MY SUGESTION

[ruskiiVFaussie]

Transformers suck balls.

Thank God Yamato was a small company that had something to prove when they got the Macross license.

^ ^ ^ oh yeah!

[thegunny]

all the tranny fans let out a collective yawn?

I think some trannies can be quite interesting

[VFTF1]

VFTF-1, I don't know which figures you've handled, but with the exception of armada and energon, transformers figures became better with each line. Unless you had more around, I've noticed you sold your TF re-issue collection, which is, in my opinion, crappy 25 year old figures that wouldn't hold a candle to today's specimens. Not trying to start a war or anything, I'm just stating that.

I've handled almost every single Transformer that has ever been produced. My re-issues were the last to be sold; before that I have owned pretty much everything except Japanese G1 Victory toys and a couple of other super rare items.

"with the exception of Armada and Energon" is a mouth full, considering that those two lines came after the radical advance that was BW - they were a major step backwards; Armada especially (not talking about Unicron and Minicons, but everything else - yes).

However - as has been sometimes pointed out to me, correctly - I cannot demand of a 10 dollar TF what I demand of a hundred dollar Yamato. So of course it's not right to fault Transformers for being total crap on their own merits.

That said, I do think the movie line has been terrible and that Transformers have gotten progressively worse. There's very little accuracy, less innovation, and what's the point of the intricate movie designs if you can't mimic them in toy form ?

But... you're right - that is a seperate topic.

Lots of people are posting some interesting things about the build quality issues regarding Yamato and toys in general - but this thread is sort of wierd because there's no way NOT to go off topic.

It is actually NECESSARY to go off topic to make heads or tails of it

I'm happy with what Yamato have done. Also, I am certain they are always trying to use better quality materials. I mean - think about it - do you think that these discussions we fans are having are not had amongst engineers and designers? Remember those pictures of Shoji Kawamorii at Bandai working on the VF-25? What do you think they were discussing? The weather?

I'm sure the people making these have gone over all the options and in th end they always have to compromise and make something.

Now - if that something is the version 2.0 VF-1 from Yamato - I'm impressed.

You people do realize that you're being made fun of in almost every other anime\robot community for your insistence in line-art accuracy

What mecha anime forum would ever make fun of u for wanting line art accuracy in Macross toys?

Judging by Bandai's Soul of Chogokin line, not to mention their super accurate PG and MG Gundams (and heck, even the HGs are excellent representations) - I think the MAJORITY of anime mecha fans demand line art accuracy.

As for "robot community" - I interpret that to mean Transformers?

This is hard to believe as well since, actually, Transformers fans have been shouting and desiring SCREEN ACCURATE toys since Beast Wars. And Hasbro/Takara-Tomy DO try to deliver. I mean, Animated was pretty screen accurate.

The movie lines have not been.

So who exactly is making fun of us?

The nose cone on the VF-1 is NOT bent forward at all.

That's like saying that the SDF-1 bends at the knees because it SEEMS to be doing that in a screen cap in DYRL.

We had this discussion before. Line art and in-motion fluid animation are two different things.

Pete

[Temjin]

yes, how dare we want our toys to actually look like the anime. I guess this is why whenever takara releases a new MP all the tranny fans let out a collective yawn?

Should use toys as standard, and complain about The anime is not toy accurate.

I only have the Yamato YF-19, it looks great, but transforming that thing is a pain every time. I do think the design is still in the early stage, it will improve over time.

[VFTF1]

Wait... now I noticed the sub-heading of this topic is "make Valks like Transformers." But the topic starte berated me that this was not what he meant and that he is not proposing to make Valks like Transformers.

I'm very confused now

Pete

[eugimon]

can we just have an official pinned thread: toys should be cheaper and ignore the laws of thermodynamics?

[VenomMacbeth]

I don't think Yamato should make valkyries like transformers. Although they are expensive and "line art accurate" (I personally believe it's impossible to make a real "toy" accurate to the line art, considering the engineering involved) they seem to sell very well & keep Yamato in business, so I think they should stick with it. However, a company should make valkyries that aren't ridiculously fragile & expensive, but still nice (a la transformers.) Although, Hasbro's QC has gone to an all-time low recently, so I think some other company should do it.

[VFTF1]

can we just have an official pinned thread: toys should be cheaper and ignore the laws of thermodynamics?

Eugimon - that's the third time you've writen something that made me smile in this thread Thank you.

