HG and Robotech Debates

[Gubaba]

I predict that someday we are going to have MEMO over here leering at us and telling us how he was always a big Macross fan.

Taksraven

He kinda is. His list from a couple of months ago:

MACROSS

SDF MACROSS.....DON'T LIKE

DYRL............AWESOME

MACROSS PLUS....AWESOME

2012............AWESOME

M7..............HATE

MZERO...........OK (HATE ENDING)

MFRONTIER.......AWESOME (BATTLE AT END SUCKS)(ZENTRADI IN ARGUMENT SUCKS)

FRONTIER MOVIE..HATE

Now...I don't know how he's managed to see the Frontier movie, but hey...he's full of surprises, right?

[Einherjar]

Well I got alot to prove,

Einhejar (spell) Here is an act of proof that I was not entirely a puppet for Memo,Think about why Memo told me your alt handle is "Aladin Sane" at RtX? And for hopes to gain a wee bit of your respect,I never went after anyone else or you.

If this is true, I did not know that a lot of what I've been saying has actually been a threat to them this whole time. Also, in the short amount of time I've been here I now have a reputation with long runners. Some people are just very paranoid.

How the heck did that happen?

[Gubaba]

If this is true, I did not know that a lot of what I've been saying has actually been a threat to them this whole time. Also, in the short amount of time I've been here I now have a reputation with long runners. Some people are just very paranoid.

How the heck did that happen?

It's your avatar. It strikes terror even in the hearts of the bravest among us.

[VFTF1]

Re: Pizza/Confidence -

Going by just the snippets Gubaba showed - I can understand his feelings here. And they are reminiscent of what Seto felt when he got banned from Robotech.com

There are two really LOUSY things that can be hurtful:

1. You give respectful, well articulated, researched opinions and get banned simply because someone doesn't want to hear it (Seto's case)

2. Somebody writes to you that the only reason they don't blame you for being a moron is because it's your parents fault for having you (Gubaba's case)

I think all of us have been back and forth over this issue of how to be fair for a long time. When Doug Bendo came here, I was against banning him for fear that this would somehow just send a signal that MW.com is no different from Robotech.com in terms of how it treats dissenting views.

Then again - I guess it's really really HARD to argue for how Doug Bendo's "views" qualify as even "ignorant." All of us sometimes display ignorance and when someone corrects us we're usually happy for it. If we're skeptical of the correction, we ask more questions or point out reasons for why we're skeptical...

In Bendo's case, kind of as in Memo's case, the membership here had the really challenging task of trying to engage in a discussion with people who hadn't the faintest clue of how to make a logical point or how to spell, let alone having a clue about Macross or even their own beloved Robotech (which time and time again it's been shown that Macross fans are actually more knowledgable of the minute of Robotech than Robotech's so-called ardent defenders).

This is really a tough scenario to navigate: how do you remain polite to people who are not polite to you, and how do you engage someone in deliberation when they wouldn't even know how to spell the word...?

And - while initially in my heart of hearts I disagreed with the decision and SWIFTNESS of the Bendo ban... after some time I came to the sad conclusion that I guess the mods just made the same choice I would make if somebody tried to break into my house. I really wouldn't spend any time inquiring into whether or not past childhood trauma played a part in their lives going the wrong way...There are TONS of people out there who have ups and downs and towards whom life has not always been fair and full of roses - but these folks somehow still manage to keep their cool and their poise.

The point I'm trying to make is that fundamentally - what these Robotech fans need to change is the way that they engage in discussion with other people.

It seriously has nothing to do with Macross or Robotech. These people need to first learn how to spell, how to differentiate between reasonable vs. ad hoc or ad persona arguments (and avoid the latter two while focusing on the former) and generally learn how to behave themselves.

Sure - it's fun - in a twisted kind of way - to read about how someone can actually think you're a pedophile for liking Macross Frontier or to be accused of being "retarted" - but it has to be said that Macrossworld is not a Nanny Website for Unwanted Robotech fans. This isn't the place to go if life hasn't been good to you and after putting other people down, you now need them to make you feel better.

There's no strict rule on this point - I've seen and been on different sides of this particular "how to treat this issue" debate. But in the end - come on...

I think Macrossworld has been extremely gracious and courteous to Robotech fans who have constantly been putting down the membership here either on other websites or in emails/PMs.

It was nice that Memo apologized to Seto - and I hope that trend continues. Not because it "proves" that Macross is cool and Robotech sucks - but because the real problem in this thread is that it HAS become a flame war.

