Macross The First

[Xx-SKULL-ONE-xX]

So, support Macross by BUYING it. When people realize that there's money to made in English speaking markets, they are going to spend money to create materials specifically for the English speaking markets.

By not buying and making available/downloading (aka stealing) the material, you're not only killing the chance for a professional English version, you're also hurting it in the domestic market and any non-English speaking markets it's been, being or soon to be released in.

I am not one to be told to buy things Macross. All I am saying is that these will inevitably be scanlated and money will be lost because no proper English release was done sooner/in the first place. Especially if they are as good as purported to be. I feel that most Macross fans are willing to pony up for a legit release, problem being we haven't got one since Macross Plus.

My example with the Blu-Ray was to show that they would not have to actually make a North American release as long as proper English subs were applied, North America would order from Japan and screw Harmony Gold. Just look at all the people who bought them without subs..Imagine if they were subbed.

[Zinjo]

I have, but it's not the same trusting a review than taking a look at the manga in a bookstore or magazine stand (or in this case downloading some bad scans) and have a _preview_ with your own eyes of the material and see if you're actually interested in it.

Did I said the something about uploading?

In most countries downloading unlicensed material from internet is not illegal, uploading said material is. (unless you live in the US and get caught by the RIAA or MPAA for example)

Don't get me wrong, I think what you're doing promoting the purchase of original material and supporting the franchise is great. But not all of us have the means to import the material to our countries or the time to learn japanese 'only' to fully enjoy said material.

I'll probably have to wait years for the local edition of Macross the first to come out, which will only be published after a few recopilatory tomes are released in Japan.

In the meantime, if I have the oportunity of a sneak preview at the actual manga, I'll take it.

Be that as it may, I'd strongly suggest you "trade" materials in the privacy of a PM or directly through e-mail.

Many of us believe on occasion that Japanese fans and possibly even employees of Satellite or BW may peruse these boards to see what the Western fans are up to and we don't want to give the impression that this site is a clearing house for non-purchased Macross materials.

We all care too much about supporting future Macross productions to take bread and butter out of the mouths of the franchise owners or their license holders.

My example with the Blu-Ray was to show that they would not have to actually make a North American release as long as proper English subs were applied, North America would order from Japan and screw Harmony Gold. Just look at all the people who bought them without subs..Imagine if they were subbed.

I tend to agree with you regarding making Blurays Western friendly, however if we ever wish to see such accomodation, we must have the moral authority to be able to ask as paying customers, not pirates.... Yar?

[frothymug]

This is the reason that's keeping me from buying the Blu-rays and DVDs.

What I don't get is that we constantly see explanations as to why they simply won't put freakin' English subtitles on their releases. Is it because they can't market to the US? Is it because it's too expensive and prohibitive because the English-speaking market isn't there to pay for it?

I call BS on that. When I go to the DVD store and look through their anime section for something that might catch my eye, I see some of the dumbest shows in DVD form on the shelf. Someone thought it would be a good investment to import and DUB some crappy show that nobody's ever heard of and probably never will. Why? Because they're crap! Why do they keep doing it over and over? Because they make money! I can't imagine how a show that's as popular in Japan as it is right now can't do well in the US, where there's already a fairly well-established fanbase.

*sigh* I didn't mean to go on a rant there, but it's frustrating to feel like we're all having to work hard just to BE fans of this franchise. Yes, I understand that HG stands in the way. They had good foresight to work that out in the deal decades ago, and I don't fault them (too much) for trying to cling to their cash cow like a drowning man. All we ask for is a little consideration for the extra work we go through to enjoy a great product.

[Renato]

This is the reason that's keeping me from buying the Blu-rays and DVDs.

What I don't get is that we constantly see explanations as to why they simply won't put freakin' English subtitles on their releases. Is it because they can't market to the US? Is it because it's too expensive and prohibitive because the English-speaking market isn't there to pay for it?

I call BS on that. When I go to the DVD store and look through their anime section for something that might catch my eye, I see some of the dumbest shows in DVD form on the shelf. Someone thought it would be a good investment to import and DUB some crappy show that nobody's ever heard of and probably never will. Why? Because they're crap! Why do they keep doing it over and over? Because they make money! I can't imagine how a show that's as popular in Japan as it is right now can't do well in the US, where there's already a fairly well-established fanbase.

