The Fourth Kind

[Vepariga]

The problem is we have working theories on how the pyramids were built. We have evidence of the evolution of the form and the techniques used to build them. Same for the pyramid forms in South America. We have egyptian records on food production, we know where the rock was quarried... we have all this information and yet the conspiracy theorists keep claiming that it's "impossible" for ancient egyptians to have built the pyramids.

Yet when we have a euro mega work, stonehenge, it's all about how it was a prehistoric religious artifact and not some alien built something or other.

There is actually Little evidence of human-built pyramids, There is no evidence or writings of the construction of the giza pyramids ,so the theory of ramps being used by thousands of slaves to pull a 4 ton slab up on rolling logs is widely accepted,but I dont believe it for a second. In fact,It would have taken more effort to construct the ramp then the pyramid itself,yet there is no evidence of a ramp around the area,stones that heavy would have sunk in the ramp anyway and thousands of slaves? not in 20 years could have these pyramids been constructed by mere men,the stones lie about 1 inch away from eachother, and its been proven that inside was evidence of radio-active sand. Humans did not build these alone.

I believe the masses believe that humans built them becuase they dont want to worship something that could have been constructed by another race which makes us feel inferior.

Edited November 17, 2009 by Vepariga

[Ghost Train]

Hey buddy,

Don't assume I believe in alien/human intervention theories, just because I disagree about it being a form of racism.

Um.... I guess I took the part about "First of all, that's not true. There are plenty of theories involving Area 51 and how many modern day technologies, weapons systems, propulsion, etc...were all reverse engineered tech from the Roswell crash" ... a bit too literally? I fail to comprehend why you brought this up, but... anyways, I'm sorry?

Again, the main theory is that alien intervention pre-dated the Sumerians. Most of the theories actually involve homo sapiens being a synthesized race. Hybrids of homo errectus and alien DNA. According to the popular theory, alien intervention would've been occuring maybe up to hundreds of thousands of years before the Sumerians. Some theories I've read claim the Sumerians and Mayans were part of the phase out strategy. Aliens decided to leave the planet and gave culture to the slave races around the globe before departing. ...Again, not a racist theory if it involves planting the genetic seeds and cultures of every race.

And again, don't assume I believe in these theories.

I just don't believe they are racist until you can find me Western/Euro equivalents to the Giza pyramids that UFO/Alien believers should by all means be associating with alien intervention if not for the supposed racist-factor.

Assuming you don't believe in this (so not addressed to Vic, just generally picking this dumb theory apart) - I'm not going to write a 5 paragraph essay on natural selection and speciation which I think clearly explains how the current flora and fauna of this planet came to be. Instead I will use this example: If your car fails to start, do you blame it on some obscure phenomena, on say, the current average rainfall in Europe? No. Sure, by some unusual causality of the butterfly effect this could be a factor, though the probability that both are related is very low.

To me, a person with average education and intelligence, the most probable explanation of something there is poor historical record on ie. the construction of the pyramids, is not alien intervention. There are probably many explanations and theories. To just completely write-off something that we don't understand as the work of ET's is anti-intellectual and contrary to the traits that did enable scientists/engineers/scholars figure out important stuff. I think if Newton, who lived in a not so progressive era, would have just written off physics as simply a given from a higher power, we would still be in a much darker age now.

I apply the label of racist to any ignorant mofo. Just because there are over 9,000 google results for something does not make it accurate or non-discriminatory. I'm sure quite a few thousands of Americans in the 19th century supported slavery, and quite a few thousands of South Africans who supported apartheid.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ghost Train

[Vic Mancini]

Um.... I guess I took the part about "First of all, that's not true. There are plenty of theories involving Area 51 and how many modern day technologies, weapons systems, propulsion, etc...were all reverse engineered tech from the Roswell crash" ... a bit too literally? I fail to comprehend why you brought this up, but... anyways, I'm sorry?

It was in response about what you said about anything built by a non-euro/western civilization is attributed to aliens. People have alien-connection theories to modern day western technologies, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51

Scroll down to the "UFO and other conspiracy theories concerning Area 51".

That and we've already established that google has over 2 million hits for alien + Stonehenge, (almost 1/3 as many as Giza), and that's a European monument.