Sorry to say it - but this thread has NOTHING to do anymore with "HG and Robotech Debates." It is ALL about "Robotech Fan Rehab" now.

Again - I would say the best thing to do would be for the Robotech fans who have signed up and hang out here to maybe explore other parts of this website because this whole topic is now essentially about THEM and not even about Robotech/HG anymore.

Just some thoughts.

Pete

[Einherjar]

He kinda is. His list from a couple of months ago:

Now...I don't know how he's managed to see the Frontier movie, but hey...he's full of surprises, right?

So only when it suits the situation, since the misconception that Robotech and Macross is still the same thing continues. And much by just him. But it doesn't sound like it should work, since there is definitely no friendly relationship between the two products even on a professional level.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Einherjar

[Saraphys]

But it doesn't sound like it should work, since there is definitely no friendly relationship between the two products even on a professional level.

Wait... Robotech has a professional side? When did that happen?

I thought they pissed-into-the-wind and appealed to generic stereotypes?

[Einherjar]

Wait... Robotech has a professional side? When did that happen?

I thought they pissed-into-the-wind and appealed to generic stereotypes?

I was trying to be fair and balanced about it. If I wanted to be more truthful about the kind of people involved who created the Robotech phenomenon, well, it may turn gut wrenching whether or not its hearsay or the truth.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Einherjar

[Roy Focker]

Okay lets see how out of it I am.

I visited Robotech.com

I knew Macek did some interview about Robotech with them. Read on their forums that he's back on the Robotech Creative Team. People seem to be really happy about it. Calling him the Robotech Master and stuff like that. Some aren't happy. This kinda is what bugs me about the Credit Macek gets. Robotech is Nothing on its own. You can't create something from nothing. All the parts of Robotech, the Animation, visual story and the written story as already created by the different Japanese production companies. Macek just put in plot device to join the series together. Like saying every show on ABC's TGIF is in the same universe because Steve Urkel appeared on all there shows once. Macek had some good taste in picking the right series to use but he's not some kinda of miracle worker. The Macross Saga if you ignore the names changes and the Narrator's consent reminders about Robotech is essentially Macross. What ground breaking elements did Macek and HG create that weren't already there?

Macek is either a God or Devil. I think that's how people see him. I might joke that he's the later but he's likely somewhere in the middle just looking to making living milking the success of Robotech as long as he can. Not sure how bringing him back to Robotech is going to help. His presence might encourage some fans but his other contributions The Sentinels & Robotech 3000 went no where. Robotech the Shadow Chronicles (Greatest Anime EVER!) got made without Macek. What miracle can Macek really perform?

Also this Memo guy does he always talk in Caps? I can see using them IN AN OFFICIAL MODERATING MESSAGE but using them all the time?

[Einherjar]

I knew Macek did some interview about Robotech with them. Read on their forums that he's back on the Robotech Creative Team. People seem to be really happy about it. Calling him the Robotech Master and stuff like that. Some aren't happy. This kinda is what bugs me about the Credit Macek gets. Robotech is Nothing on its own. You can't create something from nothing. All the parts of Robotech, the Animation, visual story and the written story as already created by the different Japanese production companies. Macek just put in plot device to join the series together. Like saying every show on ABC's TGIF is in the same universe because Steve Urkel appeared on all there shows once. Macek had some good taste in picking the right series to use but he's not some kinda of miracle worker. The Macross Saga if you ignore the names changes and the Narrator's consent reminders about Robotech is essentially Macross. What ground breaking elements did Macek and HG create that weren't already there?

That's what I've been saying. Give him or anyone in HG a blank canvas to do something original for Robotech, or finally remake it so it's truly original, and see if their talents can really match what they've always been taking credit for. The Sentinels, 3000, and Shadow Chronicles is already an example of that.

[Rabidweezil]

"Robotech Creative Team"

Now there's a contradiction in terms

But seriously...I imagine that would be a pretty easy gig. You meet once a decade and talk about sports

[Seto Kaiba]

Also this Memo guy does he always talk in Caps? I can see using them IN AN OFFICIAL MODERATING MESSAGE but using them all the time?

Yeah... MEMO always types all in caps. He's strangely reluctant to explain WHY he types all in caps, but the majority of the answers he's given when prompted boil down to "I'm too damn lazy to worry about things like spelling, capitalization, and punctuation". It just makes it that much harder to take what he says seriously under any circumstances... which is really a feat in itself if you find something he's said that isn't so obviously inaccurate you ignore it out of hand.

