taksraven Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 So see? NONE OF IT WAS CARL'S FAULT! He's got TONS OF EXPLOSIVELY MASSIVELY GARGANTUAN GENIUS IDEAS!!! (but everyone around him is incompetent, so they never come out right. Ah, the tragedy of it all.) Sounds like the kids I teach. Nothing that goes wrong is ever their fault either. Taksraven
taksraven Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 Is Azrael going to have a firing squad ready for the unlucky sucker who takes this thread into page 25? I don't think its going to take the rest of the year to do it either.
Gubaba Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 Is Azrael going to have a firing squad ready for the unlucky sucker who takes this thread into page 25? I don't think its going to take the rest of the year to do it either. Well, it is the 25th Anniversary...surely that's deserving of SOME kind of commemoration, right?
VFTF1 Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 I have an idea. Why not just make every page page 25? This thread goes to 25! Pete
Einherjar Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 (edited) Well, it is the 25th Anniversary...surely that's deserving of SOME kind of commemoration, right? But people already celebrated the 25th anniversary of the franchise with the elements people have always been interested in. Edited February 3, 2010 by Einherjar
Gubaba Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 But people already celebrated the 25th anniversary of the franchise with the elements people have always been interested in. Yeah, and look what we got: a TV series (not even in English!) that's all eye-candy and no substance, nothing more than a re-hash of the first season of Robotech. It also rips off Shadow Chronicles (the Vajra are no different from the Invid, and the EX-Gear is exactly the same as the Cyclones), and is full of boredom and hentai, as well as pushing its homosexual agenda onto viewers. Not only that, but its got naked 12-year-old girls prancing around at every opportunity, for no purpose other than the sexual gratification of pedophiles. It also rips off Gundam pretty hard, since the Veritechs in it use beam swords. Every episode makes you say, "Meh. That could've been better." And dear God, the singing! Don't even get me started on the singing! WHY WHY WHY do they have to have girls singing all the time???
Einherjar Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 Yeah, and look what we got: a TV series (not even in English!) that's all eye-candy and no substance, nothing more than a re-hash of the first season of Robotech. It also rips off Shadow Chronicles (the Vajra are no different from the Invid, and the EX-Gear is exactly the same as the Cyclones), and is full of boredom and hentai, as well as pushing its homosexual agenda onto viewers. Not only that, but its got naked 12-year-old girls prancing around at every opportunity, for no purpose other than the sexual gratification of pedophiles. It also rips off Gundam pretty hard, since the Veritechs in it use beam swords. Every episode makes you say, "Meh. That could've been better." And dear God, the singing! Don't even get me started on the singing! WHY WHY WHY do they have to have girls singing all the time??? Yeah, it was a mediocre attempt and very much unnecessary. Not like Robotech where they don't have to release anything for years at a time because they have standards and it's timeless. Less is more works for them, but you know what's better than less? None.
Gubaba Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 Yeah, it was a mediocre attempt and very much unnecessary. Not like Robotech where they don't have to release anything for years at a time because they have standards and it's timeless. Less is more works for them, but you know what's better than less? None. Again, that brings up the topic of how uncompleted projects Ilike, say, Sentinels) are limited nly by the fans' imaginations. It's the potential that grabs people...they can dream that animated Sentinels would been SO much better than the novels or comics, and there's nothing there to contradict them... So yeah, in a sense, you're right.
VFTF1 Posted February 3, 2010 Posted February 3, 2010 You guys are also forgeting that Robotech has 9000 lessoners and propaply duble that amont of veyouwers. Pete
MastaEgg Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) Y'know...I was thinking about this earlier today, thanks to Dynaman's (now locked) post about the Yamato live-action movie. Check out the official Star Blazers website...notice anything? Like the way it gives a comprehensive history of Space Battleship Yamato, as well as Star Blazers? The way it discusses Yamato movies, manga, novelizations, toys, and models? The in-depth blurbs about the new and upcoming Yamato films, despite the fact that these will probably never see the light of day in the US? It's a great resource for anyone interested in Star Blazers, but it's also a great resource for anyone interested in Yamato, as well. Even though there are no in-Japanese-with-subs DVD sets for any of the three Yamato TV series, all of the information is right there on the website: how the series was originally, what the American producers changed, and why they changed it. Detailed synopses of the novelizations, the comics, and other media. Hell, they even translated one of the old comics and put it up for viewing. Translations of interviews with the original creators, and detailed, well-researched articles about the show in both Japanese and English incarnations. What if Robotech.com had been as honest, forthright, and thorough? They should have a seperate site for Macross. They already have one for DYRL?, but the way it's worded, it sounds like it's related to Robotech. They even have a fricken Macross to Robotech comparison table so you wouldn't get confused. But as a normal anime fan visting the site, I'd be more confused as to why they don't provide a link to where I can buy this mysterious movie. Edited February 4, 2010 by MastaEgg
Gubaba Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 They should have a seperate site for Macross. They already have one for DYRL?, but the way it's worded, it sounds like it's related to Robotech. They even have a fricken Macross to Robotech comparison table so you wouldn't get confused. But as a normal anime fan visting the site, I'd be more confused as to why they don't provide a link to where I can buy this mysterious movie. And www.macrossfrontier.com used to lead you back to ADV's SDFM page...
