HG and Robotech Debates

[BeyondTheGrave]

And as Charlie Brown would say, "Good grief."

Then the teacher says Bwah wowow wow

[RedWolf]

In one of his interviews, Macek said that he pitched that same idea to the networks, but they didn't like it. If he was going to use 3 different shows, then they wanted them to be stitched together, ala Voltron.

Voltron did better stitching up than Robotech's story. Two stories happening the same time rather than generational one.

One Voltron protects a region too far to send ships which was lost and had to be reactivated. Another Voltron is the mainstay of Alliance. Closer to its main territory fighting it main rival empire.

Originally Voltron was supposed to be a trilogy either Daltanias-Golion-Dairugger XV or Golion-Dairugger XV-Albegas.

WEP avoided Robotech's problems by only using two shows that can be connected with similar visual styles and by ordering an original TV movie and a third season from Toei.

[taksraven]

More brilliance from the mind of Maverick_LSC:

:D

FARK!!!

[hulagu]

More brilliance from the mind of Maverick_LSC:

:D

I don't think SC even has any Itano Circuses. Simple missile barrages that veer straight to the target are not the same thing. Apologists would call the circus "unrealistic" anyway.

Plus. the Vajra style neon tracer missiles (if that's what he's talking about) have been around since Macross Zero _at least_.

Edited January 30, 2010 by hulagu

[Einherjar]

Again, why should we care about LSC? He's just baiting people.

[chrisk]

Speaking of Style, I noticed that the glowing neon Itano circus that was first used in Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles back in 2006 was borrowed for 2008's Macross Frontier.

Call it coincidence??? I think not.

Maybe Kawamori is a closet fan of Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles??? I wouldnt' blame him for borrowing some elements of Robotech: The Shadow Chronicles for use in Macross Frontier as the old addage goes...

'Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery'

Please tell me Tommy Yune isn't going to let this slide, especially from one of his trusted "commanders". He's a Macross fan for chrissakes.

[Einherjar]

Please tell me Tommy Yune isn't going to let this slide, especially from one of his trusted "commanders". He's a Macross fan for chrissakes.

For everyone in that situation, in name only, maybe.

[Seto Kaiba]

More brilliance from the mind of Maverick_LSC:

Somehow, it doesn't surprise me at all that Maverick_LSC is trying desperately to come up with some way to convince himself that Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and Robotech itself, was something other than a lame direct-to-DVD movie many Robotech didn't think was all that good, and was ignored by the anime industry at large. He wants a way to validate twenty-plus years of waiting for Harmony Gold to get their act together and produce a sequel. Basically, Maverick's trying to legitimize Robotech and his belief in its superiority by trying to present the illusion that even Macross's creators think Robotech is the better story and are trying to imitate it.

It's errant nonsense, of course... Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles has nothing that even remotely resembles an Itano circus. All they have are a few cases where large numbers of missiles are launched and the mini-missiles swarm together briefly, just once, shortly after launch, and then speed off in straight lines.

[MastaEgg]

The stuff in SC looked more like an Itano Dog and Pony Show compared to a real circus.

Edited January 30, 2010 by MastaEgg

[Wanzerfan]

The stuff in SC looked more like an Itano Dog and Pony Show compared to a real circus.

Yeah, Gonzo should've done something better with their time...

Like making a third VanDread series!!!

[chrisk]

Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles has nothing that even remotely resembles an Itano circus.

Okay, maybe Mav said it to provoke a response from Macross fans. Fine, I'll humor the guy. Wonder what he'd say if I said SC tries to rip off DYRL, albeit with a quarter of the quality and intensity.

[Einherjar]

Okay, maybe Mav said it to provoke a response from Macross fans. Fine, I'll humor the guy. Wonder what he'd say if I said SC tries to rip off DYRL, albeit with a quarter of the quality and intensity.

He'd say you have a Peter Pan Syndrome.

http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...8635&cmd=tc

[Seto Kaiba]

Okay, maybe Mav said it to provoke a response from Macross fans. Fine, I'll humor the guy. Wonder what he'd say if I said SC tries to rip off DYRL, albeit with a quarter of the quality and intensity.

