MY SUGESTION

[shadow strikers]

Like I stated a while ago build a valk like a transformer. I got response like " it will be bulky" "poorly articulated". But once again im going to say it. They should do it and when I said built like one I don't mean its a dam transformers I mean use the same plastic and building methods. If a transformer can have smaller parts then a yamato figure and it wont break why should it happen to the yamato. Why not use the same enginiring methods and you can use more metal there's ways of painting metal with out it scraping off? I mean the plastic quality to a 9 dollar toy is better then to a 106 dollar one, that's pretty sad.

The new 1/60 2.0 scale has their figures built more toy like then why not use better plastic its not so expensive to engineer a stronger one. There's ones stronger then steel use those that could make a tough figure and then your fears of cracks and breaks is no more.

EDIT: im talking about the materials not transformers in general so pay more attention to the topic

Edited November 24, 2009 by Roy Focker

[Chronocidal]

Go study engineering, manufacturing, and industrial design, get the degree, and do it yourself then. Simple as that. You're not going to convince a major corporation to make something the way you want it just because you think it'd be better.

You'll eventually realize that there are trade-offs that must be made, and you'll hopefully understand why the existing toys are made like they are.

Sorry to be blunt, but until you study this subject in more detail, you're not going to understand why certain things don't work, or in many cases, are just financially stupid to try. Read the topic on the $2000 SDF-1 for a good example of this.

That being said, why make a new topic just to suggest this again? You're going to get the same responses as before, from the same people (that is, if they feel like responding at all).

Edited November 23, 2009 by Chronocidal

[VFTF1]

You fail to consider one thing:

There are NO Transformer toys that are line-art accurate, and there is no such thing, really, as "line art" in the Transformers universe. Therefore, each and every Transformer toy is a loose interpretation of an animation design or a movie design (in the case of Movie toys).

Being able to produce a toy that is a loose interpretation of a design which itself is a loose interpretation ad infinitum means that they toy maker is not restricted by the need to be faithful to line art.

Yamato's valkyrie have, from the begining, been designed with the explicit purpose of being 100% accurate to the line art from DYRL (and then Macross Plus).

It is physically impossible for them to therefore be built along the same lines as a Transformer because Transformers are designed PRIMARILY as functional toys that are supposed to generally and vaugely resemble something in a badly drawn cartoon.

Meanwhile, Yamato valkyrie are supposed to resemble "real robots" drawn in the greatest work of animation in human history - and perfectly transform to boot. The version 1.0 1/60s got the line art down pretty well, but were not perfect transformation. the 1/48s were perfect transformation. The version 2.0 1/60s use CAD and are perfect transformation.

Transformers don't need to do any of that because their purpose is to be used as throw away toys.

NEXT:

You write as though all Transformers are always built of the same material. Not true. The plastic for Animated was quite different from the plastic used in other lines - just to give an example. And the original Generation 1 cars were aso known for QC issues - rooftops snapping off, the figures breaking at the waste etc etc. They were also delicate designs - at least the diaclones were.

Later Transformers were less delicate, and even less accurate in either mode.

NEXT:

Transformers, being for children, are also made in adherance with child safety laws; and since they are made primarily for the USA, they need to be mindful of American safety laws. Yamato makes Valkyrie for the adult Japanese market - why would you want them to make Valkyrie "like Transformers" (aka be bound by child safety laws and suddenly you wouldn't have com-link antenas on the valks, the noses would be blunt etc etc etc)

FINALLY:

So what you're actually proposing is way too vague. Yamato obviously uses the best materials they can and strive to make a figure that meets some pretty high criteria. They suceed in making the best transforming mecha on the market today if you look at all factors combined.

Takara-Tomy should actually take a cue from Yamato who have managed to radically progress in their work over their years while Transformers get more and more sloppy and shoddy.

Look at Yamato's progress from the 1/60 version 1s and the 1/72s to the v 2.0 line and the Macross Plus 1/60s of today. The progress is amazing and shows they've really been working hard.

Meanwhile, in that same time span, Transformers - which with the onset of Beast Wars was at the forefront of making highly articulated transforming robots, has degenerated in every way: the robots are less poseable, uglier, made of cheaper material, have more kibble, look nothing like their screen counter parts and have effectively obviously been cheapened to the point where your generic modern Transformer is no different from a cheap knock off of a Transformer - and in fact notice how KO makers have few problems replicating Transformers which are easy to replicate precisely because they use 10 year old technology.