So there you go...both a North American and a European example of mass alien connection theories, despite them both being far easier to debunk than Giza. Skin colour and discrimination have nothing to do with it, so far. In fact I find the racism accusation completely baseless. Not even one example of something that is Euro/Western, and semi-unexplainable, has been provided as something that should/would have a large share of alien-connections if not for it's Euro/Western origin.

[Ghost Train]

It was in response about what you said about anything built by a non-euro/western civilization is attributed to aliens. People have alien-connection theories to modern day western technologies, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51

Scroll down to the "UFO and other conspiracy theories concerning Area 51".

That and we've already established that google has over 2 million hits for alien + Stonehenge, (almost 1/3 as many as Giza), and that's a European monument.

So there you go...both a North American and a European example of mass alien connection theories, despite them both being far easier to debunk than Giza. Skin colour and discrimination have nothing to do with it, so far. In fact I find the racism accusation completely baseless. Not even one example of something that is Euro/Western, and semi-unexplainable, has been provided as something that should/would have a large share of alien-connections if not for it's Euro/Western origin.

The treatment of Stonehenge is a prime example of what I'm talking about. (I'm not narrowly framing this whole thing as a Anglo/European vs. the world the debate.) Like the Egyptians and other ancient cultures, their historical record is incomplete, yet people insist that they were incapable of lugging a few stones into a specific formation that align to something in the sky.

Since the original inhabitants of the British isles are essentially human with the same basic mental faculties as everyone else in the world, why is it the case that -absent a historical record - ET's are somehow involved? That, is the issue here.

So I guess:

(A)- Racist

(B)- Ignorant

lol take your pick, in my opinion they are one of the same or a subset of each other.

And please lol stop with the Google count. Based on the amount of sheer trash that is on the internet, the only thing that reflects is the sheer ignorance of internet users who have somehow managed to learn HTML.

[Freiflug88]

Been watching too many episodes of the X-Files. What proof is there that aliens exist and are here amongst us? Not trying to start a shitfight here and I am not namecalling, I just think that if we are going to get serious about talking about topics like this, the people putting the ideas forward need more evidence than "UFO researchers almost unanimously support this notion", which to me reads like a load of crap.

I think that it is possible to have a relatively serious discussion about the existence of aliens in the universe in general and whether or not they have had contact/are in contact with humans, I like to try to have an open mind. But I also think it is good to discuss a topic like this with an approach that is as rational and scientific as possible.

So, we start with "What hard evidence is there that humans have encountered alien species?"

Taksraven

(The mods will probably try to kill this discussion)

I will point out that I was giving Vepariga, who was interested in the matter, my opinion and not trying to waste my time converting Macross World users into UFO believers. Honestly I can't even convince my own family the hazards of fluride, a well documented industrial waste, in their drinking water so I know its pointless to convince people I don't even know on the internet about UFOs.

If your really interested in hard evidence though here you go.

The "Alien Baby" (which has been my avatar for quite awhile) from Mexico which was found to have characteristics of lizards and humans, but inconclusive DNA results due to decay.

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/...-be-solved.html

The "Star Child" Skull which while found to have human mitochondrial DNA from a mother, its father's DNA is inconclusive and it has far too many differences in its structure to simply be labeled a product of a birth defect.

Now crazy as the notion of Alien genetic manipulation of early man sounds their is very compelling evidence for it. Consider the Mitochondrial Eve theory. Supposedly about 250,000 years ago modern man were born from our most recent common ancestors the Mitochondiral Eves in Africa. What science hasn't adequately explained is how or why modern humans suddenly become are so vastly different as a result of a drastic change in chromosomes.

For one humans have 46 chromosomes while all other primates have 48 chromosomes and nature probably wouldn't even consider just dropping two whole chromosomes with all that vital DNA strands in them. According to researchers the chromosomes weren't lost, instead mitochondrial Eves in Africa were born with not one, but two centric fusions resulting in 46 chromosomes as an evolution. Which makes absolutely ZERO evolutionary sense when you consider tht newborns in every animal that has a single chromosome off plus or minus is born has birth defects, is infertile, and will die an early death as mother nature's cruel but effective way to prevent future generations of offspring from being defective. Yet scientists tell us that somehow a Mitochondrial Eve with two less chromosomes mated with male primates still possessing 48 chromosomes and gave birth to healthy fertile children that inherited 46 chromosomes and become our common ancestors. Scientifically speaking this scenario is absolutely impossible! Why? Mitochrondial eve's eggs would have 23 chomosomes due to chromosome division and be very incompatible with all her mates who possessed 24 chromosomes in their sperm. Sure she could bear some children, but they would all have 47 chromosomes and suffer from Down Syndrome and very few of them would be fertile. While Down Syndrome does happen today, by no means would our primal ancestors thrive and reproduce if they all suffered from Down Sydrome.