Smart money says he'd deny it flat-out, and attempt to rebut it with the sort of argument only someone who spent the entire day pounding nails into their skull with a tea tray would find even remotely convincing. Then he would no doubt launch into another comical tirade about how fear of Robotech motivated the producers of Star Trek's and Avatar to rush their movies to release, or that Macross's creators were in awe of Shadow Chronicles and decided to copy as much as they could from it to help them compete against Harmony Gold's next sure-fire blockbuster... Shadow Rising... a movie Maverick's been waiting for for over four years!

EDIT: Oh, I forgot... and then he'd accuse you of taking pleasure in the suffering of others and revoke your posting privileges, assuming you were somewhere he could do the latter and get away with it.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[VFTF1]

I don't understand. What's an Itano Circus?

Pete

[Gubaba]

I don't understand. What's an Itano Circus?

Pete

[Jasonc]

Love this show...Mav says something stupid, we ridicule it, and like clockwork, the circus fire brigade come out in comedic fashion to put out the fire. It incites more laughter and ridicule, and just like clowns, attempt to put that fire out. Sad, sad clowns, I'm sure we'll hear it in some podcast to try and feel empowered, and indirectly keep the ball rolling downhill on them.

Sometimes, I really wonder why they attempt to put up these baits even. All it does is backfire everytime on them, and makes them look incredibly stupid. Why not just live happily in their Robotech world with an absence of Macross? Wouldn't that make their world so much easier? Oh, wait, if they do that, their Robotech would disappear. And that's why you'll always have this tension from both sides (well there are other reasons), but you get what I mean.

[Seto Kaiba]

Love this show...Mav says something stupid, we ridicule it, and like clockwork, the circus fire brigade come out in comedic fashion to put out the fire. It incites more laughter and ridicule, and just like clowns, attempt to put that fire out. Sad, sad clowns, I'm sure we'll hear it in some podcast to try and feel empowered, and indirectly keep the ball rolling downhill on them.

While I don't want to (grievously) offend the more levelheaded Robotech fans out there, I really have to say that I honestly think that one of the prerequisites for being a long-time Robotech fan is having faulty pattern recognition skills. Let's face it, a complete and total inability to spot a negative trend as it emerges is the only thing that could keep someone hoping earnestly that Harmony Gold would one day roll out a decent sequel and revive Robotech after 25 years of failure and broken promises. Granted, past performance is no guarantee of future results, but you should still examine the track record and adjust your expectations accordingly.

I'd bet real money that they honestly believe the stupid claims they make on a daily basis are accurate, well-reasoned, informed arguments and that we're just making fun of them out of spite. They don't stop to take stock of what they say because that would mean admitting the things they said were wrong, and they'd much rather believe the delusion that Robotech is a highly successful, wildly popular, genre-defining franchise than accept the grim reality that the majority of few the people who know about it regard it with barely-disguised contempt. They won't ever stop saying the stupid poo that they consistently get ridiculed for because that would entail admitting they've been betting on the wrong horse for over twenty years.

Sometimes, I really wonder why they attempt to put up these baits even. All it does is backfire everytime on them, and makes them look incredibly stupid. Why not just live happily in their Robotech world with an absence of Macross? Wouldn't that make their world so much easier? Oh, wait, if they do that, their Robotech would disappear. And that's why you'll always have this tension from both sides (well there are other reasons), but you get what I mean.

Faulty pattern recognition skills and a frantic desire to validate two decades or more of their lives wasted waiting for a revival that will never come.

Edited January 30, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[taksraven]

I love to go to the circus, thanks for that, its a beautiful vid......

This is for the more academic explanation....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itano_Circus

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

Love this show...Mav says something stupid, we ridicule it, and like clockwork, the circus fire brigade come out in comedic fashion to put out the fire. It incites more laughter and ridicule, and just like clowns, attempt to put that fire out. Sad, sad clowns, I'm sure we'll hear it in some podcast to try and feel empowered, and indirectly keep the ball rolling downhill on them.