Yamato: please ignore this request

Pete

(happy he finally got to rant against TFs again! )

Pete

[eugimon]

There's only one transformer that approaches what a yamato valkyrie is and that the MP seeker line and SS has fit issues and joints prone to stress cracks and failure as well. MP convoy and megatron seriously compromise one of their forms in order to make the other one work, vehicle for convoy and bot mode for megs.

I just want to mention again what a POS my first release takara MP Convoy was... a deformed cab that keeps one chest hatch from locking in bot mode, chrome paint spilled on the top of the cab, loosey goosey ankle joints that can't hold a pose other than stand ram rod straight. and numerous design issues, like hands that can't securely hold the gun, ratchet joints that don't have enough incremental positions, a top heavy design that's prone to toppling.

The alternators have their own issues, toys that are difficult to transform without popping parts off for some molds, tons of reused parts, repaints galore, limbs that are hollowed out, paint chipping on poorly fitting doors, etc.

[shadow strikers]

You fail to consider one thing:

There are NO Transformer toys that are line-art accurate, and there is no such thing, really, as "line art" in the Transformers universe. Therefore, each and every Transformer toy is a loose interpretation of an animation design or a movie design (in the case of Movie toys).

Being able to produce a toy that is a loose interpretation of a design which itself is a loose interpretation ad infinitum means that they toy maker is not restricted by the need to be faithful to line art.

Yamato's valkyrie have, from the begining, been designed with the explicit purpose of being 100% accurate to the line art from DYRL (and then Macross Plus).

It is physically impossible for them to therefore be built along the same lines as a Transformer because Transformers are designed PRIMARILY as functional toys that are supposed to generally and vaugely resemble something in a badly drawn cartoon.

Meanwhile, Yamato valkyrie are supposed to resemble "real robots" drawn in the greatest work of animation in human history - and perfectly transform to boot. The version 1.0 1/60s got the line art down pretty well, but were not perfect transformation. the 1/48s were perfect transformation. The version 2.0 1/60s use CAD and are perfect transformation.

Transformers don't need to do any of that because their purpose is to be used as throw away toys.

NEXT:

You write as though all Transformers are always built of the same material. Not true. The plastic for Animated was quite different from the plastic used in other lines - just to give an example. And the original Generation 1 cars were aso known for QC issues - rooftops snapping off, the figures breaking at the waste etc etc. They were also delicate designs - at least the diaclones were.

Later Transformers were less delicate, and even less accurate in either mode.

NEXT:

Transformers, being for children, are also made in adherance with child safety laws; and since they are made primarily for the USA, they need to be mindful of American safety laws. Yamato makes Valkyrie for the adult Japanese market - why would you want them to make Valkyrie "like Transformers" (aka be bound by child safety laws and suddenly you wouldn't have com-link antenas on the valks, the noses would be blunt etc etc etc)

FINALLY:

So what you're actually proposing is way too vague. Yamato obviously uses the best materials they can and strive to make a figure that meets some pretty high criteria. They suceed in making the best transforming mecha on the market today if you look at all factors combined.

Takara-Tomy should actually take a cue from Yamato who have managed to radically progress in their work over their years while Transformers get more and more sloppy and shoddy.

Look at Yamato's progress from the 1/60 version 1s and the 1/72s to the v 2.0 line and the Macross Plus 1/60s of today. The progress is amazing and shows they've really been working hard.

Meanwhile, in that same time span, Transformers - which with the onset of Beast Wars was at the forefront of making highly articulated transforming robots, has degenerated in every way: the robots are less poseable, uglier, made of cheaper material, have more kibble, look nothing like their screen counter parts and have effectively obviously been cheapened to the point where your generic modern Transformer is no different from a cheap knock off of a Transformer - and in fact notice how KO makers have few problems replicating Transformers which are easy to replicate precisely because they use 10 year old technology.

Yamato: please ignore this request

Pete

(happy he finally got to rant against TFs again! )

Pete

im not talking about transformers im talking about the proccess of being made like use the same plastics you dont under stand what im getting at

[Ghost Train]

Punctuation.... please >_<

[shadow strikers]

Punctuation.... please >_<

sorry im kinda switching between playing maplestory and writing

[CF18]

I mean the plastic quality to a 9 dollar toy is better then to a 106 dollar one, that's pretty sad.

