in any way. Among the pilfered designs were the DYRL variants of the VF-1 Valkyrie, the VF-4 Lightning III (erroneously rebadged "US SPACY"), Captain Higgins from Macross Plus, and many others. There are also many "original" designs in the comics that are clearly based on designs from Macross... several of which were slightly redesigned versions of the VF-2JA Icarus and VF-19F Excalibur.

When you said 'original designs'*coughripoffcough* did you mean 'Wings Of Gibraltar' and 'Firestorm'? Now i wasn't able to read those comics, but base on what i read in the internet, the story was supposedly inspired from Macross Plus.

Now i do believe there's still a possibility to fix Robotech Sentinel, but it's gonna require a massive overhaul.

• First, finding a way to put the remaining Macross Saga characters on the back burner and instead focus more on Jack Baker, Karen Penn, Rem and other new characters.
• Make the Sentinels less goofy. The concept of some of the Sentinels are good but needs to ditch the 70's campness.
• At least make Edwards motivation clear. In the comics his motivation keeps changing from 'I'll get my revenge on the Hunters!' to 'I want to rule the Galaxy' to 'I'll do anything to save humanity, even if it's means allying with the aliens'. I swear, Edwards changes motivation more than Minmei changes boyfriends. Talking about Minmei...
• Giving the extra characters some relevance. I mean really, what's Minmei's purpose on the Sentinel other than regretting letting Rick go, and going on a boyfriend binge left and right?[
• New Veritech fighters. New Veritech Fighters. New Veritech Fighters.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[Uxi]

Now that there's a losing proposition no matter how you slice it. In the final analysis it doesn't really matter what you do if you're revisiting Robotech II: the Sentinels, since the majority of Robotech fans tend to consider the whole Sentinels story arc to be goddamn stupid... and that's on a good day. Admittedly, if you actually sit down and read what Carl Macek intended for the story of Robotech II: the Sentinels, you'll probably end up conceding that they've got excellent grounds for saying so.

What Macek intended is irrelevant to a revision of a project that (thankfully) never got off the ground.

Essentially, what Carl Macek had planned for Robotech II: the Sentinels was that Exedore and co. filled the United Earth Gov't in on the Robotech Masters and what they were after. In response to this new threat, the REF builds a fleet headed up by a new SDF done up to look like a Zentradi warship in hopes of putting one over on the Robotech Masters long enough to open a dialogue. Of course, nothing is ever simple for these people, so when they actually arrive at Tirol they find it occupied by the Invid Regent's forces, who're looking for the protoculture matrix there despite them having already been informed by the Regess that the damn thing isn't there. So the REF launches a mission to liberate Tirol, wherein they meet Cabell and Rem, who placidly inform them that their whole mission is a waste of time because the Masters are probably most of the way to Earth by now, and the SDF-3's fold drive is a wreck. So they piss away a lot of time liberating alien homeworlds instead of fixing their ship and getting home to save Earth... all the while being busily backstabbed by some of their alien allies AND one of their own senior officers (General Edwards), both of whom couldn't possibly make their evil intentions more obvious without wearing a sandwich board that reads "HEY! SERIOUSLY EVIL DUDE HERE!". The moral of the story? That going to talk with the Robotech Masters was a farting waste of time that didn't accomplish dick and left the Earth open for two more alien invasions.

Let me sum up why revising Sentinels is a bad idea in just a few choice words from the original concept: Robot Unicorns, Space Rome, Invid Inorganics, "The Brain", T.R. Edwards, Jack Baker, The Sentinels Council, SDF-3 Pioneer.

I already addressed that, on this very page.

"Re-use that concept but execute it better. Don't use silly cartoon aliens, can probably keep most of the names in place, but instead give them all some cool and unique mecha of their own while they fight the Regent and the Invid evolving a different direction than that of the Refles. Done right, it could be a legitimate sequel to Mospeada for the Japanese market (and a variant subtitled version released as a domestic 'exclusive' or limited edition). Get rid of the Southern Cross spandex and focus on Cyclones and the move from the regular Alpha/Beta to Shadow tech in response to the Invid. Still haven't seen Shadow Chronicles but from what I hear it sounds like a travesty, so this would be an opportunity to either "certain point of view" or just redo it."

Done correctly, they would position it as a true sequel to Mospeada (that would be released as such without any RT connotations in Japan). A next generation mecha replacing the Legioss/Tread, etc as well as more monstrous looking Invid (which would the direction I'd expect the character of the regent to take them). No Robot Unicorns or Space Rome and make guys like TR Edwards legitimately complex (think a mixture of Mackey from The Shield with Jack's Col. Jessop from a Few Good Men - the guy who does unsavory things but also does good things now and then, too), but take some new ideas for weird and fantastic aliens and give them some cool mecha and lots of well scripted fighting with a fair amount of Itano Circus.

