HG and Robotech Debates

[Seto Kaiba]

After all, they believe their fanbase consists of children.

And they're right... after a fashion.

So this Rhade guy... he believes he's some sort of authority on the difference between Macross/Robotech, but he thinks the Macross timeline is a mess?

Not just Macross... EVERYTHING.

What exactly is confusing about the Macross timeline? Are the dates & numbers too much for these people?

It's probably just that they're so used to following franchises that produce nothing new or interesting to be able to figure out a franchise that actually produces new content with some regularity... all those sequels and prequels confuse them...

[Saraphys]

I find Jeebers' post more annoying than Rhade's.

After a year (or more) of dealing with Jeebers, i just tune that dumbass out...

His giant superiority-complex and stellar-arrogance-level become just too much that either you fall for his constant flamebaiting of people, or you just acknowledge the fact that he's a useless waste of space, and ignore him. Never, in his time on RT.com, has Jeebers ever actually contributed to any thread he's been in...even the one's he-himself starts...

So this Rhade guy... he believes he's some sort of authority on the difference between Macross/Robotech, but he thinks the Macross timeline is a mess?

What exactly is confusing about the Macross timeline? Are the dates & numbers too much for these people?

Oh wait... never mind... Robotech people w/ their "numbers". the SDF-1 is 0.87 long

Well... just look Rhade up using the search function on this site, and find Seto Kaiba's little posts involving Emails with him... He's nothing but...oh, i dont think i can write that word online!

[Duke Togo]

So this Rhade guy... he believes he's some sort of authority on the difference between Macross/Robotech, but he thinks the Macross timeline is a mess?

It is a mess. Every Macross production brings a new retcon that makes a mess out of what we thought we knew before. It is what it is.

[Einherjar]

Wake me when more important people actually care about Robotech, like Harmony Gold.

Zzz...

[Zinjo]

And like clockwork, everything is back at square one, ready to start the whole process again.

For any users on rt.com checking out this thread; when Kevin Mckeever says something like "People have said the same things you have been saying back then and they were proven wrong," stop all attempts at arguing with him. "Proven wrong," is code for "got banned" indiscriminately from the site. Knowing that, who would want to be proven wrong?

Hmm. maybe that's how I managed to get banned from RT... I must have p1ssed off the powers that be and old Kevy in particular.

Olde Mckeever wasn't too impressed with me when I showed up at an RT panel at my local anime convention and I never missed an opportunity to point out what was "actually" Macross and NOT Robotech. A few uncomfortable legal questions were tossed out there and by the end of the panel I was getting glaring looks from the former movie theater chain manager...

[HappyPenguins]

After a year (or more) of dealing with Jeebers, i just tune that dumbass out...

His giant superiority-complex and stellar-arrogance-level become just too much that either you fall for his constant flamebaiting of people, or you just acknowledge the fact that he's a useless waste of space, and ignore him. Never, in his time on RT.com, has Jeebers ever actually contributed to any thread he's been in...even the one's he-himself starts...

Well... just look Rhade up using the search function on this site, and find Seto Kaiba's little posts involving Emails with him... He's nothing but...oh, i dont think i can write that word online!

Ah jeebers.. a little trip down memory lane...

anyway before I got the ol mighty memo hammer, that guy used to be banned and unbanned so many damn times I've lost count.

He would make posts he knew were against the rules of that preschool level site, and somehow get away with it.

I don't what it is with Robotech, but it attracts the idiots... no don't look at me!

I'm pretty normal and sane I promise!

[Seto Kaiba]

I find Jeebers' post more annoying than Rhade's.

In my opinion, Jeebers is every bit as obnoxious as Rhade is... just for different reasons.

Both Jeebers and Rhade belong to that bizarre subset of Robotech fans who actually know almost nothing about the Robotech universe and continuity, yet hold themselves up as devoted fans and experts on the franchise. Rhade just doesn't know that he doesn't know it all, and runs off at the mouth about things he doesn't understand and can't be arsed to look up. Jeebers, on the other hand, is seemingly incapable of understanding the distinction between canon and fanfiic, and thus brings his ineptly-made D20 Future Robotech game up at every opportunity as though it actually had some bearing on the discussions he interrupts... made all the more obnoxious by the fact that his RPG only vaguely resembles Robotech itself. It's a problem not helped in the slightest by his having seen one (and only one) Macross show and deciding the whole of Macross was completely batshit crazy based on some misconceptions he has about how the military works in the real world.

It is a mess. Every Macross production brings a new retcon that makes a mess out of what we thought we knew before. It is what it is.