Your first and second paragraph do not really follow logically. In the first, "they" supposedly refers to BigWest and/or Bandai Visual, I assume. In answer to your question, I would say, yes, it is probably considered cost-prohibitive, by the way. But the second paragraph of you "calling BS" on that because "they make money" even on crappy dubs does not follow because "they" (the people making money) in this case are the ones distributing abroad.

I agree that Bandai Visual SHOULD put English subs on their releases, thus creating the only official English edition of Macross F in existence. However, for that to actually happen, you need a lot of data analysis and persuasion.

EDIT -- Dammit, EXO. Okay, BUY Macross the first!! END OF LINE...

Edited February 21, 2011 by Renato

[EXO]

OK. Thanks on everyone's input on rights and legalities. For further discussions on the subject please place your comments on this thread: http://www.macrosswo...howtopic=33067. No harm, no foul. Mostly because I'm too lazy to go back and read.

Back to the subject at hand.

EDIT -- Dammit, EXO. Okay, BUY Macross the first!! END OF LINE...

Here, I'll move it after your post.

[sketchley]

I have, but it's not the same trusting a review than taking a look at the manga in a bookstore or magazine stand and have a _preview_ with your own eyes of the material and see if you're actually interested in it.

Ah... but this is where the shopping experience in Japan and overseas converges.

Nowadays, many bookstores are shrink-wrapping manga-magazines and tankōbon to prevent tachiyomi. Sure, some of the big stores don't; but for many of us, the train ride to the nearest Kinokuniya or Junkudo to get a free look costs more than buying it at the local bookstore.

Hopefully this post won't run afoul with Exo, as it's not about rights and legalities.

[The_WOZ]

@sketchley: Ah that sucks, I didn't know recopilatory tomes were shrik-wrapped too. To be honest, it have been many years since I was in a comicbook store (there is none were I live) and back then only the expensive, imported items were shrink-wrapped; local editions were available to browse. But now I realise maybe those mangas were already shrink-wrapped "in origin".

@Zinjo: Please be assured that I never have and never will ask for "trading" material, neither in public nor via PM or e-mail. I understand and support the new policy about not posting download links for ongoing publications, but you have to accept that is a big contrast to the old Macrossworld dynamics from before Macross F. Times changes, but for some, old habits die hard.

What I'm trying to say is that incidents like this, where someone ask for material and then another one, out of habit, post download links to said material, will keep happening for quite some time. Until everybody is made clear of the new ways.

[Zinjo]

@Zinjo: Please be assured that I never have and never will ask for "trading" material, neither in public nor via PM or e-mail. I understand and support the new policy about not posting download links for ongoing publications, but you have to accept that is a big contrast to the old Macrossworld dynamics from before Macross F. Times changes, but for some, old habits die hard.

What I'm trying to say is that incidents like this, where someone ask for material and then another one, out of habit, post download links to said material, will keep happening for quite some time. Until everybody is made clear of the new ways.

What's not done in a public forum is simply not seen....

Many things are done via PM here, which maintains the integrity of the public face of site...

[CrazyMartian]

Could you recommend some places that carry the tankoubon? Amazon Japan is kind of cost prohibitive for me since I live in Mexico. The last time I bought a book from them, the mail charges ended costing more than the book itself.

I'd like to support the franchise like I have done with the games since Macross M3 on the Dreamcast.

Edited February 21, 2011 by CrazyMartian

[EXO]

How many people can't find this amazing book? For an extra dollar or two I'd go get a subscription at Kinukuniya. Maybe I can get mine for free . I'm sure other people here would do it and maybe we can somehow make a dent in making the book more successful. Send me a PM and maybe it'll be worth the trouble. I'd have to go to kinokuniya and see how many I can put on hold also.

[azrael]

How many people can't find this amazing book? For an extra dollar or two I'd go get a subscription at Kinukuniya. Maybe I can get mine for free . I'm sure other people here would do it and maybe we can somehow make a dent in making the book more successful. Send me a PM and maybe it'll be worth the trouble. I'd have to go to kinokuniya and see how many I can put on hold also.

