HG and Robotech Debates

[Seto Kaiba]

There are still a lot of things preventing people from learning the difference; the HG veil is still in effect, not everyone is tech savvy enough to know how to use bit-torrent or any file sharing system or video service [...]

True enough... but that isn't what Tak was getting at.

In the current climate it's entirely understandable for some of these people to have never seen the majority of the Macross sequels out there, or that they don't know the difference between those and RT, particularly if they're not exactly tech-savvy. What he's saying is that these people have essentially no excuse for not knowing these Macross sequels exist when information about them can be obtained in fifteen seconds or less from a quick Google search. The objectionable behavior is not their failure to watch the shows, but rather their failure to check their facts before running off at the mouth.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[Robelwell202]

There are still a lot of things preventing people from learning the difference; the HG veil is still in effect, not everyone is tech savvy enough to know how to use bit-torrent or any file sharing system or video service requiring additional plug-ins, people have been strongly advised not to buy pirated or non-region coded shows/movies to help the industry, they haven't seen evidence of these things conveniently in their local electronics/video store, downright manipulation, etc. I've noticed that this is one of those things on the Internet you really have to actively seek out, like finding info on the Robotech novels without helping feed the beast.

Then again, having to watch something inherently foreign but not spoken in a more common language like English or without subtitles is a big turnoff for a lot of people.

I'm offering this as living proof, Einherjar...

(Yeah, story time again)

I only started getting active in forums a little under 2 years ago (That is, if I remember correctly), and before that, I was solidifying a large part of my story together, since, as a long-haul trucker, I had multitudes of time to think about such things.

Well, in the quest to get things as technically correct as I could, I started surfing the RT.com site to gather technical details about my favorite mecha, Destroid Tomahawk. A short time after that, I got involved in the forums on that site. Now, keep in mind, I had not been involved in a forum before. This was brand-new to me.

Point 1: Shortly after starting on RT.com's forums, I became interested in Yamato's 1/60 Destroid Tomahawk toy. Now, the only other version I'd ever found was the ExoSquad/Robotech crossover toys that came out back in the nineties, and those left a lot to be desired.

Well, silly me, I had no real idea about the RT/Macross difficulties, so I posted a question in the RT.com's forums about Yamato's toy, and I got a STERN nasty-gram about it, stating that Non-RT toys and other products were strictly forbidden as topic subjects.

My reaction: ?!? Isn't that a Robotech toy???

Point 2: As illustrated in my first point, I was fairly ignorant of Macross. I had known that the franchise was different from RT, since I'd seen and bought Macross Pluss and Macross 2, but still, I had no real idea how bad things really were.

Enter folks like Seto Kaiba. After a series of E-mails, I became educated, and found out a lot more than what RT was telling me. I was so ignorant, even, that when Seto told me about how there were torrents around, I said "What's a torrent?"

Needless to say, I have found a massive amount of information, and on HG's side, misinformation. Add to that, I can watch RT:TSC, and recognise it for the POS it is.

Now, that's not to say that I'm not an RT fan, but... My appreciatioon has been severely limited (Original 85 episodes, and little else), and even though I have continued to write my RT fanfic, I am now considered a Macross Purist Fanboy. WEll, if the shoe fits...

So, Einherjar, there you go... Living, breathing evidence of your statement.

[Einherjar]

True enough... but that isn't what Tak was getting at.

In the current climate it's entirely understandable for some of these people to have never seen the majority of the Macross sequels out there, or that they don't know the difference between those and RT, particularly if they're not exactly tech-savvy. What he's saying is that these people have essentially no excuse for not knowing these Macross sequels exist when information about them can be obtained in fifteen seconds or less from a quick Google search. The objectionable behavior is not their failure to watch the shows, but rather their failure to check their facts before running off at the mouth.

Oh okay, that's easy then... It's the Internet. What else would you expect from here?

[Gubaba]

I'm offering this as living proof, Einherjar...

(Yeah, story time again)

I only started getting active in forums a little under 2 years ago (That is, if I remember correctly), and before that, I was solidifying a large part of my story together, since, as a long-haul trucker, I had multitudes of time to think about such things.

Well, in the quest to get things as technically correct as I could, I started surfing the RT.com site to gather technical details about my favorite mecha, Destroid Tomahawk. A short time after that, I got involved in the forums on that site. Now, keep in mind, I had not been involved in a forum before. This was brand-new to me.