Actually no, the plastic quality is similar, but Hasbro TF subject their toy to more safety focused design, so they have no pointy sharp fin and only have weak spring loaded guns.

I have a small numbers of Yamato and TFs, and oddly enough only a TF suffered breakage - back hinge on a transmetal megatron broke when I was careless. A few of my Yamato suffers from lose hinge (YF-19, SV-51) or poor fit (1:60v1 VF-1A), but no pieces have broken yet.

[VFTF1]

you dont under stand what im getting at

This is true.

Here is the cause:

1.

Like I stated a while ago build a valk like a transformer.

2.

and when I said built like one I don't mean its a dam transformers I mean use the same plastic and building methods.

Those are contradictory. Your topic is self-contradictory. "Build a Valk like a Transformer" contradicts "I don't mean its a dam [sic] transformers [sic]"

But ok - I understand that what you do mean is this:

I mean use the same plastic and building methods.

And this:

im talking about the materials not transformers in general so pay more attention to the topic

However - this is also illogical. "Use the same plastic and uilding methods" as what? As a Transformer. This is pretty much the same as "build a Valk like a Transformer."

This brings us back to the following points which you fail to address:

You write as though all Transformers are always built of the same material. Not true. The plastic for Animated was quite different from the plastic used in other lines - just to give an example. And the original Generation 1 cars were aso known for QC issues - rooftops snapping off, the figures breaking at the waste etc etc. They were also delicate designs - at least the diaclones were.

and Eugimon also brought up some other examples:

I just want to mention again what a POS my first release takara MP Convoy was... a deformed cab that keeps one chest hatch from locking in bot mode, chrome paint spilled on the top of the cab, loosey goosey ankle joints that can't hold a pose other than stand ram rod straight. and numerous design issues, like hands that can't securely hold the gun, ratchet joints that don't have enough incremental positions, a top heavy design that's prone to toppling.

The alternators have their own issues, toys that are difficult to transform without popping parts off for some molds, tons of reused parts, repaints galore, limbs that are hollowed out, paint chipping on poorly fitting doors, etc.

But I think I sort of understand what you're getting at when you write this:

I mean the plastic quality to a 9 dollar toy is better then to a 106 dollar one, that's pretty sad.

So...you have a problem with...the plastic quality?

And you would like the plastic quality to be more like "Transformers?"

There are several problems here:

a) Transformers do not have uniform plastic quality (as has already been mentioned)

b) What exactly is wrong with the plastic quality of Yamato Valkyrie? The QC issues with regard to some of the Valkyrie have nothing to do with plastic quality and more to do with engineering. The exploding arms on the VF-OA wasn't a case of bad plastic quality but just bad QC. The hair-line fracture in the new version 2.0s was not a case of bad plastic quality but bad assembly QC. Generally, I don't really see how Yamato has a "plastic quality problem"

The vast majority of Yamato products have good plastic. It is not brittle, it does not crack, snap or pop (no Rice Crispies inference intended).

pay more attention to the topic

With all due respect - what is the topic?

The topic title is "My suggestion/please read and reply" - so - the topic is your suggestion, which I've read and attempted to reply to. If my reply is incoherent, that is because the suggestion is incoherent. You start off by saying that Valkyire should be made like Transformers; then you clarify that you don't mean make them like Transformers, but just use the same materials and methods as making Transformers. But when confronted with the fact that the materials for making Transformers are not uniform and with the fact that the method for making Transformers is not, as in the case of Valkyrie, an attempt at replicating precise line art from an anime in plastic form, but rather the design of functional toys that vaguely resembles innacurate cartoons - you ignore these points and dismiss comparissons with Transformers as off topic. Yet you yourself introduced the comparisson in the first place, thereby making it part of the topic.

So I'm confused.

What is the topic?

Pete

Edited November 23, 2009 by VFTF1

[EXO]

im not talking about transformers im talking about the proccess of being made like use the same plastics you dont under stand what im getting at

I think it's you that missed his point. The fact is they made transformers that had the detail and close to line accuracy that Yamato toys had and in the end they had similar problems. And to make valks as sturdy as your stansard Transformers they would end up much less line accurate as the general Macross fans desire. The closest you'll get to valks designed similarly to Transformer toys are the 1/55s and the first 1/60s VF-1s.