Or for that matter, how about talking to nanoplasm about a group-buy for the publication? He's done it for lots of books, toys, and magazines. If there's enough people, I'm sure he'll consider posting a group-buy in the For-Sale section as he has previously. He has done for for various Macross Ace issues. Why not take advantage of it?

[Jasonc]

Can someone please help me to understand what the issue we are discussing here is? Are we talking about a moral debate of buying the official copy versus a scanlation, or politics of current book selling trends, or something else? I haven't been on this thread in awhile, and it seems like a little of all this is running into each other. I'm all for supporting the original product, even if I don't read Japanese. To me, I enjoy supporting a franchise that's given a lot of great product, stuff I grew up with. If people here aren't going to buy items because it's not in english, that's one's choice, but with that token, I'd almost say, don't demand that they make accomodations for you. English is a secondary market, and wishing, hoping, and demanding isn't going to show product viability in a secondary market. The only figures the Japanese companies like Satelite, BW, and Yamato can go off of, are sketchy sales figures, and informed guesstimations on people who don't buy anything, but maybe would if english was added to their products. Those are some of the things I'm trying to bring to the table to help, but it's a long road. It's also not as easy as just having one person decide to make these decisions. I won't go into details, cause we probably know most of it already, but sometimes to make your voice heard, you gotta put up the $. It's not like you're getting the raw end of the deal either. You get official Macross product.

[BChoinski]

For my specific case, I can't read Japanese, so while I would enjoy the art, I would prefer to have art and english text to go with it. While I do search the net for english scanlations, I would most certainly be there at Barnes & Nobles to pick up an english book form if it were available.

In my case, I want it, and am willing to pay for it, but not unless I can get something I can fully enjoy and understand. I'll put up with online scans, but only as a stop-gap for having the actual thing in my hands from the original creators in a language I can read.

[Zinjo]

For my specific case, I can't read Japanese, so while I would enjoy the art, I would prefer to have art and english text to go with it. While I do search the net for english scanlations, I would most certainly be there at Barnes & Nobles to pick up an english book form if it were available.

In my case, I want it, and am willing to pay for it, but not unless I can get something I can fully enjoy and understand. I'll put up with online scans, but only as a stop-gap for having the actual thing in my hands from the original creators in a language I can read.

Well why "buy" it if it's up on the web for "FREE".

It's a double edged sword you are playing with.

You won't support the franchise as a consumer UNTIL you get what you want....

Sounds more like an excuse NOT to support the merchandise and by extension the franchise, since merch is what pays for the anime....

As I've already said you can't go to BW and say "I will buy IF you do what I want", but you can say "I've bought the Japanese version, please provide an English version" and if enough Western fans tell them this, they will see the market and do the manga.

Scanlations privately shared between members with strict understandings about web publishing is one thing. To post it for all to grab because you need some sort of ego boo, is quite another. That is the risk the community's translators are trying to avoid.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Zinjo

[anime52k8]

As I've already said you can't go to BW and say "I will buy IF you do what I want", but you can say "I've bought the Japanese version, please provide an English version" and if enough Western fans tell them this, they will see the market and do the manga.

frankly, this is the dumbest logic I've ever heard. As a customer, saying "I'll give you my money if and only if you provide the goods or survives I want" is the only way you get a company to listen to you. Throwing money blindly at them like sheep and then asking for something better will get you no where. The company in question doesn't give a sh*t what you want once they've made a profit off you.

I'll support a company/product when it meets my needs. A book that I can't read does not meet my needs so I don't support it, simple as that.

:edit:

and I'm not demanding that people post up free scanlations or whatever, I'm just say that I have no interest in a book I can't read and will just choose not to read it.

Edited February 27, 2011 by anime52k8

[sketchley]

On the one hand, anime 52k8, you're logic is valid, however are we at the point where the companies in question will listen to their non-Japanese customers? Can customers even be called customers if the customer is not purchasing anything and is waiting for the company to provide a service?

