Generations of VF's

[thankheaven]

So i was watching a documentary about the different generations of fighter aircraft yesterday. It went through all the generations and talked about what innovation each new generation introduced and showed the evolution.

And that got me thinking about Macross.

How many different generations of VF's would you say there are in macross ?

What new does each generation introduce and which VF's belong in which generation ?

In my opinion (I only use the most known VF's)

Pre-Generation 1:

SV-51

VF-0

Generation 1:

VF-1

Generation 2:

VF-4

Generation 3:

VF-11

Generation 4:

YF-19, VF-19, YF-21, VF-22, VF-17

Generation 4.5:

VF-171

Generation 5:

VF-25, VF-27

Not sure about the VF-171 as its not as advanced as the 25 and 27 most likely and its just an upgraded 17. Perhaps a generation 4.5 then.

Not sure about the VF-0 either, it doesn't have the reaction engines the VF-1 have but everything else is the same even if it can't go into space. Its not a generation below the VF-1 but not at the exact same level either. So i just called it pre-generation 1.

Edited December 22, 2009 by thankheaven

[RDClip]

I'd put the VF-17 with the VF-11 since it is the special forces valk for that generation. And the VF-171 with the VF-19, because it was commissioned as a replacement for the more expensive VF-19 (though i would guess the 19 is still the better plane.)

[azrael]

There's a nice little chart in Great Mechanic DX #4 which sketchley partially translated.

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2385.0

SV-51, VF-0 --> VF-1 --> VF-4, VF-5000, VF-9, VF-3000 --> VF-11, VF-14 --> VF-19, VF-22 -->VF-25, VF-27.

The VF-17 and the VF-171 kinda fits in between the VF-11 and the VF-19, on its own line. Since the VF-17 was a Special Forces unit, it doesn't quite fit in the main line. And since the VF-171 is derived from that and is a mix of the VF-11/VF-14-era and the VF-19/VF-22-era, it's somewhere in-between.

[sketchley]

There's a nice little chart in Great Mechanic DX #4 which sketchley partially translated.

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2385.0

SV-51, VF-0 --> VF-1 --> VF-4, VF-5000, VF-9, VF-3000 --> VF-11, VF-14 --> VF-19, VF-22 -->VF-25, VF-27.

The VF-17 and the VF-171 kinda fits in between the VF-11 and the VF-19, on its own line. Since the VF-17 was a Special Forces unit, it doesn't quite fit in the main line. And since the VF-171 is derived from that and is a mix of the VF-11/VF-14-era and the VF-19/VF-22-era, it's somewhere in-between.

I'd go so far as to classify them:

Generation 1:

VF-1, VF-0, SV-51

(technically the VF-0 and SV-51 are only testbed fighters, and shouldn't really be considered finished products. Nevertheless, aside from the thermonuclear engines, there isn't a technological difference between them and the VF-1)

Generation 1.5:

VF-3000, VF-4, VF-5, VF-5000, VF-9

(post SWI refinements from actual combat data and acquired Zentraadi technology, increase in stealthiness, etc., but none, other than the VF-3000, are all regime. Not a major leap).

Generation 2:

VF-11, VF-14

(compared to their predecessors, they have a major technological leap. Or - they are a combination of all the successful traits of the preceeding craft - something that the gen 1.5 craft couldn't do)

Generation 2.5:

VF-17, VB-6

(generally improvements over gen 2, but not quite as large a technological leap. The Macross Chronicle tech sheet Valkyrie development history part 3 refers to their era as being the era of "heavy variable craft". As in, greater amounts of armour compared to their predecessors.)

Generation 3:

VF-19, VF-22

(Perhaps the best way to sum it up is that they have the capabilities of gen 2.5 craft, but in fast, manueverable airframes that excell in all regimes. The VF-171 probably fits in here.)

