HG and Robotech Debates

[VFTF1]

I've heard this trash about Macross Frontier before. It's no coincidence that he mentions the UC timelines from Gundam either.

Sorry to bash Gundam fans all of a sudden - but I get the impression that Gundam fans are some of the people who go bashing Macross Frontier in favor of Robotech, because Robotech is more like Gundam insofar as it's just warwarwarwarwar and the whole singing/music/culture aspect is pushed into the background and ultimately really just DROPPED by Shadow Chronicles.

This is typical Mecha-head talk where the only exciting and worthwhile thing about Macross is lots of warfare, and where there is a delusional view of Macross (SDFM TV) being all about war and battles - when of course it really isn't.

The hostility towards Macross Zero is also pointless.

And finally - I guess the idea behind the 'people prefer 7 and II' is that those were more original than Frontier. But as has been stated on numerous occasions, Frontier was an homage and celebration of 25 years of Macross - so really it was explicitly aiming at paying tribute to all the previous Macross series. Within that context, it had some great original character work.

Finally - and I'm not gonna write this for the ten zillionth time (check the Macross Frontier episode threads for my full exposition on this) - but the characters and story lines in MF are not carbon copies of things that happened before.

Even the "new enemy and idol singers save the day" tag is wrong... but whatever...

As for WB/HG/LAM...yawn...again...whatever... it's coming to the point where making the arguments is useless.

[Gubaba]

I've heard this trash about Macross Frontier before. It's no coincidence that he mentions the UC timelines from Gundam either.

Sorry to bash Gundam fans all of a sudden - but I get the impression that Gundam fans are some of the people who go bashing Macross Frontier in favor of Robotech, because Robotech is more like Gundam insofar as it's just warwarwarwarwar and the whole singing/music/culture aspect is pushed into the background and ultimately really just DROPPED by Shadow Chronicles.

Not entirely...there IS the big singing sequence at the end of Shadow Chronicles...it's just that no one ever mentions it.

Also, I'm a BIG fan of the UC timeline for Gundam. Most of the old-school Gundam fans I know are also Macross fans. None of them are Robotech fans. Now that is just MY experience; others may differ. But I think you're unfairly targeting a group of people who have nothing to do with this discussion.

And finally - I guess the idea behind the 'people prefer 7 and II' is that those were more original than Frontier. But as has been stated on numerous occasions, Frontier was an homage and celebration of 25 years of Macross - so really it was explicitly aiming at paying tribute to all the previous Macross series. Within that context, it had some great original character work.

Finally - and I'm not gonna write this for the ten zillionth time (check the Macross Frontier episode threads for my full exposition on this) - but the characters and story lines in MF are not carbon copies of things that happened before.

It's funny how that keeps getting brought up again and again by Robotech fans. It's like they watched the first three or four episodes and then never saw the rest of the show. I thought it was interesting the way that Frontier started off kinda winking at the viewer, saying "Oh, look, here's the new Hikaru. And Focker. And Max. And Minmay..." and then started screwing around with the formula. "Max" dies; "Focker" lives; "Minmay" sings against the good guys; in the end, the aliens aren't anywhere near as big a threat as other humans. And the singers weren't the ones who stopped the bad guys.

But I guess the RT fans made p their minds early and never really let the show get in the way of their opinions. Their loss.

[Funkenstein]

Gundam is the opposite of Robotech, safely to say. Bandai isn't dumb enough to piss off all the fans of the franchise by producing dreck made by low-paid Korean laborers. The stories in Gundam, including AU stories, are often very mature with themes of the horrors of war being the main binding tie. Robotech? Robotech is about a bunch of featureless characters trying to make themselves seem significant.

Robotech fans dont watch anime for the most part (How often do you see Robotech talk about VOTOMS or Madox-01?). So saying Robotech is similar to Gundam is like telling a Chinese person that Japanese is similar. There may be a superficial similarity, but its not understandable.

[azrael]

Not entirely...there IS the big singing sequence at the end of Shadow Chronicles...it's just that no one ever mentions it.

Remind me please; did that singing sequence even have a point in that production? I don't recall it having any significance other than boobs.

[Seto Kaiba]

Remind me please; did that singing sequence even have a point in that production? I don't recall it having any significance other than boobs.

No, your memory's sound... having Chase Masterson's character (Janice Em2) sing that horrible old Minmei song "We will win" in a voice almost as ear-bleedingly bad as Rebecca Forstadt's original performance didn't really serve any purpose in the film, except giving them some theoretically plaintive-yet-hopeful background music while they panned backwards out the Ark Angel's window. Chase Masterson's other music number about midway through the film, equally awful, had little purpose other than allowing them to show off Janice's massive rack in a low-cut slurmty dress (rather, a holographic projection of such, since Janice is a robot) and provide fodder for a halfhearted attempt to inject some romantic tension Marcus and Maia's relationship.

[Gubaba]

Remind me please; did that singing sequence even have a point in that production? I don't recall it having any significance other than boobs.

I'm not saying it had a point...I'm just saying it's there.

[Einherjar]

Maverick_LSC has been waiting for Shadow Rising and Robotech's revival for 4+ years.