The million dollar question is: are these companies aware of the non-Japanese markets, and if so do they perceive that there is enough demand in the markets for content dedicated exclusively for said markets?

[Bri]

On the one hand, anime 52k8, you're logic is valid, however are we at the point where the companies in question will listen to their non-Japanese customers? Can customers even be called customers if the customer is not purchasing anything and is waiting for the company to provide a service?

The million dollar question is: are these companies aware of the non-Japanese markets, and if so do they perceive that there is enough demand in the markets for content dedicated exclusively for said markets?

Given the thousands of different manga titles that get published abroad, including less popular mecha-titles than Macross, Japanese companies (at least the publishers) are well aware of the international markets. However, foreign-language-editions of manga is the domain of local publishers in their home markets, not that of Japanese publishers. Petitioning Kadokawa (or BW) to make an exception for Macross the First alone doesn't seem very realistic, even if they would be willing to help out foreign fans.

As long as the legal issues hang over Macross, it won't be licensed. In this case customer demand abroad simply cannot be met. So it's simply the Japanese version or nothing.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Bri

[Gubaba]

For my specific case, I can't read Japanese, so while I would enjoy the art, I would prefer to have art and english text to go with it. While I do search the net for english scanlations, I would most certainly be there at Barnes & Nobles to pick up an english book form if it were available.

In my case, I want it, and am willing to pay for it, but not unless I can get something I can fully enjoy and understand. I'll put up with online scans, but only as a stop-gap for having the actual thing in my hands from the original creators in a language I can read.

I can understand this if you're talking about some other comic...but this is Macross the First. You've seen SDF Macross, haven't you? If so, you know most of the dialogue from Vol. 1 already, and while the details differ in Vol. 2, the overall story doesn't.

Anyone tempted to check the book out already knows the plot. So the whole "I can't read it" argument doesn't really wash with me.

[Talos]

Given the thousands of different manga titles that get published abroad, including less popular mecha-titles than Macross, Japanese companies (at least the publishers) are well aware of the international markets. However, foreign-language-editions of manga is the domain of local publishers in their home markets, not that of Japanese publishers. Petitioning Kadokawa (or BW) to make an exception for Macross the First alone doesn't seem very realistic, even if they would be willing to help out foreign fans.

As long as the legal issues hang over Macross, it won't be licensed. In this case customer demand abroad simply cannot be met. So it's simply the Japanese version or nothing.

You're absolutely right. There isn't going to be an English-language edition no matter how many copies we Macross World members buy. The market is far too small for a publisher like Tokyopop to try and bring it over. The legal fees alone would cost a bundle and it would not be worth the payoff.

So the whole "I can't read it" argument doesn't really wash with me.

Let me preface this by saying that this is not a personal attack on your or anyone else on the board. I'm just quoting your post since it was the latest one and has a succinct part I can quote easily.

I love the community and everyone here. One of the things that has irritated me, though, was the comments that a person should learn Japanese to read something like Macross the First. Not everyone has the time, ability, money, or opportunity to learn Japanese. Even if they did, it takes a while until you can read even a basic manga with furigana like MtF. The posts telling people they have to if they want to read it stray too close to a bit of an elitist tone for my tastes since they're basically telling the other poster that he or she isn't good enough to read it since he or she doesn't speak that language.

I am not advocating scanlations or any other side in the argument, I am simply stating my viewpoint . I've bought every issue of Macross Ace and the Macross the First tankoubon that have been released and will continue to until they both finish. I can read them just fine. Would I like an English edition to read? You bet I would. Unfortunately, since one from an official publisher isn't going to be forthcoming, I would happily read English-language scanlations as well, alongside my paper copies.

Speaking of scans and thinking back to the gentleman's agreement, Chronicle is finished being published....

[Gubaba]

Let me preface this by saying that this is not a personal attack on your or anyone else on the board. I'm just quoting your post since it was the latest one and has a succinct part I can quote easily.