Call a spade a spade... Macross's continuity isn't nearly the mess you're making it out to be... it's just a very big universe and its creators have adopted the method of giving us bits here and there rather than trying to tell one huge monolithic story, since that's an easy way to write yourself into a corner like Star Trek and Star Wars did...

Wake me when more important people actually care about Robotech, like Harmony Gold.

Zzz...

Good night Mr. van Winkle, we'll see you in about twenty years...

[Beltane70]

Actually, though, it's Jeebers that thinks that the Macross timeline is a mess. I don't really see how, but it seems that by removing Macross II from the Studio Nue continuity, you create a mess out of the entire Macross franchise. They can't seem to understand the reasons for Macross II not being part of the main Macross timeline.

[Zinjo]

I'm of the opinion that Frank Agrama is waiting / hoping Warner Brothers buys the RT franchise from him outright.

All new RT projects are on hold, with the exception of the movie. You wouldn't want to take on new debt or be in the middle of a new production if you wanted to be bought out!

Despite all the rhetoric on the various sites and on the SC dvd, Frank doesn 't care about RT. It was an unexpected cash cow for a couple of years in the 80s and then made him more money early in the new century. Agrama is all about buying low and selling high, with very little in house investment in between. RT has cost him money. TSC cost him a 1M, and I doubt with the distribution deal with Funimation that it made enough profit to be compelling sequel material. If that were the case, the second animated movie would be in the can by now. Instead, the "creative staff" (I used the term loosely) has been on hiatus for the past two years following WB's option of the RT property. Certainly seems like someone is waiting for something to happen, doesn't it?

The RT movie is largely handcuffed for a narrative without the ability to use the Macross material. The HG staffers are fully aware that a Macross based film is their linchpin for the franchise and BW has effectively shut down that possibility. HG knows that their fans want to see a Macross film. I have to agree with other posters, that to publicly admit HG can't use the Macross IP in new productions would effectively kill the franchise fandom or effective reduce its number.

Then there's the other risk of admission. Without a strong fanbase, the RT property no longer has any value and thus Agrama can't hope to unload or sell it for a profit. If Agrama has sold / given shares to his top brass, then they stand to profit from any sale as well. So keeping the fans loyal by any means necessary would be required by all involved.

[HappyPenguins]

But isn't that exactly the kind of fanbase HG/RT prefer?

After all, they believe their fanbase consists of children.

Nah, it's just the adults have the mentality of children

When you get right down to it, there generally isn't much in the way of difference between being a fan of Robotech and just being ignorant. Some of the blame for their ignorance must fall on the heads of Harmony Gold's creative team, who have put a lot of effort into keeping fans ignorant of Macross, but we can't excuse their ignorance outright, as much of the basic information is still readily available online.

Even among Robotech fans, whose ignorance and belligerent nature is common knowledge in mecha anime circles, Rhade is a somewhat exceptional case. Like many of the most belligerent and devoted Robotech fans, he seems to be completely out of touch with the franchise as a whole... and particularly the new material created by Tommy Yune as part of the continuity reboot. Admittedly, his tastes run towards the strange even for a Robotech fan, since he's an avid Masters Saga fan and thinks General Leonard was a great leader despite every single Robotech adaptation or continuation that featured him depicted him as an arrogant, xenophobic, team-killing bastard, and Tommy's recent work depicts him as also being a traitor to the United Earth Government and secret agent of the Anti-Unification League. He's also in with that whole pro-HG pro-Masters Saga fandom gang that harasses anyone who mob up on anyone who points out that Leonard being a xenophobic, team-killing, traitorous douche isn't opinion... it's canon. He's always thought he's smarter than everyone else, and tried to pull a couple fast ones on the other fans... usually accompanied by tall tales which get progressively more absurd the more he's confronted. It doesn't surprise me that once again he's spouting off about Macross without knowing what he's talking about.

Rhade also didn't know Leonard was in the Alien 3 comic

Edited March 22, 2010 by HappyPenguins

[ps99042]

All new RT projects are on hold, with the exception of the movie. You wouldn't want to take on new debt or be in the middle of a new production if you wanted to be bought out!

I think this is true too just because it makes no sense to not release Shadow Rising until they can "coordinate" the LAM release. Of course, the delay could also be to the fact that Tommy couldn't come up with a compelling story for Shadow Rising which is why they brought back Carl Macek. Still, selling the franchise seems like the financially smarter thing for Agrama to do. Afterall, why make pocket change off the franchise on a yearly basis if you can make one huge lump sum instead and be done with it?

[chrisk]

The RT movie is largely handcuffed for a narrative without the ability to use the Macross material. The HG staffers are fully aware that a Macross based film is their linchpin for the franchise and BW has effectively shut down that possibility. HG knows that their fans want to see a Macross film. I have to agree with other posters, that to publicly admit HG can't use the Macross IP in new productions would effectively kill the franchise fandom or effective reduce its number.

