HG and Robotech Debates

[Gubaba]

I like when RT fans use the excuse that "Macross is a rip off of Space Battle ship Yamato." Uh are you sure about that? I honestly don't think those people have even seen that series, cause if they did, they wouldn't be making that assinine statement.

Pizza was ranting on about that for a while, so I said he should check out Robotech Art 1, which discusses Macross's origins as a Yamato (among other things) parody. His first reaction was to assume I was talking about a Macross book (because of, y'know, me being a "Macross Purist Nazi" an' all), but then he sent a PM thanking me, saying he wanted to be nice, and how he's now apparently having some kind of fued with Memo. I'm still not sure what to make of it.

Anyway, it kinda weirds me out how a good number of Robotech fans (who were fans back in '85, no less) have apparently never read Robotech Art 1...since if they had, a lot of these kinds of accusations would seem pretty silly.

[Einherjar]

Pizza was ranting on about that for a while, so I said he should check out Robotech Art 1, which discusses Macross's origins as a Yamato (among other things) parody. His first reaction was to assume I was talking about a Macross book (because of, y'know, me being a "Macross Purist Nazi" an' all), but then he sent a PM thanking me, saying he wanted to be nice, and how he's now apparently having some kind of fued with Memo. I'm still not sure what to make of it.

All that drama he caused and now he's losing faith in HG's/Tommy Yune's/MEMO's Robotech? What a waste, especially now that it looks like he started off being uninformed and manipulated by certain people.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Einherjar

[VF5SS]

That Shadow Chronicles picture is so poorly drawn. The way the Legioss's legs are flailing away in the back is really awkward.

Tommy Yune is like the Rob Liefeld of mecha.

[BeyondTheGrave]

That Shadow Chronicles picture is so poorly drawn. The way the Legioss's legs are flailing away in the back is really awkward.

Tommy Yune is like the Rob Liefeld of mecha.

I doubt that. At least Liefeld would try and fix his mistakes.

I'd say he's more so the Jeph Loeb of mecha/ Robotech.

[HappyPenguins]

Pizza was ranting on about that for a while, so I said he should check out Robotech Art 1, which discusses Macross's origins as a Yamato (among other things) parody. His first reaction was to assume I was talking about a Macross book (because of, y'know, me being a "Macross Purist Nazi" an' all), but then he sent a PM thanking me, saying he wanted to be nice, and how he's now apparently having some kind of fued with Memo. I'm still not sure what to make of it.

Anyway, it kinda weirds me out how a good number of Robotech fans (who were fans back in '85, no less) have apparently never read Robotech Art 1...since if they had, a lot of these kinds of accusations would seem pretty silly.

PTH having a fued with Memo?

nothing makes sense anymore...

[HappyPenguins]

That Shadow Chronicles picture is so poorly drawn. The way the Legioss's legs are flailing away in the back is really awkward.

Tommy Yune is like the Rob Liefeld of mecha.

he's also not too good with anatomy either

http://www.robotech.com/gallery/galimage/v...mage.php?id=460

[Wanzerfan]

he's also not too good with anatomy either

http://www.robotech.com/gallery/galimage/v...mage.php?id=460

Trust me, I've definately seen worse.

[BeyondTheGrave]

he's also not too good with anatomy either

http://www.robotech.com/gallery/galimage/v...mage.php?id=460

I'm going to go with he screwed up her helmet.

Trust me, I've definitely seen worse.

http://progressiveboink.com/archive/robliefeld.html

At least liefeld will admit his work isn't the best and he screwed up.

Edited January 24, 2010 by BeyondTheGrave

[HappyPenguins]

I'm going to go with he screwed up her helmet.

Actually the proportions are way off (looks like shes got a spine disease), her head is too big and if you look closely you can tell he uses the selection tool in photoshop to color in his backgrounds because you can see the white outlining because he forgot to blend the characters in with the background.

but yes we've all seen worse, only Tommy's ego is so big he can't see his own mistakes

and last I heard he HATES being criticized.

[Seto Kaiba]

but yes we've all seen worse, only Tommy's ego is so big he can't see his own mistakes

and last I heard he HATES being criticized.

