Kit collectors vs Kit builders

[Chas]

So some of you may already be aware of my desdain for the kit collectors out there, those bottom feeding, hobby kit speculators who never build anything and serve only to drive the price of older kits through the roof; you know the ones who pay exorbitant prices for older kits only to hold on to them and re-sell 'em for even more later on. Well, while I have not sold many kits (don't have too big of a stash) I have passed a couple on and I was always concerned that the kit was going to someone who had every intension of someday (if not right away) building it. Well I finally found away to do it, now you have to realise - I don't look to make a killing on the sales, I just want a fair price (if I recoup the cost great, if I get a little less, well Meh whaddya gonna do?). Anyway So this is my idea.

Advertise the kit without the box! then when a buyer expresses interest I tell them the kit comes with the box (no change in price).

So what do you folks think? Is this a concern you have had when selling kits? Do you care who buys it, or is getting as much $$ as you can more important? Do you have any schemes of your own to defeat the kit collectors?

Edited November 24, 2009 by Chas

[Graham]

Not all kit collectors are speculators and it's unfair of you to lump them all together in the same group.

I know several kit collectors, including Shawn, who collect the kits, but have no time or inclanation to build them. However, on the other hand they also have no plan ever to sell them.

Some people just like to collect the unbuilt kits.

Graham

[Zinjo]

Not all kit collectors are speculators and it's unfair of you to lump them all together in the same group.

I know several kit collectors, including Shawn, who collect the kits, but have no time or inclanation to build them. However, on the other hand they also have no plan ever to sell them.

Some people just like to collect the unbuilt kits.

Graham

I understand that.

It's kind of like eventually they'll be one of the few to have a pristine unbuilt vintage kit...

[Chas]

Well I never even thought of that . . . I guess I can understand it though, but you mean even after retirement they have NO intention of EVER building them? ( while my brain understands the words my heart cannot understand the feeling.) Huh! Oh well learn somethin' new I guess.

So let's make the appropo changes.

Firstly, appologies to those kit collectors who do not speculate (hadn't considered you in the ontology of the universe)

Secondly, everyone please disregard the ref. to Kit-collectors and read only as kit speculators.

Thank you.

Continue please.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Chas

[thegunny]

Hmm, interesting so in your ideal world people are not allowed to buy and sell model kits for a profit

So where are you going to buy your models from, as I'm sure the various retailers are not going go "Oh here comes Chas we better sell him our models at a loss otherwise we'll be branded scum of the earth speculators"

And just for the record I collect far more models than I make with an emphasise on short run resin kits that will, over time be worth far more than I paid for them. Eventually they will be sold (nothing lasts forever) and with the money I make I'll be sure to have an extra cray or two as I'm feeding off the bottom.

Edited November 24, 2009 by thegunny

[VFTF1]

I would like to take this chance to defend kit speculators, since I am an avid defender of the phenomena of free exchange of goods and services, and one of the aspects of this phenomena is speculation.

First of all, remember please that the value of all goods and services is purely subjective and effectively maleable depending on a variety of factors. There is no guarantee that by "hoarding" kits you will ever get a return on your investment, let alone see some gargantuan profits. Second of all, in the case of ebay sellers and the like, you need to keep in mind that often times it is the market that dictates the supremely high prices we sometimes see on some collectables.

Now, think back to when old Valkyrie used to sell for thousands of Dollars, or old original G1 Transformers for hundreds.

That was rampant speculation and 'hoarding' and trying to get as much money as possible out of people.

But the ONLY reason it was possible was because supply was way smaller than demand.

And guess what happened?

What happened was that Hasbro woke up from its' slumber of the late 80s, early 90s and started to produce Transformers and take their franchise seriously. What happened was that Yamato got into making Macross toys that we all now love.

Why did it happen?

Certainly it had a tad bit to do with all of the profits that were being made in a market where the demand far outweighed the supply.

Profits always serve as a signal to potential investors that a certain venue is beneficial to take.

The high profit margins that were created in the short range by speculators hording a finite supply in view of a larger and growing demand served as a signal that there was a big market for nostalgia products and for anime related goods.

The dynamic is no different in the model kit business.

If a model kit is popular enough - it will get reissued. However, more than likely, given the specific nature of the model kit industry, it will get an upgrade.

In the meantime nobody is forcing anybody to bid up the prices of pre-existing, rare kits.

The speculators serve a useful social function, contrary to what people may think. Namely: it is THEY who take the initial risk on themselves to see whether or not something is profitable in the long run.

For every speculator who makes a one time short term big profit from some kit or other collectible, there are ten speculators who sustain losses and end up just having a bunch of crap that nobody wants sitting around that economic circumstances force them to give away at a loss.