Isn't it funny how history sort of repeated itself, albeit with different results? When Robotech: Shadow Force was being developed, HG actually planned it as a series (don't ask me where I heard that)... very similar to what Carl Macek attempted in the 80's with Robotech: Sentinels. And like Sentinels' doomed development, HG couldn't get the budget off the ground and Shadow Force series was scrapped... and quickly combined made into the direct-to-dvd movie Shadow Chronicles. Luckily for Tommy though, they more or less had a "complete" story (no tacked on Hikaru/Misa wedding scene and Milia with 90's punk 'do), and with Funimation's backing they easily marketed this drivel as the continuation of the greatest story in the world, and the rest is history.

At this point, all this talk of a sequel to Shadow Chronicles sounds like a really bad business decision. My concern now is this: would Tommy, and especially McKeever go so far to develop this movie just to say to the naysayers "Nyah nyah! We made Shadow Rising! Bleaaaah!!!"?

Edited March 22, 2010 by chrisk

[HappyPenguins]

Isn't it funny how history sort of repeated itself, albeit with different results? When Robotech: Shadow Force was being developed, HG actually planned it as a series (don't ask me where I heard that)... very similar to what Carl Macek attempted in the 80's with Robotech: Sentinels. And like Sentinels' doomed development, HG couldn't get the budget off the ground and Shadow Force series was scrapped... and quickly combined made into the direct-to-dvd movie Shadow Chronicles. Luckily for Tommy though, they more or less had a "complete" story (no tacked on Hikaru/Misa wedding scene and Milia with 90's punk 'do), and with Funimation's backing they easily marketed this drivel as the continuation of the greatest story in the world, and the rest is history.

At this point, all this talk of a sequel to Shadow Chronicles sounds like a really bad business decision. My concern now is this: would Tommy, and especially McKeever go so far to develop this movie just to say to the naysayers "Nyah nyah! We made Shadow Rising! Bleaaaah!!!"?

Yeah it was planned as a series, after the movies of course (not sure how many they were planning on doing)

and I don't know how soon they were expecting to have Shadow Rising complete and released, my guess is by this time? ah hell who cares. After reading that leaked draft I hope that piece of poo never gets made. The fandom is already a big enough laughingstock as it is, don't need to make it any worse amirite?

[Gubaba]

Back on the legal front, there's one thing I've been wondering about for a couple of days now...correct me if I'm wrong here:

Studio Nue created Macross at the behest of the (what was the name..."Uisu"? Something like that) Corporation.

Uisu (or whatever they were called) folds, and Big West steps in to finance the series.

Big West doesn't have enough money to do so, and calls in Tatsunoko.

Tatsunoko now has part ownership of Macross.

They're also listed for DYRL; but after that, Big West and Tatsunoko part ways.

Does anyone know what the deal is there? Was their agreement only for the series and the movie? If they'd had a successful partship (and, Star Pro episodes aside, no one can argue that it WASN'T successful), why didn't they continue working together? And why would Tatsunoko give up that partnership?

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually, though, it's Jeebers that thinks that the Macross timeline is a mess. I don't really see how, but it seems that by removing Macross II from the Studio Nue continuity, you create a mess out of the entire Macross franchise. They can't seem to understand the reasons for Macross II not being part of the main Macross timeline.

Which is really obnoxious, because I've explained it to most of them at least once...

I think this is true too just because it makes no sense to not release Shadow Rising until they can "coordinate" the LAM release. Of course, the delay could also be to the fact that Tommy couldn't come up with a compelling story for Shadow Rising which is why they brought back Carl Macek.

Um... not quite... we know Harmony Gold's rationale for delaying Robotech: Shadow Rising indefinitely, and it's all budget-related. Basically, as Tommy Yune explained it, Harmony Gold's management decided that they were better off waiting for Warner's live-action Robotech movie to raise the Robotech franchise's standing so their investors would be willing to give them more favorable terms, thus giving them a bigger budget to ensure that the continuation of Shadow Chronicles was a higher-quality product than the first installment. Take that for what you will... but at least some of it makes sense.

Insofar as Carl Macek's return to the franchise in an advisory capacity, I'll wager that was intended to convince the fans that Harmony Gold's creative team hasn't just been sitting around picking their noses all this time, and make them think that big things are happening when in truth they're just sitting around waiting for Warner to fix their poo.

Isn't it funny how history sort of repeated itself, albeit with different results? When Robotech: Shadow Force was being developed, HG actually planned it as a series (don't ask me where I heard that)... very similar to what Carl Macek attempted in the 80's with Robotech: Sentinels.