The general concept of going to Tirol, finding it under siege by the Invid, fighting off the Regent, etc is perfectly valid. Obviously previous ideas could be used as red herrings if not outright turned on it's head, particularly depending if they handled it like originally purported (SDF-3 founding the Robotech Masters). Thats' where good writing would come in. I know that's probably vain given the people we're talking about, but just because the original idea execution was redonkulous doesn't mean it couldn't be rethought and well executed after the proper planning.

Incidentally, I like the red bulby SDF-3 design. It arguably makes more sense than the New Macross Class Battle carrier. As much as I love Battle 7 and watching Battle Frontier bitch slap Battle Galaxy, it made no sense to transform. They could do away with the "laser arms" and make the thing carry a few sub-craft (similar in concept to the ARMDs but most likely Mospeada-derived).

[VF5SS]

or you could stop trying to fix the broken tv set that is the robotech franchise

it keeps messing up the audio, cycling to random channels, and nothing is ever clear

[Gubaba]

Gubaba

You said that I never irritated you or made you mad yet you continue to display disgust and frustration over the things I told you in PMsgs (even tho you reworded alot) but it is a clear indication you cannot let go of the past because you too sore over it,otherwise you would forget about it..By the way Gubaba I never posted the hate mail I got from you and others (that were very vulgar and candid),so in a sense I am trying to be the better person to let things go while you harp on the past problems because you are too sore to see me as a Macross fan too. And I am not trying to display Seto Kaiba as a crutch or "body gaurd" here but he does know I been interested in Macross for a good while now.

So Gubaba,I am not here to prove myself to anyone,just trying to get along as a Macross fan so you GOML

Just a clarification:

When I presented your PMs, I reworded nothing. Simple copy and paste.

And I never wrote anything vulgar to you. You might have me confused with someone else.

[Einherjar]

I'm not sure what to think about a retcon or revival to Robotech. There is a chance, especially in the new, unexplored territories that they want to go to, that a lot of the ideas are just going to be coming out of the creator's butts to keep fans' interest. Unfortunately, that's probably the situation Robotech is currently in now, ideas coming out of untalented people's butts and calling it epic.

All in all, no one wins when a creative team is forced to be imaginative with a story with additional content for any particular reason, especially when it isn't planned well in advance and you didn't even create the damn material you started with in the first place.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Einherjar

[taksraven]

So...you'd also purge The Agenda from Beast Wars, since it features G1 Ravage, Megatron, Optimus Prime, the Ark... and also is the climactic "reveal all" of the entire series?

Nah, I would leave all the G1 stuff in Beast Wars. Just to tease the fans.

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

When you said 'original designs'*coughripoffcough* did you mean 'Wings Of Gibraltar' and 'Firestorm'? Now i wasn't able to read those comics, but base on what i read in the internet, the story was supposedly inspired from Macross Plus.

It wasn't exactly my intention to identify each and every title that uses material from Macross shows that have nothing whatsoever to do with Robotech, as I'd be here all week if I did. You are, however, correct in assuming Robotech: Wings of Gibraltar and Robotech: Firestorm are two such offenders. Wings of Gibraltar was particularly bad since many of its characters were traced from the movie Independence Day, and each and every VF-1 Valkyrie that appears in its pages was traced from DYRL line art. Robotech: the Misfits was also an extremely prolific "borrower" of Macross material, as that's where the VF-4 erroneously labeled "US Spacy" and several characters from Macross Plus (easily distinguished by their different uniforms) show up prominently.

Now i do believe there's still a possibility to fix Robotech Sentinel, but it's gonna require a massive overhaul.

Okay, as someone who's familiar with all three incarnations of Sentinels, I'll indulge you on this note. Let's see what you've come up with.

First, finding a way to put the remaining Macross Saga characters on the back burner and instead focus more on Jack Baker, Karen Penn, Rem and other new characters.

Kind of a tall order, since the expeditionary fleet is under the command of Admiral Lisa Hunter (nee Hayes), the mechanized contingent is under the command of Major General Rick Hunter, with involvement from both Max and Miriya Sterling, Breetai, and Exedore. Of course, in at least two of the three versions of the whole Robotech II: the Sentinels story arc several major plot points depend on having Linn Minmei stow away on the SDF-3 during its departure. Having it tie seamlessly in to Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles also requires the presence and visibility of Rick Hunter, Lisa Hunter, Exedore, Breetai, Dr. Lang, Linn Minmei, and Linn Kyle... the latter of whom ends up dead, and the scene where it happens serving to tie in the nominal end of the Sentinels comics (Book IV) with with start of Robotech: Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles.

[*]Make the Sentinels less goofy. The concept of some of the Sentinels are good but needs to ditch the 70's campness.