Personally I haven't had much trouble to the Yamato VF-1s that I have bought. The only one that I'm really unhappy with are the YF-19s. But given the choice I would pick Yamato's manufacturing style over any other company's. My v.2 1/60 VF-1S hasn't had the shoulder fall apart. I suspect it will if I played with it enough, but it seems like that was a manufacturing defect that was easily fixed. It's just too bad that countless buyers already recieved theirs before discovering it.

[eugimon]

What is the topic?

Pete

The topic, as it is for every single thread in the Toys section, is that yamato sucks. This particular sub topic is, "why can't they be more like hasbro?"

[shadow strikers]

I think it's you that missed his point. The fact is they made transformers that had the detail and close to line accuracy that Yamato toys had and in the end they had similar problems. And to make valks as sturdy as your stansard Transformers they would end up much less line accurate as the general Macross fans desire. The closest you'll get to valks designed similarly to Transformer toys are the 1/55s and the first 1/60s VF-1s.

Personally I haven't had much trouble to the Yamato VF-1s that I have bought. The only one that I'm really unhappy with are the YF-19s. But given the choice I would pick Yamato's manufacturing style over any other company's. My v.2 1/60 VF-1S hasn't had the shoulder fall apart. I suspect it will if I played with it enough, but it seems like that was a manufacturing defect that was easily fixed. It's just too bad that countless buyers already recieved theirs before discovering it.

im glad you understand what im saying instead of bashing me in the head

[shadow strikers]

This is true.

Here is the cause:

1.

2.

Those are contradictory. Your topic is self-contradictory. "Build a Valk like a Transformer" contradicts "I don't mean its a dam [sic] transformers [sic]"

But ok - I understand that what you do mean is this:

And this:

However - this is also illogical. "Use the same plastic and uilding methods" as what? As a Transformer. This is pretty much the same as "build a Valk like a Transformer."

This brings us back to the following points which you fail to address:

and Eugimon also brought up some other examples:

But I think I sort of understand what you're getting at when you write this:

So...you have a problem with...the plastic quality?

And you would like the plastic quality to be more like "Transformers?"

There are several problems here:

a) Transformers do not have uniform plastic quality (as has already been mentioned)

b) What exactly is wrong with the plastic quality of Yamato Valkyrie? The QC issues with regard to some of the Valkyrie have nothing to do with plastic quality and more to do with engineering. The exploding arms on the VF-OA wasn't a case of bad plastic quality but just bad QC. The hair-line fracture in the new version 2.0s was not a case of bad plastic quality but bad assembly QC. Generally, I don't really see how Yamato has a "plastic quality problem"

The vast majority of Yamato products have good plastic. It is not brittle, it does not crack, snap or pop (no Rice Crispies inference intended).

With all due respect - what is the topic?

The topic title is "My suggestion/please read and reply" - so - the topic is your suggestion, which I've read and attempted to reply to. If my reply is incoherent, that is because the suggestion is incoherent. You start off by saying that Valkyire should be made like Transformers; then you clarify that you don't mean make them like Transformers, but just use the same materials and methods as making Transformers. But when confronted with the fact that the materials for making Transformers are not uniform and with the fact that the method for making Transformers is not, as in the case of Valkyrie, an attempt at replicating precise line art from an anime in plastic form, but rather the design of functional toys that vaguely resembles innacurate cartoons - you ignore these points and dismiss comparissons with Transformers as off topic. Yet you yourself introduced the comparisson in the first place, thereby making it part of the topic.

So I'm confused.

What is the topic?

Pete

i never had a valk problem in my life

[promethuem5]

i never had a valk problem in my life

So then what's the problem?

[Ghost Train]

To add some "intellectual content" to this thread (which is seemingly about nothing). I'm taking a Total Quality Management course this semester and I was really tempted to write my term paper on "The Exploding Shoulder: Why Grown Men like valkyries."

I have a greater respect now for anything that's mass-produced in any sort of factory because maintaining something at a specific quality standard - with 6 sigma deviation being the goal everyone wants (that's 3.4 defects per million.... lol Yamato has a bit ways to go ) - is truly a difficult undertaking.