Now, I've got no idea where you got it into your head that Shadow Chronicles was supposed to be a series... the Robotech 2004 thing's format was never announced, and by the time they'd gotten around to announcing details (right around the time it became Robotech: Shadow Force) it was announced that it was going to be a series of movies. McKeever's always said that they won't develop a series unless they can get an episode commitment from a network, so it's highly unlikely that they ever intended this aborted "Shadow Saga" to be a TV series. If they did, and managed to get an episode commitment, we'd probably have been celebrating Robotech's cancellation sometime around February 2007 instead of mocking a laughably bad movie.

Harmony Gold has at least implied that the limited budget of Shadow Chronicles was because they weren't sure if the movie would be a success, and didn't want to risk scads of money from their investors on it, so they did the whole thing on a shoestring budget and called it a day.

[Seto Kaiba]

Studio Nue created Macross at the behest of the (what was the name..."Uisu"? Something like that) Corporation.

Yes, Studio Nue started working on the show that eventually became Macross under the sponsorship of Wiz (Uizu) Corp., who wanted a ~48 episode series done as a comedy spoof of the highly successful Gundam series.

Uisu (or whatever they were called) folds, and Big West steps in to finance the series.

Sort of right... Wiz (Uizu) went bankrupt/out of business and Studio Nue bought back the rights to the series and started shopping around for a new sponsor, eventually teaming up with Big West, who cut the run of the show down to 27 or so episodes, but agreed to let them do it as a serious story.

Big West doesn't have enough money to do so, and calls in Tatsunoko.

Sort of true again... once Studio Nue had done pretty much all of the creative legwork and refined the series into its final shape and started to produce the animation, Big West discovered that it was going to run more than they'd budgeted for the series, and brought in Tatsunoko to help fund the animation process. They also found they didn't have the manpower to animation the whole thing solo, so Big West brought in Artland, while Tatsunoko brought in AnimeFriend and StarPro.

Tatsunoko now has part ownership of Macross.

An incredible oversimplification... basically, Tatsunoko only holds a copyright on the animation of the series itself, and has the distribution and merchandising rights to the show outside of Japan which they were given as compensation for their involvement. Tatsunoko only funded the animation process, and the creative work was done long before they got involved, so Tatsunoko has no claim on the intellectual property of the series, but does have ownership of the animation they funded the production of... (basically, they own the footage itself, but not the contents).

They're also listed for DYRL; but after that, Big West and Tatsunoko part ways.

Tatsunoko's contracts for DYRL were presumably drawn up much more strictly, because the confusion over who owned what never seems to have touched that title. Also, Tatsunoko is listed in the credits for Macross: Flashback 2012, but the degree of their involvement is unknown. Macross II: Lovers Again was the first title to exclude Tatsunoko from the production process.

Does anyone know what the deal is there? Was their agreement only for the series and the movie? If they'd had a successful partship (and, Star Pro episodes aside, no one can argue that it WASN'T successful), why didn't they continue working together? And why would Tatsunoko give up that partnership?

No idea... I don't think they've ever really offered any insight into it. It might have something to do with the creators of Macross II opting to use AIC and Onrio, and Macross Plus originally having been developed as something not related to Macross, but we'll probably never know for sure.

[Gubaba]

No idea... I don't think they've ever really offered any insight into it. It might have something to do with the creators of Macross II opting to use AIC and Onrio, and Macross Plus originally having been developed as something not related to Macross, but we'll probably never know for sure.

I wonder if the good people on the forum at macross.co.jp would have any insight...? Or am I just barking up the wrong tree?

[Seto Kaiba]

I wonder if the good people on the forum at macross.co.jp would have any insight...? Or am I just barking up the wrong tree?

Really, I don't think we'll ever know exactly why Big West stopped working with Tatsunoko. It may simply be that after Macross: Flashback 2012 they never thought they'd be making another Macross show again (Kawamori was saying that, for sure) and decided to part ways. Tatsunoko may simply have been committed to another project. At the general time Big West was working on Macross II, Tatsunoko was involved in Space Knight Tekkaman Blade and Irresponsible Captain Tylor. If it was an acrimonious parting, odds are nobody will know the details of it, since they tend to keep that sort of thing quiet.

[RedWolf]

Big West doesn't have enough money to do so, and calls in Tatsunoko.

Episodes 28 to 36 basically. Heck episode 27 can be concieved as a climax finale but Big West saw how popular it is and increased the episodes again.

Wait you already know this.

[Seto Kaiba]

Episodes 28 to 36 basically. Heck episode 27 can be concieved as a climax finale but Big West saw how popular it is and increased the episodes again.

Wait you already know this.