That's what I've been saying. Give him or anyone in HG a blank canvas to do something original for Robotech, or finally remake it so it's truly original, and see if their talents can really match what they've always been taking credit for. The Sentinels, 3000, and Shadow Chronicles is already an example of that.

By any rational assessment, if you gave the Harmony Gold "creative team" the directive to create a new, entirely original Robotech series with no direct ties to Macross, Southern Cross, or Mospeada... they'd waste a few years mixing generic science fiction plot elements, come up with a few new mechanical designs that look like something stolen from a particularly untalented DeviantArt contributor, and either come up with an excuse to cancel it before it can see the light of day so they can talk about how awesome it would've been if they'd been allowed to finish it (also known as the Robotech II: the Sentinels method) or trot it out to show the fans, only to have them reject it and cancel it then (the Robotech 3000 method).

[taksraven]

or trot it out to show the fans, only to have them reject it and cancel it then (the Robotech 3000 method).

Is that the exact story for Robotech 3000. I have heard it before but I also thought that I heard that there were problems with the studio doing the CG? Has anybody got more info?? How was the fan reaction gauged??

And WTF is this doing on a RT fanzine.......

[Seto Kaiba]

Is that the exact story for Robotech 3000. I have heard it before but I also thought that I heard that there were problems with the studio doing the CG? Has anybody got more info?? How was the fan reaction gauged??

Not the exact story, no... but it's correct in the essentials.

In the most general terms, what killed Robotech 3000 was the same thing that killed Robotech: the Untold Story and Robotech II: the Sentinels: a clusterfart of genuinely bad decisions made by the inept "creative team", failure to read industry trends, and circumstances beyond their control. The only thing that changed is the symptoms caused by the problem. For Robotech 3000, apportioning blame is somewhat difficult because Harmony Gold did their level best to bury the project forever rather than admit they'd produced such a turd. The most frequently cited reasons for the project's failure are the overwhelmingly negative reaction the fans had to the teaser trailer they trotted out on their annual convention tour, and Netter Digital (the animator) falling on hard times. Some also point to corporate politics that resulted in the dismissal of Netter Digital's lead animator and lumping of the work onto two totally inexperienced managers as a major contributing factor in the show's embarrassingly poor quality.

And WTF is this doing on a RT fanzine.......

Pretty much the same thing that Macross II: Lovers Again was doing as the featured article in Protoculture Addicts #19... they ran out of actual Robotech material after just a few issues and changed the book's format to a general anime fanzine. Issue #19 doesn't mention Robotech at all except for a full-page advert for the Sentinels VHS tape and a brief mention that all the Macross stuff mentioned within has nothing to do with Robotech. #19's featured articles were Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honnêamise, Macross II: Lovers Again, and Gundam F91. That the cover of that issue you posted even mentions Robotech is rather unusual.

It would actually be a halfway credible publication of it wasn't written by the same obnoxious bellends who usually write for Palladium.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Moly_Sigang]

Pretty much the same thing that Macross II: Lovers Again was doing as the featured article in Protoculture Addicts #19... they ran out of actual Robotech material after just a few issues and changed the book's format to a general anime fanzine. Issue #19 doesn't mention Robotech at all except for a full-page advert for the Sentinels VHS tape and a brief mention that all the Macross stuff mentioned within has nothing to do with Robotech. #19's featured articles were Royal Space Force: The Wings of Honnêamise, Macross II: Lovers Again, and Gundam F91. That the cover of that issue you posted even mentions Robotech is rather unusual.

It would actually be a halfway credible publication of it wasn't written by the same obnoxious bellends who usually write for Palladium.

Isn't the reason why Protoculture Addict changed from a Robotech fan magazine to a general anime magazine was because of HG trying to shut them down?

[Seto Kaiba]

Isn't the reason why Protoculture Addict changed from a Robotech fan magazine to a general anime magazine was because of HG trying to shut them down?

Not quite... initially, Protoculture Addicts was an unofficial Robotech fan magazine until Harmony Gold caught wind of the publication and offered them a choice between becoming the official licensed Robotech fan magazine in North America or being forcibly shut down. Understandably they chose the former, but ran out of Robotech material around the time they hit issue 10 and turned to general anime coverage with a bias towards mecha shows... and covered whatever was trendy in Japan in wildly inaccurate manner that many of their writers became known for in their work for Palladium Books. By the time they'd hit issue 15 or thereabouts, Robotech hadn't just taken a backseat to real anime, it'd simply been dropped from the publication altogether except for the occasional advertisement for the Streamline VHS release.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

It's your avatar. It strikes terror even in the hearts of the bravest among us.