Context is very important when analyzing posts like that.

Maverick_LSC has been waiting for Shadow Rising and Robotech's revival for 4+years.

It helps give a good picture of whether or not the whole thing is bias in one way or another.

Maverick_LSC has been waiting for Shadow Rising and Robotech's revival for four years.

It also helps to know a little bit about the writer, his position and etc., to give it the kind of attention it deserves.

MAVERICK_LSC HAS BEEN WAITING FOR SHADOW RISING AND ROBOTECH'S REVIVAL FOR 4+YEARS.

Please do not drag Gundam into your personal vendetta.

[chrisk]

The ONLY reason that anime gets "pirated" so much is NOT because anime fans and otaku are pirates and evil. It's because between the time that an anime comes out in Japan and the time when some corporate suits sign a licensing agreement and issue it in Europe or the USA, you usually have a lapse of at least a year - sometimes two or three years.

And somtimes - like in Poland - it just NEVER gets licensed.

Where I live in the Philippines, an entire generation is being brought up on the fact that entire anime series on DVD should cost lest than five dollars. Oh well.

Shadow Chronicles had a unique storyline??? Really? Plotwise???

Shadow Chronicles takes timeless story elements from various source. Kinda like Avatar!!

Chase Masterson's other music number about midway through the film, equally awful, had little purpose other than allowing them to show off Janice's massive rack in a low-cut slurmty dress (rather, a holographic projection of such, since Janice is a robot) and provide fodder for a halfhearted attempt to inject some romantic tension Marcus and Maia's relationship.

I like scenes like that, and then the characters comment "She's an amazing singer!", and then I go... "NO."

Maverick_LSC has been waiting for Shadow Rising and Robotech's revival for four years.

I've been waiting for Harmony Gold to go bankrupt for about the same...

Edited January 27, 2010 by chrisk

[Einherjar]

Honestly, why take anything that mod says seriously anymore. This is the same guy who said that Paramount was quaking in their boots about the Robotech LAM that it severely affected Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. He's also the guy who said some fans suffer from OCD on rt.com and generally talks like he's a jack of all trades and Hollywood. It's just another overblown speech with very unreliable information and bias from the same people. It absolutely hinges on HG doing anything besides offering merchandise to the public. His Robotech used to be about stories, remember? And reprints of the work done by the Creative Director every few years does not count.

If it helps, whenever this happens, remember this:

X has been waiting for Shadow Rising and Robotech's revival for 4+ years.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Einherjar

[Robelwell202]

Gubaba wrote:

It's funny how that keeps getting brought up again and again by Robotech fans. It's like they watched the first three or four episodes and then never saw the rest of the show. I thought it was interesting the way that Frontier started off kinda winking at the viewer, saying "Oh, look, here's the new Hikaru. And Focker. And Max. And Minmay..." and then started screwing around with the formula. "Max" dies; "Focker" lives; "Minmay" sings against the good guys; in the end, the aliens aren't anywhere near as big a threat as other humans. And the singers weren't the ones who stopped the bad guys.

I've had something of an alternate theory on the open hostility displayed by RT fans towards MacF. It goes something like this.

First, we start with the RT-fanboy. Now, this RT-fanboy goes well above and beyond the standard T-fan, in that he carries an assumtion that RT is totally and perfectly amazing, and Harmony Gold cannot make a single mistake. ("No! HG doesn't suck! They're simply waiting for the most advantagous time to strike! Four years? Pphphpttt!!! Do you know how long it took Winston Churchill to start WW2?")

Next, expose RT-fanboy to RT:TSC. RT-fanboy is extatic! RT-fanboy is delerious with joy! RT-fanboy is amazed at the stupendous wuality of this amazing new work of art!

Then, expose RT-fanboy to something like Mac0. RT-fanboy says "Puh-LEEZE!!! This is just a fluke! Besides, they got MAJOR story aspects wrong! The crash of the SDF-1 didn't start a war, it ended the Global Civil War! And, no, the protoculture didn't leave any kind of artiact on Earth! Protoculture didn't even exist until Zor ound it!"

And then, expose RT-fanboy to MacF. RT-fanboy is confused. RT-fanboy is shocked! "Wait a damn minute. This... doesn't... suck. This is... good! But wait! This isn't something that was made by Harmony Gold, so it MUST suck somewhere, in some way... I gotta get into this thing, and find all the ways it stinks."

Then, RT-fanboy does his level best to manufacture some proof that MacF (And, by extension, Mac0) does, indeed, suffer greatly from not having the divine influence of the Yun(e)s.

"Now, see here? That's not even a real VF-1. Oh, damn! She's naked, in outer space, during a galactic war! Son of a... I don't believe it! That guy's played a woman in a Japanese theater?!? He's GOTTA be gay!!!"

This way, RT-fanboy gets to validate everything he believes about Robotech, and the Shadow Chronicles.

"So what if the CG looked like a ninth-grader did it? It's still better! I mean, you've got no naked chicks, but the chicks that are there (Except for that one on the ship's bridge that talks in a monotone) have big boobs!!! I mean, that's quality, I tell you!!! Story? What's that got to do with anything? I think it's brilliant!!!"