I don't think Yamato should make valkyries like transformers. Although they are expensive and "line art accurate" (I personally believe it's impossible to make a real "toy" accurate to the line art, considering the engineering involved) they seem to sell very well & keep Yamato in business, so I think they should stick with it. However, a company should make valkyries that aren't ridiculously fragile & expensive, but still nice (a la transformers.) Although, Hasbro's QC has gone to an all-time low recently, so I think some other company should do it.

Well according to the topic starter, if I understand the last page of this thread correctly, he never said that Yamato should make valkyries like transformers, although that's what he's saying, except that it's not. What he's really saying is that Yamato should use the same materials and methods that...presumably...are used by Hasbro...to make Transformers.

It's a fine distinction which can only be made by the topic starter who has kindly tolerated the inability of some of us to grasp this distinction.

Pete

[Roy Focker]

Wait... now I noticed the sub-heading of this topic is "make Valks like Transformers." But the topic starte berated me that this was not what he meant and that he is not proposing to make Valks like Transformers.

I'm very confused now

Pete

Blame me for that. His Original Title/Subtitle was one of those "I want you to Read My Topic but if I tell you what's it about you wont so I'll just be vague" ones. The kind we have a rule against. Trying to be nice I looked for a couple of buzz words in his first post. Have no desire to read what he is suggesting. That's just me when I see vague topics.

[VFTF1]

Blame me for that. His Original Title/Subtitle was one of those "I want you to Read My Topic but if I tell you what's it about you wont so I'll just be vague" ones. The kind we have a rule against. Trying to be nice I looked for a couple of buzz words in his first post

I kind of figured that - but since all of page 1 is about him vehemently telling us that his topic is NOT about those buzzwords... it ends up being funny

I think Eugimon is right - we need a permanent thread called "I HATE YAMAT!/YAMATO SUCKS BALL!" -- it can be kind of like the newbie thread - a place for people to go to voice all of their various imagined grievances.

I say "imagined grievances" specifically because the Toy forum HAS a serious thread for serious grievences called "What's wrong with my Yamato, Bandai, etc. "

That's the place for serious people who have real problems to ask about them and discuss them.

So we need a thread for people who have never handled any Yamato products, or who have two, or who bought one, had it break and freaked, or who just don't like Yamato, to vent

or not...

Pete

[promethuem5]

I think we should just ban all the people in this thread who cannot concisely and succinctly convey a point in text.

[VenomMacbeth]

I don't hate yamato. I think the toys look really cool, I just wish I could afford them! In fact, I've been considering getting a GNU VF-1A Max figure.

What I REALLY want to see are some mini MINI valkyries! Like the "Smallest Transformers" series. They could make them similar to the Chunky Monkeys, only they would be tiny!

PS- As for Transformers sucking balls, I have personally never had my balls sucked by a Transformer nor have I ever witnessed a Transformer in the act of sucking one's balls. Just my experience.

Edited November 24, 2009 by VenomMacbeth

[promethuem5]

What I REALLY want to see are some mini MINI valkyries! Like the "Smallest Transformers" series. They could make them similar to the Chunky Monkeys, only they would be tiny!

These toys exist... you want the Kaiyodo Gashapon figures from a couple years ago: Review here.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

Transformers suck balls.

Thank God Yamato was a small company that had something to prove when they got the Macross license.

PS- As for Transformers sucking balls, I have personally never had my balls sucked by a Transformer nor have I ever witnessed a Transformer in the act of sucking one's balls. Just my experience.

Thank you both!!! Best replies I've seen these couple last days

[kurdt_the_goat]

I honestly think it's much easier to make a Macross toy (thanks to definitive line-art) than it is turning real-world vehicles into robots that even vaguely resemble the TF movie designs, thanks to their sheer complexity. TF CGI magic takes greater liberties than Macross anime magic!

TF defence force...

ROTF Leader Optimus Prime manages to achieve an almost exact truck mode and a fantastic representation of his robot mode through great engineering ability. And it's playable, and you don't have to be careful with it, and it costs than around 30% of the price of a Yamato Macross item. Certainly the grade of plastic is different, and more toy like than a Yamato, and the tolerance of connections, by design, is not quite as exacting. But it's undeniable that this toy had just as much dedication and skill behind it, as any Yamato toy. ALL things considered, the just out Buster Prime version is easily my toy of the year.

Personally i think if given the opportunity (and price point), TakaraTomy's TF designers would do just as good a job with Macross toys as Yamato (or Bandai), if not better. They have surely had the most experience when it comes to engineering of transforming toys.