Episode 27 was originally going to be the finale under Big West's original plan, but after the first three episodes aired and became a runaway hit, they extended the show's run (only once) to 36 episodes.

[Bri]

Back on the legal front, there's one thing I've been wondering about for a couple of days now...correct me if I'm wrong here:

Studio Nue created Macross at the behest of the (what was the name..."Uisu"? Something like that) Corporation.

Uisu (or whatever they were called) folds, and Big West steps in to finance the series.

Big West doesn't have enough money to do so, and calls in Tatsunoko.

Tatsunoko now has part ownership of Macross.

They're also listed for DYRL; but after that, Big West and Tatsunoko part ways.

Does anyone know what the deal is there? Was their agreement only for the series and the movie? If they'd had a successful partship (and, Star Pro episodes aside, no one can argue that it WASN'T successful), why didn't they continue working together? And why would Tatsunoko give up that partnership?

The last co-operation I can find between BW and Tatsunoko is the Irresponsible Captain Tylor from 1992-1993 (source ANN).

I don't think you should read to much in to this partnership as BW is a small company. Advertising agencies like Big West are often part of anime production comitees to run the marketing effort but to my knowledge they are rarely the initiator/senior partner (with the exception of Dentsu which is a very large firm). That role is often for broadcasters, publishers or (multi)media and entertainment groups who can supply the captital needed.

I don't know anything about the Uisu Corporation but if they folded during preproduction then it's not unlikely to assume that BW either saw an opportunity to step in or had commited to deeply already to bail out. Either way BW role as anime sponsor seems mostly incidental. Speculating further, this would fit with their very limited involvement with anime outside of the Super Dimension block and a few TV shows/OVA. Marketing (let alone sponsoring) anime is unlikely to be their core business.

As a side note, I haven't been able to acces the BW website (bigwest-ad.co.jp) lately nor can I find any link on the macross.co.jp website.

All remaining info I have is that it's owned by Kaya Onishi and

Big West CO.,LTD.

6-12-3 Sotokanda

Bigwest 3rd 5F

Chiyoda-ku

Tokyo

Edited March 22, 2010 by Bri

[azrael]

I'm of the opinion that Frank Agrama is waiting / hoping Warner Brothers buys the RT franchise from him outright.

It may happen. Let's face it HG, doesn't have much of a creative unit. Most of their work focuses on 3rd party licensing (i.e., buying up international distribution rights and then selling them off elsewhere).

Really, I don't think we'll ever know exactly why Big West stopped working with Tatsunoko. It may simply be that after Macross: Flashback 2012 they never thought they'd be making another Macross show again (Kawamori was saying that, for sure) and decided to part ways. Tatsunoko may simply have been committed to another project. At the general time Big West was working on Macross II, Tatsunoko was involved in Space Knight Tekkaman Blade and Irresponsible Captain Tylor. If it was an acrimonious parting, odds are nobody will know the details of it, since they tend to keep that sort of thing quiet.

That's probably the case. BW never came back until Macross II in 1991/92. Kawamori didn't come back till a year later and he wasn't even planning to do Plus as a Macross series. And if Tatsunoko couldn't commit to any Macross for whatever reasons, I'm sure BW asked around for who else was available (i.e. the various animation studios and Bandai). It was fairly quiet until 2003 when the whole mess started.

It's not the first time a franchise goes dark because the people behind it move on to other things.

[Gubaba]

That's probably the case. BW never came back until Macross II in 1991/92. Kawamori didn't come back till a year later and he wasn't even planning to do Plus as a Macross series. And if Tatsunoko couldn't commit to any Macross for whatever reasons, I'm sure BW asked around for who else was available (i.e. the various animation studios and Bandai). It was fairly quiet until 2003 when the whole mess started.

As I've said before, that's what I hate about all of this...there is so much that EVERYBODY is in the dark about that getting a clear picture of the situation involves far too much speculation.

[Bri]

This kind of information just can't be found on the net. It would require talking to an industry insider who worked during that period. If we ever want to get an answer to all the questions in this thread we'd need to send a macross world reporter to the press and industry day on the Tokyo international anime fair

[Seto Kaiba]

As I've said before, that's what I hate about all of this...there is so much that EVERYBODY is in the dark about that getting a clear picture of the situation involves far too much speculation.

Well, like I said... if it was an acrimonious parting they probably would've kept it quiet as a courtesy thing, and if it wasn't and they'd just had other things to do at the time there likely was never a reason for their parting of ways. Speculation is probably all we'll ever have on this note, since unless something goes seriously pear-shaped with a production, they don't usually talk about this sort of thing.

