TV ARMD & Movie ARMD

[sketchley]

Alrighty... I've been translating the Macross Chronicle DYRL ARMD, and I've noticed some things. Interesting things. Things that make me say "wait a second, isn't the DYRL version supposed to be more advanced than the SDFM version?"

The movie version is described as "Space Carrier ARMD", and as nothing more than a platform floating in space for the operations of carrier-based aircraft and hurriedly converted into use as the "arms/carrier-based aircraft support platforms" of the SDF-1.

The TV version is described as a "Combat Space Carrier ARMD", which not only has a bunch more weapons and flying controls (it's got a main engine, unlike the movie version which only has manuevering thrusters), but has the capability of fold navigation. Sure, it's never implemented, but the information on both ARMDs is up to SWI, not after. After SWI, there is only minute tidbits of info gleaned in passing. And they are:

- SDFN class. Each has a pair of movie ARMDs for arms. Since there are only 12 SDFN ships produced (by 2059, though indications are that it ceased production before 2020), that means 24+2 (refit SDF-1). Giving a total of 26 known "converted space rig ARMD Space Carriers". Were 26 originally produced? Or did 24 of them get produced post-SWI? Unclear.

- Orbit of Eden. One of the game stages of "Macross Plus Game Edition" takes place on a TV ARMD. The implications are that it folded there itself (though it could have been brought with another fold capable ship). Nevertheless, it's a TV ARMD active and in use in 2040. Is it a new ship, or one of the ones produced pre-SWI? Unclear. Nevertheless, it adds some weight to the information in...

- "VF Master File VF-1 Valkyrie" (canonicity debated), where 14 TV "Combat Space Carrier ARMD" are indicated as having been produced by 2014, and a plan to produce beyond the 15th is indicated as existing, with 11 to 14 having fold drives. As the book claims to be published in June, 2020, it makes one wonder why the chart stops in 2014...

Anyhow, 5 different sources* all show the concurrent use of the "Space Carrier ARMD" and the "Combat Space Carrier ARMD" in Macross. With the following numbers:

26 converted space rig Space Carrier ARMD

8 or 14 (or more) Combat Space Carrier ARMD. Of these, "VMFVV" indicates that 9 are lost or have left with a Megaroad fleet by 2014, and new ships are being produced at a rate of 2 per year.

* Macross Plus, Macross Plus Game Edition, Macross Frontier, Macross Chronicle, VF Master File VF-1 Valkyrie". 4 of these being considered canon, and interestingly only 1 (M+GE) being the only one to have both types of ARMD!

[sketchley]

Oh... and for the Macross II fans:

Indications on the Macross Chronicle DYRL ARMD page are that there are only 2 converted space rig Space Carrier ARMD produced. On the other hand, it's unclear how many other space rigs were produced, if any. Or even if there was a fleet of Oberth Space Destroyers to escort the ARMD and space rigs!

EDIT: pesky typos... >.<

Edited December 31, 2009 by sketchley

[Seto Kaiba]

Alrighty... I've been translating the Macross Chronicle DYRL ARMD, and I've noticed some things. Interesting things. Things that make me say "wait a second, isn't the DYRL version supposed to be more advanced than the SDFM version?"

Not sure exactly what would've made you think that, expect the implication that the "DYRL version" is a postwar version made specifically to work with the Macross-class super dimension fortress in a support role. I'd never really given any thought to the matter, assuming that they were probably technologically comparable (given when the new versions were supposedly first made) variations on the same hull design meant for slightly different combat roles. If I may, I'd like to inject a few of my own insights and some (no doubt esoteric) additional information.

The movie version is described as "Space Carrier ARMD", and as nothing more than a platform floating in space for the operations of carrier-based aircraft and hurriedly converted into use as the "arms/carrier-based aircraft support platforms" of the SDF-1.

The TV version is described as a "Combat Space Carrier ARMD", which not only has a bunch more weapons and flying controls (it's got a main engine, unlike the movie version which only has maneuvering thrusters), but has the capability of fold navigation. Sure, it's never implemented, but the information on both ARMDs is up to SWI, not after.