I love the community and everyone here. One of the things that has irritated me, though, was the comments that a person should learn Japanese to read something like Macross the First. Not everyone has the time, ability, money, or opportunity to learn Japanese. Even if they did, it takes a while until you can read even a basic manga with furigana like MtF. The posts telling people they have to if they want to read it stray too close to a bit of an elitist tone for my tastes since they're basically telling the other poster that he or she isn't good enough to read it since he or she doesn't speak that language.

That isn't what I meant though. Like, at all.

If you watch the first few episodes of SDFM TV, you know pretty much EXACTLY what happens in Macross the First. You don't HAVE to read the words in order to understand what's going on. Just watch the show, and then look at the pictures in the book. Pretty much all of us here know the story by heart anyway.

So yeah, if weren't talking about, I dunno, Macross 7 Trash or something...then yes, I can understand not wanting to buy it if it's not in English...but Macross the First...?

[Talos]

That isn't what I meant though. Like, at all.

If you watch the first few episodes of SDFM TV, you know pretty much EXACTLY what happens in Macross the First. You don't HAVE to read the words in order to understand what's going on. Just watch the show, and then look at the pictures in the book. Pretty much all of us here know the story by heart anyway.

So yeah, if weren't talking about, I dunno, Macross 7 Trash or something...then yes, I can understand not wanting to buy it if it's not in English...but Macross the First...?

Which is totally why we can understand who that big, blonde guy Minmay is hanging around with, who the chick in uniform with fishnet stockings is, and why poor Hyperion got destroyed?

Knowing the story is one thing, but it really helps to be able to read the dialogue.

[Gubaba]

Which is totally why we can understand who that big, blonde guy Minmay is hanging around with, who the chick in uniform with fishnet stockings is, and why poor Hyperion got destroyed?

Knowing the story is one thing, but it really helps to be able to read the dialogue.

Yeah, it would...but everyone knows what the ship is that crashes on earth, why its gun fires at the aliens, who all the main characters are...

Look, my Japanese is FAR from fluent. It takes me hours and HOURS even to read something like Macross the First. Thus, I generally just look through it. I haven't really read anything besides the first book and the beginning of the second. And yet...I can follow the story, because I already know it.

Anyone else should be able to do the same. If they get cnfused, they can ask here in this thread, and people will answer them.

It's not ideal, but it works.

[ichido reichan]

That isn't what I meant though. Like, at all.

If you watch the first few episodes of SDFM TV, you know pretty much EXACTLY what happens in Macross the First. You don't HAVE to read the words in order to understand what's going on. Just watch the show, and then look at the pictures in the book. Pretty much all of us here know the story by heart anyway.

So yeah, if weren't talking about, I dunno, Macross 7 Trash or something...then yes, I can understand not wanting to buy it if it's not in English...but Macross the First...?

And be as it may, I am working on the second, not the first...THE SECOND volume of Macross the first as we speak, the morals of this board does not and have never influenced anyone to obtain whatever they wanted to begin with, call it pirate effort or not, we should not support any macross comic effort because is not intended for us (the occidental audiences) to begin with, and F*** the japanese economy!! they have taken plenty of money of merchandise out of me, they want my money, they gotta print the english book IN JAPAN, to get me GOOOLD!!, otherwise, Im doing it myself!.

Do you care if "Friends" or "Seinfeld" is pirated in Osaka or Kyushyuu? Imagine your random japanese guy here

Ohh!! we shall not take seinfeld-san hard earned money by copying his work, seinfeld may not come out anymore!!"

Exactly, they don't give a flying YF-21 (AKA a piece of SH*t) because they don't care, if they were to care, they would have licensed it, Harmony gold care cause is robotech, but Harmony gold has worldwide robotech rights but they do not have designs rights beyond the actual tv show, that's why MACROSS THE FIRST will NEVER, NEVER, NEEVEEERR!! be licensed outside Japan.

And mind you, THE FIRST is a new legend, anticipating the re-encounter of the SDF-1 that will return with Minmay, Hikaru Ichijo and all the crew ALIVE (minus Roy 'nuff said) so that's why is there in place.

and I once offered a subscription based project cause I need money, not for me, for the translators since you don't work for me for free, why someone else should work free for you?