Followed shortly by...

"Yes, mom... I'll take the garbage out."

----------

That's just my theory, though...

[Seto Kaiba]

Maverick_LSC has been waiting for Shadow Rising and Robotech's revival for 4+ years.

Context is very important when analyzing posts like that.

Yes... yes it is... though in rather a different way then you meant, perhaps.

For Maverick_LSC to say he's been waiting 4+ years for Robotech's revival is a masterpiece of understatement. It'd probably be more accurate to say he's been waiting 20+ years for that, but then again that just makes him sound like a desperate loser with lousy pattern recognition skills who can't accept that his favorite childhood TV show bombed back in 1986. More importantly, if he's been waiting 4+ years for Shadow Rising... the boy must be clairvoyant. How else could he be waiting 4+ years for the Shadow Chronicles sequel that was announced less than three years ago?

I like scenes like that, and then the characters comment "She's an amazing singer!", and then I go... "NO."

Well, Robotech's standards for quality music are abnormally low... their great cosmic idol is a singer who makes the worst one-hit wonders look like timeless classics, voiced by a woman who had to get shitfaced drunk before she had the courage to warble those horrible songs. I remember what BlackRose said when she first saw that scene... "Now this is a brave new world... one where masochism isn't just socially acceptable, it's a favorite group recreational activity! Let's all go to the mess hall and suffer horribly for a half-hour!".

Honestly, why take anything that mod says seriously anymore. This is the same guy who said that Paramount was quaking in their boots about the Robotech LAM that it severely affected Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. He's also the guy who said some fans suffer from OCD on rt.com and generally talks like he's a jack of all trades and Hollywood. It's just another overblown speech with very unreliable information and bias from the same people.

Pretty much nobody, except the few n00bs too green to know better.

Bear ye in mind that the reason Maverick_LSC thinks he's a film industry expert and Hollywood insider is because he does his own (awful) amateur films, some of which he posted here in a pathetic attempt to troll me, and claims to be occasionally talking to Kevin McKeever. The guy's a massive blowhard who goes to extreme lengths to make himself look like a bigshot because he has a unglamorous day job in aircraft maintenance and a wife who treats his anime hobby like something sick or criminal that needs to be hidden from their friends and neighbors at all costs. His buddy and backup is a rent-a-cop who emptied his family's bank accounts for Robotech and thinks he's a film industry legal expert and Robotech guru because he claims to have talked over the legal situation with a film industry lawyer he can't name, and has had Carl Macek at his fansite convention booth.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Moly_Sigang]

IMO, it sounds like Maverick and several of these 'HG puppets' are just sour graping because the Macross franchise is moving forward and producing great sequels and gaining a lot of buzz while Robotech remained stagnant. This sort of behavior is what you call 'Crab Mentality'. They're idea is that, if Robotech can't gain that much success, then neither should Macross. So they bash on Macross because they resent it's success and try to put it down by creating superficial arguments (i.e. Macross Frontier are for Pedophiles). This kind of attitude is really pathetic.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Moly_Sigang

[Einherjar]

Yes... yes it is... though in rather a different way then you meant, perhaps.

For Maverick_LSC to say he's been waiting 4+ years for Robotech's revival is a masterpiece of understatement. It'd probably be more accurate to say he's been waiting 20+ years for that, but then again that just makes him sound like a desperate loser with lousy pattern recognition skills who can't accept that his favorite childhood TV show bombed back in 1986. More importantly, if he's been waiting 4+ years for Shadow Rising... the boy must be clairvoyant. How else could he be waiting 4+ years for the Shadow Chronicles sequel that was announced less than three years ago?

Yeah, yeah, Shadow Chronicles will be 4 years old in August and etc. At this rate it will still be true even if significant news on Shadow Rising or the LAM actually comes out this year, of all years, since HG's work is unbearably slow historically.

[Zen72]

Well, I've also been an object of Maverick_LSC (Loves Shadow Chronicles) obsessive behavior. The guy downloads my podcast every week and visits my blog on a regular basis. Now granted I've had some fun at his and Memo's expense. But I've gone so far as to address him directly reminding him that it's him I'm taking my shots at...giving to him the benefit of the doubt (though I do say Robotech.com mods and mention him by name)....yet he still comes..

He's also left me a love note on my blog and I quote;

So how many ***** did you suck to get this standing on Macrossworld. Dumb ass!!!

Seems to have it in for this place I guess...probably because he was ONE AND DONE with his podcast...(SHRUGS)

He tells fans who don't agree with his views that they have OCD. He's quick to tell everyone how he has a much more "significant" life than the rest of us. Paramount Studios is quaking in their boots because of a RLAM...etc..etc and etc....

He needs to come with a set of instructions...OPEN MOUTH & INSERT FOOT HERE!

NOW I see that he checked my profile here too..and so it continues...

A few theories on why he's stalking people;

- He runs to his keeper Kevin Mckeever to cry about how evil we are to him.

- He wants us to quake in our boots by his mere presence.