Part of me has always felt that there's something fundamentally wrong about the design of the "Combat ARMD" in the original Macross TV series. Generally speaking, the fleet tactics of the U.N. Spacy are at least superficially based around real-world naval tactics and fleet roles, despite having a few ships that don't fit into the conventional mold (the colony ships, Macrosses, etc.). As such, it's a bit odd to see something that on paper is intended to be an aircraft carrier charging into battle equipped with battleship-grade gun turrets and missile launchers. All things being equal, one would expect the majority of a carrier's armament to be anti-aircraft weapons and for it to rely on its fighter complement and escorts for protection and the destruction of enemy ships. The movie version, and many of the later carrier designs in Macross fit that particular bill perfectly, which just leaves me scratching my head when it comes to the TV series ARMD.

On a relevant side note, in the Macross II continuity game Macross: Eternal Love Song DYRL-variant ARMDs produced after Space War 1 are clearly seen operating in almost the exact capacity described above, independent of a larger craft like a Macross-class fortress and supported by (oddly enough) by a complement of Oberth-class guided missile destroyers. Presumably despite their lack of a large main engine cluster they still have enough "get up and go" to keep pace with their escorts and maneuver in-system. (Also somewhat relevant is the Daedalus II-type space assault carrier which combines features of both versions of ARMD)

- SDFN class. Each has a pair of movie ARMDs for arms. Since there are only 12 SDFN ships produced (by 2059, though indications are that it ceased production before 2020), that means 24+2 (refit SDF-1). Giving a total of 26 known "converted space rig ARMD Space Carriers". Were 26 originally produced? Or did 24 of them get produced post-SWI? Unclear.

Given what little information we have on the first appearance of the DYRL-variant ARMD in the main Macross continuity, the first (known) examples of which being the reconstructed ARMD-01 and -02 attached to the newly-repaired SDF-1 Macross in 2012, one could infer that all eight ARMDs lost during Space War 1 were of the "Combat ARMD" type seen in the TV series, and that the 26 DYRL-variant ARMDs presumed to have been produced for the Macross and the SDFNs were produced after the war specifically for that purpose, along with any "Combat ARMD" models seen afterward.

- Orbit of Eden. One of the game stages of "Macross Plus Game Edition" takes place on a TV ARMD. The implications are that it folded there itself (though it could have been brought with another fold capable ship). Nevertheless, it's a TV ARMD active and in use in 2040. Is it a new ship, or one of the ones produced pre-SWI? Unclear. Nevertheless, it adds some weight to the information in...

As existing sources point to all eight of the original ARMDs having been destroyed in the TV series version of events, one would assume that any ARMDs seen after the war, be they the TV series "Combat ARMD" or DYRL variant, were probably built after the war, and thus may have been equipped with the designed-but-not-implemented fold navigation system. No evidence that I'm aware of points to any ARMDs having survived Space War 1, with the possible exception of any which were still under construction at the time and slated to be support ships for the incomplete SDF-2 (the ARMD-A and -B we see in the unused line art).

- "VF Master File VF-1 Valkyrie" (canonicity debated), where 14 TV "Combat Space Carrier ARMD" are indicated as having been produced by 2014, and a plan to produce beyond the 15th is indicated as existing, with 11 to 14 having fold drives. As the book claims to be published in June, 2020, it makes one wonder why the chart stops in 2014...

"Canonicity debated"? As the Master File is a clear successor to (and draws on) the old Sky Angels VF-1 Tech Manual book, the safest assumption is that anything in it which is not independently documented in more reliable publications (such as Macross Chronicle, the Gold Book, etc.) is probably not canon... this extends to the list giving the names and presumed dispositions of 14 or so ARMDs. At best, we could perhaps assume this list represented the U.N.'s intent prior to the outbreak of Space War 1, at which time only two ARMDs had even been completed, and that it was likely fatally derailed by the loss of ARMDs 03 thru 08 along with most of Earth's surface and population.

Oh... and for the Macross II fans:

Indications on the Macross Chronicle DYRL ARMD page are that there are only 2 converted space rig Space Carrier ARMD produced. On the other hand, it's unclear how many other space rigs were produced, if any. Or even if there was a fleet of Oberth Space Destroyers to escort the ARMD and space rigs!