But if not for the speculators - companies would never have a good inclination of what is really really popular out there - and of what to invest in in terms of future production. Speculation gives us a window into how strong demand for a certain item is. Being able to check out the "insane" prices that some things on ebay go for is a great way to gage consumer demand in real terms of just how high an interest there is in something.

Naturally the resentment against speculators has nothing to do with justice, nor does it have anything to do with wanting people to have kits to build rather than to hold.

No - the resentment against speculators is all about people wanting to get something that doesn't belong to them in return for a lower price than it is being offered for.

What these people fail to grasp is that whenever a good is out of the price range of a vast majority of folks who nevertheless clamor for it - then this is an incentive for companies to come along and increase supply and make the good affordable for all the people who want it.

Without the speculators, there would be no incentive to do this and products that are out of the financial reach of "regular folks" would remain so - forever.

Finally - on a per-unit basis, there is absolutely no marginal utility derived or lost if a kit gets built, doesn't get built, gets eaten, or whatever. It doesn't matter. Sometimes a kit breaks when someone is building it, sometimes a kit is faulty. People acquire goods and do different things with them; kits included.

Hm...what else?

Well - to wrap it up: I don't see a point in scheming to defeat kit collectors/speculators. Why would you wat to waste your time doing that? If the kit is very popular and selling very well, it will get another production run. If it's not, but YOU just like it very much and yet its' price goes up because there's just enough people to drive up the price but not enough to make it worth producing again... well - tough. It happens.

But in general, fighting speculators is counterproductive IMO.

Pete

[ultimateone]

If there's money to be made by doing something, regardless of what it is, some one will be there to do it. You can call it speculating, or you can just say it's providing a service. If I want Kit X, and you had the foresight, capital and space to buy and store the kit for however many years, then I will gladly pay you for your time and effort for the chance to own something I really want. If your price is unfair, then I will sit patiently until another comes up for sale, or an alternative is produced.

[KOG Water Dragon]

I buy a lot of kits... more than I can build. I get them because I think they're cool, and because I'd LIKE to build them... eventually. I know I can't build them all... I'll eventually have to pick and choose which ones I actually finish. But I buy the kits because I like to know I can then build them later, if I wish, and not have to track down the kit for an exhorbitant price.

If you were to look at my stacks of unbuilt kits, you'd probably call me a collector... but I don't intend to resell the kits. Not unless forced to by some sort of negative life circumstance.

[Chas]

Well then, I guess I've been told.

Upon reflection, I suppose my desdain comes from the fact that I like to build kits, and a fair number of the kits I like happen to be older kits, of which there are a limited number. I dunno I guess I'm just naive to get upset at the fact that many of those kits end up in the hands of people who have no intention or desire to ever build them and simply see them as an investment and a source of potential profit. I mean fundimentally, in the grand scheme of things, of course there is nothing - capital W - Wrong with that, but on the rare occasion that I do decide to sell a kit I like to see that it goes to someone who wants to actually build it. Someone who will get the enoyment out of it that I would.

It's not really a case of me being pissed simply 'cus someone else got the thing I wanted, or someone else could afford to pay the high price that I couldn't, that's fine that doesn't burn me, if that person is going to build it. What burns me is if they got it and the thought of actually buliding it completely ruled out and all they see is just a source of potential profit.

You see, I think what it comes down to is that for me, the value of the kit is in the pleasure I get from the act of building it and against that it becomes easy for me to invalidate the possible pleasure someone gets from turning a profit from speculating. I just see that as such a loss. Against the pleasure I get from building a kit the possible pleasure someone else could get from speculating with that kit just pales. That I guess is because I'm just not built that way. I suppose fundimentally I'm not a Capitalist.

Part of it also is that speculating has very little to do with the actual kit, it could be anything really, the kit is simply a means to an end. Whereas the pleasure I get from building is all about the specific kit being built.

Anyway that's just how I see it.

Continue if you will.

Oh and KOG - no My initial post was not directed at people who have large collections of unbuilt kits. It was directed at those individuals who buy kits for the express purpose of not building them, but only as a source of potential profit. Hence the trem speculators.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Chas

[Vifam7]

I suppose kit speculating could become a problem if it becomes rampant. Like what happened to comic books. But I don't see that ever happening to model kits (at least I hope not).

Edited November 24, 2009 by Vifam7

[Ranger565]

You can always find a good deal on a Model kit around, Not just one person sell them. Trust me. You can find good deals. You just have to wait and be patient. I know at least 10 Macross sellers Other then Vintage_Macross on Ebay that No longer Have their stores. They sold the 1/100 Kits for over 50 bucks. And Vintage_Macross never sold them for that price. You can find his old kits on Ebay From time to time and he sells the Spartin and Defender the most fro 29.99. Thats a good price for a vintage kit. Many of the Japanese sellers are also NO longer selling, Why? They were too expensive, no one bought their kits, so they gave up. Either they paid to much for the kit or They were trying to scalp people. You can always find a kit thats cheeper someplace else. Even some of the guys selling on here are WAY to expensive. Sorry to offend but they are.