At the end of the day, Yamato and TakaraTomy's designers all start out with differing goals, limitations, budgets and markets - and if you can understand that, you could see that generally, they're both successful. Yamato does what Yamato does, and I like them for what they do. If they just did it like Transformers, it'd take away from the uniqueness (of both!), and frankly - i have Transformers for when i want toys like Transformers!

[hutch]

studying a valk 1/60 2.0 that plastic i mentioned earlier that's super strong would work and dicast hinges to the chest plate and covers for the spaces in the valk while in robot mode forgive me if i said that i forgot the name of the valk while in robot mode

Are you talking about side covers for under the arms in battroid mode?

I believe those fall under the category of 'anime magic' unless you're talking about having a separate part. Those have been cast in the past by MW members for the 1/48 but I don't know if they've made them for the 1/60.

Also, diecast on the upper body is a questionable decision unless you plan on putting it in the legs as well to lower the CG.

And then if you put it in the legs we'll all end up with droopy legged valks in plane mode in 5 years.

Other than if you got one that was damaged because of the knurled shoulder pin I don't know what people would find so objectionable in the 1/60...it's tighter than crap in every mode (especially plane) is quite posable, balances well in GERWALK and battroid mode, is well marked with very good tampo prints...it seems to me to be a case of wanting diecast just to want diecast because somehow, mentally, a toy with more 'heft' is a 'better' or 'higher quality' toy...

[thankheaven]

I have never had a problem with any of my Yamato toys or my Bandai toys at all.

But i have had tons of problems with my transformers toys.

MP Skywarp had cracks in a few places and pieces popping off everywhere. Classics Astrotrain fell apart when i opened the box and i don't mean simply ball joints popping off. Over half of my Animated toys have had problems and are made of really thin and crappy plastic. Nothing locks together what so ever.

Takara is better at this but Hasbro doesn't understand the word quality control in my opinion.

[Big Irv]

I honestly think it's much easier to make a Macross toy (thanks to definitive line-art) than it is turning real-world vehicles into robots that even vaguely resemble the TF movie designs, thanks to their sheer complexity. TF CGI magic takes greater liberties than Macross anime magic!

TF defence force...

ROTF Leader Optimus Prime manages to achieve an almost exact truck mode and a fantastic representation of his robot mode through great engineering ability. And it's playable, and you don't have to be careful with it, and it costs than around 30% of the price of a Yamato Macross item. Certainly the grade of plastic is different, and more toy like than a Yamato, and the tolerance of connections, by design, is not quite as exacting. But it's undeniable that this toy had just as much dedication and skill behind it, as any Yamato toy. ALL things considered, the just out Buster Prime version is easily my toy of the year.

Personally i think if given the opportunity (and price point), TakaraTomy's TF designers would do just as good a job with Macross toys as Yamato (or Bandai), if not better. They have surely had the most experience when it comes to engineering of transforming toys.

At the end of the day, Yamato and TakaraTomy's designers all start out with differing goals, limitations, budgets and markets - and if you can understand that, you could see that generally, they're both successful. Yamato does what Yamato does, and I like them for what they do. If they just did it like Transformers, it'd take away from the uniqueness (of both!), and frankly - i have Transformers for when i want toys like Transformers!

BEST post on this thread by far.

I feel the exact same way. What I want from my Yamato Valks is completely different from what I want from my TFs. Period. Both my ROTF Optimus Prime (who's engineering is astounding) and my VF-1 2.0 (Skull Leader ALL da way! ) both fill different niches wonderfully and to have them both made one way or the other simply won't do.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Big Irv

[Ghost Train]

Ghost Train:

That sounds fascinating - I'm very interested. Could you please write more about your studies. Technically theGunny is right that it's all lovely theory, but in the end as long as product is moving, that's al that counts... But I have my own counter-theory to that - namely that due to the internet, we are seeing economic activity catering more and more to niche markets in every field, where there is high demand for precision and accuracy because the focus is on one thing.

As for Yamato reaching the 3.4 to 1 million ratio - Ghost Train: what if your company doesn't produce 1 million pieces? Yamato don't do a million pieces per valk - how does it look when you are producng in far lower quantities - like a thousand times lower?

Pete

I would love to elaborate .