Generation 4:

VF-25, VF-27, VF-171EX

The above is, of course, based on the Macross Chronicle Technology Sheets: Valkyrie Development History 1~3 (4?), which divide VFs into:

#1: F-14 > VF-0 > VF-X > VF-1

#2: VF-4 > VF-3000 > VF-5 > VF-5000 > VF-9 > VF-11 > VF-14

#3: VF-19 > VF-22 > Ghost X-9 (with the VF-17 & VB-6 getting only a sidebar paragraph

I'm guessing that if there's a 4th sheet, it'll be about YF-24 > VF-25 > VF-27.

Edited December 23, 2009 by sketchley

[sketchley]

Not sure about the VF-0 either, it doesn't have the reaction engines the VF-1 have but everything else is the same even if it can't go into space. Its not a generation below the VF-1 but not at the exact same level either. So i just called it pre-generation 1.

Actually, it can. It has the same low-thrust manuevering verniers as later VFs. Even the VF-0B painting by Tenjin Hidetaka has "space proving wing" on the side. Of course, it wouldn't be able to use it's conventional engines. But hey, it's not like it was designed to be put into combat, either.

[thankheaven]

I'd go so far as to classify them:

Generation 1:

VF-1, VF-0, SV-51

(technically the VF-0 and SV-51 are only testbed fighters, and shouldn't really be considered finished products. Nevertheless, aside from the thermonuclear engines, there isn't a technological difference between them and the VF-1)

Generation 1.5:

VF-3000, VF-4, VF-5, VF-5000, VF-9

(post SWI refinements from actual combat data and acquired Zentraadi technology, increase in stealthiness, etc., but none, other than the VF-3000, are all regime. Not a major leap).

Generation 2:

VF-11, VF-14

(compared to their predecessors, they have a major technological leap. Or - they are a combination of all the successful traits of the preceeding craft - something that the gen 1.5 craft couldn't do)

Generation 2.5:

VF-17, VB-6

(generally improvements over gen 2, but not quite as large a technological leap. The Macross Chronicle tech sheet Valkyrie development history part 3 refers to their era as being the era of "heavy variable craft". As in, greater amounts of armour compared to their predecessors.)

Generation 3:

VF-19, VF-22

(Perhaps the best way to sum it up is that they have the capabilities of gen 2.5 craft, but in fast, manueverable airframes that excell in all regimes. The VF-171 probably fits in here.)

Generation 4:

VF-25, VF-27, VF-171EX

The above is, of course, based on the Macross Chronicle Technology Sheets: Valkyrie Development History 1~3 (4?), which divide VFs into:

#1: F-14 > VF-0 > VF-X > VF-1

#2: VF-4 > VF-3000 > VF-5 > VF-5000 > VF-9 > VF-11 > VF-14

#3: VF-19 > VF-22 > Ghost X-9 (with the VF-17 & VB-6 getting only a sidebar paragraph

I'm guessing that if there's a 4th sheet, it'll be about YF-24 > VF-25 > VF-27.

Sounds about right.

I wouldn't call the VF-4 a true successor to the VF-1 even if it was designed to replace it.

I think the VF-11 is the first true successor to the VF-1 both in technology and capabilities.

Its the YF-19/VF-19 and YF-21/VF-22 that really started to bring something new to the table with the built in pinpoint barrier system for VF's and ability to use foldboosters (Even though the VF-17's could use them in a limited way too)

The VF-25 seems like a refined VF-19 with better weapons and more options and weapon packs.

[sketchley]

Now that the website is running again, I can give the link that I wanted to, yesterday: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/inde...g35166#msg35166

Also, the VF-25 et al are more of a quantum leap above the VF-19. The largest difference is the excess amount of power that the engines provide. That excess power allows for a whole slew of new tricks. SWAG in fighter mode, pinpoint barriers that are no longer pin points, transfering inertia into a sub-dimension and slowly reabsorbing it back into the airframe at manageable levels, etc..

[Kronnang Dunn]

I'd go so far as to classify them:

Generation 1:

VF-1, VF-0, SV-51

(technically the VF-0 and SV-51 are only testbed fighters, and shouldn't really be considered finished products. Nevertheless, aside from the thermonuclear engines, there isn't a technological difference between them and the VF-1)

Actually, it can. It has the same low-thrust manuevering verniers as later VFs. Even the VF-0B painting by Tenjin Hidetaka has "space proving wing" on the side. Of course, it wouldn't be able to use it's conventional engines. But hey, it's not like it was designed to be put into combat, either.