Waaaaaaaaaaay ahead of ya... scroll up a wee bit, I've addressed this one.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

Generally speaking, the fleet tactics of the U.N. Spacy are at least superficially based around real-world naval tactics and fleet roles, despite having a few ships that don't fit into the conventional mold (the colony ships, Macrosses, etc.). As such, it's a bit odd to see something that on paper is intended to be an aircraft carrier charging into battle equipped with battleship-grade gun turrets and missile launchers.

Hmmm... going by the fleet roles based on real-world naval roles, IMHO the Combat ARMD would be a ship filling two roles: carrier and battleship. I say this, because the kanji used for the ship can also be used for battleship. (戦闘空母ARMD and 戦闘艦). Naming it "Combat Carrier" is just an esthetic choice, as it could also be "Fight(ing) Carrier" and "Battle Carrier" (but as we already have a Battle class carrier in Macross...)

Nevertheless, battle capable or not, as soon as I learned that the Combat ARMD is fold travel capable, I felt that it was intended to be the flagship of a task force of Oberths. Possibly in the roles of exploring and patrolling the outer reaches of the solar system, and most likely in the role of defolding in a strategic position to catch enemies in a crossfire. Of course, we'll probably never know the plans the UN Spacy had for these ships...

On a relevant side note, in the Macross II continuity game Macross: Eternal Love Song DYRL-variant ARMDs produced after Space War 1 are clearly seen operating in almost the exact capacity described above, independent of a larger craft like a Macross-class fortress and supported by (oddly enough) by a complement of Oberth-class guided missile destroyers.

This is interesting. Partially in that it mirrors the Studio Nue continuity, what with Oberth's surviving SWI, and a fleet of (upgraded?) Oberth's accompaning Megaroad 01. One copied the other? It was the plan all along? Hmmm...

and that the 26 DYRL-variant ARMDs presumed to have been produced for the Macross and the SDFNs were produced after the war specifically for that purpose, along with any "Combat ARMD" models seen afterward.

Given that the Chronicle article states that the space fighter us space rigs (some? all? converted to the DYRL ARMD) were intended to be deployed at the Legrange points and above satellite orbit, places were the colony bunches, space ship factory docks, etc. were and are known to have survived SWI, it wouldn't be surprising if a few, some, most or even all of those that became the 26 DYRL ARMDs survived SWI.

As existing sources point to all eight of the original ARMDs having been destroyed in the TV series version of events,

Sadly, the Macross Chronicle article in the Combat ARMD doesn't mention post SWI. VFMFVV states that 2 of the initial 8 survived SWI (6 and .

"Canonicity debated"? As the Master File is a clear successor to (and draws on) the old Sky Angels VF-1 Tech Manual book, the safest assumption is that anything in it which is not independently documented in more reliable publications (such as Macross Chronicle, the Gold Book, etc.) is probably not canon... this extends to the list giving the names and presumed dispositions of 14 or so ARMDs. At best, we could perhaps assume this list represented the U.N.'s intent prior to the outbreak of Space War 1, at which time only two ARMDs had even been completed, and that it was likely fatally derailed by the loss of ARMDs 03 thru 08 along with most of Earth's surface and population.

Which is why I stated it's cononicity is debated.

Anyhow, a good arguement, but it doesn't work, as the book is purportedly published in 2020.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hmmm... going by the fleet roles based on real-world naval roles, IMHO the Combat ARMD would be a ship filling two roles: carrier and battleship. I say this, because the kanji used for the ship can also be used for battleship. (戦闘空母ARMD and 戦闘艦). Naming it "Combat Carrier" is just an aesthetic choice, as it could also be "Fight(ing) Carrier" and "Battle Carrier" (but as we already have a Battle class carrier in Macross...)

Yeah, I know... but it's hard to consider the ARMD's TV variant as a proper battleship given that the U.N. Spacy already had a much bigger, more effective ship for that particular role, and the very definition of the acronym ARMD essentially boils down to "bigass hangar deck with engines and a few guns bolted on".