ROFLMAO!

[sketchley]

Not quite... initially, Protoculture Addicts was an unofficial Robotech fan magazine until Harmony Gold caught wind of the publication and offered them a choice between becoming the official licensed Robotech fan magazine in North America or being forcibly shut down. Understandably they chose the former, but ran out of Robotech material around the time they hit issue 10 and turned to general anime coverage with a bias towards mecha shows... and covered whatever was trendy in Japan in wildly inaccurate manner that many of their writers became known for in their work for Palladium Books. By the time they'd hit issue 15 or thereabouts, Robotech hadn't just taken a backseat to real anime, it'd simply been dropped from the publication altogether except for the occasional advertisement for the Streamline VHS release.

Uhm, fallicy control: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoculture_Addicts

The mecha shows were published largely in Mecha Press: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecha_Press

One section of the writers of Mecha Press, who were only the game design studio of IANUS (PA's publisher) seperated in 1994 to form Dream Pod 9 (DP9).

It is DP9 who wrote the 3 "Macross II Deck Plans" supplements for Palladium; not IANUS Publications... erm, Protoculture Inc.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IANVS_Publications

And, uhm, Protoculture Addicts' coverage of other anime shows was accurate from the start (don't know about the current state, but considering that they are conjoined with Anime News Network, it speaks volumes about their quality. And I don't mean this in a negative sense.) Without that excellent coverage, I would never have been introduced to "Ranma 1/2" nor "Nadia of the Mysterious Seas" as I was in their earlier non-Robotech issues (and I don't consider either to be a "mecha anime"). Both shows coverage... scratch that, Ranma 1/2's coverage in Animerica and the other anime related North American publications was no-where near in depth, nor enough to highlight an anime series beyond much more than being a glorified advertisement for the latest North American anime releases.

[Pizza the Hutt]

Roy Focker

Also this Memo guy does he always talk in Caps? I can see using them IN AN OFFICIAL MODERATING MESSAGE but using them all the time?

Well he just did a "moderation" message to me defending Gubaba's penchant for baiting me at robotechx.com too. link below:

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/32-macross...;start=70#10039

And that is a good example of Memo's tactics I was referring to.He will not openly say to folks "I'll use you to make people mad" but he will stand by and watch others make you mad and ban if you explode.He even insulted me thinking my I.Q. is low.

Jeez man,I am damned if I hang out here and I am damned if I stay at with the dying Robotech fandom.

Back on subject

I heard that the cause of Robotech II Sentinels going under was a toy company matchbox screwed up and made the wrong line of toys.Like Toynami making defects.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Pizza the Hutt

[Seto Kaiba]

Uhm, fallicy control: The mecha shows were published largely in Mecha Press

One section of the writers of Mecha Press, who were only the game design studio of IANUS (PA's publisher) seperated in 1994 to form Dream Pod 9 (DP9).It is DP9 who wrote the 3 "Macross II Deck Plans" supplements for Palladium; not IANUS Publications... erm, Protoculture Inc..

Um... fallacy control on the fallacy control: While Mecha Press was established to focus primarily on mecha shows and the like, Protoculture Addicts did still cover rather more mecha shows than anything else, particularly in their early years. I'll address the issue of their accuracy (or rather, lack thereof) below.

And, uhm, Protoculture Addicts' coverage of other anime shows was accurate from the start (don't know about the current state, but considering that they are conjoined with Anime News Network, it speaks volumes about their quality.

Accurate from the start, eh? I've got a bunch of old issues of Protoculture Addicts and Mecha Press that point to rather a different answer. Rather more often than journalistic ethics would find reasonable, the authors tended to stoop to making it up as they went, often introducing things in articles that anyone familiar with the shows being covered could easily spot as untrue or unsubstantiated. Even without having my back issues in front of me I can pick out some pretty galling cases of bullshit... like their Macross II coverage saying that the green-haired hologram girl was Minmay, the Mardook are the Protoculture, and of course, completely getting the Meltrandi's role and backstory wrong, and to a lesser extent, farting up how the story relates to the original Macross and DYRL.

So... accurate from the start? No. Not even close. A commendable effort, given the times and their situation, and rather more detailed than their contemporaries, but nothing like entirely accurate.