Basically, quality-science is based on high-school statistics. So a picture is worth a thousand words:

Machines, humans, and whatever manufacturing tools are used are not perfect - no 2 parts ever produced are exactly the same. The point is to keep these minor differences as small as possible and within an Upper & Lower Control Limit (Note that this is not the same as a Specification Limit). A SL is what the design says it is, a CL is your own "quality" standard of what the upper & lower bounds should be.

So, anyways back to the graph, basically we can think of most manufacturing processes as being normally distributed (bell-curve), there are some weird instances where normal distribution need not apply, but 99% of all situations are normally distributed. The center (Mu) is the target. Say you want a part to be 150mm in length - which is Mu. Since machines / people aren't perfect, you will get a batch that is relatively close to 150mm, some might be 150.2mm, and gasp... you have one piece of crap that's 153mm.

The rejection regions falls on either tail end of the curve. If you have low-standards, and your quality is defined as:

-At +1 sigma (1 standard deviation away from mean), that means that a good 32% of your parts might be defective.

-At +2 sigma (2 standard deviations), you have a defect rate of about 5%. Better, but still bad, 5 defects out of 100 units.

-At +3 sigma (3 standard deviations), you have a defect rate of 0.26%. The vast majority of organizations are at this level.

-At +6 sigma (6 standard deviations), you have a really really low rate (lol too lazy to look up exact %).

Basically, you shift the bell curve to the right or left by 1.5 sigma to simulate some sort of environmental change (machine wear, employee training, 2012 cataclysm, zombies), and even with a shift, you still have 3.4 defects per million parts... then your organization is top-notch. Note that 6 sigma without a 1.5 shift is lower than 3.4 ppm... 3.4 is kind of like a "worse case scenario".

It's really a percentage, even if you don't make 1,000,000 units you can still scale it appropriately to see where it falls.

The point is that it's REALLY HARD to keep up a high standard. Even Toyota, long time quality gurus, are showing dents in their armor now they have displaced GM as the #1 automaker. The point about the guy sneezing in the antartic was really hyperbolic. What I meant was that there are just a lot of factors a company cannot control - Humidity / Temperature greatly affect a machine's performance, Stress / Emotions affect a human worker's performance, etc.

In the case of Yamato, I used to think that they didn't give 2 cents about QA, but the current track record of valkyries (at least anecdotally) makes me think that I might have been wrong. Fanboys are no longer willing to eat up anything that looks "accurate" even if it's as fragile as a twig.

[VFTF1]

That's a very cool post. Thank you for sharing that information. Very interesting stuff.

So I guess I DID learn something thanks to this crazy thread after all.

Some more questions for you Ghost Train:

1. Can you please tell us about methods of effective and cost-efficient quality control that you learned about? Is EVERY product tested for quality, or rather is there some way to refine the production process so that you KNOW that your product will fall within the frame of the bell curve and you'll achieve result X?

2. In terms of mass produced items, is the idea that tests are run on a dummy product and once the dummy is refined, then it's just slammed out and nobody bothers to check individual items?

Thanks for sharing!

Pete

[eugimon]

I honestly think it's much easier to make a Macross toy (thanks to definitive line-art) than it is turning real-world vehicles into robots that even vaguely resemble the TF movie designs, thanks to their sheer complexity. TF CGI magic takes greater liberties than Macross anime magic!

TF defence force...

ROTF Leader Optimus Prime manages to achieve an almost exact truck mode and a fantastic representation of his robot mode through great engineering ability. And it's playable, and you don't have to be careful with it, and it costs than around 30% of the price of a Yamato Macross item. Certainly the grade of plastic is different, and more toy like than a Yamato, and the tolerance of connections, by design, is not quite as exacting. But it's undeniable that this toy had just as much dedication and skill behind it, as any Yamato toy. ALL things considered, the just out Buster Prime version is easily my toy of the year.

Personally i think if given the opportunity (and price point), TakaraTomy's TF designers would do just as good a job with Macross toys as Yamato (or Bandai), if not better. They have surely had the most experience when it comes to engineering of transforming toys.

At the end of the day, Yamato and TakaraTomy's designers all start out with differing goals, limitations, budgets and markets - and if you can understand that, you could see that generally, they're both successful. Yamato does what Yamato does, and I like them for what they do. If they just did it like Transformers, it'd take away from the uniqueness (of both!), and frankly - i have Transformers for when i want toys like Transformers!

again...

MP SS, with jank landing gear, non detailed cockpit, non painted "pilot", a wing hinge that's practically designed to stress and crack, limited posability, fit issues in fighter mode.