Point 1: Shortly after starting on RT.com's forums, I became interested in Yamato's 1/60 Destroid Tomahawk toy. Now, the only other version I'd ever found was the ExoSquad/Robotech crossover toys that came out back in the nineties, and those left a lot to be desired.

Well, silly me, I had no real idea about the RT/Macross difficulties, so I posted a question in the RT.com's forums about Yamato's toy, and I got a STERN nasty-gram about it, stating that Non-RT toys and other products were strictly forbidden as topic subjects.

My reaction: ?!? Isn't that a Robotech toy???

Point 2: As illustrated in my first point, I was fairly ignorant of Macross. I had known that the franchise was different from RT, since I'd seen and bought Macross Pluss and Macross 2, but still, I had no real idea how bad things really were.

Enter folks like Seto Kaiba. After a series of E-mails, I became educated, and found out a lot more than what RT was telling me. I was so ignorant, even, that when Seto told me about how there were torrents around, I said "What's a torrent?"

Needless to say, I have found a massive amount of information, and on HG's side, misinformation. Add to that, I can watch RT:TSC, and recognise it for the POS it is.

Now, that's not to say that I'm not an RT fan, but... My appreciatioon has been severely limited (Original 85 episodes, and little else), and even though I have continued to write my RT fanfic, I am now considered a Macross Purist Fanboy. WEll, if the shoe fits...

So, Einherjar, there you go... Living, breathing evidence of your statement.

Y'know...when you put it like that, it makes perfect sense. I'd assume that when anime started gaining more widespread notoriety in the '90s, pretty much anyone who remembered Robotech fondly would at least put two and two together and realize it didn't originate in the US, but I sometimes forget that not everyone became hardcore bootleggers at the age of eleven, with dozens and dozen of VHS tapes crammed with Nth-generation copies of random anime cluttering up their bedroom.

[MacrossCN]

ROBOTECH: PRELUDE TO THE SHADOW CHRONICLES

http://www.dccomics.com/wildstorm/graphic_novels/?gn=14584

[VFTF1]

Why don't you open a Papa John's in Poland?

Make millions of dollars then take said money and devote it to finding a loop hole that allows macross to release worldwide.

Or you could give the money to Gubaba to start his anime company or just give the money to Gubaba.

Starting a pizza place would be a cool idea. But I'd need huge wads of cash. I'm already in massive debt after starting my anime shop Maybe when I turn 40...? But I would make it like a cross between Pappa John's and Hooters. Only with lap dances. A geek's dream: beer, pizza, and hot girls all over the place serving it up...

ah...life's dreams...

But you're not ranting about this site on your podcast, acting like this thread is the only thing in the entire forum.

At least, I don't *think* you are...

To Jazznick's point: it's funny...when Captain Donovan was here, I suggested he play around in the "Movies and TV Series" subforum to get a better feel of the place. He responded that he tried, but having ONLY seen Robotech, and having seen no Macross whatsoever, he said he couldn't follow what ANY of the threads were talking about.

Well - I can kind of understand that kind of laziness. It just goes to prove how different Robotech and Macross are. See - it's actually not true that a fondness or nice memories of Robotech are enough to get people to watch Macross - it's totally believable that since they like Robotech, which is a stupid half assed crappy show - then they won't like Macross, which is sophisticated and amazing.

Just because it's the same animation doesn't matter...

That sort of mind-numbing ignorance is staggering and unbelievable. To claim not to know of the Macross sequels in the internet age is absolute crap. Pre-internet maybe, but even then, as soon as I saw the cover of Macross Plus at the video store for the first time I knew exactly what it was.

Taksraven

Lots of folks don't use the internets or the other tubes you know. Sometimes they mayhaps use the emailings, but the internets in general? Nope.

ROBOTECH: PRELUDE TO THE SHADOW CHRONICLES

http://www.dccomics.com/wildstorm/graphic_novels/?gn=14584

Looks AWESOME! I wonder if we'll see RICK HUNTER in this comic!? He's dreeeeaaaaamy!

Pete

[MacrossCN]

Looks AWESOME! I wonder if we'll see RICK HUNTER in this comic!? He's dreeeeaaaaamy!

Pete

The right man is RICK.

[VF5SS]

Why do all the characters look like they've been stung by bees. They have lumpy faces.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Why do all the characters look like they've been stung by bees. They have lumpy faces.

I guess too much exposure to protoculture will do that to you.