I read somewhere that the SV-51 was designed for combat since the begining and was more stable during battle, able to hover and with VTOL in fighter mode. However, it consumed its fuel pretty fast due to its engines and had slow transformation times.

The VF-0 on the other hand was a rushed combat capable prototype, with little underwater operations capacity, no outerspace operations capacity, overheating engine problems, low ammunition and no VTOL in Gerwalk mode...

All in all, the VF-1 is waaay superior to them, despite the lack of passive stealth. I don't think is fair to put the VF-1 in the same league of the Macross Zero valkyries...

Edited December 24, 2009 by Kronnang Dunn

[sketchley]

All in all, the VF-1 is waaay superior to them, despite the lack of passive stealth. I don't think is fair to put the VF-1 in the same league of the Macross Zero valkyries...

Actually it is*, and Macross Chronicle** does it. The only major difference between the VF-1 and the VF-0 and SV-51 is the thermonuclear engines and it's related systems (fuel, etc.).

Anyhow, where did you read that information? Some of it sounds canon, some of it assumptions, and some of it wrong and contradicting what is seen in the anime.

* see above re: my point about technology, and especially my point about the space manuevering verniers.

** More on this later. The latest issue has a lot on the cockpits and engines of VFs. Which provide another two avenues to put variable craft into generations.

Edited December 24, 2009 by sketchley

[azrael]

I read somewhere that the SV-51 was designed for combat since the begining and was more stable during battle, able to hover and with VTOL in fighter mode. However, it consumed its fuel pretty fast due to its engines and had slow transformation times.

The Chronicle reinforce the point out that the SV-51 is the first combat VF (on the SV-51 sheets) and it does have slower transformation times due to its larger airframe. I'm not sure however about the fuel-part. I don't recall seeing that.

[Loop]

The Chronicle reinforce the point out that the SV-51 is the first combat VF (on the SV-51 sheets) and it does have slower transformation times due to its larger airframe. I'm not sure however about the fuel-part. I don't recall seeing that.

The SV-51 WAS the FIRST VF, but it was developed around plans/tech stolen from the U.N.G.

The fuel problem did exist with the SV-51, that's why they launched them from the submarines. This got the SV-51 closer to it's operational area.

The problem was that the engines were tuned or shall we say over driven to provide the performance of the craft, which in turn burned fuel like crazy.

The nuclear reaction engines were not ready for prime time, causing the VF-0's and SV-51's to use conventional engines which had to be over driven to achieve viable performance.

Here is a quote from the Macross Mecha Manual:

"Though the SV-51 enjoys numerous advances over last-generation conventional fighters, the craft does suffer from several design flaws. The size of the aircraft places a burden on the transformation actuators leading to a longer transformation time from one mode to the next. Lacking thermonuclear reaction engines needed to properly operate a variable fighter meant the SV-51 has a much shorter range due to high fuel consumption. Rather than cruising to a destination using it's own fuel, it was often necessary for the SV-51 to be transported to the operational area, typically by a modified submarine and launched from underwater."

Edited December 24, 2009 by Loop

[azrael]

The SV-51 WAS the FIRST VF, but it was developed around plans/tech stolen from the U.N.G.

If it was stolen from plans, then that wouldn't make it the first VF, now would it? As I said, the SV-51 is the first combat VF.

Also, the Macross Mecha Manual is a fan site and hasn't been updated in a while. Mr. March hasn't been around which is why it probably hasn't been updated.

[Loop]

If it was stolen from plans, then that wouldn't make it the first VF, now would it? As I said, the SV-51 is the first combat VF.

Also, the Macross Mecha Manual is a fan site and hasn't been updated in a while. Mr. March hasn't been around which is why it probably hasn't been updated.

I'm sorry, I guess I should have said "First operationally deployed VF"