This is interesting. Partially in that it mirrors the Studio Nue continuity, what with Oberth's surviving SWI, and a fleet of (upgraded?) Oberth's accompaning Megaroad 01. One copied the other? It was the plan all along? Hmmm...

Eh? I don't recall seeing the bit in Chronicle about Oberths from Apollo Base surviving Space War 1 anywhere else. Isn't that new information, or is it reiterated from somewhere that I've forgotten? Also, did they actually confirm that those things that looked vaguely Oberth-like in FB2012 were in fact Oberth-class destroyers? As far as I can recall, the earliest example of Oberth-class space destroyers still being in use after Space War 1 is Macross: Eternal Love Song, which came out in 1992.

Given that the Chronicle article states that the space fighter us space rigs (some? all? converted to the DYRL ARMD) were intended to be deployed at the Legrange points and above satellite orbit, places were the colony bunches, space ship factory docks, etc. were and are known to have survived SWI, it wouldn't be surprising if a few, some, most or even all of those that became the 26 DYRL ARMDs survived SWI.

That's a trifle odd... I take it that was gleaned from your not-yet-typed translation of the DYRL ARMD sheet? It seems a bit at odds with the established information about the ARMDs from the TV series (and TV series sheet), where only eight ARMDs were completed and commissioned prior to the end of Space War 1, and all eight of which were supposedly lost during the war, as the fleet disposition after the war mentions only a hundred or so Zentradi capital ships and the two Macross-class super dimension fortresses.

I think the problem you're having here stems from trying to combine two accounts of the ARMD's service history which are essentially mutually exclusive, the one from DYRL and the one from the TV series. By all accounts the first known example of the DYRL pattern ARMD in the main continuity are the rebuilt ARMD-I and ARMD-II, which were supposedly built for the SDF-1 Macross during its restoration. It would be consistent with the available facts for any and all ARMDs available after the war to have been built after the war. It would also make sense for the "Combat ARMD" to be the fold-capable ARMD mentioned to accompany early colony fleets, and for the DYRL pattern ARMDs to have been built on an as-needed basis for the mass-produced Macross-class ships, orbital defenses, and the like.

Sadly, the Macross Chronicle article in the Combat ARMD doesn't mention post SWI. VFMFVV states that 2 of the initial 8 survived SWI (6 and .

Other sources (like the fleet numbers which come from either Perfect Memory or the Gold Book, I've forgotten which) point to all six surviving ARMDs (03-08) being destroyed during the final battle of the war, leaving the U.N. Spacy with just their two Macross-class ships and a hundred or so Zentradi warships. Given how frequently and thoroughly the VF-1 Master File contradicts the canon, I would be inclined to just throw the whole book out as unreliable. Certainly the ARMD sections are entirely unreliable, since they were copied almost whole cloth from the old Sky Angels VF-1 Tech Manual, a non-canon doujin from 1984. It obviously predates Flashback 2012, but given its content I'm fairly sure it predates DYRL as well, which doesn't bode well for its accuracy. Given the sources involved in its creation, I would say it should be common sense that the Variable Fighter VF-1 Master File is entirely unreliable, definitely non-canon, and that nothing from it should be treated as accurate unless it jives with other, more reliable publications like Chronicle, the Gold Book, Perfect Memory, etc.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[RedWolf]

Aren't portions of the port and starboard sides of a Megaroad class ARMDs?

[Seto Kaiba]

Aren't portions of the port and starboard sides of a Megaroad class ARMDs?

I don't think they are, no... granted, there are sections near the engines that look vaguely like a movie-style ARMD in that they have the claw-like bits on the end and markings that look vaguely like a helipad, but by the look of things they're like twice as long as an ARMD should be (or half as wide, either way the proportions are all screwed up), they look to be built directly into the Megaroad's spaceframe, and they don't have the prow command deck or the amidships tower by the look of things. Neither the Compendium, nor the Macross Chronicle mechanic sheet makes mention of the Megaroad being equipped with ARMDs, so I don't think it does have any.

Edited December 31, 2009 by Seto Kaiba