(As a side note, Mecha Press's coverage was just as spotty, if not worse... their coverage of Five Star Stories had frequent cases of the writers making up specs and whole new technologies not present in the original story)

(There's a whole host of lesser screwups I could pick on, but I'm not here to nitpick, just clarifying a point)

I heard that the cause of Robotech II Sentinels going under was a toy company matchbox screwed up and made the wrong line of toys.Like Toynami making defects.

What little Harmony Gold has been willing to say about the abrupt cancellation of Robotech II: the Sentinels hasn't exactly formed a consistent picture of what went wrong. Over the years, their story's changed a bit in the details, which tends to deflect the actual blame further and further in the direction of Matchbox. Fortunately for us, Harmony Gold's licensees tend to be a little less tight-lipped, offering us a bit more detail on what went wrong.

As it stands, the prime factor that everyone points to when asked why Sentinels went tango uniform is the crash of the dollar/yen exchange rate which reportedly wiped out 25% of the show's budget almost overnight, forcing the powers that be to truncate it from 65 to about 36 episodes, and then cancel it altogether. Harmony Gold also lays some of the blame at Matchbox's door, though their reasons for doing so have changed between accounts from being described as a "lack of support" from their toy partner to Matchbox itself encountering financial trouble. I'm not sure about someone making a "wrong line of toys", but I've heard some 85ers attribute Matchbox's "lack of support" for the project to the lackluster sales of their mediocre Robotech toys. How much of their account is actually accurate... I can't say.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Pizza the Hutt]

I knew matchbox made bad toys and too many dolls and if I recall the VF-1S did not transform,as big and ugly it was I was shocked it did not transform.

A DYRL? question

Is it true that Tatsunoko had most of the rights of DYRL? and no one bothered to contact Tatsunoko for the rights this whole time and suddenly HG swopped in for them back in 2004.

I was just think out loud but why would Tatsunoko have some rights to DYRL? and why wouldn't Macross contact and get the rights first?I am assuming 1 of 2 things here.

1. Macross studios did not know Tatsunoko had the rights so no way to get them

2. BW/SN tried to contact Tatsunoko for the rights and refused in hopes to save them for HG.

I mean something that is such a strong element for Macross franchise in the hands of HG is a bad thing.I tried to watch that you tube vid where Tommy announced they got DYRL? rights but it stops mid way.

Macross DYRL? is what pointed me to Macross universe and it is sad that it is in HG hands.

[Seto Kaiba]

I knew matchbox made bad toys and too many dolls and if I recall the VF-1S did not transform,as big and ugly it was I was shocked it did not transform.

Having never owned any of the old Matchbox Robotech toys from the 80s, I can't really say one way or the other about their quality... but I've heard a great deal of griping about their quality. It is noteworthy that at least in the 80s Harmony Gold's licensees weren't above trying to cover mecha from all three sagas in toy form (like the Hovertanks).

A DYRL? question

Is it true that Tatsunoko had most of the rights of DYRL? and no one bothered to contact Tatsunoko for the rights this whole time and suddenly HG swopped in for them back in 2004.

Well... according to those in the industry the rights to DYRL have always been somewhat confused. Representatives of AnimEigo have said that nobody really knows who owns the distribution rights to the movie anymore, since it had been licensed for distribution abroad and released in a heavily edited form. What we can say for certain is that Tatsunoko retained the rest-of-world merchandising rights to DYRL, and later licensed those to rights to Harmony Gold after the whole legal brouhaha got started, as Tommy Yune has said at several convention panels. Despite some awkward verbiage, Harmony Gold has never claimed to have the distribution rights to DYRL... just the right to produce toys and other goods based on it for sale outside of Japan (probably a way for them to shut out any competing VF-1 toys).

I was just think out loud but why would Tatsunoko have some rights to DYRL? and why wouldn't Macross contact and get the rights first?I am assuming 1 of 2 things here.

Presumably Tatsunoko was given the rest-of-world merchandising rights as part or all of their compensation for their role in the movie's production... rather like the arrangement that gave them the distribution and merchandising rights to the original Macross series outside of Japan. It doesn't look like they were given any rights other than merchandising though...

Edited February 16, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

A DYRL? questionIs it true that Tatsunoko had most of the rights of DYRL? and no one bothered to contact Tatsunoko for the rights this whole time and suddenly HG swopped in for them back in 2004.

Tatsunoko owns the merchandising rights to DYRL? as part of their agreement for producing the film. Bandai Visual, in cooperation with TOHO, have the distribution rights to the film in Japan. Big West, MBS and Shogakukan Productions would be the direct parties regarding the license of the film.