We're learning about Taguchi's Loss Function and Signal to Noise Ratio in manufacturing now, and basically in any sort of shop environment there will always be X amount of factors you cannot control "the noise." The idea is to create your product design and processes in a way to minimize the impact of the "noise." When your stated purpose is to create something that looks artistically beautiful on a CG, this can be somewhat challenging.

Random variation is a nature of life. Even the butterfly effect can come into play. A guy sneezing in a remote observation post in Antartica can cause your valkyrie to magically implode.

[eugimon]

End scientific observation in Antarctica NOW!

[hutch]

Transformers are bulky, clumsy, not always that easy to transform (in fact, when they've tried to make them incredibly complex/accurate, they've been unnecessarily complicated (see Alternators)), they often use Die-Cast poorly (see MP Prime), and usually don't look incredibly like either a robot, or their alt mode, usually it's one or the other.

On the other hand, Yamato, and Bandai, have given me toys that look very much like all three modes they convert to, are generally sturdy and look gorgeous on my shelf.

To further evidence, the greatest Transformer toy ever was Jetfire, which was a Bandai Valk with an Autobot sticker.

I like Transformers, and they have their place, but I think my Yammies are way better, at least for my tastes.

Remind me again why I'd want valks to be more like Transformers?

Edited November 24, 2009 by hutch

[logos]

You want Valks to be like Transformers because you are nostalgic for what you remember them to be as a child. If they released those cartoons and toys today you would be like WTF? The problem is that Bandai and Yamato make toys for a larger and probably older age group. Hasbro thinks they can get away with allot of the crap they sell because they are marking to 6-12 year olds. Bandai and Yamato are targeting what.......6 going on 20-35 year olds?

I love my G1s that I still have and I can appreciate them as to what they where when I was a child but to compare them to a Yamato or Bandai...... well there is just no comparison. Yamatos may not be the sturdiest things in the world (to some eyes) but the level of detail and refinement that goes into everyone is awesome. IMO you are defiantly getting what you pay for. Bandai is the same case although I am less impressed with the VF-25 DX line.

Edited November 24, 2009 by logos

[EXO]

It's funny because I'm not into Transformers but the ones I do collect are the ones mentioned here because they remind me the most of the Yamato Macross Toys.

I have the MP-1 and every MP in fact except Grimlock... I really don't see theupgrade except in size. And I have BT's and Alts because they vehicle mode is so close to the actual cars and the bot mode are so comparable to their G1 versions.

I think they are good toys, I still prefer my Yammies.

[shadow strikers]

You want Valks to be like Transformers because you are nostalgic for what you remember them to be as a child. If they released those cartoons and toys today you would be like WTF? The problem is that Bandai and Yamato make toys for a larger and probably older age group. Hasbro thinks they can get away with allot of the crap they sell because they are marking to 6-12 year olds. Bandai and Yamato are targeting what.......6 going on 20-35 year olds?

I love my G1s that I still have and I can appreciate them as to what they where when I was a child but to compare them to a Yamato or Bandai...... well there is just no comparison. Yamatos may not be the sturdiest things in the world (to some eyes) but the level of detail and refinement that goes into everyone is awesome. IMO you are defiantly getting what you pay for. Bandai is the same case although I am less impressed with the VF-25 DX line.

i just posted this because I just want yamato to atleast use that plastic thats as strong or stronger then steal that would certainly make a strong figure

[shadow strikers]

It's funny because I'm not into Transformers but the ones I do collect are the ones mentioned here because they remind me the most of the Yamato Macross Toys.

I have the MP-1 and every MP in fact except Grimlock... I really don't see theupgrade except in size. And I have BT's and Alts because they vehicle mode is so close to the actual cars and the bot mode are so comparable to their G1 versions.

I think they are good toys, I still prefer my Yammies.

studying a valk 1/60 2.0 that plastic i mentioned earlier that's super strong would work and dicast hinges to the chest plate and covers for the spaces in the valk while in robot mode forgive me if i said that i forgot the name of the valk while in robot mode

[thegunny]

To add some "intellectual content" to this thread (which is seemingly about nothing). I'm taking a Total Quality Management course this semester and I was really tempted to write my term paper on "The Exploding Shoulder: Why Grown Men like valkyries."