From his talkshoe podcast, which really wasn't about Robotech at all and just spent time insulting a lot of them and others before going to a completely different direction, we're giving this elitist blowhard too much attention. It would be better to focus more on HG, since they're the ones that really matter, but in this situation that's not saying much. Remember, it's the 25th anniversary.

[ps99042]

Just got back from Day 1 of the AOD Convention here in San Francisco. It was the first stop for the Robotech Convention Tour and as usual there wasn't much news to report. I'm really surprised how Tommy Yune can keep trying to present Shadow Chronicles and Beta Fighters as new each year. Otherwise, just more role playing games and reprints of old comics. Seems like Shadow Rising won't be seen this year as they barely mentioned it though Tommy said they started production immediately after Shadow Chronicles. One interesting thing he emphasized was that HG can use ANY Macross designs in future productions. His only example was the use of the VF-1 Strike canon on the toys. When the girl who asked the question had him clarify, Tommy said even the character designs could be used in future animation though they changed them in Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles so that they would have a chance of selling Robotech in Japan. Wonder if anyone in Japan has even watched the original Robotech?

[Einherjar]

Hmm, I predict certain people will play it off saying HG is waiting for a bigger event to showcase bigger news for Robotech.

[Aladdin Sane]

One interesting thing he emphasized was that HG can use ANY Macross designs in future productions. His only example was the use of the VF-1 Strike canon on the toys. When the girl who asked the question had him clarify, Tommy said even the character designs could be used in future animation though they changed them in Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles so that they would have a chance of selling Robotech in Japan. Wonder if anyone in Japan has even watched the original Robotech?

So he's outright lying now instead of just being vague and misleading? Huh.

[Seto Kaiba]

Just got back from Day 1 of the AOD Convention here in San Francisco. It was the first stop for the Robotech Convention Tour and as usual there wasn't much news to report.

Well, thanks for wasting a few minutes of your time on our behalf to let us know that the Robotech's 25th promises to be every bit as anticlimactic as we predicted.

I'm really surprised how Tommy Yune can keep trying to present Shadow Chronicles and Beta Fighters as new each year. Otherwise, just more role playing games and reprints of old comics. Seems like Shadow Rising won't be seen this year as they barely mentioned it though Tommy said they started production immediately after Shadow Chronicles.

Honestly, I'm not. If they didn't try to present Shadow Chronicles and the various MPC Beta repaints as new each year they wouldn't have anything to show at all, and that would make for a pretty pathetic booth and panel. Of course, what they're doing now is just as pathetic, but a little less obvious to the casual viewer. If it weren't for the fact that it's the 25th anniversary this year, I'd wonder why they were wasting the money to fly Tommy and company around the country for these conventions. It doesn't accomplish anything.

One interesting thing he emphasized was that HG can use ANY Macross designs in future productions. His only example was the use of the VF-1 Strike canon on the toys. When the girl who asked the question had him clarify, Tommy said even the character designs could be used in future animation though they changed them in Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles so that they would have a chance of selling Robotech in Japan.

Now there's an obvious bit of misdirection if ever I saw one...

It looks like he's trying to, intentionally or otherwise, blur the distinction between merchandise and derivative works in the eyes of the audience by referring to toys as "productions" rather than "products". He's done it before, and it fooled nobody last time either. All the legal documentation and other evidence available indicates quite clearly that Harmony Gold is perfectly at liberty to produce merchandise based on the original Macross series and DYRL, because they hold the merchandising rights to those shows outside of Japan. It seems like Tommy's attempting to generalize his way out of the second issue... their ability to use the character designs. It's impossible for Harmony Gold to use the original Macross (or DYRL) character and mechanical designs in derivative works (animation, live action) because those designs are the copyrighted property of Big West and Studio Nue... neither Harmony Gold nor Tatsunoko Productions have any right to them. The court rulings made sure that wasn't open to debate. It's entirely possible for Harmony Gold to use the Southern Cross and Mospeada designs in derivative works, since those are the property of their partner Tatsunoko. Harmony Gold's original Robotech creative director (Carl Macek) even went on record at Robocon 10 back when he was still working on the franchise to say that they had to redesign the Macross characters for Robotech II: the Sentinels because they couldn't use the originals. Tommy's trying to sidestep the matter by being obtuse.