BeyondTheGrave Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 I find it funny when you click on the shop button it takes you to rt.com store where just about everything is out of stock.
Saraphys Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 They should have a seperate site for Macross. They already have one for DYRL?, but the way it's worded, it sounds like it's related to Robotech. They even have a fricken Macross to Robotech comparison table so you wouldn't get confused. But as a normal anime fan visting the site, I'd be more confused as to why they don't provide a link to where I can buy this mysterious movie. Thats just sick... Thats got to be the worst farce iv ever seen (Robotech & Robotech.com not withstanding)... Amazing that Iv never encountered that...thing...before now. Maybe my subconscience was saving my mind from exploding... If anyone actually learned about Macross from that site, I'd be amazed!
Seto Kaiba Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) And www.macrossfrontier.com used to lead you back to ADV's SDFM page... What I find particularly amusing about this rather sleazy attempt to by ADV Films to cash in on Macross Frontier's success is that it's legally actionable here in the US. If they really cared enough to do so, Big West could've easily taken ADV Films to court over it and expected to win handily. I've seen a few cases like that in the past (one of which I was involved in directly), where the owner of that misleading domain was ordered to surrender the domain name to the owners of the group or product he'd been attempting to undermine, and was also forced to pay monetary damages. (I saw one of these lawsuits firsthand when I was asked to testify about the content of the violating site after a particularly unscrupulous fellow registered the name of a local public school district as a .com site and pointed it to a porn site network) Edited February 4, 2010 by Seto Kaiba
BeyondTheGrave Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (I saw one of these lawsuits firsthand when I was asked to testify about the content of the violating site after a particularly unscrupulous fellow registered the name of a local public school district as a .com site and pointed it to a porn site network)
Moly_Sigang Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Looks like MEMO already uploaded the videos from AOD. http://www.robotechx.com/forums/7-robotech...ideos.html#9473
chrisk Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Waitaminute... Wait just a minute. The Korean guy who churned out forgettable funny books is bringing back the guy who thought bringing space amazons, space teddies, Captain was a good idea for the Robotech franchise? Could be the best double-team since Van Damne and Rodman. Gubaba, I'm curious but did you post that awesome write-up of MEMO's con report a few pages back on RTX.com?
Gubaba Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Gubaba, I'm curious but did you post that awesome write-up of MEMO's con report a few pages back on RTX.com? What, the one about watching Shadow Chronicles with the sound off and eyes closed? Yeah, that was me.
Einherjar Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Looks like MEMO already uploaded the videos from AOD. http://www.robotechx.com/forums/7-robotech...ideos.html#9473 Just to put things into perspective, he is currently the only person on the Internet making the entire thing that happened in AOD a big deal. Talk is cheap, people want results.
Gubaba Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Just to put things into perspective, he is currently the only person on the Internet making the entire thing that happened in AOD a big deal. Talk is cheap, people want results. Yeah, nothing special there. Memo told everyone to check out Part VI, since that had the legal stuff it. Again, Tommy only talks about toys and comics and merchandizing rights, then says that Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles designs were changed because they thought maybe they could sell them in Japan. I dunno. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not.
Seto Kaiba Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Yeah, nothing special there. Memo told everyone to check out Part VI, since that had the legal stuff it. Again, Tommy only talks about toys and comics and merchandizing rights No surprises there... though it's definitely looking like Tommy's deliberately opting to phrase his answers in awkwardly in hopes of muddying the distinction between having the ability to produce merchandise based on a show and full creative control over the show itself. To anyone watching with a critical ear and at least a passing familiarity with the rights involved, the attempts to hide the truth in waffling stand out pretty clearly. then says that Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles designs were changed because they thought maybe they could sell them in Japan. I dunno. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not. Given what Carl Macek had to say on the matter back when he was still the franchise's creative director, Tommy is almost certainly either lying or retroactively applying reasoning from the production of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles to Robotech II: the Sentinels.