- He's planning to send us pamphlets titled "How Harmony Gold can save your soul, because it saved mine!"

- He's one seriously disturbed individual.

He keeps it up and he's going to wind up from MW to AMW (America's Most Wanted)

I'll have a few things to say about his obsessive behavior on my next RandomCast. As always...I'll have fun with him!

Oh and by the way.....HI THERE MAVERICK!!!!! THANKS FOR STOPPING BY!!!

Thanks!

Zen72--JT

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, yeah, Shadow Chronicles will be 4 years old in August and etc. At this rate it will still be true even if significant news on Shadow Rising or the LAM actually comes out this year, of all years, since HG's work is unbearably slow historically.

Yes, the Shadow Chronicles movie will have been out for 4 years this August, but only actually available to the fans for three (as it went on sale in January 07)... the pertinent point is that the existence of a sequel was not even announced until February '07 and wasn't named until July '07. So for Maverick_LSC or anyone else to have been waiting for a sequel to the movie for 4+ years, they would've had to know about it back in or before January 2006, well before even Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles came out, and if memory serves, before the name "Shadow Chronicles" had even come to light. At or around that point it was still known tentatively as Robotech: Shadow Force, an interim name it held between being Robotech 2004 and its final title.

[Wanzerfan]

Well, I've also been an object of Maverick_LSC (Loves Shadow Chronicles) obsessive behavior. The guy downloads my podcast every week and visits my blog on a regular basis. Now granted I've had some fun at his and Memo's expense. But I've gone so far as to address him directly reminding him that it's him I'm taking my shots at...giving to him the benefit of the doubt (though I do say Robotech.com mods and mention him by name)....yet he still comes..

He's also left me a love note on my blog and I quote;

So how many ***** did you suck to get this standing on Macrossworld. Dumb ass!!!

Seems to have it in for this place I guess...probably because he was ONE AND DONE with his podcast...(SHRUGS)

He tells fans who don't agree with his views that they have OCD. He's quick to tell everyone how he has a much more "significant" life than the rest of us. Paramount Studios is quaking in their boots because of a RLAM...etc..etc and etc....

He needs to come with a set of instructions...OPEN MOUTH & INSERT FOOT HERE!

NOW I see that he checked my profile here too..and so it continues...

A few theories on why he's stalking people;

- He runs to his keeper Kevin Mckeever to cry about how evil we are to him.

- He wants us to quake in our boots by his mere presence.

- He's planning to send us pamphlets titled "How Harmony Gold can save your soul, because it saved mine!"

- He's one seriously disturbed individual.

He keeps it up and he's going to wind up from MW to AMW (America's Most Wanted)

I'll have a few things to say about his obsessive behavior on my next RandomCast. As always...I'll have fun with him!

Oh and by the way.....HI THERE MAVERICK!!!!! THANKS FOR STOPPING BY!!!

Thanks!

Zen72--JT

I'm suprised that the son of a bitch didn't ask if you swallowed, by the way he structured that comment. Edited January 28, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[HappyPenguins]

I'm suprised that the son of a bitch didn't ask if you swallowed, by the way he structured that comment.

XD

[Jasonc]

Well, I've also been an object of Maverick_LSC (Loves Shadow Chronicles) obsessive behavior. The guy downloads my podcast every week and visits my blog on a regular basis. Now granted I've had some fun at his and Memo's expense. But I've gone so far as to address him directly reminding him that it's him I'm taking my shots at...giving to him the benefit of the doubt (though I do say Robotech.com mods and mention him by name)....yet he still comes..

He's also left me a love note on my blog and I quote;

So how many ***** did you suck to get this standing on Macrossworld. Dumb ass!!!

Seems to have it in for this place I guess...probably because he was ONE AND DONE with his podcast...(SHRUGS)

He tells fans who don't agree with his views that they have OCD. He's quick to tell everyone how he has a much more "significant" life than the rest of us. Paramount Studios is quaking in their boots because of a RLAM...etc..etc and etc....

And this coming from a Robotech fan. At what point do the mods realize that they need to fix the weeds in their own yard before trying to clean up a Robotech house. That's not even talking about them trying to say what should/shouldn't be fixed in another franchise. Some of those examples of Maverick's "brilliant quotes" seem to be at the point where he has gotten frustrated enough to burst out, and make personal attacks. One of the so-called voices of HG. Perhaps wanting to get everyone to believe in the Robotech "New King Mod" version is wearing at them, especially since it seems to be driving the fans away more than bringing them together. Heck, maybe they should be called Macross purists for their disruptive behavior on rt.com and causing division amongst the true Robotech fans. You know, if it wasn't for people like the mods, or lil dougie bento, I think the Macross and RT franchises would be at a happy peace.

What they need to understand is that we don't ridicule every RT fan, and it's not so much even that, that is ridiculed. But rather, it's these certain ones that create the volatile fuel and perpetuate the animosity between both sides. In once being tied to both sides equally, there is a happy medium in liking both, if that is what people claim, and what people want. It's why I have friends on both sides. As JT/Zen72 has pointed out in his multiple podcasts, it is the hate, and discourse, that these mods and their followers spread that keep not only their franchise from doing anything, but invite the scrutiny from RT and Macross fans.

