Military in Macross Frontier...

[terry the lone wolf]

Will Big West release a detailed book of information about the military of U.N. Spacy & S.M.S?

[Tochiro]

Will Big West release a detailed book of information about the military of U.N. Spacy & S.M.S?

I can't see why they would since the main appeal of the show is the characters, mecha and music - all of which have been covered pretty extensively in past publications (books, mooks and magazines).

[terry the lone wolf]

A friend of mine (whom I introduced Mac F too) wants to create a RPG system based on the military. I told him to try the Macross Chronicles but that book just didn't have enough info for him..

[azrael]

The only thing I can suggest is adapt a RPG system around the setup in Frontier. Palladium did it with Macross II, cuz that's about all we're going to get if the Chronicles isn't enough.

[SchizophrenicMC]

What Azrael said. It's all about adaptation. It's hard to scratch something together with so little backstory as to recent events.

By the by, your avatar looks incredibly like Bit Cloud.

[sketchley]

The only thing I can suggest is adapt a RPG system around the setup in Frontier. Palladium did it with Macross II, cuz that's about all we're going to get if the Chronicles isn't enough.

And that adaptation has been corrected, and expanded upon over the subsequent years. Here's a collection of stats and what not that further flesh things out: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/Statistics.htm

Stats are for the Palladium system, and are pretty much under constant revision, especially now with Macross Chronicle releasing new info biweekly... Nevertheless, the goal with them is to make them consistant with each other (see the ones marked with ©), and due to that consistancy, they should be easily converted to different game systems.

[terry the lone wolf]

Thanks Sketchley for the link & everybody for the advice; this is very helpful.

[Uxi]

Can someone summarize or point me to a link with a Cliff's notes explanation of NUNS, SMS, etc and how they came about from "old" UN Spacy. I don't recall that being explained in Frontier... or do we just have conjecture it was based off VFX2, etc?

[Gubaba]

Can someone summarize or point me to a link with a Cliff's notes explanation of NUNS, SMS, etc and how they came about from "old" UN Spacy. I don't recall that being explained in Frontier... or do we just have conjecture it was based off VFX2, etc?

Just conjecture. Although it might be explained somewhere in Macross Chronicle or the Frontier novelizations...

[Thom]

There is a nice addition to the Homeworld game.

And this one.

Your friend could possibly do something similar.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Thom

[sketchley]

Just conjecture. Although it might be explained somewhere in Macross Chronicle or the Frontier novelizations...

I think it was explained somewhere, officially.

If memory serves, it was a deevolution of power from the center. There weren't any big, catastrophic events; just a slow, gradual process (which is probably why Gubaba doesn't remember - as I remember him being active in the MW thread that it was posted in).

Anyhow, if you want a reason, then my speculation de jour is that it was due to the necessity of command. In M7 we are presented with a distant Earth giving commands to the UNS of the fleet, without really understanding the situation. Not to mention the time delays such transmissions would incur. MF, on the other hand, has the ultimate authority of the MF fleet within itself, thereby giving greater flexibility and the ability to respond to ongoing events with all the known facts.

[Seto Kaiba]

Can someone summarize or point me to a link with a Cliff's notes explanation of NUNS, SMS, etc and how they came about from "old" UN Spacy. I don't recall that being explained in Frontier... or do we just have conjecture it was based off VFX2, etc?

Actually, didn't Kawamori touch on that in one of the interviews that was posted here a while back? I don't remember all of the particulars, but I distinctly recall Kawamori acknowledging that Macross VF-X2's coup had been the original reason for the U.N. Gov't and U.N. Spacy being reorganized into the New U.N. Gov't and New U.N. Spacy, and that he'd replaced it with a gradual, natural decentralization of the government that necessitated its reorganization and the reorganization of its military because the old explanation "no longer fit with the present reality" or words to that effect.

I'd be inclined to say Kawamori's new rationale for it doesn't entirely rule out the events of VF-X2... and that rather than being the sole cause for the reorganization, the coup was just the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.