Einherjar Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) No surprises there... though it's definitely looking like Tommy's deliberately opting to phrase his answers in awkwardly in hopes of muddying the distinction between having the ability to produce merchandise based on a show and full creative control over the show itself. To anyone watching with a critical ear and at least a passing familiarity with the rights involved, the attempts to hide the truth in waffling stand out pretty clearly. See, like I said a couple of months ago, that's definitely what a politician would do. Even MEMO's attempts would count, since he shifts between being just a fan to wanting to be something more. Edited February 4, 2010 by Einherjar
MastaEgg Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) "That's the future of anime! Where you get... western storytellers exploiting Asian talent!" -Macek on where he thinks the anime industry is heading. I didn't listen to his interview on ANW, but apparently he's pissed at all the negative comments left afterward. If it's full of stupid quotes like the one above, then I'm not surprised. Edited February 4, 2010 by MastaEgg
azrael Posted February 4, 2010 Author Posted February 4, 2010 Yeah, nothing special there. Memo told everyone to check out Part VI, since that had the legal stuff it. Again, Tommy only talks about toys and comics and merchandizing rights, then says that Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles designs were changed because they thought maybe they could sell them in Japan. Yep. Again, he's talking about merchandising. Comics, toys, t-shirts, novels, blah blah blah. And that's the money-maker. Those "derivative works" that he mentions are "products derived from the series". He's not really muddying the truth, more like just answering it from the merchandising side. The lady asking the question kinda shares part of the blame since I'm not sure she quite understands the situation and "how" she should have asked the question.
hulagu Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) "That's the future of anime! Where you get... western storytellers exploiting Asian talent!" -Macek on where he thinks the anime industry is heading. I didn't listen to his interview on ANW, but apparently he's pissed at all the negative comments left afterward. If it's full of stupid quotes like the one above, then I'm not surprised. If you try to sell your show based solely on its "epic storytelling" and _still_ turn out a lame duck of a story, compared to other franchises that sideline into merchandising music and toys, what does that say about your work? That may or may not be the future of animated storytelling, but you certainly couldn't tell by Robotech thus far. Edited February 4, 2010 by hulagu
Seto Kaiba Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) See, like I said a couple of months ago, that's definitely what a politician would do. Even MEMO's attempts would count, since he shifts between being just a fan to wanting to be something more. Admittedly, one of the many sins attributed to Tommy Yune is a profound love of office politics, so I guess that's really no surprise... Yep. Again, he's talking about merchandising. Comics, toys, t-shirts, novels, blah blah blah. And that's the money-maker. Those "derivative works" that he mentions are "products derived from the series". He's not really muddying the truth, more like just answering it from the merchandising side. The lady asking the question kinda shares part of the blame since I'm not sure she quite understands the situation and "how" she should have asked the question. Really, I'd still call it muddying the truth because he's almost certainly doing it intentionally to sidestep having to address the actual subject matter of the question... (On an unrelated note, I'm inventorying my old Robotech comics, and remaining quietly astounded that anyone ever thought material this badly written and drawn was marketable. I'm also kind of horrified that the Waltrips attempted to call Robotech a story "With the scope of Frank Herbert's Dune, the two-fisted action of E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series, and the larger-than-life characters reminiscent of Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek. They do give some juicy details about EXACTLY how bad the financial crash hurt the Sentinels project... with the budget reportedly losing 25% or more of its value overnight, causing the show to be curtailed from 65 to 36 episodes before being canceled outright) Edited February 4, 2010 by Seto Kaiba
taksraven Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (I saw one of these lawsuits firsthand when I was asked to testify about the content of the violating site after a particularly unscrupulous fellow registered the name of a local public school district as a .com site and pointed it to a porn site network) WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!