MP Convoy, can't securely hold its own gun, top heavy, ratchet joints limit posability due to lack of incremental positions, poor QC, each reissue worse than the release before, compromised vehicle mode, fit issues.

MP Megs, a bot mode so compromised it makes the YF-21 battroid look perfect

MP Grimlock, little more than an upscaled version of the original G1 release.

Maybe Hasbro can do better, so far they have yet to prove it.

[VFTF1]

You know - I actually don't blame the engineers at Hasbro/Takara that much. It's not their fault. The fault lies in the whole fake "Transformers is about change" philosophy that Hasbro made up when it became abundantly clear that the franchise never stopped changing and when their marketing people made a strategic long term decision to ditch continuity in favor of rebooting the franchise roughly once every year.

I just read the interview on Seibertron.com where the Editor of Transformers Ongoing makes the Orwellian statement that ongoing is not a reboot and actually makes the argument that the different look of the characters is because Transformers can change the way they look, and they just keep doing it depending on what comic book you're holding, but that the characters remain the same.

Lame. It's a reboot. Every single Transformers story that has come out since Beast Machines has basically been a "what if?" story - it's almost like the MO is thus:

1) Design new toys

2) Make up new story by asking "what if" and filling in the blanks after that. What if Optimus Prime quit, died, got cancer, ate pizza, learned to pee, turned into a monkey instead of a truck, flew to Mars, got married, had to fight Spike Witwicky, teamed up with Megatron, painted himself black...etc etc

And the designs are so rushed in order to get the new product range out that at every step of the way there's compromises being made.

And therefore, everything only vaguely resembles everything else in all the mediums and there's no unified plot - and never has been in all the years of TFs existance (remember how the Marvel comics had nothing to do with the cartoon).

So really - when designers sit down to design a Transformer - they are looking at making something that above all has to sell within the next 12 months.

This is also why most of the time somebody from marketing says "give them a gimmick! Remember the gimmick!" and a uniform gimmick is stupidly incorporated into every line - has been since Armada really, although it kindo f started with the spark crystals in Beast Wars, or Transmetals and their "tripple transformation."

This would all work out just fine if you just kept making up new characters like Macross does.

But sadly, part of Hasbro's marketing strategy relies on BRAND RECOGNITION - and to that effect Optimus Prime, Starscream, Soundwave, Megatron, etc etc etc have to be eternal. They must always be there in every cartoon in every toy line - because the trademark must be preserved and because it helps with brand recognition.

This is all a function of the American domestic market.

Hasbro is NOT about to start competing with Bandai's SOCs and Yamato's Macross, Bumblegum Crisis or other lines. It's NOT.

Why?

Because they are marketing to a totally different demographic and the two have actually nothing in common. Where they cross over is with people my age who grew up on one and came into the other and therefore are driven by sentiment to have both - unless, like me, they decide Transformers has ceased being interesting and get rid of/stop collecting Transformers.

But in terms of the general population - Hasbro doesn't care about otaku, Transformers is not anime. It's just robot fodder for the kiddies.

I wonder - can someone who lives in Japan and has knowledge of this subject please tell us:

How is the Transformers cartoon seen in Japan? Who watches it? Is it even considered anime? What category would it fall under?

Pete

[Kyp Durron]

-At +1 sigma (1 standard deviation away from mean), that means that a good 32% of your parts might be defective.

-At +2 sigma (2 standard deviations), you have a defect rate of about 5%. Better, but still bad, 5 defects out of 100 units.

-At +3 sigma (3 standard deviations), you have a defect rate of 0.26%. The vast majority of organizations are at this level.

-At +6 sigma (6 standard deviations), you have a really really low rate (lol too lazy to look up exact

I guess where Yamato fits in that scale would depend on who you ask here on the forums, lol. Although, I'd really like to know were Yamato's Macross line would be in this scale.

-Kyp

Edited November 24, 2009 by Kyp Durron

[VenomMacbeth]

These toys exist... you want the Kaiyodo Gashapon figures from a couple years ago: Review here.

I know the toys of which you speak, and that's not what I mean. I'm talking perfect transformation.

[eriku]

MP Grimlock is little more than an upscaled version of the G1 toy? Huh. I guess I got a different toy. The one I got definitely retains the look of G1 Grimlock, but has loads of articulation, fun and clever features, and is one of the most well-constructed modern toys I've ever held. But I realise that isn't keeping to the "Yamato doesn't suck, Transformers suck!" re-purposing of this thread, so I'll just shut up now.