In the interest of fairness, the overall quality of the promotional art he did for the masterpiece collection isn't exactly an accurate representation of what he's capable of. I get the feeling he has a lot of trouble imitating Mikimoto's drawing style, and that unless his work is being marketed as a product in its own right he doesn't bother to give it his best effort. In particular, it seems like he only bothers to turn out the occasional piece of promotional art or the occasional desktop wallpaper when some kind of major event or pressure from above force him to.

[VF5SS]

Trying to be Tenjin and Mikimoto makes him look like a chump.

[taksraven]

All that drama he caused and now he's losing faith in HG's/Tommy Yune's/MEMO's Robotech? What a waste, especially now that it looks like he started off being uninformed and manipulated by certain people.

Yeah, I noticed that one of his posts wasn't towing the Robotech/HG line as well. So what does that mean. Eventually we will have him here lying his head off and claiming how he always preferred Macross to Robotech. (Since this place is Robotech Refugee Center No.1)

Do we embrace people who have been real dickheads to us and Macross in the past??

I mean, sure, I started off on Robotech when I didn't know any better, but as soon as I learnt about the true origins of Robotech I swore off it pretty quickly, I didn't persist in being an idiot. (I am sure that there are those who will say otherwise.)

What if things go really sour and we end up with the likes of MEMO here one day? Do we say "Thats ok, we don't mind that you spread disinformation and insulted most of us, we will turn the other cheek."

So what are the general consensus's and attitudes? What do the mods think?

Taksraven

[VFTF1]

Well technically by Pizza's own admission - he's been here all along. He just goes by a different handle here and apparently either never posts Robotech related stuff or just never posts but lurks instead.

I would welcome him to the fold of Macross fandom and MW forum - you bet. Why not.

Even though I always prefered Pappa John's. Seriously -I can remember it like it was yesterday...Christmas break in mid-Michigan...one of my profs asked me to stay at his house while he was away on vacation. He had a HUGE sci-fi collection that I watched for a week...and I would order Pappa John's every day...all that great great greesy oil....quadruple cheese...loads of Pepperoni...and the Jalepinio peppers...DAMN WAS THAT GOOD!!

In Poland, there's something similar - called Dominium pizza...not as good - but still good enough (and actually their pizzas ARE more like Domino's...who are...bankrupt? Out of business now? Been a while since I was in the US ...so don't remember)...

Pizza Hut...on the other hand...well... DISCLOSURE: I used to work for pizza hut - and as an employer, they were fine. Nothing to complain about. Good company.

But on a personal level - dag...I frickin' HATE their pizzas man! I mean - seriously - the pizza dough just sucks.

So...Pizza the Hut... I don't understand how - beyond the Space Balls reference - you can stand being who you are on Robotech.com

I mean - sure - the Space Balls reference was funny. Ha ha. But there's no way to read that name without also thinking about Pizza Hut's pizzas.

And that thought would be enough to drive any sane man to Macross.

Pete

[azrael]

Trying to be Tenjin and Mikimoto makes him look like a chump.

Well, he has to produce stuff to keep up the license and you can't argue with what the fanbase wants.

[Funkenstein]

Well, he has to produce stuff to keep up the license and you can't argue with what the fanbase wants.

The fanbase wants bootlegs of Mikimoto artwork?

[BeyondTheGrave]

Actually the proportions are way off (looks like shes got a spine disease), her head is too big and if you look closely you can tell he uses the selection tool in photoshop to color in his backgrounds because you can see the white outlining because he forgot to blend the characters in with the background.

but yes we've all seen worse, only Tommy's ego is so big he can't see his own mistakes

and last I heard he HATES being criticized.

Actually her body does look correct. He just has her Sticking her chest and butt out. That or she needs a hip replacement.

Her head stick out the most to me.

It like he started on a miria that had no helmet and hair blowing in the wind Then went:

Oh S*** she's supposed to have a helmet on.

Proceeded to erase said hair and quickly draw a helmet. Then went:

F***! Now her face doesn't look right. Hmmm.... I know I'll draw a bang so that it looks correct; no one will notice.I love how I'm in charge of Robotech.

[Wanzerfan]

Well technically by Pizza's own admission - he's been here all along. He just goes by a different handle here and apparently either never posts Robotech related stuff or just never posts but lurks instead.

I would welcome him to the fold of Macross fandom and MW forum - you bet. Why not.