taksraven Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 They do give some juicy details about EXACTLY how bad the financial crash hurt the Sentinels project... with the budget reportedly losing 25% or more of its value overnight, causing the show to be curtailed from 65 to 36 episodes before being canceled outright) I'm bored so lets talk theoreticals. If Sentinels had been completely produced in some form (65 eps, 36, whatever), does anybody think it would have had any measure of success, or may it have hastened the eventual demise of the franchise? Maybe if it had been completed there would be lots more RT fans now. Any thoughts anyone?? Taksraven
Moly_Sigang Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) Yep. Again, he's talking about merchandising. Comics, toys, t-shirts, novels, blah blah blah. And that's the money-maker. Those "derivative works" that he mentions are "products derived from the series". He's not really muddying the truth, more like just answering it from the merchandising side. The lady asking the question kinda shares part of the blame since I'm not sure she quite understands the situation and "how" she should have asked the question. At 3:32 onward, Tommy says, and i qoute: "Even though the rights within Japan might have fractured, the original different producers might be fighting over the merchandising rights.." The way i see it, Tommy Yune is intermixing the Commercial rights (Toys, Comics, Video Games, etc.) with the Intellectual Property rights. That's muddying the truth there. Edited February 4, 2010 by Moly_Sigang
Seto Kaiba Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 I'm bored so lets talk theoreticals. If Sentinels had been completely produced in some form (65 eps, 36, whatever), does anybody think it would have had any measure of success, or may it have hastened the eventual demise of the franchise? Maybe if it had been completed there would be lots more RT fans now. Any thoughts anyone?? Assuming that the series was completed using the episode outlines printed in Robotech Art 3, gambling the future of the franchise on Robotech II would've been one hell of a sucker bet. On its own, the story is enough to virtually guarantee the show's failure, a situation definitely not helped any by the generally poor quality of the animation and the rather ugly new character and mechanical designs. In my opinion, had Robotech II: the Sentinels been completed as a 65-episode TV series as originally planned, it would almost certainly have been canceled before it could complete its initial televised run. Matchbox's Robotech merchandise wasn't exactly a big seller before, and the premature cancellation of Robotech II probably wouldn't help the toy sales any. If the series had been completed at the abbreviated 36-episode run it was abbreviated to after the budget went to hell during the dollar-yen exchange rate crash, smart money says it would've ended up as a direct-to-VHS release, the price of which would probably have turned many fans off of the series, and the quality of which would've done in the rest of its limited appeal. Either way, it's a safe bet that if Robotech II had actually made it through production and been released, the subsequent return on investment would've been anywhere from poor to nonexistent, likely hastening the demise of the Robotech franchise. The cancellation of Sentinels probably prolonged Robotech's life if only because it could best be described as a mercy killing.
VFTF1 Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Well... I remember reading the episode descriptions in Robotech Art III, and I distinctly remember how with each new episode I got the feeling that things would have gotten way to convuluted. Part of the problem with the Robotech narrative is that there is none. Let me explain: In Macross, while the stories of the individual characters are important, with much time given to their character growth throughout the series, their interaction etc - there is also a metanarrative that transcends the particular characters and races. This meta-narrative can be summed up as: the power of culture/music as a remedy for a Hobbesian (aka "nasty, brutish and short") state of nature. Insofar as conflict is "natural" - particularly amongst those who are alien to one another, culture and music are seen as a way to bridge conflicts. Another layer of the meta-narrative is the extent to which music and culture "humanize" scientific progress - and the tension between the two (Macross Plus is perhaps the best "capsule" example of this, with music/culture itself being twisted using the scientific method towards ends which seem at odds with music/culture's nature. Now - like this metanarrative or not - it's always there. Maybe you even disagree with my general summary of it - fine. But I hope you can at least agree that something close to what I've written is the general "theme" of Macross. Now... What's the metanarrative of Robotech? Galactic battle for a power source? Not really, since despite all of the novels, cartoons, movies, episodes, Art Books etc etc etc --- it is NEVER explained what "protoculture" really is and why it is so important as a power source. The "fight for protoculture" is just a given - never really delved into. For instance - it's never explored whether, given the huge costs associated with acquiring protoculture (namely inter-galactic war...apparently)... are worthwhile? In Macross, we see that there are numerous energy sources being used by various colony ships and organizations. Nuclear power, solar power - the Frontier recycles everything...etc etc etc ... This is far more realistic than the juvenille idea that there's ONE energy source in the universe worth having ...and that oddly enough it's impossible to have it without lots of fighting... Ok...so maybe it's a deep personal story about the main character? Mmm...well...not really - because it's one thing when the main character (or characters) undergoes an epic journey with some challenges and changes along the way - but it's another thing completely when the characte undergows a journey that is pathetic rather than epic. Let me explain the difference: Soap Opera characters undergo pathetic rather than epic