[Gubaba]

Roy Focker

Well he just did a "moderation" message to me defending Gubaba's penchant for baiting me at robotechx.com too. link below:

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/32-macross...;start=70#10039

Please. How exactly is that "baiting"?

[sketchley]

So... accurate from the start? No. Not even close. A commendable effort, given the times and their situation, and rather more detailed than their contemporaries, but nothing like entirely accurate.

And there's your rebuttle.

Hindsight is 20/20. They were making their synopsises and articles as the shows were airing; not years after the fact, when source material had been published in a plethora of books.*

Also, addressing the alleged made up content: Case in point: Macross and the MATT book/VF-1 Master File. There's a bucketload of information available in it, that was made up by Japanese fans and contradicts later-published canon material. Therefore, who are we to say that their articles are innaccurate and made up, when they may very well be accurate translations of Japanese fan/anime magazine/whatever material on the shows available at the time?

Lastly, I don't think anyone can be entirely accurate about something that someone else made. Macross Chronicle is a good example of that. It's a Japanese publication about a Japanese show, supervised by the very creator(s) of that show. Yet there are tracts of information missing.

PS they must be doing something right when it comes to content, as they're still publishing 23 years after the launch.

* Not to mention publishing on a deadline. Fans with all the time in the world can afford to take the time to make exacting translations and compilations. Your Macross II site is a good example. You'll have to remind me of it's web address, as I appear to have lost it...

EDIT: forgot this point: if I remember correctly, they were also getting a lot of their information (ie translations) from 3rd party sources (ie a foreigner in Japan, or someone fluent in Japanese but not necessarily familiar with the show. It's fairly easy to see how that would cause slip ups like the Macross II Minmei Attack hologram being mistaken for Minmei herself.)

Edited February 16, 2010 by sketchley

[Beltane70]

Having never owned any of the old Matchbox Robotech toys from the 80s, I can't really say one way or the other about their quality... but I've heard a great deal of griping about their quality. It is noteworthy that at least in the 80s Harmony Gold's licensees weren't above trying to cover mecha from all three sagas in toy form (like the Hovertanks).

The quality of the Matchbox toys varied greatly. It all depended on whether the toys were made for Matchbox, such as the cheap plastic VF-1, the hovertank, and the Invid Shock Trooper; or if they were just the Japanese toys in new packaging, such as the SDF-1, and the die-cast/plastic destroids.

I never owned any of the cheap plastic toys, but some of my friends did. For the most part, they were just pretty ugly and lacked detail, but from what I recall they pretty sturdy.

I still have the only two destroids that I bought, the Tomahawk, and Defender. Sadly, the Defender is missing the gun barrels on its right "arm". Both toys were actually made by Bandai.

[Jasonc]

I wanted to correct an error that I overlooked here...

I almost forgot to mention (could be a legal touch for this thread)

One of the things that made Memo lose friendship with me was when he got upset that I mentioned that Tom Bateman was fired because he leaked the script of SR and was in cahoots with that idiot pie guy khyron prime..So it is obvious that rhade can't see that Memo kind of "supported" my bad habits for example look at how I flamed Whitehall, Protoculture and a couple others and then when I made a thread agains leonard the d.O.l. cry to Memo and then suddenly I am banned and what was funny, that idiot d.O.l. member aka_s2h said he was going to fly to Texas from Australia to get me,,LoL as bored as I been with life I was hoping he would have because I needed some excitement.

Tom Bateman wasn't fired for leaking anything. That stupid treatment got leaked sometime after Tom was gone, and by someone who probably visited Tommy and Steve at HG from time to time. I did find it strange that to the day that drama started, Someone not even in this country supposedly knew who did it, and was quick to place blame on either Tom, or one of his friends. This is a guy who I believe lives in where? South America. Now, how would someone know enough to create such a story like that, unless it came from someone who talks to Tommy, Steve, and Kevin all the time, and also has ties to South American RT fans?

Anyways, it's old news, but I thought I'd correct you on that notion. From what I know of Tom, he's never been the vindictive type, and is still a huge Robotech fan. He's always been a professional, so that idea that you say you came up with is pretty absurd.

Well he just did a "moderation" message to me defending Gubaba's penchant for baiting me at robotechx.com too. link below:

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/32-macross...;start=70#10039

And that is a good example of Memo's tactics I was referring to.He will not openly say to folks "I'll use you to make people mad" but he will stand by and watch others make you mad and ban if you explode.He even insulted me thinking my I.Q. is low.