But I will be releasing for my private group only my volumes of MACROSS THE FIRST, not cause I wanna protect the rights of the authors, is because I don't wanna give the cheapazees (misspelled intentionally) the satisfaction of reading it if they haven't paid a penny, well you guys got to enjoy MYLENE BEAT done by me so that's all you get.

[anime52k8]

Yeah, it would...but everyone knows what the ship is that crashes on earth, why its gun fires at the aliens, who all the main characters are...

Look, my Japanese is FAR from fluent. It takes me hours and HOURS even to read something like Macross the First. Thus, I generally just look through it. I haven't really read anything besides the first book and the beginning of the second. And yet...I can follow the story, because I already know it.

Anyone else should be able to do the same. If they get cnfused, they can ask here in this thread, and people will answer them.

It's not ideal, but it works.

That's another thing, If it's so similar to SDF:M that you can just look at the pictures and know whats going on, what's the point of getting it at all when I can just watch SDF:M again?

[Gubaba]

That's another thing, If it's so similar to SDF:M that you can just look at the pictures and know whats going on, what's the point of getting it at all when I can just watch SDF:M again?

Good point. The updated art is really the selling point of Macross the First. If you want to see that, it's worth it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Anyone tempted to check the book out already knows the plot. So the whole "I can't read it" argument doesn't really wash with me.

Okay, since Talos is too nice to say it... I'll say it. You're not going to like what I say, but hey, that's your hard boo-hoo.

Telling someone who's interested in Macross the First to go buy a copy and then go teach himself the Japanese language is beyond asinine. You know as well as I do that with Harmony Gold actively preventing Macross fans outside Japan from gaining access to Macross shows, there would be no way for the people who don't have the time, the money, or the ability to learn a second language to enjoy Macross at all. Were it not for fansubs, most of the people on this site would've never been able to see DYRL, FB2012, 7, Zero, or Frontier. Hell, even you've done fansubs before... 'cept what you're doing is infinitely worse (and far less legal) than what you're griping about since you're fansubbing one of the few shows that IS available outside Japan. Were it not for scans and fan translators, we wouldn't have resources like the Macross Compendium or the Macross Mecha Manual, which sketchley hotlinks rather a lot of images for his own site from, and most fans would never have seen or read a single page of Macross 7 Trash or Macross Dynamite 7: Mylene Beat...

Macross's fandom outside Japan is built on the idea that the fans who can read and speak Japanese making the shows and manga and magazine articles accessible to the fans who can't. Without that, most of us wouldn't be here. Without that, this site almost certainly wouldn't exist. Would these people support the franchise and buy a copy if they had any legitimate way to get it in a language they can understand? You bet they would. Saying that you don't want to distribute scans or translations while a publication is in progress is one thing, and I can say that I support that to a certain extent... but when you start using it as an excuse to justify a condescending attitude, I think you've crossed a line.

If someone asks you for scans, then just say "I'm sorry, but I don't do scans" and leave it at that.

[Gubaba]

Okay, since Talos is too nice to say it... I'll say it. You're not going to like what I say, but hey, that's your hard boo-hoo.

Telling someone who's interested in Macross the First to go buy a copy and then go teach himself the Japanese language is beyond asinine.\

Learn to read, dude. I didn't say that, and I didn't imply it.

[Talos]

Learn to read, dude. I didn't say that, and I didn't imply it.

I think he was referencing the conversation you and a few others had back on page 5 of this thread, that's all.

[Gubaba]

I think he was referencing the conversation you and a few others had back on page 5 of this thread, that's all.

But I've NEVER made that point.

Look, I've been studying Japanese a long time, and I'm not fluent by any stretch yet. I would never ask anyone else to do the same.

If you're going to get on my case about something, please get on my case about an opinion I actually hold.

[Talos]

But I've NEVER made that point.

Look, I've been studying Japanese a long time, and I'm not fluent by any stretch yet. I would never ask anyone else to do the same.

If you're going to get on my case about something, please get on my case about an opinion I actually hold.

I didn't say you did. I was responding to posts by sketchley and Tochiro when I posted earlier today. I only quoted your's because it was the latest post before mine and offered a neat summary to use. That being:

So the whole "I can't read it" argument doesn't really wash with me.