As for the trolling of mods here, if they feel the need to do so, it doesn't bother me at all. I find it quite funny, and lets me know again, that we're saying something right, and exposing something that bothers them. Oh, well, keep it coming.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, I've also been an object of Maverick_LSC (Loves Shadow Chronicles) obsessive behavior.

Considering his almost Bendo-esque penis fixation where you're concerned, one might wonder if it isn't all projection caused by some deep-seated inner turmoil over his own sexual orientation... who knows, the "LSC" in Maverick_LSC might very well stand for Likes Sucking... well... you can fill the rest in for yourself, it shouldn't be too difficult.

NOW I see that he checked my profile here too..and so it continues...

Not surprising, he seems to find something terribly fascinating about my profile, considering he seems to be checking it roughly every 24 hours or so. I didn't think my "About Me" section was THAT captivating...

A few theories on why he's stalking people;

- He runs to his keeper Kevin Mckeever to cry about how evil we are to him.

- He wants us to quake in our boots by his mere presence.

- He's planning to send us pamphlets titled "How Harmony Gold can save your soul, because it saved mine!"

- He's one seriously disturbed individual.

While I'm not sure about #3 there, it's no secret Maverick_LSC and MEMO1DOMINION both make a hobby of spying on "dissenters" who visit message boards like this one and periodically report any criticism directed towards Harmony Gold and/or Robotech so their RT.com profiles can be earmarked for a speedy ban on entirely trumped-up charges. No doubt he not only expects Robotech and Macross fans to be in awe of him because he claims to have insider knowledge of the goings-on at Harmony Gold (something he's never been able to prove) and because of his moderator status on Robotech.com. It wouldn't surprise me at all if he expects anyone here with an active RT.com account to be afraid that he'll shut it down for speaking heresy. ;-)

For some reason, as I was writing this I was struck by just how very much Maverick_LSC's acting like an Imperial Commissar from Warhammer 40,000... the only significant difference being that instead of screaming "HERESY!" and shooting the offender, he screams "HERESY!" and reaches for the ban button wherever he has the power to do so...

Some call Maverick_LSC's methods "unconventional", "questionable", or "ethnically unsound", but Maverick_LSC knows what notions like that are: HERESY. Fortunately for us, he wants to clear up a few things.

Now you might be wondering, just what is "heresy"? Is criticizing Tommy Yune's work as Robotech's creative director heresy?

Maverick_LSC: IT'S HERESY!

How about criticizing Carl Macek's work on the original Robotech series?

Maverick_LSC: IT'S HERESY!

Liking Macross more than Robotech?

Maverick_LSC: THAT'S EXTRA HERETICAL!

Protecting the minds of Robotech fans from heresy is hard work, but it's certain to pay off eventually, right?

Edited January 28, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Yes, the Shadow Chronicles movie will have been out for 4 years this August, but only actually available to the fans for three (as it went on sale in January 07)... the pertinent point is that the existence of a sequel was not even announced until February '07 and wasn't named until July '07. So for Maverick_LSC or anyone else to have been waiting for a sequel to the movie for 4+ years, they would've had to know about it back in or before January 2006, well before even Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles came out, and if memory serves, before the name "Shadow Chronicles" had even come to light. At or around that point it was still known tentatively as Robotech: Shadow Force, an interim name it held between being Robotech 2004 and its final title.

I guess I don't know much about a franchise I do not believe in then. It's cool, the thing is on youtube and Hulu, making it as good as public domain these days.

Anyway, it did end on a cliffhanger. What, regardless of their reaction to it, were people who watched Shadow Chronicles on the earliest release possible (theater or whatnot) expecting HG NOT to think about doing a sequel? It was heavily implied by the end of it that there had to be one without them making an official announcement for one. That is, unless this was the Sentinel's Curse all over again. I stand by what I said, immediately after watching Shadow Chronicles, fans were already waiting for a nameless sequel because for that film to really work it needs one, and a prequel, by default.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Einherjar

[Beltane70]

I thought it did have a prequel. I think it was called "New Generation" or something of the like!

[Seto Kaiba]

Anyway, it did end on a cliffhanger. What, regardless of their reaction to it, were people who watched Shadow Chronicles on the earliest release possible (theater or whatnot) expecting HG NOT to think about doing a sequel?

For pretty much any rational Robotech fan (yes, they DO exist) the prospect of any RT project actually being seen through to the end is almost unthinkable. In Robotech's long, sordid history, Robotech projects that didn't meet their end in failure and cancellation are astonishingly rare commodities. Given the mixed reception Shadow Chronicles got, I'd be surprised if more than a few of the rational fans were expecting a continuation of any kind. The general sentiments I saw from their corner were that Shadow Chronicles was going to be another Sentinels... a weak pilot for a series that never got off the ground. Considering all the delaying and double-talk surrounding Shadow Rising, they may yet be vindicated in that belief too...

I stand by what I said, immediately after watching Shadow Chronicles, fans were already waiting for a nameless sequel because for that film to really work it needs one, and a prequel, by default.