I have a greater respect now for anything that's mass-produced in any sort of factory because maintaining something at a specific quality standard - with 6 sigma deviation being the goal everyone wants (that's 3.4 defects per million.... lol Yamato has a bit ways to go ) - is truly a difficult undertaking.

We're learning about Taguchi's Loss Function and Signal to Noise Ratio in manufacturing now, and basically in any sort of shop environment there will always be X amount of factors you cannot control "the noise." The idea is to create your product design and processes in a way to minimize the impact of the "noise." When your stated purpose is to create something that looks artistically beautiful on a CG, this can be somewhat challenging.

Random variation is a nature of life. Even the butterfly effect can come into play. A guy sneezing in a remote observation post in Antartica can cause your valkyrie to magically implode.

Lovely theory that, but once you get out into the real world it's just that theory.

As long as the item lasts past warranty and the stock holders wallets are nice and fat most places couldn't care less. I soon had all the fluffy goodness that I learnt at uni flushed out once I was at the coal face.

Anyway back on topic.

Firstly, VFTF1 do you ever give a short answer although at least you use sentences. You must a dedicated student of Tolstoy.

Secondly, +1 for the punctuation. shadow strikers it's not hard to use the shift, caps and . , ? keys. Go on give it a try, you'll be amazed, people just might take time to read what you've got to say and even understand it

[Vi-RS]

i never had a valk problem in my life

i just posted this because I just want yamato to atleast use that plastic thats as strong or stronger then steal that would certainly make a strong figure

Both statements contradict each other.

studying a valk 1/60 2.0 that plastic i mentioned earlier that's super strong would work and dicast hinges to the chest plate and covers for the spaces in the valk while in robot mode forgive me if i said that i forgot the name of the valk while in robot mode

where is punctuation?

[promethuem5]

i just posted this because I just want yamato to atleast use that plastic thats as strong or stronger then steal that would certainly make a strong figure

By all means, when you find this plastic for use in toys, let us know... we'll make gazillions.

Until then, I think you oughta work on putting your thoughts into words and then text on the screen so you can effectively convey said ideas to the rest of us. As it stands, I'm just about certain some part of what you're trying to tell us is getting lost in 'translation'.

[azrael]

where is punctuation?

How about spelling and grammar...

Die Cast? Stronger plastics? What do you plan on doing? Throwing it against a wall? Re-enacting Hikaru's VF-1D crash through Artland's building? Die cast is somewhat expensive for small parts. Stronger plastics are expensive for mass production and quite infeasible for toys.

[Roy Focker]

Adjusted your Topic Title since it was pretty vague. See Section I, #12.

[Chronocidal]

i just posted this because I just want yamato to atleast use that plastic thats as strong or stronger then steal that would certainly make a strong figure

Like I said, read the SDF-1 thread. You want stronger plastic? SOMEONE HAS TO PAY FOR IT.

You want toys made of plastic stronger than steel??? You must be already living in the macross universe, cuz short of overtechnology, it's not going to happen IN A TOY.

If it were that simple, sure, they should just make every valk out of carbon fiber composite pieces, and you'd have your sturdy transformer-ish valk, at a price only slightly less than a new freaking BMW.

Materials that strong are usually reserved for military and industrial applications (ie, weapons, armor, automotive parts). You put that in a toy, and no one will be able to afford the stupid thing. Toy companies make toys because they want to make a profit off them, not cater to every hope and dream of potential customers. If they can't make a profit selling them, they simply won't make them at all.

I'll repeat, do some research. Read the SDF-1 thread, and see what effect using fancier materials has on toys. There are things called production costs that come into play, and they will KILL the product. The recent rage over the $2000 SDF-1 should make this abundantly clear.

And once more.. PLEASE use some freaking punctuation, spelling, grammar, anything to make your ideas more readable. There is no metal called "STEAL."

My apologies for this rant, I'm just in a pissy mood today. Laptop bit the dust due to crappy factory included software, and I might have to spend a couple hundred dollars to make the thing work like it should have to begin with.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Chronocidal

[VFTF1]

Ghost Train:

That sounds fascinating - I'm very interested. Could you please write more about your studies. Technically theGunny is right that it's all lovely theory, but in the end as long as product is moving, that's al that counts... But I have my own counter-theory to that - namely that due to the internet, we are seeing economic activity catering more and more to niche markets in every field, where there is high demand for precision and accuracy because the focus is on one thing.