I think it was explained somewhere, officially.

The interview was posted here on MW, someone just has to dig out the link... I summarized my recollection of it above.

Anyhow, if you want a reason, then my speculation de jour is that it was due to the necessity of command. In M7 we are presented with a distant Earth giving commands to the UNS of the fleet, without really understanding the situation. Not to mention the time delays such transmissions would incur. MF, on the other hand, has the ultimate authority of the MF fleet within itself, thereby giving greater flexibility and the ability to respond to ongoing events with all the known facts.

Prior to Macross Frontier, the general impression given by what we see of long-range colony operations is that the U.N. Government is a strong supranational governing body and that its territories and colonization fleets are subordinate to that central government. After the reorganization, it's explicitly provided that the New U.N. Government is more in line with our modern United Nations, and that it's a weak supranational governing body of which all its territories and colony fleets are members (the colony fleets being literal city-states until such time as they set up shop on a planet). Each colony is responsible for the maintenance of its own defense force, but can call on reinforcements from Earth (and presumably other member states).

[RedWolf]

Actually, didn't Kawamori touch on that in one of the interviews that was posted here a while back? I don't remember all of the particulars, but I distinctly recall Kawamori acknowledging that Macross VF-X2's coup had been the original reason for the U.N. Gov't and U.N. Spacy being reorganized into the New U.N. Gov't and New U.N. Spacy, and that he'd replaced it with a gradual, natural decentralization of the government that necessitated its reorganization and the reorganization of its military because the old explanation "no longer fit with the present reality" or words to that effect.

I'd be inclined to say Kawamori's new rationale for it doesn't entirely rule out the events of VF-X2... and that rather than being the sole cause for the reorganization, the coup was just the straw that broke the camel's back, as it were.

Actually they always called themselves New UN Government. Well they had to because the UN Government was basically wiped out of existence when the entire Bodolle Zer Main Fleet came.

Comparing civilian authority and military authority relationships between Macross 7 and Macross Frontier I think acknowledgement of Earth military bigwigs comes from the fact who funded the fleet construction in the first place.

Macross Dynamite 7 Mylene Beat had Colonel Barton say that the "Joint Government" would never agree to his black project. This to me suggests that Elected official like Millia and Military leader as Max are co-equal authority. Also Max takes his orders from Earth.

Macross Frontier clearly has the elected president as its supreme military commander.

From the interview Shoji Kawamori said the reason why Frontier was going in that direction is because of Bilrer's influence. This tells me that Bilrer mostly funded the construction of Macross Frontier and probably lobbied for a more civilian authority.

Macross Galaxy is a similar beast to Frontier. Only in its case it is run by a corporate exceutive board. Galaxy's construction was mostly funded by General Galaxy. General Galaxy being formerly or an offshoot of OTEC yeah with the money they have they could pull it off.

As Ozma said "That's capitalism for you".

Its kinda like the British empire during the 19th century where money talks. Irony is the NUNG is a parliment system.

As for the name change from UN Spacy to New UN Spacy VF-X2 events may have something to do with it.

Edited January 11, 2010 by RedWolf

[sketchley]

Actually they always called themselves New UN Government. Well they had to because the UN Government was basically wiped out of existence when the entire Bodolle Zer Main Fleet came.

Careful, careful. Especially with your adjectives. Until MF, it was inconsistantly called "the new UN Government" AND "the UN Government". But if you want to be really picky, it'd be "the new Unity [unified] Government" and "the Unity [unified] Government".

Note capitalization and how it indicates that the adjective, new, is not part of the name. A la "the new New York".

MF has consistantly and clearly identified it as "the New UN Government" (or "the New Unity [unified] Government"), along with the handy English label "NUNS" (as in "the New UN [unity, Unified] Spacy"); which is a term never used nor seen in any previous Macross.