Even though I always prefered Pappa John's. Seriously -I can remember it like it was yesterday...Christmas break in mid-Michigan...one of my profs asked me to stay at his house while he was away on vacation. He had a HUGE sci-fi collection that I watched for a week...and I would order Pappa John's every day...all that great great greesy oil....quadruple cheese...loads of Pepperoni...and the Jalepinio peppers...DAMN WAS THAT GOOD!!

In Poland, there's something similar - called Dominium pizza...not as good - but still good enough (and actually their pizzas ARE more like Domino's...who are...bankrupt? Out of business now? Been a while since I was in the US ...so don't remember)...

Pizza Hut...on the other hand...well... DISCLOSURE: I used to work for pizza hut - and as an employer, they were fine. Nothing to complain about. Good company.

But on a personal level - dag...I frickin' HATE their pizzas man! I mean - seriously - the pizza dough just sucks.

So...Pizza the Hut... I don't understand how - beyond the Space Balls reference - you can stand being who you are on Robotech.com

I mean - sure - the Space Balls reference was funny. Ha ha. But there's no way to read that name without also thinking about Pizza Hut's pizzas.

And that thought would be enough to drive any sane man to Macross.

Pete

There's still a Domono's franchise on the corner of F.M. 529 and Eldridge Pkwy. here in Houston, TX. I don't know if it's still open or not, though.

We don't order Domono's anymore; we go the Russo's New York Pizzeria route.

Edit: I saw a Domono's Pizza commercial today, so they're still in business.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Wanzerfan

[VFTF1]

I looked at his Mirya pic and my first thought was "I'd do her."

That doesn't make it Picasso - but makes it good art

The problem is that the harnesses are, for lack of a better description...flattening her UPPER breasts and pushing out her lower breasts. And thus the disfigurgement. That and she is very clearly sticking her butt out in a non-natural manner.

I think the problem here is that he tried to hard to make her look erotic and didn't really think the flight suit through very well. I don't really remember the original flight suit from Macross doing that to Miliya's breasts....

But then again - I freely admit that Milya was never, in my view, attractive to begin with. She was a fun character... but totally not my type.

Hmmm...

By those criteria - I guess this Robotech art version is bad because whenever I see Milia from Macross, I certainly don't think "I'd do her." Whereas seeing this one I did.

So clearly there's something wrong...

Ah...now I see it.

It's not just the 'sticking her ass out' thing. This Robotech version is - I think - too short. Millya in Macross was tall and slender. This girl is shorter and more curvaceous...

Umm...

As for Domino's pizza - well.... I never made it to Texas...but if I go - at least I'll know where to drop by to try and hit Dominos

Pete

[Einherjar]

What if things go really sour and we end up with the likes of MEMO here one day? Do we say "Thats ok, we don't mind that you spread disinformation and insulted most of us, we will turn the other cheek."

That's already happened, it's just an unfortunate cycle that repeats itself these days.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Einherjar

[hutch]

Domino's is still open everywhere.

They're running a huge ad campaign right now how they're improving their pizza after negative customer feedback.

[VFTF1]

Wierd. Although my fond memories of Dominos are from the 80s...but...what did people complain about in their pizzas to induce such a radical add campaign?

And yeah - as for Pizza and Memo - I always had the notion that Pizza's biggest problem was just that he was ill informed...but I dunno... whatever...I'm more interested in hearing about what the negative feedback re: Domino's pizza was?

Pete

[VF5SS]

You know for all the self congratulatory talk from Macek about creating an evergreen series and not being "a fan" the guy seems to have some issues with being self-indulgent in his own work. He said that to him putting Southern Cross in the middle of the series made sense thematically and yet for such a savvy businessman he couldn't find any fault with putting the proven weakest series in the middle where it would lose the most viewers? And according to some sources it did lose a lot of people on its second viewing. And all the plot Spackle he tried to apply to Southern Cross just made it worse.

[Robelwell202]

I always had the notion that Pizza's biggest problem was just that he was ill informed...but I dunno... whatever...

Pete

The idea of him being ill-informed isn't the issue. The issue is, rather, that he chose to remain ill-informed and troll anyone who knew more, or knew better. I know that Seto made several overtures to offer information, and initially, they seemed well recieved, but soon after, ol' PTH railed on Seto, HappyPenguiins, myself, and anyone else who actually look for knowledge, as opposed to just gobbling up whatever bilge the company threw out...