That being said, I think that getting more fans exposed to Macross can only be a good thing. They aren't going to put the effort into learning Japanese to read a manga and only the hardcore fans are going to pick up a raw manga just to look at the pretty pictures.

[Gubaba]

I didn't say you did. I was responding to posts by sketchley and Tochiro when I posted earlier today. I only quoted your's because it was the latest post before mine and offered a neat summary to use. That being:

Again, if you're going to quote me to respond to someone else's point as though it were mine, you probably make that clearer. Or better yet, quote the person you're disagreeing with, and respond to their point.

EDIT: Look back here, for example: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=31952&view=findpost&p=890202

There I am, disagreeing with Tochiro. So you use my post as though it supports Tochiro's point...? What kind of sense does that make?

Edited February 28, 2011 by Gubaba

[Seto Kaiba]

Learn to read, dude. I didn't say that, and I didn't imply it.

Honestly, you kinda are... you did say that you don't consider being unable to read the book a valid excuse from fans who are asking/looking for scanalations. Only the most die-hard Macross fans would buy a book they can't even read just to to look at the pictures, and like as not Macross the First has changed a bit from the TV series it was based on. What I'm saying, and what you seem to have missed, is this attitude is counterproductive to the growth of the fandom and the franchise. If we didn't have the helpful fans translating Macross stuff for the fans who ordinarily wouldn't be able to read or understand it, we wouldn't have the fandom at all. The only choices you're positing here are buying it only to look at the pictures, which isn't going to sell many copies, or buying it and teaching yourself the language so you know what's going on.

Tell me, which is more likely to cause Macross's owners to say "Gee, there's a big market out here we're missing out on, maybe we should try to exploit it instead"? The ten people who don't speak Japanese buying Macross the First just to look at the pretty pictures, or ten thousand people reading an unofficial scanalation of Macross the First in English and discussing it energetically on forums and chatrooms?

Edited February 28, 2011 by Seto Kaiba

[frothymug]

Well, before a mod comes in and sets the subject back on track, I just want to say that I think it's awesome that many of the members of the board here contribute so much of their free time to make the Macross franchise more-readily available to the rest of us. By "readily-available", I mean that they create supplementary guides that help us better-understand the material, not spread copies of an intellectual property.

Also, I think it's awesome that many of these members are willing to pay a HIGHER premium for media and merchandise than usual, simply because they live in the United States or whatever wonderful country they live in, which is outside of Japan (which is also a wonderful country). A product is only worth what its purchaser is willing to pay for it. This famous quote says a lot about the importance they put in the franchise.

I think it's great to have a place where I can come to discuss all things Macross with other members who are devoted to the dissemination of Macross fandom. I thought I was a big fan of the series until I found this forum last year. Those of you who have been fans for so long and have made it a point to buy every piece of merch they can get their hands on, I salute your devotion. I only envy the fact that you guys have the means to financially support your fandom.

Even you guys who advocate against illegal pirating have looked the other way when we were posting links download copies to the first Frontier movie. Sometimes, you guys do get elitist attitudes over the pirating thing, and sometimes it's not that important to enforce. If you didn't, it would probably run rampant all over this board. So, for those of you who are on both sides of the issue, I'd just appreciate that at least some people care enough to curb that detrimental behavior. Not all people who download copies are worthless parasites; I'm one of them. However, I will definitely spend my scarce income to support the franchise at every opportunity. Just because I don't have much money to spend and I cannot understand the language, doesn't make pirating "okay", though. Let's not get delusional.

[Gubaba]

Honestly, you kinda are... you did say that you don't consider being unable to read the book a valid excuse from fans who are asking/looking for scanalations. Only the most die-hard Macross fans would buy a book they can't even read just to to look at the pictures, and like as not Macross the First has changed a bit from the TV series it was based on. What I'm saying, and what you seem to have missed, is this attitude is counterproductive to the growth of the fandom and the franchise. If we didn't have the helpful fans translating Macross stuff for the fans who ordinarily wouldn't be able to read or understand it, we wouldn't have the fandom at all. The only choices you're positing here are buying it only to look at the pictures, which isn't going to sell many copies, or buying it and teaching yourself the language so you know what's going on.