In short any man or woman missing a chromosome or two would not be an "evolution," but a genetic defect that should have had no offspring according to mother nature. Yet somehow our common ancestors emerged from South Africa with 46 chromosomes, their was a huge price to this though. When the National Human Genome Research Institute researchers finished mapping the human genome back in 2003 they found that humans have only around 25,000 individual genes, barely more then a tapeworm that has 20,000 and much smaller then the genomes of other complex animals that have 65,000 to 100,000 genes. Despite the fact that our bodies have a much smaller number of genes to work with our genes are more volatile and subject to mutations then other primates:

A team of biochemists from UC Riverside published a paper in the June 11 issue of the Journal of Molecular Biology that gives one explanation for why humans and primates are so closely related genetically, but so clearly different biologically and intellectually.

It is an established fact that 98 percent of the DNA, or the code of life, is exactly the same between humans and chimpanzees. So the key to what it means to be human resides in that other 2 percent.

According to Achilles Dugaiczyk, professor of Biochemistry at UCR, one important factor resides in something called Alu DNA repeats, sometimes called "junk DNA." These little understood sections of DNA are volatile, and prone to sudden mutations, or genomic rearrangements. At times the results are beneficial in that they give rise to new proteins or an altered gene regulation. Sometimes the mutations result in the growth of a cancer tumor, or some other genetic defect.

The team, which also included Rosaleen Gibbons, Lars J. Dugaiczyk, Thomas Girke, Brian Duistermars and Rita Zielinski, identified over 2,200 new human specific Alu DNA repeats that are absent from the chimpanzee and most likely other primates.

"The explosive expansion of the DNA repeats and the resulting restructuring of our genetic code may be the clue to what makes us human," Dugaiczyk said. "During the same amount of time, humans accumulated more genetic novelties than chimpanzees, making the human/chimpanzee genetic distance larger than that between the chimpanzee and gorilla."

This chemical analysis of DNA structures also showed something else. The spread of the Alu DNA repeats was written into the chemistry of human chromosomes. The process was not random, Dugaiczyk said, and it was not subject to an environmental "natural selection," separating winners and losers as theorized by Darwin.

I

Believe what you want Taksraven, but personally I believe the crazy theory that aliens with 46 chromosomes genetically fused chromosomes in human embryos to have 23 chromosome to be compatible with their sperm for creating alien-human hybrids as workers to mine valuable resources all over the globe sounds a bit more scientifically plausible then natural human evolution dropping or fusing two perfectly good chromosomes in males and females, leak 10s of thousands of primate genes from the gene pool, and create over 2,200 unique and volatile genes found in no other animal on the planet in one single abrupt evolutionary cycle.

Now as for the Pyramid talk guys that you guys got all excited about I am going to have to burst your bubble with the simple truth: Big stone blocks can easily be moved utilizing nothing more then physics and wooden planks.

http://www.theforgottentechnology.com/newpage1.

[VFTF1]

Now crazy as the notion of Alien genetic manipulation of early man sounds their is very compelling evidence for it

Of course there is. A naked Sara Nome singing in French has always been compelling to me

Seriously though - I think that discussions of extraterrestrial life should never be a matter of "converting" people to "believe" one view or another.

Maybe if you all stepped back and looked at it from the perspective of a less controversial subject: namely the question of whether or not there is water on the moon and if so, what could that imply?

Nowadays, it is widely accepted that there is water on the moon. NASA has stated they found it, and the Indian space agency also discovered it.

But stretching back to even before the NASA moon missions, there was great speculation on this subject, and I remember that, for example, the comic book Tintin on the Moon had a scene where Tintin found ice.