As much as I agree with PTH's current line of apparent self-enlightenment, I'm still somewhat dubious about it.

Call me cynical, if you want.

[Einherjar]

You know for all the self congratulatory talk from Macek about creating an evergreen series and not being "a fan" the guy seems to have some issues with being self-indulgent in his own work. He said that to him putting Southern Cross in the middle of the series made sense thematically and yet for such a savvy businessman he couldn't find any fault with putting the proven weakest series in the middle where it would lose the most viewers? And according to some sources it did lose a lot of people on its second viewing. And all the plot Spackle he tried to apply to Southern Cross just made it worse.

I bet he adopted the businessman and visionary persona only when he found out his creation was a big success, at least initially. It could explain the spectacular failures he had with Robotech and other projects later, like his Captain Harlock edit. It almost sounds like the Peter Principle.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Pete talks about Pizza hut and Papa John's

Why don't you open a Papa John's in Poland?

Make millions of dollars then take said money and devote it to finding a loop hole that allows macross to release worldwide.

Or you could give the money to Gubaba to start his anime company or just give the money to Gubaba.

[Seto Kaiba]

Trying to be Tenjin and Mikimoto makes him look like a chump.

Granted... but I doubt he was really given a choice in the matter. Despite their many faults, The Powers That Be in Harmony Gold's senior management aren't completely stupid. Even as early as 1986 they knew full well that Macross was the only part of Robotech its viewers actually gave a toss about, and they tried to act accordingly with subsequent productions... with predictably disastrous results. At least with regard to "Macross Saga" merch, Tommy has no choice by to try to imitate Mikimoto, because if he tried to put his own spin on the art the fans'd crucify him for it.

The fanbase wants bootlegs of Mikimoto artwork?

In a word... you said it.

The issue is, rather, that he chose to remain ill-informed and troll anyone who knew more, or knew better. I know that Seto made several overtures to offer information, and initially, they seemed well recieved, but soon after, ol' PTH railed on Seto, HappyPenguiins, myself, and anyone else who actually look for knowledge, as opposed to just gobbling up whatever bilge the company threw out...

Not entirely accurate... but an adequate summary. Since I'm a firm believer in being precise, let me toss out a somewhat more detailed account of the waxing and waning bullshittery of Pizza the Hutt. It seems he's going in cycles, and he'll likely soon be back to ragging on Macross.

Back when he first registered on RT.com under the handle "Wraith_Knight", our boy PTH had clearly bought Tommy and Carl's line about Robotech being a universally-beloved, industry-redefining instant classic hook, line, and sinker. Almost right away he was bickering with other members when he posted a thread about the need for a new Robotech game for next-generation consoles that stopped just short of accusing Harmony Gold of major negligence. What really got him hacked off was when a few people, myself included, pointed out that Harmony Gold likely didn't see the need for such a thing because of Battlecry's lukewarm sales and Invasion's pathetic showing, and particularly not for the PS3, which was (and still is) a distant third place in the console market. He eventually chilled the hell out after BlackRose talked to him, but that didn't last.

Our boy then, in genuine ignorance, latched onto the idea that Macross fans were being unfair by bagging on Robotech for having only turned out a single mediocre movie in 20+ years of trying. So he came right out and promptly jammed his foot in his mouth by denouncing Macross fans for being unfair and claiming that Macross hadn't done any better... while, at the time, blissfully unaware of the existence of everything made after Flashback 2012 and having never seen any of the shows he knew about. Being the helpful sort, I corrected him and even pointed him towards the fansubs so he could see what he'd been missing out on. For a good month or two he was positively GUSHING about how awesome DYRL was and how much Macross kicked ass, until he get to Macross Frontier and started in with the gay-bashing because he thought Alto was a cross-dresser and found Bobby just plain offensive. Once people started getting on his case for that, he changed tacks again and started saying how he never thought Macross was THAT good and how Robotech was so much better... eventually settling on his long-running line that Macross fans were at the root of all the Robotech fanbase's problems.

Now it seems the pendulum is starting to swing the other away again, and he's come to another unpleasant realization about Robotech that'll push him towards the Macross camp for a while before his nostalgia and crackpot conspiracy theories reemerge and drown his common sense.