[Zinjo]

Um... not quite... we know Harmony Gold's rationale for delaying Robotech: Shadow Rising indefinitely, and it's all budget-related. Basically, as Tommy Yune explained it, Harmony Gold's management decided that they were better off waiting for Warner's live-action Robotech movie to raise the Robotech franchise's standing so their investors would be willing to give them more favorable terms, thus giving them a bigger budget to ensure that the continuation of Shadow Chronicles was a higher-quality product than the first installment. Take that for what you will... but at least some of it makes sense.

What I gleaned from the convention panel discussion videos posted on RTX I honestly don't think they had a story to begin with. Macek's comments lead me to believe that nothing was in the works in so far as animation was concerned. Yune waffled between suggesting a new anime may be a continuation of the SC or a tie in with the LAM. However as time goes on the film appears to have begun a slow sink into "development hell"... As I've already said, WB must be aware that they're best ROI is with a Macross film and they can't do that with HG dangling from their legs...

Insofar as Carl Macek's return to the franchise in an advisory capacity, I'll wager that was intended to convince the fans that Harmony Gold's creative team hasn't just been sitting around picking their noses all this time, and make them think that big things are happening when in truth they're just sitting around waiting for Warner to fix their poo.

Yep. In the aforementioned video clips, Macek made no comments regarding collaborating on any new RT productions. Instead he seemed rather frustrated with the current state of the franchise creatively. He's more a figurehead and in charge of producing some sort of content for the RT 25th anniversary.

Now, I've got no idea where you got it into your head that Shadow Chronicles was supposed to be a series... the Robotech 2004 thing's format was never announced, and by the time they'd gotten around to announcing details (right around the time it became Robotech: Shadow Force) it was announced that it was going to be a series of movies. McKeever's always said that they won't develop a series unless they can get an episode commitment from a network, so it's highly unlikely that they ever intended this aborted "Shadow Saga" to be a TV series. If they did, and managed to get an episode commitment, we'd probably have been celebrating Robotech's cancellation sometime around February 2007 instead of mocking a laughably bad movie.

Mckeever has been responding to questions about a new RT series by saying that SC was initially envisioned as a new series, but they required network backing and "that would compromise HG's creative control". Considering no trade publications ever mentioned any negotiations between HG and any network, I'd take that comment with a large brick of salt... So the source of the series notion Seto, is Kevin Mckeever himself during the RT convention tour a few years back.

[TheLoneWolf]

They're also listed for DYRL; but after that, Big West and Tatsunoko part ways.

Does anyone know what the deal is there? Was their agreement only for the series and the movie? If they'd had a successful partship (and, Star Pro episodes aside, no one can argue that it WASN'T successful), why didn't they continue working together? And why would Tatsunoko give up that partnership?

That's a good question. Personally, I don't think a business opportunity ever presented itself to the two. From my understanding, Tatsunoko was well known for television anime, but they didn't have much experience with OAV's. That would explain why Tatsunoko didn't work on Flashback 2012 and Macross II. As for Macross Plus, Kawamori said that he was looking for an elite studio to handle the animation, which was why Big West went with Triangle Staff. And for Macross 7, Kawamori said that there were only a few studios in Japan at that time that could handle such a huge workload under tight deadlines, hence their decision to go with Ashi Productions.

By the time Macross Zero began production, Harmony Gold and Tatsunoko had already blocked the US releases of Macross VFX-2 and the Macross Plus toys, so I don't think Big West was looking favorably upon Tatsunoko. Then came the Japanese lawsuits, officially eliminating the chance for any future projects between Tatsunoko and Big West.

Sort of true again... once Studio Nue had done pretty much all of the creative legwork and refined the series into its final shape and started to produce the animation, Big West discovered that it was going to run more than they'd budgeted for the series, and brought in Tatsunoko to help fund the animation process. They also found they didn't have the manpower to animation the whole thing solo, so Big West brought in Artland, while Tatsunoko brought in AnimeFriend and StarPro.

Actually, Big West brought Tatsunoko aboard because Artland didn't have enough resources to meet SDF Macross' deadlines. The budget problem didn't manifest itself until a couple of months later.

Edited March 23, 2010 by TheLoneWolf

[taksraven]

This kind of information just can't be found on the net. It would require talking to an industry insider who worked during that period. If we ever want to get an answer to all the questions in this thread we'd need to send a macross world reporter to the press and industry day on the Tokyo international anime fair

Good point. I'm sure that there would be the potential for a book that looked properly at the anime industry with help from the inside. Couldn't do one just focussing on Macross, it would need broader appeal. As with any entertainment industry insider stuff, it would have to be interesting.

Unless such a text already exists??

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

Good point. I'm sure that there would be the potential for a book that looked properly at the anime industry with help from the inside. Couldn't do one just focussing on Macross, it would need broader appeal. As with any entertainment industry insider stuff, it would have to be interesting.