Good luck with that... while Tommy might've decanonized most of the Sentinels gibberish, unfortunately the whole "Sentinels Council" thing and the designs of all but two of the aliens involved came through completely untouched. The only aliens that were redesigned were the Kabarrian ambassador L'Ron (pictured in taksraven's avatar), and Haydonite ambassador Veidt, who went from looking like a really bad art deco bust moving of its own accord to the Hal 9000 in a red robe.* If you intend to remove the 70's camp from Robotech II: the Sentinels, the task you're embarking on is called 'burning the whole thing and starting from scratch'.

* On an unrelated side note, the red robes the Haydonites wear are the subject of an interesting error on Tommy Yune's part. In the Prelude comic, all members of the Sentinels Council (incl. Lisa Hunter) wear the same red robes... yet in the Shadow Chronicles movie, the robes are what EVERY Haydonite wears. Laziness, or Haydonite tailoring... you be the judge.

[*]At least make Edwards motivation clear. In the comics his motivation keeps changing from 'I'll get my revenge on the Hunters!' to 'I want to rule the Galaxy' to 'I'll do anything to save humanity, even if it's means allying with the aliens'. I swear, Edwards changes motivation more than Minmei changes boyfriends. Talking about Minmei...

Actually, his motivations don't flip-flop THAT much... there are the platitudes he trots out to shut Hunter up, and then there are the stereotypical villainous monologues when he's alone or just with his one idiot lackey. Overall, the comics made his motivation out to be a profound desire to screw Rick Hunter over out of a mix of profound hatred for the man himself (after Rick unknowingly abandoned Edwards and his dying lover in the Grand Cannon... how it's drawn, I don't see how he could've missed them, so Edwards might have a fair complaint here) and disgust with how Hunter's naivete and "give peace a chance" preachy bullcrap have colored REF tactical policy (which, by the events of Prelude, was also extremely well-warranted), and wants to take over leadership of the military and use any means necessary (including allying with more gullible aliens they can easily turn on and defeat later) as a means of protecting Earth.

Prelude goes a long way towards clarifying his motivations, while he gives the typical villain lecture to some captured lackwit or newly arrived enemy. He intended to use the Invid Brain and the Invid it controlled along with other tech he developed during his tenure as head of R&D on Tirol to liberate Earth from the Robotech Masters, and later from the forces of the Invid Regess.

[*]Giving the extra characters some relevance. I mean really, what's Minmei's purpose on the Sentinel other than regretting letting Rick go, and going on a boyfriend binge left and right?

Well... she doesn't really have much of one, except briefly being manipulated to provide compromising photos which would ruin Hunter's reputation and damage his credibility as a leader right after his wedding, serving as the focus for Jonathan Wolfe's romantic affections and the ensuing subplot, briefly being introduced to Cabell and Rem, and being abducted by T.R. Edwards... an event that bridges the gap between Sentinels Book IV and Shadow Chronicles.

[*]New Veritech fighters. New Veritech Fighters. New Veritech Fighters.

Tommy can't design mecha for poo. Tommy can't design mecha for poo. Tommy can't design mecha for poo.

Let's face it, the REF was SUPPOSED to be equipped with the latest toys, which logically means that they should've been equipped with the latest VFs that would later come into service with the outer solar system colonies and whatnot. So the Alpha/Legioss makes the most sense for that particular endeavor. At the time they left (2022) they had state of the art mecha with them, which they later revised with improved technology (shadow fighter).

Now, Tommy has tried to come up with new mechanical designs of his own, but they never work out well. The best he could do for an all-new design was the VM-9L Silverback, a transforming jeep with a battroid mode SO topheavy and so precariously balanced on a miniscule pair of legs that there's a virtual guarantee the damn thing can't move... and the transformation doesn't work out anyway. His other two attempts never made it to footage. In Robotech: From the Stars, he briefly (in the background of ONE panel) introduced the "VF-X-6 Genia", a supposed Alpha fighter early prototype... which looks like a bog standard AFC-01H Legioss with the normal delta wing replaced by the ones off the VF-0D and a Macross-style Skull Squad paintjob. One of the leaked sketches was an unused design for the "VF-13 Gamma Fighter" from Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles... which on even casual examination is revealed to be a transforming AF-03 Combat with a battroid mode that looks suspiciously similar to Macross M3's VF-9 Cutlass.

What Macek intended is irrelevant to a revision of a project that (thankfully) never got off the ground.

Unfortunately untrue, thanks to the abundantly unoriginal stylings of Tommy Yune... which recanonized many elements of Carl Macek's Robotech II: the Sentinels draft, and ties DIRECTLY into the events of Robotech II: the Sentinels Book IV... going so far as to re-draw entire scenes in the new style. Many of your other suggestions would also require extensive revision of the Robotech continuity, making it virtually impossible to gracefully tie this new Sentinels into the existing body of work as a canon story. You'd introduce far more plot holes than you'd fix.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Seto Kaiba