Carl

[captain america]

**Author's own opinion. No value assured, no liability assumed, does not constitute legal advice.**

People can do whatever they want with their property, whether that entails reselling it (or at least trying) at an exorbitant rate, giving it away, or even destroying it. Don't like the price someone is selling THEIR property for? Make a counter-offer, or don't buy it; simple as that.

Oh, and as far as this notion of "buying/hoarding/reselling" goes, I can only laugh because 9 times out of 10, people lose money on kits they decide to part with.

On the issue of boxes, I guess I'm something of a contrarian because when it comes to a lot of vintage Macross,Mospeada, etc models, I place infinitely more value on the box/artwork than the actual kits within, which are, in my opinion, junk.

[thegunny]

On the issue of boxes, I guess I'm something of a contrarian because when it comes to a lot of vintage Macross,Mospeada, etc models, I place infinitely more value on the box/artwork than the actual kits within, which are, in my opinion, junk.

Absolutely, couldn't agree more.

[Valkyrie]

I suppose I have to lump myself in with the collectors more so than the builders, but I wish it was the other way around. Like most others here, time is my limiting factor. Most of my hobby time for the past few years has gone into the resin casting end of things. And I've been way behind on even that lately.

I have a fairly sizable collection of kits, many of which are rather rare. But I can honestly say that very few of them have I bought with the intent to re-sell for a profit, or with no intention of ever building. There are many that I bought knowing that I wouldn't be building it for quite a while, mainly because my skills weren't good enough to do them justice. But I still would love to build most of them, provided I had the time, and my skills were up to par.

And every once in a while, I'll go through my collection and sell off a few that I know I'll never build. Usually it'll because I don't care about the subject nearly as much as I did when I bought it. The Armored Core series was a good example of that. I was all excited about them when they were new, and I bought a bunch of them as they came out. But my modeling tastes changed, and shifted away from most mecha. And so they went to ebay. I doubt I turned a profit on any of them, but oh well.

As for selling kits without boxes... when I see a resin kit for sale without a box, I immediately assume it's a recast, until I can prove otherwise. I'm just sayin'

[Chas]

I suppose I have to lump myself in with the collectors more so than the builders, but I wish it was the other way around. Like most others here, time is my limiting factor. Most of my hobby time for the past few years has gone into the resin casting end of things. And I've been way behind on even that lately.

I have a fairly sizable collection of kits, many of which are rather rare. But I can honestly say that very few of them have I bought with the intent to re-sell for a profit, or with no intention of ever building. There are many that I bought knowing that I wouldn't be building it for quite a while, mainly because my skills weren't good enough to do them justice. But I still would love to build most of them, provided I had the time, and my skills were up to par.

And every once in a while, I'll go through my collection and sell off a few that I know I'll never build. Usually it'll because I don't care about the subject nearly as much as I did when I bought it. The Armored Core series was a good example of that. I was all excited about them when they were new, and I bought a bunch of them as they came out. But my modeling tastes changed, and shifted away from most mecha. And so they went to ebay. I doubt I turned a profit on any of them, but oh well.

As for selling kits without boxes... when I see a resin kit for sale without a box, I immediately assume it's a recast, until I can prove otherwise. I'm just sayin'

Yeah, see I don't have a problem with any of that. I mean we all do that right - buy kits that we know we're not going to build for a while, or kits we're not quite able to do justice to at the time of purchase so they sit there for a while. Sometimes we decide we're not gonna build 'em afterall so we pass 'em on. Totally fine with it.

Again it's the folks who buy kits for the express purpose of reselling for profit - that's what get's my goat.

And before anyone says it again - Yeah I know they can do whatever they want with it once they have purchased it, and that a lot of the time they get burned and have to sell at a loss - That's not the point.

It's not about them making money or not, it's about the fact that they never wanted to build the damned kit in the first place - just leave it for someone who actually wants to build it! I guess in my ideal world people would just buy kits 'cus they want to build them not 'cus they could re-sell them later for more than they paid.

Again it's just how I feel, and I have realized, since I started the thread that there are things I have not considered (i.e. Shawn's post and a lot of what VFTF1 posted) which have tepmered those feelings, and I rationally understand that there is nothing Wrong with it, but the feelings are still there.

Continue if you will.