As for Yamato reaching the 3.4 to 1 million ratio - Ghost Train: what if your company doesn't produce 1 million pieces? Yamato don't do a million pieces per valk - how does it look when you are producng in far lower quantities - like a thousand times lower?

As for long answers and Tolstoy:

I only read one piece by Tolstoy. I can't remember what it was called. It was pretty stupid. It was about a guy who owned land and was paranoid about robber and tresspassers so he patroled the land's perimeter without taking a break for food and water and ended up dying. Tolstoy's apparently brilliant message was that if you "have too much" then you end up wasting your life "defending it" which is why, apparently, it would have been better for everyone to have the proverbial 40 acres and a mule each equally. To me, it was such a ridiculous story that it prejudiced me forever against wanting to read anything by Tolstoy.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong. Somebody might be a big Tolstoy fan and suggest something to me - I'll look into it. I read that piece I mentioned in high school and haven't wanted to touch anything else by him ever since.

Ah - as for long answers...well... I guess I'm not too god at being short and sweet

Pete

[Salamander]

Actually no, the plastic quality is similar, but Hasbro TF subject their toy to more safety focused design, so they have no pointy sharp fin and only have weak spring loaded guns.

You, Sir, have never handled Europe-released G1, G2, and BeastWars toys. Hello missiles firing over 3 foot far at high velocity!

I have a small numbers of Yamato and TFs, and oddly enough only a TF suffered breakage - back hinge on a transmetal megatron broke when I was careless. A few of my Yamato suffers from lose hinge (YF-19, SV-51) or poor fit (1:60v1 VF-1A), but no pieces have broken yet.

TM Megatron is one of those TF toys that sadly suffers from a certain type of plastic (charged with gold plastic particles) that becomes extremely brittle over time...

[RDClip]

As for long answers and Tolstoy:

Pete

I think he was referencing 'War and Peace' being so damn long.

As for the main topic. I can't really understand why, if the OP never had a problem with any toy valks, why he would have so much conviction (albeit, poorly worded and thought out) about changing the materials. Really when on thinks about it Yamato had had more successes than failures in the durability department. The V1 1/60s, 1/48, and Mac+ valks have generally been problem free and they at least made an effort to fix some of the problems with the Mac0 and V2 1/60 valks(although it did take a while)

The only company that you can really criticize for constantly making shoddy breaking-prone toys is Toynami.

Oh and FYI, never ever put the title of your topic in all CAPS, it kinda devalues anything you have to say.(and when i hear it in my head i imagine someone screaming it )

[Mog]

The topic, as it is for every single thread in the Toys section, is that yamato sucks. This particular sub topic is, "why can't they be more like hasbro?"

So, we'd want Yamato to be more like Hasbro by making toys based on a crappy derivative of Macross, by pissing on years of backstory and history in favor of making ONLY toys to support their latest blockbuster Hollywood movie, and by alienating the original fans of Macross (much like Hasbro's current treatment of Transformers and GI Joe fans). Got it.

Or should Yamato mimic Hasbro's "wonderful" way of loading heaps of pegwarmers upon us, failing to acknowledge how its distribution of figures has been an absolute crapshoot, and deciding to kill a fairly popular subline because of their own stupid decisions and case assortments?

Yeah. . . I'm not exactly a fan of Hasbro's more recent decisions.

Back on topic, although materials are an important factor to us Macross fans, most of us would agree that it has to be balanced with lineart accuracy in all three modes, sufficient articulation to pull off cool poses (especially poses that can be done without the aid of a stand), minimal kibble, and of course, PRICE.

[Salamander]

Like I said, read the SDF-1 thread. You want stronger plastic? SOMEONE HAS TO PAY FOR IT.

Gosh. Of course, an alternate choice could be to choose less brittle plastic, which doesn't need to cost more. I mean, I have never seen a chunky monkey with shoulders that shatter like those on many of Yamato's products (unscrewed, yes. shatter? no.).

You want toys made of plastic stronger than steel??? You must be already living in the macross universe, cuz short of overtechnology, it's not going to happen IN A TOY.