Now it's just a given - but 10 years or 40 years ago - if you argued to vehemently that there was water on the moon...you were a possible loon

I'm just saying - in science, you can never be 100% sure, and Freiflug88 is just presenting what he considers evidence and a personal experience. Arguing against somebody's personal experience is as futile as arguing against somebody's beliefs in general.

Much better to just let the various view points be expressed and look at them critically.

In any case - I'm having fun reading this thread and all the stuff people are talking about and hope it continues this way and doesn't become a slugfest where people imply others are UFO loons

Pete

[Vepariga]

just to add on to freiflug88 on alien hybrids,Ive actually read and watched alot of abductee accounts where they have been taken twice ,usually the second time is months later and in this time they recall being shown a child,and being told that its theirs. The strange thing is that many people have said the same thing has happened to them,even countrys apart. its interesting no doubt.

[Ghost Train]

Freiflug -

Your understanding of mitochondrial Eve is incorrect. She is the Most Recent Common Ancestor of all humans, which is different than "The Female Ancestor of all Humans" or "The only person in the world with 46 chromosomes." She was not the only Homo sapiens sapeins in the world at the time, and most likely mated with other humans with 46 chromosomes as well.

Src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor

The MRCA is really an artificial construct that geneticists came up with to better track the quirkiness of Mitochondrial DNA. You only get mtDNA from your mother, unlike your nuclear DNA which is a mishmash between the DNA of your parents. As a result, it is possible for MtDNA lines to just die over time. If a family produced only male offspring, there would be no mtDNA passed, or if a female never had children the same would result. Therefore, you can really only go back so much back in time.

In other words, the mtDNA of Eve just so happens to be the only surviving line of mtDNA, it does not mean she was the only modern human woman with 46 chromosomes alive at the time!

As you already pointed out, under normal circumstances, individuals with +/- 1 chromosomes are subject to illness such as Down Syndrome in the case of +1. Therefore, it makes no logical sense that she mated with males that did not posses 46 chromosomes and spawned a relatively successful offspring that are our ancestors. Furthermore, she could not have been the only the only modern human at the time, as a 1 woman:x male ratio is not a sufficiently diverse enough population gene pool to sustain a species.

Therefore, Mitochondrial Eve was just 1 woman in a population of normal humans with lots of females and males with 46 chromosomes.

just to add on to freiflug88 on alien hybrids,Ive actually read and watched alot of abductee accounts where they have been taken twice ,usually the second time is months later and in this time they recall being shown a child,and being told that its theirs. The strange thing is that many people have said the same thing has happened to them,even countrys apart. its interesting no doubt.

lol, did they ask for child support?

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ghost Train

[Vic Mancini]

And please lol stop with the Google count. Based on the amount of sheer trash that is on the internet, the only thing that reflects is the sheer ignorance of internet users who have somehow managed to learn HTML.

The argument isn't about the validity of internet users, the argument is whether or not internet users are discriminatory. 2.2 million hits on Google proves that the ignorance out there is not discriminatory/racist.

Racism and ignorance are not the same thing...at all. Racism can come from ignorance, but you can't use the two words interchangeably.

[Freiflug88]

-Ghost Train

I understood that Mitochondiral Eve was theoretical and not just a single woman that is why I mentioned them as "Mitochondrial Eves" as plural. What I am getting at though is that the Mitochrodiral Eve is just a BS theory to dodge the issue as to how or why modern humans with only 46 chromosomes showed up in the first place about 250,000 years.

My issue is that how did the "population of normal humans with lots of females and males with 46 chromosomes ever be born to the exist in the first place from a populations of humans with 48 chromosomes? How would you explain how humans went through this so called "evolutionary" transformation of losing 2 whole chromosomes of DNA yet at the same time gain a more developed throat capable of complex speech, a brain with 4 times the surface area, and as I mentioned before 2,200 volatile genes not found in other primates, while all the other primates on earth have kept their 48 chromosomes and are practically the same as now as they were 250,000 years ago when modern humans emerged?

[Ghost Train]

-Ghost Train

I understood that Mitochondiral Eve was theoretical and not just a single woman that is why I mentioned them as "Mitochondrial Eves" as plural. What I am getting at though is that the Mitochrodiral Eve is just a BS theory to dodge the issue as to how or why modern humans with only 46 chromosomes showed up in the first place about 250,000 years.