Edited November 24, 2009 by eriku

[Knightdramon]

again...

MP SS, with jank landing gear, non detailed cockpit, non painted "pilot", a wing hinge that's practically designed to stress and crack, limited posability, fit issues in fighter mode.

MP Convoy, can't securely hold its own gun, top heavy, ratchet joints limit posability due to lack of incremental positions, poor QC, each reissue worse than the release before, compromised vehicle mode, fit issues.

MP Megs, a bot mode so compromised it makes the YF-21 battroid look perfect

MP Grimlock, little more than an upscaled version of the original G1 release.

Maybe Hasbro can do better, so far they have yet to prove it.

Sorry, I agree with you on almost all points except Starscream [love the mould, never really cared about how detailed the cockpit or the unpainted "pilot" is] and Grimlock.

Grimlock has a relatively simple transformation compared to, say, ROTF Optimus Prime or even his line-mate Starscream, but what do you guys think the VF-1 is in terms of transformation engineering?

25 years later each and every version transforms in almost the same way with minor differences and they're not that difficult, honestly. The SV-51 and VF-19 and onwards are a tad tricky, but the VF-1 is still simple.

You've got to understand [directed to VFTF-1's post] that what you said about transformers pretty much translates into what gundam is, for example. There's no WHAT IF things, just other stories. Like as there's always a Gundam prototype, a red\pink mobile suit that belongs to the antagonist and maybe moves 3 times faster\etc.

Macross as an anime does not rely on the fighter planes to tell the story, it relies on the characters and their interactions with whatever alien threat they're facing; which are almost all defeated by means of singing. The only exception is Macross Plus to this point.

Most transformers cartoons in Japan are dumbed down and aimed at young kids, sadly. The BW dub is horrible and has a much, MUCH lighter tone, Superlink is by far the most mature out of all the shows aired in Japan so far. Not sure what they did to the dub of BM. Bear in mind that besides BW, BM and Animated and partly G1, all other series were written, directed and aired in Japan, then got "imported" to the US and got dubbed [messing up the Galaxy Force series].

I'm guessing the topic creator sort of created a hasm between TF\Macross fans and "purebreed" Macross fans in this forum.

[eugimon]

You say the vf-1 is simple yet it took 20 years for someone to make it without having giant swing bars stuck on the side of the fuselage.

While you may not care for things like a realistic and detailed cockpit, landing gear, jets, etc, those features are all animated and detailed and it addresses your assertion that Takara/Hasbro could do "just as good of a job" and yet, with a toy of similar size and similar constraints (turning a realistic jet into a robot) their effort has all the same issues as any yamato (fit issues, prone to breakage) while having none of the other features and detailing.

This is just the latest bit of fanboy wankfest... first it was all about how Bandai would make a 100 dollar valkyrie that was perfect and blah blah blah, and then they released a toy that looks and feels like it was designed 7 years ago that come with a slew of QC issues and now they've moved on to takara completely forgetting they've also tried their hand at anime accurate toys that have their own design and QC issues.

Edited November 24, 2009 by eugimon

[eugimon]

I'd just like to also mention, the yamato 1/48 vf-1 and the MP Convoy both came out in 2003.

Since then yamato has released the following all new molds:

1/60:

vf-0

sv-51

yf-19

yf-21/vf-22

vf-11

vf-1 ver 2.0

1/100 konig monster

not including 2 destroids, the Q-rau, a 2 seater version of the vf-1, GBP armor, and FAST packs.

Takara has released:

MP Seeker

MP Megatron

MP Grimlock

And just for kicks, lets include the RotF Prime.

4 high end, show accurate molds versus 7... Despite having a much larger fanbase, 2 hugely successful movies to ride coat tails on, several successful animated programs, a lower price point, international distribution and marketing, OWNING their own licenses, Takara has released fewer toys, the majority of those being released being simple repaints with less retooling than the difference between a vf-1s and vf-1j.

So... again... why does anyone think Takara would do a better job?

Edited November 25, 2009 by eugimon

[Knightdramon]

I'd just like to also mention, the yamato 1/48 vf-1 and the MP Convoy both came out in 2003.

Since then yamato has released the following all new molds:

1/60:

vf-0

sv-51

yf-19

yf-21/vf-22

vf-11

vf-1 ver 2.0

1/100 konig monster

not including 2 destroids, the Q-rau, a 2 seater version of the vf-1, GBP armor, and FAST packs.

