Macross The First

[Beltane70]

Yesterday, I finally got the third collected volume of Macross The First. Bring on the fourth volume!

[Gubaba]

After reading the latest chapter, I gotta admit that I really have no idea where the story is going...

[sketchley]

After reading the latest chapter, I gotta admit that I really have no idea where the story is going...

Agreed. It's skipped the point in DYRL where the main characters were captured by the Zentraadi... and by all appearances, they're not getting captured at the point and in the way that they do in SDFM...

It's great!

In addition, I really dig that they're not only highlighting the VF-1's piss-poor space performance... but that the Zentraadi have clued into it and have developed tactics that exploit that weakness!

All in all, it's a great setup for the characters (watching Fokker freak out, among other things), and provides a natural development (justification) for the Super Parts. I especially liked the dorsal packs with the Destroid arms plugged into it. Completely, utterly ridiculously over the top.

[reddsun1]

In addition, I really dig that they're not only highlighting the VF-1's piss-poor space performance... but that the Zentraadi have clued into it and have developed tactics that exploit that weakness!

BLASPHEMY!

[although I do remember Roy saying of the Zentraedi pods in an early ep--was it Robotech or Mac dub? can't remember--that "...they move a lot better up here in space, so we're going to have our work cut out for us."]

[Gubaba]

All in all, it's a great setup for the characters (watching Fokker freak out, among other things), and provides a natural development (justification) for the Super Parts. I especially liked the dorsal packs with the Destroid arms plugged into it. Completely, utterly ridiculously over the top.

Yeah...when I got to that point, I was thinking, "Wow, this is a model/toy customizer's WET DREAM..."

But, at this point I'm getting a little...not worried, exactly, but wondering...how long is this series gonna be?

I remember when Gundam the Origin started and I figured it would be about seven of eight books, but it ended up being 23. Macross the First ran through the early episodes at a pretty rapid clip, but Mikimoto seems to be slowing the story down a little...which is fine, but I really hope the comic doesn't take a decade to complete.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Gubaba

[Mommar]

How is this not a good example why a re-imagined animation could be just as good/entertaining?

[sketchley]

BLASPHEMY!

?

Ignorance is bliss.

(contemplate this: if the VF-1 is so great, why did they start development on its successor, the VF-4, before it even entered mass production?

Edited May 11, 2012 by sketchley

[reddsun1]

(contemplate this: if the VF-1 is so great, why did they start development on its successor, the VF-4, before it even entered mass production?

Oh that's easy--to make sure they've got somewhere to expand the toy/model line to!

But no, seriously: are the development history notes on the VFs--and other mecha for that matter--something that was retconned after the original series proved successful?

ed: but as "modern" fighter designs go, the service life of the VF-1 does seem extremely short, at only 2(?) years before its successor begins phase in...

Edited May 23, 2012 by reddsun1

[VF5SS]

Well the VF-X-4 and the VF-4 were very early glimpses of the VF-1 being replaced rather quickly.

[Mommar]

(contemplate this: if the VF-1 is so great, why did they start development on its successor, the VF-4, before it even entered mass production?

This happens in a lot of engineering fields more often then you might think. There's always improvements/refinements to be made. Things that couldn't work because of time/budget/etc... but sound great can easily be sold as features for newer models. That doesn't mean the previous idea was bad, and indeed it could still have been an excellent idea and execution, but that doesn't mean new insight/more time won't yield better results in the future.

[sketchley]

Oh that's easy--to make sure they've got somewhere to expand the toy/model line to!

But no, seriously: are the development history notes on the VFs--and other mecha for that matter--something that was retconned after the original series proved successful?

The VF-X-4 appears in SDFM: http://upload.wikime...karu_VF-X-4.jpg

M:PM also has the development story of the VF-X-4 and what became the VF-4 (part of it in the following):

From the Macross Compendium, my translations:

• VF-X-1 Transformable prototype developmental version of the VF-1.
  
• VF-X-2 VF prototype developed at the same time as the VF-1; had adopted more OTM than the VF-1. Development destroyed during SWI.
  
• VF-X-3 A VF being protyped at the same time that the VF-1 was being developed. It had indicated that it was going to become the craft that competed with the VF-4 to be the successor of the VF-1. VF-X-3 was built centered on the VF-1's design camp. Even though the VF-X-3 exhibited performance far surpassing the VF-4, it was destroyed during SWI.
  