Wonder if anyone in Japan has even watched the original Robotech?

At one convention panel, Tommy tried to claim Macross was inferior because, according to him, Robotech had been fansubbed into Japanese. All attempts to find this alleged Japanese fansub of Robotech failed.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Funkenstein]

The Robotech fansub is called Astro Plan, fyi.

[ps99042]

No problem seto, I actually sat a couple seats over from MEMO too. I was actually surprised by how many Robotech fans did not know about the origins of Robotech. Some of these "fans" were acting like they were experts too which just shocked me. I won't even get into the discussion we had about Robotech toys with Carl Macek during the video screening. "You mean, the toy figures weren't from Japan?"

[Seto Kaiba]

No problem seto, I actually sat a couple seats over from MEMO too.

I'm astonished the miasma of stupidity that perpetually surrounds him didn't suffocate you.

I was actually surprised by how many Robotech fans did not know about the origins of Robotech. Some of these "fans" were acting like they were experts too which just shocked me. I won't even get into the discussion we had about Robotech toys with Carl Macek during the video screening. "You mean, the toy figures weren't from Japan?"

And that brings me nicely around to prerequisite #2 for being a long-time Robotech fan... you must either be totally ignorant of the show's origins, or be deep enough in denial that you can rationalize the show's origins as something other than an attempt to imitate the success of Transformers and sell lots of transforming robot toys without having to do much, if any, actual creative work.

[taksraven]

At one convention panel, Tommy tried to claim Macross was inferior because, according to him, Robotech had been fansubbed into Japanese. All attempts to find this alleged Japanese fansub of Robotech failed.

That sort of attitude is really funny because you can bet deep down that they really wish they had the ability to cannibalise all Macross productions since DYRL and incorporate them into future Robotech productions.

Thank god they can't.

[Einherjar]

There's still Sunday, I presume that there's going to be activities in the panel tomorrow, right?

[Seto Kaiba]

That sort of attitude is really funny because you can bet deep down that they really wish they had the ability to cannibalise all Macross productions since DYRL and incorporate them into future Robotech productions.

Of course, that isn't stopping MEMO from spreading half-remembered, mostly-false accounts of the AOD panel and what Tommy said as though by distorting it and taking it out of context he could overturn the court rulings and change the way the copyright laws work and give Harmony Gold the ability to use material from Macross in derivative works, which they have NEVER had the right to do.

If PTH actually calls MEMO out on this latest bit of bullshit, I may very well be forced to reconsider my position on his recent bout of intelligent behavior.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

No problem seto, I actually sat a couple seats over from MEMO too. I was actually surprised by how many Robotech fans did not know about the origins of Robotech. Some of these "fans" were acting like they were experts too which just shocked me. I won't even get into the discussion we had about Robotech toys with Carl Macek during the video screening. "You mean, the toy figures weren't from Japan?"

At first I was surprised that people still thought that way, but HG's work behind the scenes has been effective over the years. Also, you have to remember that while a lot of those people probably have gone to Robotech conventions before, they're meeting face to face with the "creators" and talent of Robotech. Being awestruck towards people you glorify is normal.

[Jasonc]

Hmmm, seems that Tommy is, indeed trying to redirect the questions and mislead the RT fans to give them a little pickle tickle. So now productions casually means movie productions. Someone, if you go to these panels, ask them if they can use original Macross designs in new animated or movie productions. If he says yes, I'd assure those people that it's not true, as their legal team will say no. It does seem that they're now in the position where the facade is too heavy to graze with half truths, and is now relegated to flat out misleading the fans. Do they think that telling the truth will piss off the fans? What's truth is truth. That's not gonna change events as they are now. It's hilarious that their's a different reason for events and half truths everytime they get asked a question. I think they're starting to lose track of the lies they tell, and they're getting them mixed up.