My issue is that how did the "population of normal humans with lots of females and males with 46 chromosomes ever be born to the exist in the first place from a populations of humans with 48 chromosomes? How would you explain how humans went through this so called "evolutionary" transformation of losing 2 whole chromosomes of DNA yet at the same time gain a more developed throat capable of complex speech, a brain with 4 times the surface area, and as I mentioned before 2,200 volatile genes not found in other primates, while all the other primates on earth have kept their 48 chromosomes and are practically the same as now as they were 250,000 years ago when modern humans emerged?

Ok... then how do you explain that dogs are different than cats, that a hippo is different than a whale. Is the whole diversity of the planet a result of alien intervention? I think that's a pretty bold claim.

In your earlier example you referenced giant modern apes, and the fact that they have 2 extra chromosomes... big deal, my cat has 38 chromosomes and coincidentally so does a pig. Chimps and other great apes (but chimps in particular) are our nearest relative, but that does not mean that they were the direct evolutionary link to humans. There have been many iterations of the homo genus - homo erectus, homo habilis, homo neanderthalensis, etc, we know for a fact that neandertahlensis co-existed with modern humans in Europe up to a few hundred thousands of years ago when they suddenly went extinct. All of these "variations" were closer genetically to modern Homo Sapiens than modern apes. Due to environmental pressure however, only Homo sapiens survived.

Therefore, I don't think anyone tweaked the genome of the great apes to get humans. Rather, there was speciation that resulted in many advanced hominids of which only one type survived. Why would the "alien overlords" create such an imperfect plan lol? To have these factions fight one another for fun?

250,000 years is nothing in the scale of evolution, it does not surprise me that we still all have 46 chromosomes.... evolution is a process that takes millions of years through the combination of slow accumulations of germ line mutations (that can contribute to fusion/fission of chromosomes) and environmental pressures - disease, catastrophes, etc. If you look hard enough, you will find chromosomal mutations that caused dinosaurs to evolve into birds, and prokaryotic bacteria acquired eukaryotic characteristics - it's all part of evolution. So the fact that nothing has happened in 250k+ years is pretty normal to me, and indicative that evolution is the correct theory to explain diversity.

Mitochondrial Eve is not a BS theory, but it is even less useful when explained incorrectly like you just did (nothing personal). Evolution is not a perfect theory, but because of the work done by geneticists, biologists, and other scientists (who coincidentally studied, research, and work hard for many years vs. getting their degree from google) it sure as hell makes more sense and can stand the lithmus test better than, "OMG IT MUST BE TEH ALIENS".

The argument isn't about the validity of internet users, the argument is whether or not internet users are discriminatory. 2.2 million hits on Google proves that the ignorance out there is not discriminatory/racist.

Racism and ignorance are not the same thing...at all. Racism can come from ignorance, but you can't use the two words interchangeably.

To me it's the same. But my point here is that 2.2 Million hits on a search engine does not constitute as evidence in support or against anything. You fail to answer my original claim that the "number of hits" is independent of whether or not something is discriminatory or not. Tons of Americans supported slavery in the 19th century(quite a few million hits there!), was that not racist? I love a good debate, but please come up with something better than - "you're wrong because Google says so."

...A billion hits does not say that something is non-discriminatory

...A billion hits does not say that something is correct.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ghost Train

[Vic Mancini]

To me it's the same.

Well I almost don't know what to say to that because they aren't the same, and that's non-debatable fact. The ironic part of this is that you are ignorant about the definition of the word ignorant....which in your books makes you a racist. lol. This is one of the most bizarre debates I've ever had, by the way. I mean we're talking about racism, and it's as if you don't actually know what the word means.

But my point here is that 2.2 Million hits on a search engine does not constitute as evidence in support or against anything.

We are not even on the same page. Sigh.

I think you are under the impression that I'm using 2.2 million google hits in defense of the alien-connection theories that they support. Please read this part carefully: I do not believe aliens had anything to do with Stonehenge. I am not trying to convince you of that. I am not providing these 2.2 million hits about aliens/stonehenge as evidence that they built it. I am providing these hits as simple proof that the theories simply exist...misinformed and ignorant as they may be. That's all. There they are...2.2 million of them....right there.