As for the name change from UN Spacy to New UN Spacy VF-X2 events may have something to do with it.

Which is what we've all been saying.

Edited January 11, 2010 by sketchley

[RedWolf]

VF-X2 was more a military adventurism by creating artificial threats justifying increased powers. Not to mention testing a new weapon for plausible deniability.

Main Big Bad Wilbur Garland's reasons was pretty SRW Bian Zoldark. Unite everybody before the next posible invasion. Under the direction of the military. From Macross Plus we know there conflicts in the background.

We've seen this arrogant attitude before with Barton in Macross 7. That the civilians being the sheep that they are should follow the military authority as the military knows best.

These sort of negative attitudes are type Global sought to prevent from influencing humanity by the plan to spread humanity.

We also have to note the demoralization in the military. In Macross Plus General Gomez was planning on the replacement of the Valkyies with Ghosts.

We see that in some capacity with Macross Frontier's first encounter with the Vajra. Ghosts were sent first and when they were destroyed then they sent live pilots.

[azrael]

I don't recall Kawamori mentioning the events of VF-X 2 as the reason or as a reason for the NUN in that interview. IIRC, it was as sketchley described it, as an evolution from a centralized system to a decentralized system.

Also, this whole "demoralization" of the doesn't seem to be. Reading the Chronicle (and the 1/72 RVF-25 manual), the driving issue with lower pilot numbers is costs (time and money). Ghosts are cheaper (1/3 of the cost of producing and maintaining a VF-171, by 2059). Pilots and VFs costs too much money. It costs too much to build the VF-19. The VF-11C made the VF-11 cheaper. It costs time and money to train pilots. They simplify the VFs because they need regular pilots to fly those things. EX-Gear is suppose to reduce the time it takes to train pilots. Etc... Time and money are issues that plague the Macross-universe just like the real world.

[sketchley]

I don't recall Kawamori mentioning the events of VF-X 2 as the reason or as a reason for the NUN in that interview. IIRC, it was as sketchley described it, as an evolution from a centralized system to a decentralized system.

Also, this whole "demoralization" of the doesn't seem to be. Reading the Chronicle (and the 1/72 RVF-25 manual), the driving issue with lower pilot numbers is costs (time and money). Ghosts are cheaper (1/3 of the cost of producing and maintaining a VF-171, by 2059). Pilots and VFs costs too much money. It costs too much to build the VF-19. The VF-11C made the VF-11 cheaper. It costs time and money to train pilots. They simplify the VFs because they need regular pilots to fly those things. EX-Gear is suppose to reduce the time it takes to train pilots. Etc... Time and money are issues that plague the Macross-universe just like the real world.

Thanks.

I'd also like to add that:

- the story of VF-X2 is not military adventurism*, but a group of terrorist organizations causing a situation, and certain members of the military-industrial complex** taking advantage of it for personal gain***.

- training has been simplified and unmanned craft have been used to the point that live pilots don't have the right skills to deal with military situations in 2059. That was one of the points of MF eps. 01.

* The description sounds like the plot of "Patlabor II". Which is a decidedly political movie. Macross has yet to be so political.

** Used as short hand to convey the point. The military-industrial complex doesn't exist in the same sense as it does in, say, the USA of the real world.

*** Sound familiar to those viewers of MF?

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't recall Kawamori mentioning the events of VF-X 2 as the reason or as a reason for the NUN in that interview. IIRC, it was as sketchley described it, as an evolution from a centralized system to a decentralized system.

It wasn't Kawamori who mentioned it... it was the interviewer who asked if the reorganization of the government was no longer the result of a coup, and Kawamori said that it no longer fit within the present reality of the universe. Lemme dig up the link.

Here you go... the interview in question was printed in issue 9 of Otona Anime and the English translation gleaned from Akiba Station by Zinjo. The relevant text is near the bottom of the first post, just search in-text for "coup" and it'll come right up: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...amori+interview

Edited January 11, 2010 by Seto Kaiba