[ps99042]

There is Day 2 at AOD on Sunday but I can't justify going back the place for a 1 hour panel. I am tempted to go since Memo was desperately trying to ask a question at the end of today's panel but got denied til tomorrow. Still, I don't think it'll be worth driving an hour to sit for an hour to find out nothing. The dealer room only has 12 dealers too with almost no Macross stuff so I can't even try to get last second deals. Another tidbit I just remembered, Tommy pointed out that the Shadow Chronicles sold "hundreds of thousands of copies" which justifies it's success I suppose. Still, I have a feeling that generalized figure is the sum total of the original release, the special edition, and the Blu-Ray.

[Keith]

Just got back from Day 1 of the AOD Convention here in San Francisco. It was the first stop for the Robotech Convention Tour and as usual there wasn't much news to report. I'm really surprised how Tommy Yune can keep trying to present Shadow Chronicles and Beta Fighters as new each year. Otherwise, just more role playing games and reprints of old comics. Seems like Shadow Rising won't be seen this year as they barely mentioned it though Tommy said they started production immediately after Shadow Chronicles. One interesting thing he emphasized was that HG can use ANY Macross designs in future productions. His only example was the use of the VF-1 Strike canon on the toys. When the girl who asked the question had him clarify, Tommy said even the character designs could be used in future animation though they changed them in Sentinels and Shadow Chronicles so that they would have a chance of selling Robotech in Japan. Wonder if anyone in Japan has even watched the original Robotech?

This is actually 100% true. They can use any Macross mecha, or character designs in future Robotech Productions...via splicing in pre-existing Macross TV footage into said production (ala the sentinels).

[Einherjar]

There is Day 2 at AOD on Sunday but I can't justify going back the place for a 1 hour panel. I am tempted to go since Memo was desperately trying to ask a question at the end of today's panel but got denied til tomorrow. Still, I don't think it'll be worth driving an hour to sit for an hour to find out nothing.

If they didn't show Codename: Robotech today, that's probably an attraction tomorrow. It's just a very rough cut of the clip show episode. AOD doesn't sound big enough for them to reveal something very important for the franchise. They might entice people to go to something like Anime Expo or Comic-Con for something they will supposedly reveal. Everything else is for nostalgia for those in the area where they stop. If that's the case, I hope it won't turn out to be more toys like previous years.

Edited January 31, 2010 by Einherjar

[Seto Kaiba]

It does seem that they're now in the position where the facade is too heavy to graze with half truths, and is now relegated to flat out misleading the fans. Do they think that telling the truth will piss off the fans?

Actually, yes... they probably do think that. I think the specific fear is that if they come clean about their (in)ability to use Macross characters and mecha in future cinematic works they'll lose much of the remaining fanbase. Let's face facts, while Harmony Gold may be an incompetently-run outfit, their employees aren't completely stupid. They can read a trend line in television ratings and merchandise sales as easily as you or I, so they're well aware that over half of their fanbase consistently names the Macross Saga as their favorite part of Robotech, and that interest in Masters Saga and New Generation merchandise is limited at best. Their one accomplishment in the past twenty-four years, the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie, used the promise of revealing the fate of the Macross Saga cast as its primary selling point, and both the cliffhanger end and leaked draft leave no doubt that they intend to continue dangling the promise of Macross Saga characters in front of the dwindling fanbase to keep them interested.

Their fear, which is extremely well-founded, is that if they announce they can't use Macross characters and mecha in the Shadow Rising movie and live-action movie, that interest in the movies will collapse and take their franchise with it.

It's hilarious that their's a different reason for events and half truths everytime they get asked a question. I think they're starting to lose track of the lies they tell, and they're getting them mixed up.

Considering that most of these guys at least claim to have been Robotech fans before joining up at Harmony Gold, you have to stop and wonder if they've just become so used to accepting obvious falsehoods during the time as fans that they've come full circle and believe the lies they're telling.

This is actually 100% true. They can use any Macross mecha, or character designs in future Robotech Productions...via splicing in pre-existing Macross TV footage into said production (ala the sentinels).

Well, okay... you've got us there... they can always take THAT road. Of course, I think the implication was the use of the designs in new material, but whatever... lol