If alien-connection theories were driven by racism then they wouldn't exist for Euro/western things like Stonehenge and modern-day American technology. That's what you were implying in the first post you made about racism. But they do exist. And the fact that they do (to such an amazingly large extent) is evidence of equality and non-descrimination. Alien theories do not discriminate between the Druids, Sumerians, Egyptians, Mayans, Caucasians, etc...etc... How do you not see this?

You fail to answer my original claim that the "number of hits" is independent of whether or not something is discriminatory or not. Tons of Americans supported slavery in the 19th century(quite a few million hits there!), was that not racist?

Of course it was racist because all the slaves were black and they were all owned by whites!

[jenius]

Wow... this thread got all sorts of crazy. I don't understand where the racism and Stonehenge talks came in. It doesn't work because Stonehenge isn't as overtly spectacular as the pyramids so it's much easier to dismiss as the work of some really determined early men. Not only is Stonehenge itself no where near as impressive as the pyramids but it also isn't surrounded by similar seemingly miraculous feats. That's why people don't rush to the "aliens did it" conclusion, not because people believe early Englanders were more industrious. Want more proof? Look at crop circles. Those happened over really large areas with frequency in England and Europe and people thought they were alien events and didn't chalk it up to "those industrious white folks."

There is evidence of massive ramps in Egypt related to pyramid construction. There are plenty of unanswered questions but as was pointed out earlier, there's more than enough evidence to rule out aliens... sorry.

PS - I have two conspiracy theories I like. 1) The Sphinx was possibly constructed by a civilization prior to the Egyptian civilization its largely credited to (and probably a civilization that birthed those later Egyptians). 2) Under the Sphinx is a room of some sort.

Edited November 18, 2009 by jenius

[Ghost Train]

Well I almost don't know what to say to that because they aren't the same, and that's non-debatable fact. The ironic part of this is that you are ignorant about the definition of the word ignorant....which in your books makes you a racist. lol. This is one of the most bizarre debates I've ever had, by the way. I mean we're talking about racism, and it's as if you don't actually know what the word means.

I concede that this was poorly developed on my part. I'm arguing in between study breaks! In the context of this situation (pyramids/stonehenge = aliens), ignorance = racism. I will just quote my original argument:

Since the original inhabitants of the British isles are essentially human with the same basic mental faculties as everyone else in the world, why is it the case that -absent a historical record - ET's are somehow involved? That, is the issue here.

Since there is no historical track record, these internet "historians" automatically assume that there is alien intervention... hmm...? why would they possibly think such a thing? Could it be because they feel that the Mayans, Egyptians, <insert civilization> were incapable of doing this on their own? That is the crux of my theory. There is lack of will to find out the truth and abundance of belief in inaccurate and incorrect facts (ignorance). There is a belief in the inferiority of said civilization (racism).

Just to make it clear: I'M NOT STATING THAT THIS IS YOUR OPINION LOL, I'm merely justifying my claim that racism = ignorance in the context of the "who built the pyramids" debate.

We are not even on the same page. Sigh.

I think you are under the impression that I'm using 2.2 million google hits in defense of the alien-connection theories that they support. Please read this part carefully: I do not believe aliens had anything to do with Stonehenge. I am not trying to convince you of that. I am not providing these 2.2 million hits about aliens/stonehenge as evidence that they built it. I am providing these hits as simple proof that the theories simply exist...misinformed and ignorant as they may be. That's all. There they are...2.2 million of them....right there.

I am perfectly aware of your stance and am perfectly aware that you are skeptical as I of the ET theory, and that you're not providing these 2.2 million hits in support of that. I was arguing this interesting statement you made:

2.2 million hits on Google proves that the ignorance out there is not discriminatory/racist.

... by stating that 2.2 million hits on Google DOES NOT PROVE that the claim is not discriminatory against certain cultures. Google returns is just not good evidence for anything, whether you're proving that it is discriminatory, it is not, or that coke is better than Pepsi.