Tell me, which is more likely to cause Macross's owners to say "Gee, there's a big market out here we're missing out on, maybe we should try to exploit it instead"? The ten people who don't speak Japanese buying Macross the First just to look at the pretty pictures, or ten thousand people reading an unofficial scanalation of Macross the First in English and discussing it energetically on forums and chatrooms?

Again, please learn to read:

Enhhh...that's going to far, I think. Someone shouldn't have to learn a whole new language just because they want to read a comic. But by the same token, if someone's waiting for someone ELSE to do all the work, and do it fast, well, and free...then that person has no right to complain if it doesn't get done.

I don't really see how saying "You shouldn't have to learn a whole new language" is implying "you should have to learn a whole new language."

All I'm saying is, if you've seen Macross, then Macross the First is pretty easy to understand, even if you don't speak Japanese. This is not a controversial position.

If you want to take my words out of context to create a straw man to bash, at least have the decency to admit that that's what you're doing.

If you want to attack Tochiro and Sketchley for what they've said, then leave me out of it.

Fair enough?

[Talos]

Well, before a mod comes in and sets the subject back on track, I just want to say that I think it's awesome that many of the members of the board here contribute so much of their free time to make the Macross franchise more-readily available to the rest of us. By "readily-available", I mean that they create supplementary guides that help us better-understand the material, not spread copies of an intellectual property.

Also, I think it's awesome that many of these members are willing to pay a HIGHER premium for media and merchandise than usual, simply because they live in the United States or whatever wonderful country they live in, which is outside of Japan (which is also a wonderful country). A product is only worth what its purchaser is willing to pay for it. This famous quote says a lot about the importance they put in the franchise.

I think it's great to have a place where I can come to discuss all things Macross with other members who are devoted to the dissemination of Macross fandom. I thought I was a big fan of the series until I found this forum last year. Those of you who have been fans for so long and have made it a point to buy every piece of merch they can get their hands on, I salute your devotion. I only envy the fact that you guys have the means to financially support your fandom.

Even you guys who advocate against illegal pirating have looked the other way when we were posting links download copies to the first Frontier movie. Sometimes, you guys do get elitist attitudes over the pirating thing, and sometimes it's not that important to enforce. If you didn't, it would probably run rampant all over this board. So, for those of you who are on both sides of the issue, I'd just appreciate that at least some people care enough to curb that detrimental behavior. Not all people who download copies are worthless parasites; I'm one of them. However, I will definitely spend my scarce income to support the franchise at every opportunity. Just because I don't have much money to spend and I cannot understand the language, doesn't make pirating "okay", though. Let's not get delusional.

Agreed.

Again, please learn to read:

I don't really see how saying "You shouldn't have to learn a whole new language" is implying "you should have to learn a whole new language."

All I'm saying is, if you've seen Macross, then Macross the First is pretty easy to understand, even if you don't speak Japanese. This is not a controversial position.

If you want to take my words out of context to create a straw man to bash, at least have the decency to admit that that's what you're doing.

If you want to attack Tochiro and Sketchley for what they've said, then leave me out of it.

Fair enough?

Your last comment does go against that, though, but I wasn't attacking you in the post (as I even said in it). I was quoting what you said as a generalized thing to react to. When I wrote the post I didn't remember exactly who-said-what and didn't look back to find out until you posted that you never said that. Which is true, back there you didn't.

Like Frothymug said, it's the elitist attitude that some of the posts come off as that bothers me. I have all of Macross the First and Macross Ace, I'm doing my part to support them, but a nicely-done, well-edited scanlation on my computer would be a wonderful thing to have too. Were it available in English in the US you could bet anything that I would buy a copy the first day it came out. I don't advocate piracy, but in a situation like this it is the only way for the average fan to get access to Macross. I can't think of how many shows or manga I was exposed to like that. It's one reason I now have a stack of Patlabor DVDs, artbooks (mostly This is Animation and B-Club), and figures... That's not even getting into my Cyber Formula and Macross ones either.