Unless such a text already exists??

Carl Macek can always do an autobiography justifying his work in the industry.

I thought various books about the history of anime, or at least about the distribution of anime in the U.S. and abroad, had been released where Carl Macek and Robotech were looked at in a positive light. A.k.a., a necessity to get people interested in the medium at the time. There were a couple advertised in the Viz Video catalogs I used to get in the mail. I assume back in the day criticizing him regardless of his methods was taboo for the industry.

I think I also remember a video documentary that showed Carl puzzled why he gets all so much flak about making Robotech, which included Tony Oliver for some reason.

[Seto Kaiba]

What I gleaned from the convention panel discussion videos posted on RTX I honestly don't think they had a story to begin with. Macek's comments lead me to believe that nothing was in the works in so far as animation was concerned.

As far as the whole "continuing Shadow Chronicles thing goes, they did at least have that dreadful draft which was floating around the internet. McKeever's loud protests that "on hiatus" doesn't mean they're not working on it aside, the remarks made by Richard Epcar at various conventions are most telling. He was very open about the fact that when he was contracted to lend his voice talents to a trilogy of new Robotech, of which Shadow Chronicles was to be the first installment. He also went on record to say that after he was informed that the project was on hold with a "don't call us, we'll call you" with regard to recording his lines, he didn't hear from them again. It definitely looks like nothing will ever get done on Shadow Rising, since Tommy is waiting for Warner to unfuck the franchise's reputation, and Warner is twiddling its thumbs waiting for the writers to produce something coherent as far as a draft.

Yune waffled between suggesting a new anime may be a continuation of the SC or a tie in with the LAM. However as time goes on the film appears to have begun a slow sink into "development hell"... As I've already said, WB must be aware that they're best ROI is with a Macross film and they can't do that with HG dangling from their legs...

Unsurprising to say the least... no doubt Harmony Gold intends to play it safe with the live action movie. If it's a hit, they won't bother faffing about with Shadow Rising, and will do a new animated series based on it (ala Transformers Animated) while the property is hot. If it flops or gets canceled, they'll fall back on squeezing the die-hard fanbase's blue balls for more cash from the relative safety of their Shadow Rising safety net. Warner would have to be blind not to know that Macross is their best bet for a successful Robotech movie, yet they're going ahead with the idea of a reimagining to sidestep the litigious nightmare the original represents... and thus the end result will probably end up bearing no resemblance to the classic anime to which Harmony Gold has been desperately clinging these past twenty-five odd years.

Mckeever has been responding to questions about a new RT series by saying that SC was initially envisioned as a new series, but they required network backing and "that would compromise HG's creative control". Considering no trade publications ever mentioned any negotiations between HG and any network, I'd take that comment with a large brick of salt... So the source of the series notion Seto, is Kevin Mckeever himself during the RT convention tour a few years back.

Oh, so Kevin McKeever's falling back on his usual trend of revisionist history and bullshit... charming.

Either way, it comes right back to his long-time stance of "we'll do a new series if and only if we can get a network to give us an episode commitment". It sounds like he's trying to engage in some Carl Macek-esque buck-passing, to lay most of the blame for having no new properties out there on the doorstep of the big television networks, for whom the Robotech franchise is such a pathetic small-time outfit that it's barely worth their notice.

Incidentally, it also appears that SPACE has taken Robotech out of the lineup entirely... it's not listed anywhere on their broadcast schedule, and the series page has no airdate listed under "next episode". I guess it was inevitable, since the series was put in a timeslot (Saturday @ 7:00am) that made it abundantly clear that the network probably thought it was a real channel-changer campfest and almost guaranteed nobody would watch.

[Maxtype]

I've been reading these threads with interest (and sometimes tears of laughter),and thought y'all might be interested in my perspective.

I'm a Macross fan that was introduced to both Macross and anime-in-general by Robotech. Robotech was on in Denver on a channel I couldn't watch because I lived so far out in the country our antenna was blocked by nap-of-the-Earth. (Gawd,that was a long time ago!) In the Summer of '86 though, a overnight in Denver introduced my brother and I to Robotech by way of Bye-Bye Mars. We were blown away! This was nothing like Thundercats or GI Joe, and soon we bought a few action figures and lusted after the un-affordable Macross model kits we saw advertised in magazines,which also was our introduction to the Japanese origin of Robotech. Taking the best option for poor country boys, we collected the McKinney novels. I loved the first 6,suffered through "Masters", and enjoyed "New Generation". I grew older,started to afford the models I wanted,and discovered other anime,preferably subtitled. Mecha remained a favorite,especially the "real" Macross stuff I found.