I can summarize it like this, when was the last time you have seen hits on Google as solid evidence in either a court of law or serious academic paper? All I'm saying is that if you want to make your point - which is: the wealth of information about this subject proves discrimination is not a factor, (amirite, amirite?) then try and use some better evidence.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ghost Train

[Vic Mancini]

Wow... this thread got all sorts of crazy. I don't understand where the racism and Stonehenge talks came in. It doesn't work because Stonehenge isn't as overtly spectacular as the pyramids so it's much easier to dismiss as the work of some really determined early men. Not only is Stonehenge itself no where near as impressive as the pyramids but it also isn't surrounded by similar seemingly miraculous feats. That's why people don't rush to the "aliens did it" conclusion, not because people believe early Englanders were more industrious. Want more proof? Look at crop circles. Those happened over really large areas with frequency in England and Europe and people thought they were alien events and didn't chalk it up to "those industrious white folks."

^

^

^

This.

I've seen TV shows that proved that a small team of ordinary men with wooden A-frames and a little bit of rope could build up enough leverage to make a full-scale replica of Stonehenge, no problem. That's what it's debunked so much more easily than the pyramids which are still a bit of a mystery.

But the fact that 2.2 million hits worth of whackos still promote alien intervention in regards to Stonehenge, a European monument, is proof that it's not a racist issue. There is no exclusivity for non-white cultures being targeted as candidates for alien intervention. Whites are targets too. Race has nothing to do with it.

[Vic Mancini]

All I'm saying is that if you want to make your point - which is: the wealth of information about this subject proves discrimination is not a factor, (amirite, amirite?)

No. We're still not on the same page.

I don't know how else to explain it to you.

[taksraven]

I will point out that I was giving Vepariga, who was interested in the matter, my opinion and not trying to waste my time converting Macross World users into UFO believers. Honestly I can't even convince my own family the hazards of fluride, a well documented industrial waste, in their drinking water so I know its pointless to convince people I don't even know on the internet about UFOs.

If your really interested in hard evidence though here you go.

The "Alien Baby" (which has been my avatar for quite awhile) from Mexico which was found to have characteristics of lizards and humans, but inconclusive DNA results due to decay.

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/...-be-solved.html

The "Star Child" Skull which while found to have human mitochondrial DNA from a mother, its father's DNA is inconclusive and it has far too many differences in its structure to simply be labeled a product of a birth defect.

Now crazy as the notion of Alien genetic manipulation of early man sounds their is very compelling evidence for it. Consider the Mitochondrial Eve theory. Supposedly about 250,000 years ago modern man were born from our most recent common ancestors the Mitochondiral Eves in Africa. What science hasn't adequately explained is how or why modern humans suddenly become are so vastly different as a result of a drastic change in chromosomes.

For one humans have 46 chromosomes while all other primates have 48 chromosomes and nature probably wouldn't even consider just dropping two whole chromosomes with all that vital DNA strands in them. According to researchers the chromosomes weren't lost, instead mitochondrial Eves in Africa were born with not one, but two centric fusions resulting in 46 chromosomes as an evolution. Which makes absolutely ZERO evolutionary sense when you consider tht newborns in every animal that has a single chromosome off plus or minus is born has birth defects, is infertile, and will die an early death as mother nature's cruel but effective way to prevent future generations of offspring from being defective. Yet scientists tell us that somehow a Mitochondrial Eve with two less chromosomes mated with male primates still possessing 48 chromosomes and gave birth to healthy fertile children that inherited 46 chromosomes and become our common ancestors. Scientifically speaking this scenario is absolutely impossible! Why? Mitochrondial eve's eggs would have 23 chomosomes due to chromosome division and be very incompatible with all her mates who possessed 24 chromosomes in their sperm. Sure she could bear some children, but they would all have 47 chromosomes and suffer from Down Syndrome and very few of them would be fertile. While Down Syndrome does happen today, by no means would our primal ancestors thrive and reproduce if they all suffered from Down Sydrome.

In short any man or woman missing a chromosome or two would not be an "evolution," but a genetic defect that should have had no offspring according to mother nature. Yet somehow our common ancestors emerged from South Africa with 46 chromosomes, their was a huge price to this though. When the National Human Genome Research Institute researchers finished mapping the human genome back in 2003 they found that humans have only around 25,000 individual genes, barely more then a tapeworm that has 20,000 and much smaller then the genomes of other complex animals that have 65,000 to 100,000 genes. Despite the fact that our bodies have a much smaller number of genes to work with our genes are more volatile and subject to mutations then other primates:

Believe what you want Taksraven, but personally I believe the crazy theory that aliens with 46 chromosomes genetically fused chromosomes in human embryos to have 23 chromosome to be compatible with their sperm for creating alien-human hybrids as workers to mine valuable resources all over the globe sounds a bit more scientifically plausible then natural human evolution dropping or fusing two perfectly good chromosomes in males and females, leak 10s of thousands of primate genes from the gene pool, and create over 2,200 unique and volatile genes found in no other animal on the planet in one single abrupt evolutionary cycle.