Lots of plastics are stronger than steel, in a sense. Of course, it depends on the type of steel you're talking about. I mean, I use high-quality steel knives for lab work, but those will still shatter if they are bend. Other steel tools will bend (and can be bend back up to a degree), but are made from considerably softer steel and might get damaged by applying relatively little force. Likewise, if I use the wrong type of plastic container to hold aggressive fluids, the container will be damaged and might shatter. Flexible plastic is generally better to hold nasty solvents like xylene, hard plastic usually doesn't like the solvent, nor any applied heat. The same containers happily withstand the very nasty fixative (strong acid + formaldehyde) I use, while that fixative will damage (corrode) the aforementioned high-quality steel knives...

If it were that simple, sure, they should just make every valk out of carbon fiber composite pieces, and you'd have your sturdy transformer-ish valk, at a price only slightly less than a new freaking BMW.

Eh, no. It does look like a Valkyrie contains about as much plastic as, let's say, a competition R/C buggy, while the engineering is also comparable (in fact, the buggy needs to be more wear-proof...). Competition-grade R/C buggies start at about 300-400 bucks a piece. Not that much more than a 200-dollar Yamato Valk.

Materials that strong are usually reserved for military and industrial applications (ie, weapons, armor, automotive parts). You put that in a toy, and no one will be able to afford the stupid thing. Toy companies make toys because they want to make a profit off them, not cater to every hope and dream of potential customers. If they can't make a profit selling them, they simply won't make them at all.

See above. I suggest you start at Tamiya, and from there move on to companies like Associated, Losi, Kyosho, etc. Of course, they likely have larger production runs than any Yamato Valk, except for their really high-end products.

I'll repeat, do some research. Read the SDF-1 thread, and see what effect using fancier materials has on toys. There are things called production costs that come into play, and they will KILL the product. The recent rage over the $2000 SDF-1 should make this abundantly clear.

The high cost of the SDF-1 can easily be explained by Yamato having no previous experience in manufacturing fiber-reinforced plastic, molds for that kind of molding being expensive, choosing to make a limited release item in too large a scale (as in 1:2000), etc.

It would help a lot of people on here if their opinions were at least a little bit more informed.

[Knightdramon]

Almost read the whole thing...[besides the topic starter's replies because I wouldn't bother with the put-together sentences of a seemingly 9 year old]

You people do realize that you're being made fun of in almost every other anime\robot community for your insistence in line-art accuracy. Every other sentence in every other paragraph in every other reply in every thread is about making detailed valkyries with extreme line-art accuracy. Have you seen that on VF-1S [DYRL ver] the nosecone in batroid mode is slanting forward? The only line-art accurate toy for that I've seen so far is the revoltech valkyries.

Back on topic, I think the topic creator doesn't really know what he wants to ask for. I believe that current yamato valkyries are made of similar, if not the same plastic TYPES [not damn quality again] as most transformers. Check the boxes of your figures and usually there's a detailed [albeit in japanese] list of plastic types and other materials used. Most of those read POM, ABS which are two of the most common plastic types used for toys [my field is limited, though, to gundam models, macross, SOC and transformers].

Similarly, transformers fans get about 25-30 new moulds per year, while Yamato hasn't made a new base valkyrie mould since the VF-11B or VF-1S 2.0 [can't remember which came first]. The VF-22S figures count as retools, before you jump on me. For their 1/60 DX line, Bandai has made one mould [with the VF-27 being the second] with different head sculpts.

This thing about plastic quality is, I'm afraid, the bothersome child of TF fans back in 2007, when movie figures felt "cheaper". I've handled almost 70% of the 2007 movie line and all of its successors, and almost all Yamato macross figures [with the exception of the VF-11B]. Both are equally good, trust me.

VFTF-1, I don't know which figures you've handled, but with the exception of armada and energon, transformers figures became better with each line. Unless you had more around, I've noticed you sold your TF re-issue collection, which is, in my opinion, crappy 25 year old figures that wouldn't hold a candle to today's specimens. Not trying to start a war or anything, I'm just stating that.

[eugimon]

yes, how dare we want our toys to actually look like the anime. I guess this is why whenever takara releases a new MP all the tranny fans let out a collective yawn?

[hirohawa]

Transformers suck balls.

Thank God Yamato was a small company that had something to prove when they got the Macross license.

Edited November 24, 2009 by hirohawa