Yeah... but that still doesn't make the 4+ years statement work out... it comes up about eight months short of the 4 year mark at the absolute earliest.

[Einherjar]

Yeah... but that still doesn't make the 4+ years statement work out... it comes up about eight months short of the 4 year mark at the absolute earliest.

Sigh, fine, you win. For the sake of better accuracy:

Maverick_LSC has been waiting for Shadow Rising and Robotech's revival for 3 years and 4 months!

[VFTF1]

Not entirely...there IS the big singing sequence at the end of Shadow Chronicles...it's just that no one ever mentions it.

Also, I'm a BIG fan of the UC timeline for Gundam. Most of the old-school Gundam fans I know are also Macross fans. None of them are Robotech fans. Now that is just MY experience; others may differ. But I think you're unfairly targeting a group of people who have nothing to do with this discussion.

It's funny how that keeps getting brought up again and again by Robotech fans. It's like they watched the first three or four episodes and then never saw the rest of the show. I thought it was interesting the way that Frontier started off kinda winking at the viewer, saying "Oh, look, here's the new Hikaru. And Focker. And Max. And Minmay..." and then started screwing around with the formula. "Max" dies; "Focker" lives; "Minmay" sings against the good guys; in the end, the aliens aren't anywhere near as big a threat as other humans. And the singers weren't the ones who stopped the bad guys.

But I guess the RT fans made p their minds early and never really let the show get in the way of their opinions. Their loss.

Gubaba wrote:

I've had something of an alternate theory on the open hostility displayed by RT fans towards MacF. It goes something like this.

First, we start with the RT-fanboy. Now, this RT-fanboy goes well above and beyond the standard T-fan, in that he carries an assumtion that RT is totally and perfectly amazing, and Harmony Gold cannot make a single mistake. ("No! HG doesn't suck! They're simply waiting for the most advantagous time to strike! Four years? Pphphpttt!!! Do you know how long it took Winston Churchill to start WW2?")

Next, expose RT-fanboy to RT:TSC. RT-fanboy is extatic! RT-fanboy is delerious with joy! RT-fanboy is amazed at the stupendous wuality of this amazing new work of art!

Then, expose RT-fanboy to something like Mac0. RT-fanboy says "Puh-LEEZE!!! This is just a fluke! Besides, they got MAJOR story aspects wrong! The crash of the SDF-1 didn't start a war, it ended the Global Civil War! And, no, the protoculture didn't leave any kind of artiact on Earth! Protoculture didn't even exist until Zor ound it!"

And then, expose RT-fanboy to MacF. RT-fanboy is confused. RT-fanboy is shocked! "Wait a damn minute. This... doesn't... suck. This is... good! But wait! This isn't something that was made by Harmony Gold, so it MUST suck somewhere, in some way... I gotta get into this thing, and find all the ways it stinks."

Then, RT-fanboy does his level best to manufacture some proof that MacF (And, by extension, Mac0) does, indeed, suffer greatly from not having the divine influence of the Yun(e)s.

"Now, see here? That's not even a real VF-1. Oh, damn! She's naked, in outer space, during a galactic war! Son of a... I don't believe it! That guy's played a woman in a Japanese theater?!? He's GOTTA be gay!!!"

This way, RT-fanboy gets to validate everything he believes about Robotech, and the Shadow Chronicles.

"So what if the CG looked like a ninth-grader did it? It's still better! I mean, you've got no naked chicks, but the chicks that are there (Except for that one on the ship's bridge that talks in a monotone) have big boobs!!! I mean, that's quality, I tell you!!! Story? What's that got to do with anything? I think it's brilliant!!!"

Followed shortly by...

"Yes, mom... I'll take the garbage out."

----------

That's just my theory, though...

Re: Singing sequence:

You call that a singing sequence?...

Re: UC/MF:

Yes, well - I'm also a UC fan - but we're definitely just talking about different people. I have just encountered folks on my end of the pond who are ostensibly big UC fans, and Gundam fans in general, but who hate Macross Frontier - not necessarily for the benefit of Robotech, but certainly using the same arguments that we here often hear from RT.com folks about why it sucks.

Personally, I of course think it's a delusional comparisson and agree that Gundam should have nothing to do with the discussion - I just mentioned it since it seems Mav mentioned it.

Re: Reasons For the Misunderstanding regarding "copying Macross" in MF:

I think part of the problem is that people have really bad memories and don't think. The character dynamics were totally different on all fronts when you get down to it. There was no clear Minmey character - Sheryl Nome and Ranka Lee had traits of Minmey, Mao, Sarah, Myung... and really all of the characters and situations were mixed hues of things that had come before with a twist.

I've written tons of pages going into specific detail comparing Macross Frontier characters to SDFM characters going up against detractors whose line of argumentation was just that - a LINE - and usually no more sophisticated than "Alto and Hikaru both had red lines on their Valkyrie" or "Michael and Max both wore glasses" (so did Michael from M7...who was also blond...but I'll stop 'cuase I don't wanna repeat myself)...