[Smegalot]

I guess you could say that I am a collector to. But I aim to build mine when I get the chance, I love model building and like to do a decent job on them. I want to put an entry in the QME (Queensland Model Expo) next year. I try and get the ones I like when they are realeased to save me trying to find them later on, at either a pretty high cost to some "Re-Sellor" or "Scalper", which is pretty common in toy collecting from what I hear.

the Scalper would go to a local Toy/Hobby shop on the day of the schedualled release of the figure set or item, and buy most of them out and put up for sale either on E-Bay or at a colectors shop. The best one that Ihave seen years ago, was in my local comic shop one of there empolyees walked in with a TOYWORLD bag full of Star Wars figures. And I heard the owner say take of the Pricetags and double/Triple the price and put them on the shelf. He didn't know if they would be rare or not.

But I agree what people do with there models after they buy them is there business.

that's my 2 cents anyway

[ahiachris]

I am not a serious collector and I tends to buy the ones I like when they first come out. The ones that I don't like anymore I will resell them at auction sites for the price that I paid excluding the shipping cost. When I first found out what amzing work Captain America was doing I tried to find his out of production kits at auction site and cannot find them. I ended up patiently waiting and was able to get them from members here for a very reasonable price. I am very happy now because I'd got all of Captain's creations that I like.

[Loki]

I own 300+ unbuilt model kits all of which are sitting packed away in boxes, I guess that would qualify me as a collector? I'm not a hoarder I am just waiting for time and space to build them. I have some experience building models and I have always bought my models with the intention of keeping and building them but sometimes my interests change and I sell off the ones I no longer want. From a seller's point of view I would admit that I would be happy if my item sold for more than the price I paid for it but truthfully I always aim to break even and if not oh well.

There is a collectables and toy store at my local farmers market and the owner is a scalper / hoarder. He sells a lot of Transformers, GI Joe's, Star Wars toys, Matchbox cars, Comics and so on. The majority of items in there are marked up to twice the price of retail (at least). Every time I go in nothing changes much I do not see many people buying his stuff. Even if the guy is able to sell some of his highly marked up toys it takes him a long time to make a sale. Yes it irks me when I cannot find the toys / models at my local supermarket or hobby store and the scalpers have it and are demanding crazy prices but at the same time I can find what I want online usually at below retail prices if I go for used / second hand.

[Viceland]

I'm not a hoarder I am just waiting for time and space to build them. I have some experience building models and I have always bought my models with the intention of keeping and building them but sometimes my interests change and I sell off the ones I no longer want. From a seller's point of view I would admit that I would be happy if my item sold for more than the price I paid for it but truthfully I always aim to break even and if not oh well.

Exact same situation here.

[Grayson72]

I buy a lot of kits... more than I can build. I get them because I think they're cool, and because I'd LIKE to build them... eventually. I know I can't build them all... I'll eventually have to pick and choose which ones I actually finish. But I buy the kits because I like to know I can then build them later, if I wish, and not have to track down the kit for an exhorbitant price.

If you were to look at my stacks of unbuilt kits, you'd probably call me a collector... but I don't intend to resell the kits. Not unless forced to by some sort of negative life circumstance.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Smegalot]

QUOTE (KOG Water Dragon @ Nov 24 2009, 04:04 PM)

I buy a lot of kits... more than I can build. I get them because I think they're cool, and because I'd LIKE to build them... eventually. I know I can't build them all... I'll eventually have to pick and choose which ones I actually finish. But I buy the kits because I like to know I can then build them later, if I wish, and not have to track down the kit for an exhorbitant price.

If you were to look at my stacks of unbuilt kits, you'd probably call me a collector... but I don't intend to resell the kits. Not unless forced to by some sort of negative life circumstance.

This is exactly how I feel.

ditto

[MechTech]

I guess you can just call me a hoarder - PERIOD I haven't sold any of my kits at all. I collect for doing projects (like the Daedalus) and then build them when I get a chance. I usually give away any kits that I don't get to building (ONLY non-Macross kits).

I think one of the awesome things about America is the freedom/ability to do what you like with your property. If you want to trade your Yellow Sub 1/48 Perfect Detail Valkyrie for a house, and you find some sucker to trade you for it, that's just fine. Free commerce and competition is what makes a better product. - MT

[ultimateone]

I think one of the awesome things about America is the freedom/ability to do what you like with your property. If you want to trade your Yellow Sub 1/48 Perfect Detail Valkyrie for a house, and you find some sucker to trade you for it, that's just fine. Free commerce and competition is what makes a better product. - MT

I don't know about a house, but I've got one hell of a shed I'll trade you for your Daedalus!! (I'll throw in the riding mower)

[thegunny]

I think one of the awesome things about America is the freedom/ability to do what you like with your property. If you want to trade your Yellow Sub 1/48 Perfect Detail Valkyrie for a house, and you find some sucker to trade you for it, that's just fine. Free commerce and competition is what makes a better product. - MT

That's about all a house is worth in the US at moment anyway

In Aus we like to sell people the Sydney Harbour bridge