Takara has released:

MP Seeker

MP Megatron

MP Grimlock

And just for kicks, lets include the RotF Prime.

4 high end, show accurate molds versus 7... Despite having a much larger fanbase, 2 hugely successful movies to ride coat tails on, several successful animated programs, a lower price point, international distribution and marketing, OWNING their own licenses, Takara has released fewer toys, the majority of those being released being simple repaints with less retooling than the difference between a vf-1s and vf-1j.

So... again... why does anyone think Takara would do a better job?

For all sakes and purposes, I'm "merging" Takara as it should be, with Hasbro. Everything after RID was a collaborative effort.

And they've released [an estimate] of around 200 new moulds [not counting repaints or even retools] since then in various lines. What you fail to understand is that transformers as a franchise is marketed to children, hence their mass-produced, 10-40 USD figures instead of the target group that Yamato\Macross franchise is trying to go for. Since collectors are also in their interest, there's lines like Binaltech, Alternity, Alternators and Masterpiece.

[kurdt_the_goat]

You're missing the point if you're just looking at the MP releases - TT designs hundreds of toys a year, i was saying their experience is second to none even if they haven't been tasked with creating a toy of Yamato calibur and price point.

Personally, I've had no problems with MP Prime, Megatron, Skywarp and Grimlock (the only ones i have).

But, i do recognize there were issues with various runs. ALL of the toy manufacturers have QC issues from time to time, simple as that.

I do lament the top of Skywarp's jet mode jutting out since it seems like an easy fix - but factoring in price, they did a pretty damn good job.

It's got about as many movable gimmicks as you could imagine - various air breaks, radar, missiles in chest (more than a 1/60 VF-1 and definitely more than a VF-11).

Not to mention a shitload more tampo printing.

Most importantly, it holds together in all modes.

Comparatively, the YF-19 comes across as an amateurish toy - for all the accuracy and complexity they put in, they couldn't figure out how to lock the chest in, stop the shoulders from snapping right off and the legs from falling out.

Mine sure as hell stays in fighter mode

The reason i bring that up is just because you can't judge them or TT on one toy alone!

Edited November 25, 2009 by kurdt_the_goat

[Excillon]

I would love to elaborate .

Basically, quality-science is based on high-school statistics. So a picture is worth a thousand words:

Machines, humans, and whatever manufacturing tools are used are not perfect - no 2 parts ever produced are exactly the same. The point is to keep these minor differences as small as possible and within an Upper & Lower Control Limit (Note that this is not the same as a Specification Limit). A SL is what the design says it is, a CL is your own "quality" standard of what the upper & lower bounds should be.

So, anyways back to the graph, basically we can think of most manufacturing processes as being normally distributed (bell-curve), there are some weird instances where normal distribution need not apply, but 99% of all situations are normally distributed. The center (Mu) is the target. Say you want a part to be 150mm in length - which is Mu. Since machines / people aren't perfect, you will get a batch that is relatively close to 150mm, some might be 150.2mm, and gasp... you have one piece of crap that's 153mm.

The rejection regions falls on either tail end of the curve. If you have low-standards, and your quality is defined as:

-At +1 sigma (1 standard deviation away from mean), that means that a good 32% of your parts might be defective.

-At +2 sigma (2 standard deviations), you have a defect rate of about 5%. Better, but still bad, 5 defects out of 100 units.

-At +3 sigma (3 standard deviations), you have a defect rate of 0.26%. The vast majority of organizations are at this level.

-At +6 sigma (6 standard deviations), you have a really really low rate (lol too lazy to look up exact %).

Basically, you shift the bell curve to the right or left by 1.5 sigma to simulate some sort of environmental change (machine wear, employee training, 2012 cataclysm, zombies), and even with a shift, you still have 3.4 defects per million parts... then your organization is top-notch. Note that 6 sigma without a 1.5 shift is lower than 3.4 ppm... 3.4 is kind of like a "worse case scenario".

It's really a percentage, even if you don't make 1,000,000 units you can still scale it appropriately to see where it falls.

The point is that it's REALLY HARD to keep up a high standard. Even Toyota, long time quality gurus, are showing dents in their armor now they have displaced GM as the #1 automaker. The point about the guy sneezing in the antartic was really hyperbolic. What I meant was that there are just a lot of factors a company cannot control - Humidity / Temperature greatly affect a machine's performance, Stress / Emotions affect a human worker's performance, etc.