• VF-4: The VF-4 is a developed model of VF. It's full-blown development is indicated as taking place at the same time as the VF-X-3, and in the form of the VF-X-4. Because of the investment of Zentraadi-series technological know-how on top of existing OTM, the VF-X-4 consisted of an airframe style considerably different from the VF-1. With the goal of shortening the development period, parts sharing with the VF-1 was promoted. The prototype number one craft, the VF-X-4V1, achieved a sharing of 35% with the VF-1. Even though this ratio fell down to about 25% in the VF-4A-0, an additional prototype, the VF-4 was judged to have a fighting strength 40% better than the VF-1. This was based on the result of trials within the examination program, which included simulated dogfights* with the VF-1.
  

The details of the VF-4 may have been finessed over the years, but the point in time and the context that it appeared in SDFM was there from the start.

Edited May 23, 2012 by sketchley

[reddsun1]

In addition, I really dig that they're not only highlighting the VF-1's piss-poor space performance... but that the Zentraadi have clued into it and have developed tactics that exploit that weakness!

I'll admit, this has my curiosity piqued, makes me want to check this out; a little bit. But I'd initially want to counter with:

0:48 - Thrust Vectoring!

Edited May 26, 2012 by reddsun1

[sketchley]

So?

Thrust vectoring doesn't compensate for a limited fuel load. Ergo: poor space performance.

[anime52k8]

How is this not a good example why a re-imagined animation could be just as good/entertaining?

this needs to be turned into an animated series because I don't want to learn Japanese just to find out what's going on.

Edited May 26, 2012 by anime52k8

[GMANIFESS]

Isn't that the intro to one of the PS1 games? Explaining what happened to Prometheus, thus justifying the SDF-1 actually docking with the ARMD's in lunar orbit? I still kind of hate that DYRL just rewrote so much SDF history for later media.

Edited May 26, 2012 by GMANIFESS

[VF5SS]

I still kind of hate that DYRL just rewrote so much SDF history for later media.

ON NOEZ THE CANONZ

but srsly, I think them doing new stuff for something that is specifically THE Macross DYRL game for Sega Saturn (and later PSX) is perfectly fine.

[GMANIFESS]

ON NOEZ THE CANONZ

but srsly, I think them doing new stuff for something that is specifically THE Macross DYRL game for Sega Saturn (and later PSX) is perfectly fine.

Indeed. It's very refreshing to see classic mecha & characters in new footage & different mediums. But sadly we never got to see or acknowledge Daedalus attack ever again... And ever series after DYRL refuses to accept Prometheus & Daedalus as critical parts of the SDF-1. What's even funnier is that DYRL is a in-canon movie....

[VF5SS]

You could argue Battle 7 and its relatives are basically giant transforming Prometheus (WHOOOOOOOOM) style ships.

Although in my opinion, neither the Prometheus nor the Daedalus have aged particularly well. One is an out of date imagining of a future aircraft carrier while the other is just a big floating box. The Macross itself was just more appealing.

[GMANIFESS]

Well technically the SDF war is already over. It's 2012: aka Megaroad One/ VF-4 timeframe. So Prometheus isn't really out of date. It's one of the few ships we can somewhat relate too in real-life. Its' basically like a modified Nimitz class carrier. And it always helped me appreciate the scale of the Macross. If you have an aircraft carrier as your forearm.....

Daedalus was a big box, but also a semi- submersible attack landing craft full Destroid squadrons. I'll take both of those over an ARMD platform any day.

[GMANIFESS]

[reddsun1]

So?

Thrust vectoring doesn't compensate for a limited fuel load. Ergo: poor space performance.

Ah--so it's a range issue? Ok, I'm with you now.

Isn't that the intro to one of the PS1 games? Explaining what happened to Prometheus, thus justifying the SDF-1 actually docking with the ARMD's in lunar orbit? I still kind of hate that DYRL just rewrote so much SDF history for later media.

AFAIK, DYRL is considered a "dramatic retelling" of the events of Macross, i.e. a movie within the Macross universe; hence the "actors" flying later block model VF's, etc...

[VF5SS]

If you ask Kawamori, everything is kind of a dramatic retelling :v

Daedalus was a big box, but also a semi- submersible attack landing craft full Destroid squadrons. I'll take both of those over an ARMD platform any day.

Everything you can do, ARMD can do better

Edited May 27, 2012 by VF5SS

[GMANIFESS]

ARMD attack just isn't as awesome...