[Wanzerfan]

Don't let him see Macross II. He definatly won't like Hibiki's hairdresser friend.

[Jasonc]

Yeah, I noticed that one of his posts wasn't towing the Robotech/HG line as well. So what does that mean. Eventually we will have him here lying his head off and claiming how he always preferred Macross to Robotech. (Since this place is Robotech Refugee Center No.1)

Do we embrace people who have been real dickheads to us and Macross in the past??

I mean, sure, I started off on Robotech when I didn't know any better, but as soon as I learnt about the true origins of Robotech I swore off it pretty quickly, I didn't persist in being an idiot. (I am sure that there are those who will say otherwise.)

What if things go really sour and we end up with the likes of MEMO here one day? Do we say "Thats ok, we don't mind that you spread disinformation and insulted most of us, we will turn the other cheek."

So what are the general consensus's and attitudes? What do the mods think?

Taksraven

I'd have no problems welcoming people into the forums, even if we disagree. I get along with people who like Robotech only, people who are the "Macross purists" and everywhere in between. However, the few things I wouldn't put up with are the misinformation, and unwarranted attacks and false accusations. I wouldn't expect it here, just as much as I can't stand it from elsewhere. So, if people were to leave camps and start coming over here, that's fine... I'd welcome anyone as long as it's kept civil. The problem is, to this day, it hasn't happened yet, so I wouldn't expect it to be rolling hills of green pastures. Also, if they did come over, they'd probably have to bear with the scrutiny for awhile. Those that are here that started off as RT fans probably had to go through that at some point. How much more would it be for a PTH, or Memo, or anyone else who's had a negative history, not only here, but in their own franchise of choice?

I'd also hope that if they were going to congregate over here, that it wouldn't just be a chat only in this thread. While it does get a lot of traffic, it's not all that interesting when it comes to the Macross franchise. This thread represents a speck on part of what MW has been, and is. It's one of those things I find so hilarious about lil'dougbendo's podcast. He makes an ignorant, and ill-informed judgement on this whole site based on one thread. But, I guess that's what happens when you just aren't in the "know", and when you put your whole focus on one tiny peephole. You kinda miss everything else around you.

So, in conclusion, if there ever was gonna be people congregating here, I'd hope they'd actually get to know the site, and not stick to one thread. There's so much more here than just this thread.

[Saraphys]

I kinda have to disagree, Jason...

I mean, sure, there are alot of things here that are interesting; but for me, only a few threads here are actually interesting to me.

But thats just me...

[Gubaba]

I kinda have to disagree, Jason...

I mean, sure, there are alot of things here that are interesting; but for me, only a few threads here are actually interesting to me.

But thats just me...

But you're not ranting about this site on your podcast, acting like this thread is the only thing in the entire forum.

At least, I don't *think* you are...

To Jazznick's point: it's funny...when Captain Donovan was here, I suggested he play around in the "Movies and TV Series" subforum to get a better feel of the place. He responded that he tried, but having ONLY seen Robotech, and having seen no Macross whatsoever, he said he couldn't follow what ANY of the threads were talking about.

[Jasonc]

To Jazznick's point: it's funny...when Captain Donovan was here, I suggested he play around in the "Movies and TV Series" subforum to get a better feel of the place. He responded that he tried, but having ONLY seen Robotech, and having seen no Macross whatsoever, he said he couldn't follow what ANY of the threads were talking about.

Is there really that much of a disconnect with some RT fans??? I'm saying some, not all, but still. If one is going to only sit in this thread because they don't know much about anything else in any thread here, that's one thing. However, as Gubaba pointed out, making arrogant assumptions, pretending to understand what this site and people is about from one thread is stupid. I'm not saying people have to engage in other threads, just more of a challenge that would "hypothetically" be made to people coming in. Look around, see the people who put out artwork, fanwork, toy customs. Catch up on toys coming out, other debates, other shows, movies, series, etc. There's a large amount of info here, and a lot of people willing to provide it.

[Gubaba]

Is there really that much of a disconnect with some RT fans??? I'm saying some, not all, but still. If one is going to only sit in this thread because they don't know much about anything else in any thread here, that's one thing. However, as Gubaba pointed out, making arrogant assumptions, pretending to understand what this site and people is about from one thread is stupid. I'm not saying people have to engage in other threads, just more of a challenge that would "hypothetically" be made to people coming in. Look around, see the people who put out artwork, fanwork, toy customs. Catch up on toys coming out, other debates, other shows, movies, series, etc. There's a large amount of info here, and a lot of people willing to provide it.