OK, I don't have a university degree in genetics to argue this stuff at the level that you seem to be taking it, but do you have the genetics degree? Is anybody here a real expert on biology or genetics?? If there do seem to be gaps in any aspect of our evolution or biology, do we have to fill these gaps with "aliens" or do we wait for more research on the topic to come up with more realistic alternatives?

Taksraven

[Ghost Train]

Sentence: 2.2 million hits on Google proves that the ignorance out there is not discriminatory/racist.

2.2 million hits on Google: The # of hits returned on said search engine.

proves: to establish the truth or existence of something by providing evidence or argument

that the ignorance out there is not discriminatory/racist: Because of the high number of hits, that people are perhaps ignorant, but calling them racist is a bit too far.

Comments: Google is not good evidence to prove that it is not discriminatory, nor does it prove that it is. Please use a better source k?

/thread.

OK, I don't have a university degree in genetics to argue this stuff at the level that you seem to be taking it, but do you have the genetics degree? Is anybody here a real expert on biology or genetics?? If there do seem to be gaps in any aspect of our evolution or biology, do we have to fill these gaps with "aliens" or do we wait for more research on the topic to come up with more realistic alternatives?

I got a 29 on my MCAT (medical school admissions tests here in the US, 10 on biological sciences section which has substantial genetics components, which would have gotten me into med school) - but decided upon a different career. Did UG research for a genetics professor researching mtDNA. I can explain terminal dogma. Yes - research > filling gaps with aliens.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Ghost Train

[Vic Mancini]

Sentence: 2.2 million hits on Google proves that the ignorance out there is not discriminatory/racist.

2.2 million hits on Google: The # of hits returned on said search engine.

proves: to establish the truth or existence of something by providing evidence or argument

that the ignorance out there is not discriminatory/racist: Because of the high number of hits, that people are perhaps ignorant, but calling them racist is a bit too far.

Comments: Google is not good evidence to prove that it is not discriminatory, nor does it prove that it is. Please use a better source k?

/thread.

Here's the best way I can explain it.

Slavery = not racist.

Slavery (when all the slaves are chosen for their ethnicity) = racist.

^

^

*The "wealth of information" or the fact that Americans supported it, or whatever you're talking about, has nothing to do with whether it's racist or not.

Alien intervention theories = Not racist.

Alien intervention theories (when they only involve certain ethnicities) = racist.

Ergo: Since alien intervention theories involve ALL ethnicities and don't discriminate against any, there...is...no...racism.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Vic Mancini

[azrael]

I thought we told you people the cut the racist/discrimination/genetics-yapping. It's just thread about a frakin movie.

[eriku]

So...does Milla get her t*ts out in this film?

[Freiflug88]

- Ghost Train

I never said anything about diversity of the planet being caused by aliens or anything being caused by aliens. Diversity does happen naturally, but it is very gradual unlike the vast split from Homo Sapiens and neanderthals. You known just watch Lloyd Pyes "Human Origins : Intervention Theory" on youtube to see for yourself

I thought we told you people the cut the racist/discrimination/genetics-yapping. It's just thread about a frakin movie.

Well unfortunately, your talking to a bunch of us nerds who get worked up over legal disputes to frakin 80s anime so...

[taksraven]

Taksraven

[505thAirborne]

Taksraven

I've got my Life preserver ready!!!

[Twoducks]

So aliens have the technology to travel the stars and yet they study specimens from Earth using methods no better than a biologist shooting a monkey with a tranquilizer gun. Sloopy work Mr. ET

If they want to make something more original than a fake re-enactment about drunken Alaskan's fantasies, they should make a movie about animals that have been studied by humans.

Turtle: “I hear that there are higher beings experimenting with us”.

Sea lion: “Hell yeah. One time I see this light and them ¡BAM! I wake up with this huge antennae strapped to my back. My ass also hurts; they probably shoved something in there too”.