[Gubaba]

Isn't that the intro to one of the PS1 games? Explaining what happened to Prometheus, thus justifying the SDF-1 actually docking with the ARMD's in lunar orbit? I still kind of hate that DYRL just rewrote so much SDF history for later media.

So, since this is the Macross the First thread, how do you feel about Macross the First rewriting even more history...?

[GMANIFESS]

So, since this is the Macross the First thread, how do you feel about Macross the First rewriting even more history...?

Quite refreshing.

But is the FIRST considered the new canon or just another dramatic retelling?

I don't mind retellings. I'm just disturbed when the various series that follow only reference the retold aspects instead of the original. So if we get a new Macross series that takes place after Frontier, & they only the reference the much different events from the 2 Frontier movies & ignore various details & events from the original 25 episodes, i'd feel a bit cheated.... again.

[sketchley]

Ah--so it's a range issue? Ok, I'm with you now.

Endurance is a better way to consider it.

Everything you can do, ARMD can do better

Aah... the ARMD pooping Destroids scene. Fond memories.

[VF5SS]

But is the FIRST considered the new canon or just another dramatic retelling?

To paraphrase Mark Simmons of the Gundam fame, you can wait 12,000 years and the word "canon" isn't going to appear in Japanese vernacular.

[Gubaba]

Quite refreshing.

But is the FIRST considered the new canon or just another dramatic retelling?

Since it's a manga, it's just a dramatic retelling. If they were foolish enough to make it an anime, then anything goes.

I don't mind retellings. I'm just disturbed when the various series that follow only reference the retold aspects instead of the original. So if we get a new Macross series that takes place after Frontier, & they only the reference the much different events from the 2 Frontier movies & ignore various details & events from the original 25 episodes, i'd feel a bit cheated.... again.

Any new Macross would probably pick and choose from both...i.e. the YF-29 is real, Leon is dead, but Michel and Klan's grandson is the main pilot. Or something like that.

Just roll with it...

[sketchley]

To paraphrase Mark Simmons of the Gundam fame, you can wait 12,000 years and the word "canon" isn't going to appear in Japanese vernacular.

Agreed. But "official setting" does appear.

Is it part of the official setting? See Gubaba's post.

[TehPW]

did any look at the one of the videos after the DYRL Game, another video remake of the original TV intro? I swear i dont need viagra everytime im... pleasured in things mecha around here :wub: :wub:

ultimately does it matter if the IP holders rewrite history? its no different than Star Trek's Cannon... oh wait. paramount doesn't have any issues with Disharmony Mold, does it?

Edited May 28, 2012 by TehPW

[Zinjo]

The Daedalus always looked fully submersible to me. Both the soviets and the Chinese were actively researching the viability of submersible troop and equipment carriers. Outside of having air tight compartments and hatches, the idea of a semi or fully submersible CVN is just not viable IMHO. Perhaps a full blown series would be cost prohibitive to the sponsors but 3 movies telling a condensed version of the same story would might be possible. Though I am wondering what happened to the Asuka II design for the UN Naval carriers? It was CVN 99 and the Prometheus is CVN 101, yet none of the new design features seem to appear in the Manga...

[reddsun1]

Endurance is a better way to consider it.

Off on a bit of a tangent: just where IS the fuel stored in a VF-1? And what exactly would you use to fuel thermonuclear reaction turbines?

The reason I ask is because in ep 8: Sweet Sixteen, on one of Hikaru's first missions as a squadron ldr he notices Kakizaki's got a fuel leak after a brief skirmish--but the leak's sprung at the plane's nose, right where the nose gear would be! I know, I know--it's a plot device. But it got me to wondering: so what's the best spot for fuel storage, given the limited internal volume that's already taken up by mechanical linkages/actuators for other modes, etc?

[azrael]

And what exactly would you use to fuel thermonuclear reaction turbines?

...

Don't know where the fuel is stored but I'll answer this one. Thermonuclear reaction engines basically provide power, as in electricity. That electricity is used to heat your propellent. In atmosphere, that propellent would be air, like any real-life modern jet engine. In space, there is no air. So they need something to propel themselves with. That would be some kind of chemical propellent (think rocket).

[VF5SS]

Most cutaways show the VF-1 with fuel tanks in its legs and I think the wings. No word on how fuel outside of the legs would go from one point to another given the way the VF-1 transforms.

[Kurisama]

What about the tiny blisters on the top of the VF-1? They'd be on the shoulder blades in battroid - which the VF-0 had huge ones due to different tech. Aren't they also the fuel tanks?