After reading that thread, what I don't understand is why people have to tie in characters to other characters that aren't even related? The problem with trying to fit MacF characters into characters like Kaifun, Leonard, etc, etc., is that you lose the character's uniqueness, because the character is put into some box. I'd jump in on the conversation, but I really don't have much interest in being part of rt.com's stepchild site.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Jasonc

[Pizza the Hutt]

Jasonc

Anyways, it's old news, but I thought I'd correct you on that notion. From what I know of Tom, he's never been the vindictive type, and is still a huge Robotech fan. He's always been a professional, so that idea that you say you came up with is pretty absurd.

Actually I never came up with the idea,I was told that info and I was in error and I guess I owe Tom Bateman an apology too.That explains why Memo was so adamant and insisted that I talk to a "Juan" and get the story but why would he have me talk to Juan?

Many things was done in error on my part,I am a Robotech fan that believed that HG had Robotech on a roll and would be a hit and little by little I saw thru the lies from the constant babble of lies of how "things are happening" and then blame the LAM for HG's lack of Robotech animes.

You stay cool

Pete (not the VFTF1 Pete)

[Gubaba]

After reading that thread, what I don't understand is why people have to tie in characters to other characters that aren't even related? The problem with trying to fit MacF characters into characters like Kaifun, Leonard, etc, etc., is that you lose the character's uniqueness, because the character is put into some box. I'd jump in on the conversation, but I really don't have much interest in being part of rt.com's stepchild site.

But it's fun!

(Anyway, I agree with you about Frontier...there aren't many one-to-one correspondences between the characters, not when you really get into it. Still...Kaifun is the protective big-brother type who gets between the hero and the heroine. In that respect, Brera fits.)

[Jasonc]

(Anyway, I agree with you about Frontier...there aren't many one-to-one correspondences between the characters, not when you really get into it. Still...Kaifun is the protective big-brother type who gets between the hero and the heroine. In that respect, Brera fits.)

True, and I hope you didn't think I was going off on you. I think it's more of a circus when people that openly blast it because it's Macross attempt to analyze it. Then, on top of that, they try to compare it to Robotech's version of the characters. And it's not that they aren't entitled to their view, it just doesn't make much sense.

Actually I never came up with the idea,I was told that info and I was in error and I guess I owe Tom Bateman an apology too.That explains why Memo was so adamant and insisted that I talk to a "Juan" and get the story but why would he have me talk to Juan?

Many things was done in error on my part,I am a Robotech fan that believed that HG had Robotech on a roll and would be a hit and little by little I saw thru the lies from the constant babble of lies of how "things are happening" and then blame the LAM for HG's lack of Robotech animes.

There you go...why would you be pointed to someone that only Memo really talks to? Whatever info Juanrt would've received, would've been from either someone who is on the inside of HG, or Memo. This makes the whole thing of the leaked treatment very interesting. Unfortuanately, Shadow Rising was something Tom didn't really talk much about. After seeing Shadow Chronicles, I wasn't too interested in what was gonna come after it. In either case, the debate of what actually happened and who let it out will probably never be known. All I will say, is that it was interesting that non-HG employees were telling me and others about Shadow Rising, and specific details related to the treatment that popped up much later, before that drama even unfolded. It raises many questions, some I personally don't even care to try to answer. It was putting one and one together from those events that when Darkwater pointed me to the blog, I knew it was real. Although, I think the reaction of Robotech fans was a clear indication to Tommy that what he had done wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. Someone sent me the file from the blog, and I may still have it. If you are still a Robotech fan after Shadow Chronicles, I doubt you'd be one after that.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Jasonc

[Gubaba]

True, and I hope you didn't think I was going off on you. I think it's more of a circus when people that openly blast it because it's Macross attempt to analyze it. Then, on top of that, they try to compare it to Robotech's version of the characters. And it's not that they aren't entitled to their view, it just doesn't make much sense.

Well, it's not much different than the people who think that the song title "Northern Cross" is a Robotech reference, or the the Ex-Gear is based on the Cyclones. Or that SDFM is a rip-off of Space Battleship Yamato. Or that Frontier is a rip-off of Gundam because they have knives. People will see what they want to see.

[VFTF1]

Well, it's not much different than the people who think that the song title "Northern Cross" is a Robotech reference, or the the Ex-Gear is based on the Cyclones. Or that SDFM is a rip-off of Space Battleship Yamato. Or that Frontier is a rip-off of Gundam because they have knives. People will see what they want to see.