[HappyPenguins]

I guess too much exposure to protoculture will do that to you.

good thing I've cut back then!

[hulagu]

The right man is RICK.

Is he? Shouldn't he be an gray haired old coot like T.R. Edwards on the left by this time? (The guy with the faceplate _is_ Edwards, right?) Isn't the new Rick Hunter appearance the one with the white Junichiro Koizumi-esque styled hair?

Edited January 25, 2010 by hulagu

[Wanzerfan]

If the guy on the left's supposed to be T. R. Edwards, then I can say they really screwed him up (even more so than the WildStorm reboot) I'm more used to his Robotech Art 3/Malibu Graphics version, He's too damned buff in those WildStorm pieces of sh*t.

Here's a pic of how I remember him, although not a very good one.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[Gubaba]

If the guy on the left's supposed to be T. R. Edwards, then I can say they really screwed him up (even more so than the WildStorm reboot) I'm more used to his Robotech Art 3/Malibu Graphics version, He's too damned buff in those WildStorm pieces of sh*t.

Oh yeah, Mr. "Oops, we need a villain for Sentinels, so just put a faceplate on some dude and act like all the characters already know him"? Lame.

Here's a pic of how I remember him, although not a very good one.

*smirk* *snicker* *Bbbbt* BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!

And you like this stuff better than Macross Plus, eh? Weird.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Gubaba

[Einherjar]

ROBOTECH: PRELUDE TO THE SHADOW CHRONICLES

http://www.dccomics.com/wildstorm/graphic_novels/?gn=14584

I'll bite; what's the hook that will make people buy this again? If it's just the original comic books from 3-4 years ago now combined, trying to vindicate Shadow Chronicles again by being more readily available, why bother? You're left with two parts of an uncompleted story with questionable roots from a retcon and a questionable future from a sequel on hiatus. Plus, it's made from some unknown guy trying to imitate Mikimoto and etc. without getting sued.

[Gubaba]

I'll bite; what's the hook that will make people buy this again? If it's just the original comic books from 3-4 years ago now combined, trying to vindicate Shadow Chronicles again by being more readily available, why bother? You're left with two parts of an uncompleted story with questionable roots from a retcon and a questionable future from a sequel on hiatus. Plus, it's made from some unknown guy trying to imitate Mikimoto and etc. without getting sued.

But see, for a short while right before Shadow Chronicles came out, the individual comics were VERY expensive on Ebay...so that justifies coming out with the book long after the prices plummeted...er, I mean...wait a sec.

yeah, why ARE they coming out with it? You can get all five issues now for, like, ten bucks or less these days.

[VFTF1]

I always had a soft spot for Colonol Edwards. Imagine living in a universe where Minmey puts out for EVERYBODY except...YOU.

Hell, I'd turn evil too.

Pete

[taksraven]

I guess too much exposure to protoculture will do that to you.

I thought it made their eyes glow blue??

[taksraven]

Here's a pic of how I remember him, although not a very good one.

Nah, thats a fantastic picture of him. I'm sure that if he opened his mouth more that a second set of jaws would come flying out to smash his victims skull in.....

Taksraven

[Gubaba]

Nah, thats a fantastic picture of him. I'm sure that if he opened his mouth more that a second set of jaws would come flying out to smash his victims skull in.....

Taksraven

I also like the Giant Floating Head of Dr. Squarejaw Flatface looking on with deep concern.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Gubaba

[taksraven]

I also like the Giant Floating Head of Dr. Squarejaw Flatface looking on with deep concern.

Yeah. Who the hell is that supposed to be??

[Gubaba]

Yeah. Who the hell is that supposed to be??

No idea. Kinda looks like Misa's dad, however.

[Ginrai]

You guys sure that isn't supposed to be Jack Baker?

[chrisk]

Artistically speaking, why do I feel like Tommy got through his entire comic career drawing the same Korean looking Robotech characters in stiff/awkward poses?

Mikimoto was a master, great expressive, gesture lines and expressions... this is not right.

I always had a soft spot for Colonol Edwards. Imagine living in a universe where Minmey puts out for EVERYBODY except...YOU.

I think it's implied in the Prelude comics that he kidnapped Minmei and did things to her...

Edited January 25, 2010 by chrisk

[hulagu]

Yeah. Who the hell is that supposed to be??

Dr. Squarejaw is Sentinels era Lang, I think?

Looks AWESOME! I wonder if we'll see RICK HUNTER in this comic!? He's dreeeeaaaaamy!