Well...Captain Donovan was either an EXTREME newbie, or else he was pretending to be one. If his PMs to me were to be believed, he didn't even know of the existence of Macross Plus or DYRL...and yeah, it's hard to believe that any Robotech fan could be so sheltered, but who knows? Maybe he doesn't get out much.

But I think the problem for the general Robotech fan at MW is simply that it's not a Robotech site. Sure, you can enjoy the pics of toys and models, but what if you want to see a custom-built hovertank? Or you want to know what happened to Rico, Conda, and Bron after Kim, Sammy, and Vanessa died? Or you want to see fanart of Minmei jamming with Yellow Dancer? Or you want to know how long the SDF-1 is ('cause you just don't buy that 1200m. figure)?

You won't find any of that here.

Of course, you WILL find debate about where the SDF-2 is...but I think "lost somewhere near the center of the galaxy" isn't the answer most RT fans are looking for.

Let's face it: most of the "Robotech-only" fans who come to MWe do so because this is the thread where you can get your frustrations out without fear of being banned or having the HG Police come after you. Now, it used to kinda bother me that a few people seemed to view this as a low-rent substitute for RT.com, but most of those people seem to have gone away. And only a handful of them acted trollish.

I think it's the same for everyone, whatever you like You're moved to join a forum, you try it on for size, and if it doesn't fit, you move on. The only thing that surprises me is how many Robotech-only fans seem to LIKE this place. If I only liked Robotech, and had no interest in Macross, I'd find the forum to be confusing and uninteresting, just as Captain Donovan did.

...Or maybe they just find it refreshing to be around people who can spell correctly and use punctuation...

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] making arrogant assumptions, pretending to understand what this site and people is about from one thread is stupid.

Of course it's stupid... but let's not forget these are Robotech fans, many of whom came to this thread spoiling for a fight or trying to troll us because they can't stand the idea that people criticize Robotech and the complete bellends who created and maintain it.

Well...Captain Donovan was either an EXTREME newbie, or else he was pretending to be one. If his PMs to me were to be believed, he didn't even know of the existence of Macross Plus or DYRL...and yeah, it's hard to believe that any Robotech fan could be so sheltered, but who knows? Maybe he doesn't get out much.

Honestly, after all that time wasted at Robotech.com, I know all too well that there are plenty of Robotech fans out there who unquestioningly buy Tommy Yune's line that Macross is no big deal, that it isn't that successful, and that its only real importance is as the first installment of Robotech. Just from my experience, his behavior is typical of the what remains of the loyal Robotech fanbase. Hell, back when he first registered on Robotech.com PTH spent a good deal of time telling Macross fans off for criticizing Robotech's failure to produce a sequel because he wasn't aware of any Macross show newer than DYRL.

[taksraven]

Hell, back when he first registered on Robotech.com PTH spent a good deal of time telling Macross fans off for criticizing Robotech's failure to produce a sequel because he wasn't aware of any Macross show newer than DYRL.

That sort of mind-numbing ignorance is staggering and unbelievable. To claim not to know of the Macross sequels in the internet age is absolute crap. Pre-internet maybe, but even then, as soon as I saw the cover of Macross Plus at the video store for the first time I knew exactly what it was.

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

That sort of mind-numbing ignorance is staggering and unbelievable. To claim not to know of the Macross sequels in the internet age is absolute crap. Pre-internet maybe, but even then, as soon as I saw the cover of Macross Plus at the video store for the first time I knew exactly what it was.

There are still a lot of things preventing people from learning the difference; the HG veil is still in effect, not everyone is tech savvy enough to know how to use bit-torrent or any file sharing system or video service requiring additional plug-ins, people have been strongly advised not to buy pirated or non-region coded shows/movies to help the industry, they haven't seen evidence of these things conveniently in their local electronics/video store, downright manipulation, etc. I've noticed that this is one of those things on the Internet you really have to actively seek out, like finding info on the Robotech novels without helping feed the beast.

Then again, having to watch something inherently foreign but not spoken in a more common language like English or without subtitles is a big turnoff for a lot of people.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Einherjar