Anyways - one of the things that gets me plane tired of arguing with people about stuff like this is that it's often just like arguments Seto has had with Memo or the ones that have been conducted on this board with Doug Bendo: on the one hand a wall of well reasoned arguments - on the other hand something remotely reminiscent of the ramblings of a 15 year old who uses a vaccum cleaner to give himself blow jobs, eats pencil graphite for breakfast and drinks it down with a hearty dose of printer ink while sniffing glue.

I have come to the point where I admit to just not understanding the "thought process" of Robotech fans or of people who critique Macross Frontier on the grounds of it being just a boring carbon copy of the original.

I freely admit that either I am 100% right and they are nuts, or I'm just ignorant and too stupid to see the light of their brilliant views.

Pete

Edited January 28, 2010 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

Re: Singing sequence:

You call that a singing sequence?...

It's clearly a sequence in the movie, and someone is indeed singing. So yes.

I didn't say it was a good singing sequence...

I have come to the point where I admit to just not understanding the "thought process" of Robotech fans or of people who critique Macross Frontier on the grounds of it being just a boring carbon copy of the original.

I freely admit that either I am 100% right and they are nuts, or I'm just ignorant and too stupid to see the light of their brilliant views.

Pete

Enh, they're just missing the forest for the trees. Let 'em carp. Anyone with half an ounce of sense will see that their arguments don't make sense.

[Einherjar]

It's clearly a sequence in the movie, and someone is indeed singing. So yes.

I didn't say it was a good singing sequence...

There was this, at around 8:50 to the end. That's it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYuHYTprkA

Ignore that fact that this was during wartime, a lot of people just died, and she's a robot that disrobed into something more comfortable and now singing for no reason at all.

[VFTF1]

Well I always considered Janice's singing sequence to be an excellent summation of the way that Harmony Gold's creative team has always viewed song, and Minmey in Macross: namely - singing is pointless.

all that was missing from Shadow Chronicles was someone to shout "Protoculture!" when Stick and RedHead kissed (if they did kiss...I'm just assuming...somebody must have kissed...did anybody kiss?)

Pete

[RDClip]

It's so absurd that anyone would ever try to group RT with Gundam. One is the biggest friggen mecha franchise of all time (in quantity and probaby money spent on and money made from) and the other is a frankenstein series that experienced moderate success in the mid '80s. Guess which one is which.

Anyone wanna predict where RT will be in another 25 years?

I say the LAM falls through and HG eventually tries to dump the series. By this point the franchise isn't worth crap, so the resident RT crazies buy the franchise and run it out of their basement. They have no money and the fanbase is all but gone. The best they can do is produce fanfic-quality novels and comics.

All the while Macross produces an additional 2 TV series, 4 OVAs, and 3 movies and has introduced dozens of new valkyrie designs. Thus, making millions in revenue and bringing in thousands of new fans. Eventually, acquiring their trademarks and licenses in the rest of the world.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well I always considered Janice's singing sequence to be an excellent summation of the way that Harmony Gold's creative team has always viewed song, and Minmey in Macross: namely - singing is pointless.

Remember, one of the areas where Carl Macek insists he improved on the original Macross series with his Robotech adaptation was eliminating music as an important plot device and making Minmay into an obnoxious twit with "marginal talent" with the stated intention of showing that even a misguided person can make a difference.

Just like virtually every claim of intent the man makes with regard to the production of the Robotech "original 85", this is almost certainly something he came up with after the fact to perpetuate the illusion he created Robotech according to some grand preconceived vision rather than slapping it together in an amusingly haphazard manner like he alludes to during his earliest interviews. As if he was completely and totally determined to set off every bullshit detector in the house, he then went on to claims Macross's sequels were moving away from giving music a central role in the story and that it was likely the result of Robotech's influence. Now, just to put this bullshit in context, this "interview" of his was posted on 21 May 2001... at which point the state of the Macross franchise renders the remarks he made so obviously wrong they verge on comical.

It's so absurd that anyone would ever try to group RT with Gundam. One is the biggest friggen mecha franchise of all time (in quantity and probaby money spent on and money made from) and the other is a frankenstein series that experienced moderate success in the mid '80s. Guess which one is which.

Remember, a major part of Harmony Gold's efforts to keep the Robotech franchise limping along is giving the fans an exaggerated impression of the franchise's popularity and influence, along with a rather heavily rose-tinted and extensively censored account of its history. All too often, they mistake fantasy for fact and assert that Robotech is great classic of both anime and science fiction that rivals much more successful titles like Star Trek, Star Wars, Macross, and Gundam in popularity and influence.

Some of them you can blame for it, namely the ones who bought into the lies of Tommy, Kevin, and their lackeys because they didn't know any better. Others, like those lackeys themselves, just have a tenuous grip on reality and don't want to accept that it really is just an obscure show with VERY limited niche appeal.

Anyone wanna predict where RT will be in another 25 years?

Unless the live-action movie actually makes it to release and resuscitates the slowly cooling corpse that is Robotech, it'll never make it to 50 years. It'll be a bad footnote in Macross history LONG before then.