Admiral Rick Hunter

Edited January 26, 2010 by hulagu

[Einherjar]

You guys sure that isn't supposed to be Jack Baker?

I think it's Edward Lang. I recognize his character design from The Sentinels.

Also, the Alpha on the Prelude graphic novel is also the Alpha being used for the 25th anniversary emblem.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Einherjar

[taksraven]

I think it's Edward Lang. I recognize his character design from The Sentinels.

Also, the Alpha on the Prelude graphic novel is also the Alpha being used for the 25th anniversary emblem.

I thought the characters name was Emile Lang and if it is they got the eyes wrong anyway. Lang was supposed to have those weird white on black eyes....

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

I thought the characters name was Emile Lang and if it is they got the eyes wrong anyway. Lang was supposed to have those weird white on black eyes....

Taksraven

Yeah, it's Emil Lang, he's looks completely different in the Sentinels episodes and more Russian, or whatever nationality they were trying to get for him. It's on youtube.

[Seto Kaiba]

I guess too much exposure to protoculture will do that to you.

Y'know... I'd be a lot kinder to Robotech as a whole if its writers had sat down and figured out exactly what exposure to protoculture does to you. Exactly what happens changes almost on an individual basis, and varies between depictions... sometimes it's harmless ("Lunk" reports that it tastes awful, but has apparently suffered no ill effects from tasting it), on other occasions it's a powerful hallucinogenic substance, sometimes it causes evolution while large amounts cause totally Akira-esque mutation... I could go on.

Is he? Shouldn't he be an gray haired old coot like T.R. Edwards on the left by this time? (The guy with the faceplate _is_ Edwards, right?) Isn't the new Rick Hunter appearance the one with the white Junichiro Koizumi-esque styled hair?

It's really funny how the Rick Hunter on the cover looks NOTHING like the one in the comic itself. On the cover, he looks more like a badly drawn Hikaru Ichijo with a really ugly jacket. In the book itself, he looks like Hideo Kuze from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex 2nd Gig. His hair's black or really dark brown for the first few pages, then Lisa has a miscarriage and there's a jump cut of one year, and when he reappears he's gone completely gray.

But see, for a short while right before Shadow Chronicles came out, the individual comics were VERY expensive on Ebay...so that justifies coming out with the book long after the prices plummeted...er, I mean...wait a sec.

yeah, why ARE they coming out with it? You can get all five issues now for, like, ten bucks or less these days.

Because, like as not, without Prelude the story of Shadow Chronicles makes even less sense... since it's in Prelude where the motivations of the Haydonites are established, among other things. It also sets up the scene with a bunch of really lame Sentinels references (like the return of Rem and Cabell, the existence of the Sentinels Council, and the red turd SDF-3).

I always had a soft spot for Colonol Edwards. Imagine living in a universe where Minmey puts out for EVERYBODY except...YOU.

Nah, in the last volume of the Waltrip bros. Sentinels comics he certainly makes it sound like he's boned Minmei too... he tells Kyle that she's crap in the sack while they're wrestling over a gun, right before he shoots (and kills!) Kyle (yay!) and absconds with Minmei over his gently-steaming corpse.

Artistically speaking, why do I feel like Tommy got through his entire comic career drawing the same Korean looking Robotech characters in stiff/awkward poses?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say "Because he does".

I think it's implied in the Prelude comics that he kidnapped Minmei and did things to her...

It's not implied, it's given as fact... he murders Kyle and kidnaps her, and she spends a year as his hostage before being rescued... they find her floating in a tube and they seem pretty farting shocked by whatever happened to her...

[Einherjar]

Because, like as not, without Prelude the story of Shadow Chronicles makes even less sense... since it's in Prelude where the motivations of the Haydonites are established, among other things. It also sets up the scene with a bunch of really lame Sentinels references (like the return of Rem and Cabell, the existence of the Sentinels Council, and the red turd SDF-3).

They should have animated that part, rather than force people to buy supplemental material just to understand the "current" outing for Robotech.

[Moly_Sigang]

They should have animated that part, rather than force people to buy supplemental material just to understand the "current" outing for Robotech.

Or better yet, remake the Sentinels as a 50+ episode TV series. They already have a lot of materials to pick and choose a part to animate.

[Seto Kaiba]

They should have animated that part, rather than force people to buy supplemental material just to understand the "current" outing for Robotech.