In the case of Yamato, I used to think that they didn't give 2 cents about QA, but the current track record of valkyries (at least anecdotally) makes me think that I might have been wrong. Fanboys are no longer willing to eat up anything that looks "accurate" even if it's as fragile as a twig.

Thank you for that. I'm a machinist and I'll vouch for all this, as I had to take this course with others at work to gain ISO certification. What I can tell you as a setup machinist is that regardless of whether it's plastic or metal, even aluminum, NO 2 parts are identical. You have variations as cutting tools wear, causing incremental differences, Axis that may not orgin to the precise point it did before, you have mold wear for injection machines, not to mention when dealing with plastics factors such as temperature, chemical consistency, and machining operations ALL play a factor. Many ISO companies use what is called a pre-control, which works like this:

Out of spec: +200mm

Upper threshold: 175mm

Nominal dimension: 150mm

Lower threshold:125mm

Out of spec: -100mm

Tolerance .5 mm +/-, check 1 in 25

What this means is that you get a half mm tolerance, however anything between out of spec and nominal is considered acceptable, and the operator of the machine checks one out of 25 parts. So, you figure bad parts are going to get in the mix, because out of 100 parts run, only 4% were ACTUALLY checked. So there is a 96% chance that there is a bad part or two in the run. It's all part of manufacturing, and there's no way around it. You just hope you or QC catches it before it gets to the customer. Yamato doesn't look at defects individually, no company does because it's impossible to keep up with. They look at PPM's (parts per million) and if it's under say 500, then they're happy.

Sorry for the inane post, just thought it may help those who don't understand the process of manufacturing. Anyhow, as for my opinion, TF's have some cool toys, but I'll take Yamato over them any day. Of course, I'll take Bandai over any of them...

[do not disturb]

i can't believe this made it to the 2nd page.

graphs, charts and long winded replies? whats this place turned into?

beyond nostalgic reasons, all things transformers suck ass.

end of thread.

[shadow strikers]

By all means, when you find this plastic for use in toys, let us know... we'll make gazillions.

Until then, I think you oughta work on putting your thoughts into words and then text on the screen so you can effectively convey said ideas to the rest of us. As it stands, I'm just about certain some part of what you're trying to tell us is getting lost in 'translation'.

these are plastics used in heavy duty stuff like factories. But what I'm asking is to use that but in this toy, so it wont break so easily like people experienced. Like I said I never had a problem but to minimize the chances anyone getting a problem use the stronger plastics.

[shadow strikers]

How about spelling and grammar...

Die Cast? Stronger plastics? What do you plan on doing? Throwing it against a wall? Re-enacting Hikaru's VF-1D crash through Artland's building? Die cast is somewhat expensive for small parts. Stronger plastics are expensive for mass production and quite infeasible for toys.

but you people complain about "oh its head is snapped, shoulders cracked, loose joints" so on and so forth. That's why I said stronger plastics. Heck you can use more Die cast and not worry about paint chipping. There's methods of painting with out having to worry about that.

More Die cast is a stupid Idea, ignore that part of the comment. Because it will just make it heavier and cause loose joints in the first place. But ya Hasbro has more experience with transforming toys, heck if they were given proper funds and time they could probably make something better then Yamato. I like Yamato great company.

Yes I know incomplete sentence.

Edited November 25, 2009 by shadow strikers

[shadow strikers]

I kind of figured that - but since all of page 1 is about him vehemently telling us that his topic is NOT about those buzzwords... it ends up being funny

I think Eugimon is right - we need a permanent thread called "I HATE YAMAT!/YAMATO SUCKS BALL!" -- it can be kind of like the newbie thread - a place for people to go to voice all of their various imagined grievances.

I say "imagined grievances" specifically because the Toy forum HAS a serious thread for serious grievences called "What's wrong with my Yamato, Bandai, etc. "

That's the place for serious people who have real problems to ask about them and discuss them.

So we need a thread for people who have never handled any Yamato products, or who have two, or who bought one, had it break and freaked, or who just don't like Yamato, to vent

or not...

Pete

Like I stated before I never had a problem. But here's a idea, what if Hasbro was able to make valks and market them hooking generations of kids, making them future Yamato consumers? Boost sales, sparks interest, heck if they get big time directors to watch the anime, study it and make a movie out of it then you could get even more people hooked. I mean they are making another macross movie in japan and soon we might have a live action one.