But I never forgot Robotech. She was the girl what brung me to the dance. Even after I interned at a friend's anime import shop at the turn of the century,learning about HG's attitudes and the real reason it was hard to get Macross stuff, my affection for the old girl remained. I was excited a couple(?) years ago when Shadow Chronicles was announced. It couldn't replace Macross and Gundam, but it would be great to see the rest of the story!

OMG. My problem with SC isn't that it's so bad, it's that it's so.........nothing! 20 years of waiting,for this? Now, all I have left is that lingering affection for Robotech as my anime intro.

But the series just seems irrelevant otherwise. I think HG's business practices are disgusting, but I wish Robotech fans no ill. I'm glad people are still passionate about it. There is even a tiny part of me that hopes there will be a kickass LAM.

The rest of me is busy working on Hasegawa Variable Fighter kits.

[Moly_Sigang]

A question, so when did Kawamori started working for Satellite?

Also, it seems that the whole production of both Shadow Rising and RLAM are stuck in a stable loop. HG can't/won't continue with SR because they're waiting for the RLAM. While the RLAM itself can't move forward because HG frakked themselves for messing up their Macross license.

[Seto Kaiba]

I've been reading these threads with interest (and sometimes tears of laughter),and thought y'all might be interested in my perspective.

Always good... by all means, share your insights with us.

I'm a Macross fan that was introduced to both Macross and anime-in-general by Robotech.

Unsurprisingly, a fairly common occurrence... rather a lot of western Macross fans initially discovered anime and Macross through Robotech, though it's becoming a less and less common phenomenon among the younger anime enthusiasts who were introduced to their hobby by newer shows, and sidestepped the Robotech phase by seeking out the readily-available fansubs of all the shows Harmony Gold's been blocking.

But I never forgot Robotech. She was the girl what brung me to the dance. Even after I interned at a friend's anime import shop at the turn of the century,learning about HG's attitudes and the real reason it was hard to get Macross stuff, my affection for the old girl remained. I was excited a couple(?) years ago when Shadow Chronicles was announced. It couldn't replace Macross and Gundam, but it would be great to see the rest of the story!

Cue the disillusioned "WTF" directed at Shadow Chronicles in 3... 2... 1...

OMG. My problem with SC isn't that it's so bad, it's that it's so.........nothing! 20 years of waiting,for this? Now, all I have left is that lingering affection for Robotech as my anime intro.

Aaaaaaaaaand... there we have it.

Joking aside, this is an all-too-common phenomenon among what remains of the Robotech fanbase. Now that the Harmony Gold "creative team" has made it appallingly obvious that they will never produce anything of quality, fans of Robotech find themselves in a difficult position. The most rational fans simply accept that Robotech was just doomed to fail, and move on to other shows that actually have potential. They might retain a lingering affection for the show that introduced them to anime, or they might just walk off shaking their heads and wondering what the hell they were thinking. The more devoted Robotech fans, who've stuck with the franchise through two and a half decades worth of disappointment, will often work themselves up into a frenzy of denial over the current state of affairs. They'll spend hours or days trying to justify how Shadow Chronicles really isn't as bad as everyone says it is, and all the while it's painfully obvious that they don't actually believe the things they're saying and are just trying to retroactively justify 20+ years of wasted time to themselves. The most devoted Robotech fans, who are generally thick enough to actually believe Harmony Gold's hype, have been clinging to the franchise for so long that they've lost all contact with reality and actually believe that Robotech is a strong property and that Shadow Chronicles is a misunderstood gem. Oddly enough, this most devoted group of fans is also usually the group that knows the least about Robotech, frequently tripping up on simple stuff like what character belongs to what saga and the fact that not every minor one-shot character has a huge, elaborate backstory.

This last group is Robotech's core constituency... the strange, mutant creatures whose completely alien concepts of "fun" and "entertainment" leave you wondering if they unwind by building databases in Microsoft Access. More often than not, they give their unwilling audience cause to wonder whether they're masochists, stupid, or both.

In practice, nostalgia is about the only merit Robotech has ever had. Even as early as 1986, Harmony Gold was already gleefully proving that they hadn't a clue how to write original material of their own. Eventually, the nostalgia of the people will run out, and Robotech will finally die... albeit a far less dignified death than the one it should have had back in 1987.

[DrStrangelove]

Meh....... since they banned Seto and his friends RT.com become pretty much devoid of anyone capable of having an intelligent conversation or rational debate. Thus I only rarely post there anymore

Edited March 23, 2010 by DrStrangelove

[Gubaba]

Meh....... since they banned Seto and his friends RT.com become pretty much devoid of anyone capable of having an intelligent conversation or rational debate. Thus I only rarely post there anymore