Of course. Even a halfway-competent creative director would have known that establishing your new villain's motivation in some limited edition comic book most of the audience will never lay eyes on, let alone read, rather than in the movie itself where the general audience will be seeing the villain for the first time is a phenomenally stupid idea. It's the sort of pants-on-head retarded plan we'd expect from a rank amateur or someone suffering from drill-induced brain trauma, and only the most inept creative staff could take even remotely seriously.

[chrisk]

It's the sort of pants-on-head retarded plan we'd expect from a rank amateur or someone suffering from drill-induced brain trauma, and only the most inept creative staff could take even remotely seriously.

Seto, honestly now. Why waste precious time and effort when you have a captured audience that doesn't really care about quality or content and you're making millions in the housing market?

It's not implied, it's given as fact... he murders Kyle and kidnaps her, and she spends a year as his hostage before being rescued... they find her floating in a tube and they seem pretty farting shocked by whatever happened to her...

I remember that. Of course, they don't reveal what happens. You sort of find out what happens after reading some fan's annotations of the thing, and Tommy's comments that he doesn't want to disrespect the intentions of the original Japanese creators for the Minmei character. How's that for closure!

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto, honestly now. Why waste precious time and effort when you have a captured audience that doesn't really care about quality or content and you're making millions in the housing market?

With the housing market in the shitter, whether Harmony Gold is still actually turning enough of a profit on their real estate interests to make any potential loss on Robotech insignificant is somewhat dubious... but yes, they have their captive audience, populated primarily with 30yo+ guys who are so starved for new material that they'll snap up anything provided Tommy Yune slaps the name "Robotech" on it first. It's like Apple's core demographic, the militant macfags who don't care WHAT the new Apple product is or how much it costs, so long as they can get their hands on it as soon as possible. In this case, the difference is that Harmony Gold keeps its fans waiting indefinitely and has never produced anything trendy or popular. There is a small and growing trend of fans starting to finally realize they're being strung along though...

(Still no way to tell if PTH is genuine in his sentiments to that effect or not, since the factor that got him railing against HG and MEMO seems to have been MEMO banning him from Robotech.com (again))

I remember that. Of course, they don't reveal what happens. You sort of find out what happens after reading some fan's annotations of the thing, and Tommy's comments that he doesn't want to disrespect the intentions of the original Japanese creators for the Minmei character. How's that for closure!

Closure nothin... it's ridiculous in the extreme considering the franchise has been staying afloat by milking those Mikimoto character designs and Kawamori/Miyatake mechanical designs for ~20 years.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Seto Kaiba

[chrisk]

With the housing market in the shitter, whether Harmony Gold is still actually turning enough of a profit on their real estate interests to make any potential loss on Robotech insignificant is somewhat dubious...

Question: Has the so-called Shadow Chronicles gravy train completely dried up?

It's like Apple's core demographic, the militant macfags who don't care WHAT the new Apple product is or how much it costs, so long as they can get their hands on it as soon as possible. In this case, the difference is that Harmony Gold keeps its fans waiting indefinitely and has never produced anything trendy or popular. There is a small and growing trend of fans starting to finally realize they're being strung along though...

The thing is, I respect Apple. But Harmony Gold? I think this is one of the few entertainment companies that is practically begging to be hated by the fandom. And the funny thing is that despite all that bad will, HG management knows you'll buy their crap whether you like it or not.

Edited January 26, 2010 by chrisk

[Seto Kaiba]

Question: Has the so-called Shadow Chronicles gravy train completely dried up?

Not entirely... if such a thing could even be said to have existed in the first place given the general shortage of Shadow Chronicles merchandise. Apart from the DVD, the only merchandise the movie had was the artbook, the soundtrack, the recalled Shadow Fighter MPC, and some miscellaneous odds and ends. In the last year or so, the only "new" RTSC merch is the reissue of the recalled Maia Sterling MPC.

The thing is, I respect Apple. But Harmony Gold? I think this is one of the few entertainment companies that is practically begging to be hated by the fandom. And the funny thing is that despite all that bad will, HG management knows you'll buy their crap whether you like it or not.

Being an IT guy by trade, I have no respect for any division of Apple except their marketing team, who have gone above and beyond the call of duty by using fraud and deception to sell low-grade consumer trash to the general public and got them to like it. Harmony Gold doesn't have the talent to do more than flail around and look foolish whenever someone asks a question for which they don't have an answer that makes them look good.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Seto Kaiba