[taksraven]

Sigh, fine, you win. For the sake of better accuracy:

Maverick_LSC has been waiting for Shadow Rising and Robotech's revival for 3 years and 4 months!

Look, for the sake of perfect accuracy, can you please calculate that down to weeks, days, hours, minutes and seconds.

Taksraven

Edited January 28, 2010 by taksraven

[VFTF1]

Remember, one of the areas where Carl Macek insists he improved on the original Macross series with his Robotech adaptation was eliminating music as an important plot device and making Minmay into an obnoxious twit with "marginal talent" with the stated intention of showing that even a misguided person can make a difference.

He makes it hard to forget... But... remind me...or enlighten me please...what was his reasoning behind this? I'm really curious to see him explain it.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

He makes it hard to forget... But... remind me...or enlighten me please...what was his reasoning behind this? I'm really curious to see him explain it.

Ask and ye shall receive... from part 1 of Robotech.com's Carl Macek fan interview, published 10 May 2001:

kurtkr asks: Was it your intention for the Minmei character to be so annoying or did it just turn out that way?

Carl Macek says: It was always my belief that Minmei's immediate popularity onboard the SDF-1 was a bitter pill to swallow. Therefore, if her "talent" was marginal - but her "spirit" was high - it could show that even misguided personalities like "Minmei" could have a positive effect on people and dramatic situations. Melodrama is made up by extremes - and Robotech was played as melodrama - remember these characters are archetypes.

and from part 2 of same, published 21 May 2001:

Carl Macek says: First the storyline of Macross has major flaws, primarily the concept of "music" as a weapon to be used against the alien invaders - these flaws have been addressed in the subsequent exploitation of the Macross franchise in Japan - in fact it seems that these new variations on Macross seem to be influenced more by Robotech than by an outgrowth of the Macross plot. That said, the goal of Robotech was to create an original program that could be sold to a worldwide audience. It was done to expose the animation and the property to a viewership that is not pre-disposed to the original material.

Look, for the sake of perfect accuracy, can you please calculate that down to weeks, days, hours, minutes and seconds.

Nah, I'm a computer scientist with a software engineering bias... give me the answer to the nearest tenth of a second or express it in quartz clock cycles.

Edited January 28, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[VFTF1]

Carl Macek says: First the storyline of Macross has major flaws, primarily the concept of "music" as a weapon to be used against the alien invaders - these flaws have been addressed in the subsequent exploitation of the Macross franchise in Japan - in fact it seems that these new variations on Macross seem to be influenced more by Robotech than by an outgrowth of the Macross plot. That said, the goal of Robotech was to create an original program that could be sold to a worldwide audience. It was done to expose the animation and the property to a viewership that is not pre-disposed to the original material.

Pete

[hulagu]

Carl Macek says: First the storyline of Macross has major flaws, primarily the concept of "music" as a weapon to be used against the alien invaders - these flaws have been addressed in the subsequent exploitation of the Macross franchise in Japan - in fact it seems that these new variations on Macross seem to be influenced more by Robotech than by an outgrowth of the Macross plot.

I love how he deliberately uses the term "exploitations of the Macross franchise" there in lieu of "Macross sequels","series", or "properties" to refer to Macross II, Macross Plus and Macross 7. Might as well go and insert a "dubious" in front of that statement.

Far be it for writers of each new Macross show to avoid repeating the same exact premise ad nauseum and use the theme of music in different ways, no, it surely must be the influence of Robotech.

Oh, right, I forgot. The Japanese can't even score a soundtrack for their cartoon properly, can they? Why, Rick Hunter Hikaru Ichijyo doesn't even have a leifmotif of his own.

Edited January 28, 2010 by hulagu

[VFTF1]

Yeah -there's loads of spin going on there. The Japanese who created Macross are "exploiting" the franchise while desperately trying to copy Robotech, which is the only version that can actually appeal to people around the world who otherwise would not be "predisposed to the original material."

The thing he says about Minmei I can swallow. I don't agree with it - but it's just an opinion. It kind of seems like he just doesn't like Mari Ijma's music and never liked the whole premise. In fact, given that in the 80s it was hoped that Robotech would compete with Transformers and GI Joe, I'm sure they FEARED the music aspect in Macross because it was basically NOT something geared towards your stereotypical "boys" cartoon. It was something for "girls." But to make Robotech competitive on the "boys' cartoon market - they needed to water down the music - make it motivational war music.

But...really...he basicaly also take a big shIIt on ALL anime there - because he basically suggests that without people like him, this crazy wierdo Japanese stuff is going to remain unpalpatable to a GLOBAL - not even a western audience but a GLOBAL audience.

Clearly these guys let themselves be deluded in the 80s and early 90s into thinking that SINCE their stuff achieved a modicum of success - then this MUST have been due to THEIR genius story telling - not to people just being interested in the original.

Like - I remember buying horrible dubs of Transformers DVDs in Poland or watching really bad dubs of General Daimos on TV here --- why? Because I wanted to see TRANSFORMERS and GENERAL DAIMOS... not because I thought the dubs were brillinat in their own right.

Pete

Edited January 28, 2010 by VFTF1