journeys all the time. Soap Operas, unlike most children's cartoons, do not return to the status quo with each episode - the plot moves forward - however - it moves forward at such a pace that its' particular elements become inconsequential. That is to say, character A can be married, killed, found to actually have not died, been replaced by their twin brother, living in poverty, won the lottery, lost everything gambling, opened a pizza place, fallen in love with an older woman, ultimately gotten married to a younger woman, had two children, gone to war, joined a maritime expedition to the north pole, fallen in love with an eskimo, gone to work at a hospital in the Australian outback, reunited with his family, become gay, opened a fashion parlor, discovered a terrorist plot, been abducted by aliens... you see where I'm going? Soap Operas that are long running have EVERYTHING (and therefore by definition NOTHING) happen to their characters. This is what I call a pathetic rather than an epic journey because it's full of pathos - it's a journey that wants to sound and look important, but is nothing more than writers reaching for ideas to keep the series going and writing for an audience who usually enjoys such campy turns of events. So - this is pretty much what happens to the characters in Robotech. Minmei especially; but all of them really. No events are ever actually EPICALLY important. Minmey's love for Hikaru, which was such an important story element in the original Macross, becomes diluted in Robotech, where Minmei seems to fall in love with people all the time. Hikaru and Misa's tense love - which was moving and memorable because of its' tension - becomes diluted because they need to always be shown as a couple and in love throughout all of Robotech - always in command of everything, flying huge ships and also being married... So really this isn't a meta-theme either - because there is no "end" in sight for the characters - and even if there were one - a story which is full of haphazard twists and turns instead of ones that were thought out is no story at all. So...what else? I dunno. This is because Robotech tries to be everything and nothing. It tries to be the transforming robot show, the "mature" "adult themes show" the space opera star wars space battles show, the cool combat armor show, the amazing alien races show, the exploring the galaxy show, the post-apocalyptic earth show... I forgot what my point was. Pete
Einherjar Posted February 4, 2010 Posted February 4, 2010 Admittedly, one of the many sins attributed to Tommy Yune is a profound love of office politics, so I guess that's really no surprise... When you think about it, every person from HG who has ever promoted Robotech in the past share this quality. It either sounds sophisticated, overly optimistic, or strictly defensive about the franchise when their actions say otherwise. But it's really for the benefit of the fans still listening to their rhetoric so they can eventually profit from them. (On an unrelated note, I'm inventorying my old Robotech comics, and remaining quietly astounded that anyone ever thought material this badly written and drawn was marketable. I'm also kind of horrified that the Waltrips attempted to call Robotech a story "With the scope of Frank Herbert's Dune, the two-fisted action of E.E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series, and the larger-than-life characters reminiscent of Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek. Considering the mood the novels were trying to make, that description would fit. It was trying to be a amalgamation of a lot of sci-fi shows/concepts rolled into one. Although, just like the 25th anniversary, it loses its effect when you find out that the shows you've been watching and glorifying since childhood had been available almost two years before you even knew about it in a different language and by different people (original creators).
azrael Posted February 4, 2010 Author Posted February 4, 2010 The way i see it, Tommy Yune is intermixing the Commercial rights (Toys, Comics, Video Games, etc.) with the Intellectual Property rights. That's muddying the truth there. Those are intellectual properties. "Intellectual Property" is a vague term so I really hate using it. http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/ Intellectual property is divided into two categories: Industrial property, which includes inventions (patents), trademarks, industrial designs, and geographic indications of source; and Copyright, which includes literary and artistic works such as novels, poems and plays, films, musical works, artistic works such as drawings, paintings, photographs and sculptures, and architectural designs. Rights related to copyright include those of performing artists in their performances, producers of phonograms in their recordings, and those of broadcasters in their radio and television programs. As I said, the lady could have asked the question better to limit Yune's answer. Otherwise we get the merchandise/trademark answer, which is yes, they can use it.
Jasonc Posted February 5, 2010 Posted February 5, 2010 Yeah, nothing special there. Memo told everyone to check out Part VI, since that had the legal stuff it. Again, Tommy only talks about toys and comics and merchandizing rights, then says that Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles designs were changed because they thought maybe they could sell them in Japan. I just watched the "part VI" youtube. So, basically, the answer was skirted once again. We already knew they could use the designs in merchandise, and as far as a direct yes or no, he went directly into Sentinels. So, now the uneducated in this debate will keep on rolling thinking one thing, while facts are completely different. I doubt Tommy overrides what HG legal has said, and that's why they'll never get a straight answer. The Sentinels comment is more like half truth. as I'm sure they would've liked to have sold it in Japan, but then again, they couldn't even get it off the ground here, I really doubt they would've done it there. So, all that big deal turned out to be nothing new, and was a simple waste of time.
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