Dude - it's a stated fact that Northern Cross is a Robotech reference. I mean - come on - the TITLE states it. "Northern Cross" - how much more explicit can it be. "Southern Cross" / "Northern Cross" - how can you not see it? It's totally not about people seeing what they "want" to see. Do you think I woke up in the morning thinking "I really want to see Northern Cross" ? No. But then I saw it and hey - it's there. So what are you talking about?

As for EX-Gear - it's clearly a rip off of cyclones because Robotech was the first anime to feature variable body armor and then all the TV shows started to do it. That's just a fact of history. As for SDFM being a rip-off of Space Battleship Yamato - you know - prior to Robotech, all Japanse anime was just a rip off of that Yamato thing, which wasn't very good anyways - until John Wayne made it into a live action movie.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

And there's your rebuttle. *snip*

Okay, spelling issues aside... what I'm getting at here is that there's a distinction between (semi-)informed speculation and assertion. If you intend to talk about the accuracy and reliability of a publication, that distinction does matter. You won't see me verbally crucifying a magazine for posting informed speculation about a show, but when the writers start representing their guesswork as hard facts any pretense of accuracy goes out the window. Protoculture Addicts crossed that line far too often for it to be considered an accurate in any meaningful way. Publishing wild guesses and unfounded speculation as though they were hard fact is not accurate reportage by any rational definition, or even good journalistic ethics for that matter.

Now, if the writers had at least bothered to qualify their statements to show what they were saying was speculation, I wouldn't have grounds for complaint... but they didn't. Instead of saying "this is what we think this is" they simply said "this is what it is".

Perhaps I'm being unduly harsh because of my scholarly approach to this kind of thing, or because their gleeful idiocy and casual disregard for the truth created most of the misconceptions about Macross II I've spent the last couple of years fighting. All the same... if we're going to give a magazine a free pass to print unhinged, unfounded speculation as fact, does this mean we're also going to give MEMO and Maverick a free pass to come here and tell everyone that their crazy theories about the Macross rights situation are factual too?

Also, addressing the alleged made up content: Case in point: Macross and the MATT book/VF-1 Master File. There's a bucketload of information available in it, that was made up by Japanese fans and contradicts later-published canon material. Therefore, who are we to say that their articles are innaccurate and made up, when they may very well be accurate translations of Japanese fan/anime magazine/whatever material on the shows available at the time?

Bad example to pick, sketchley... the MAT book was written by Masahiro Chiba, someone who actually worked on the original Macross series and other parts of the franchise... and speaking as someone who has access to most of those early publications with regard to their wonderfully inaccurate Macross II article I feel fairly safe in saying those mooks didn't get their crackpot ideas from any reputable publication, or any of the less-than-reputable ones for that matter... most of it seems to have been pulled out of thin air.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

After reading that thread, what I don't understand is why people have to tie in characters to other characters that aren't even related? The problem with trying to fit MacF characters into characters like Kaifun, Leonard, etc, etc., is that you lose the character's uniqueness, because the character is put into some box. I'd jump in on the conversation, but I really don't have much interest in being part of rt.com's stepchild site.

How is anyone supposed to take that thread seriously? You have one guy who has an unhealthy obsession with Southern Cross who calls it vapid and stupid because it's not Southern Cross (but nothing will realistically be like Southern Cross again ever) and at least two moderators who may like it to a fault, but because of relationships they've made themselves with "powerful" people, they're unreasonably bias to keep their standing. They drown out everyone else who are really trying to understand Frontier. But honestly, that is not the best place to talk about that topic.

[Gubaba]

How is anyone supposed to take that thread seriously? You have one guy who has an unhealthy obsession with Southern Cross who calls it vapid and stupid because it's not Southern Cross (but nothing will realistically be like Southern Cross again ever) and at least two moderators who may like it to a fault, but because of relationships they've made themselves with "powerful" people, they're unreasonably bias to keep their standing. They drown out everyone else who are really trying to understand Frontier. But honestly, that is not the best place to talk about that topic.

But, on the plus side, FIVE OUT OF FIVE ROBOTECHX MEMBERS AGREE THAT SHERYL IS GREAT!!!

[Einherjar]

But, on the plus side, FIVE OUT OF FIVE ROBOTECHX MEMBERS AGREE THAT SHERYL IS GREAT!!!

Is that genuine or are they associating Sheryl as similar to another character in Robotech? Or at least as a potential descendant to one of them? Can't be Minmei, since everyone in the fandom and Carl Macek hates her.