The MW rewatches M7 together Thread

[Marzan]

Seeing Akiko is a welcomed portion of the series. She's one of my favorite women for the series,,, at least until another character by the name of Rex comes in a bit.

Akiko is a great yet underdeveloped character in Macross 7.

And beautiful, sexy Rex....I'll just wait till she appears to unload what I have to say!

[Marzan]

Now... this is good. Let's keep track of what songs Bassara sings, when he sings them, and what circumstances cause him to think them up.

Certainly I think we can say that a bit of frustration mixed with despair led to the switch from Planet Dance to My Soul For You

?

Pete

Good idea. Let's see if there is some real relationship between the songs being sung and Basara's state of mind.

[Agent ONE]

...

Besides, you'd only need to watch 1 episode a week And just look at how buff Bassara is It's obvious he works out just like you (and me thanks to your inspiration for that matter)

..

Hmm. I live in San Francisco man. I see plenty of flaming gay dudes that work out.

[VF5SS]

Stop posting in this thread.

[Agent ONE]

Stop posting in this thread.

The thread starter (Pete) specifically asked for my participation in this thread in the STARTING POST. So... If YOU don't like it, maybe YOU should leave.

[azrael]

Could we not have the pro/anti-M7-drama in this thread? Please?

Now go about your business.

[Gubaba]

Could we not have the pro/anti-M7-drama in this thread? Please?

Now go about your business.

...says the guy whose avatar shows the LAMEST OF THE LAME characters in Macross 7.

[VFTF1]

Stop posting in this thread.

Hey - please leave Agent One alone, ok? He's welcome to post in this thread. I really want anti-M7 people to participate, and Agent One has not written anything or done anything that is inflamatory, so please let him participate.

Second of all - there are better ways to debate than to tell people you don't agree with to go away.

The thread starter (Pete) specifically asked for my participation in this thread in the STARTING POST. So... If YOU don't like it, maybe YOU should leave.

Yes - I specifically asked for your participation and I am happy you are participating. Please don't get discouraged - but don't ask other people to leave either

I think your status as a big time anti M7 guy makes your participation totally necessary - and I look forward to your continued commentary.

Hmm. I live in San Francisco man. I see plenty of flaming gay dudes that work out.

Ah - but do they have young cute girls with long pink hair and blonde vixens riding motormbikes chasing after them?

..says the guy whose avatar shows the LAMEST OF THE LAME characters in Macross 7.

Says the guy who...oh never mind - you know

AAAAAAAAAAANYWAYS!!

STOP FIGHTING AND ASKING EACHOTHER TO LEAVE!!

This thread should be a welcoming place to everyone.

If you LOVE Bassara - then you should emulate him and want to move the hearts of your enemies!

So let Agent One stay and post - and make him feel welcome! Or I'll eat you. Growl. Roar.

Come on guys - be nice to Agent One. Humor him and get him involved and be happy he's involved himself.

BOMBA!

Pete

Edited November 25, 2009 by VFTF1

[Agent ONE]

...

Ah - but do they have young cute girls with long pink hair and blonde vixens riding motormbikes chasing after them?

...

At a distance it would seem that way, but they are actually men.

[VFTF1]

Well, Macross women have a tendency to be very manly - but that's just a facade...

Anyways - I personally would be particularly interested in your specific views of what's wrong with these first three episodes that we're discussing?

Since we're kind of on the subject of Bassara looking like a gay body builder from San Fransisco - then let's use Agent One's observation constructively and think also about the following:

What do you think of the character designs? I mean - one of the things that honestly made it hard for me to get into M7 in the beginning - and we are talking about the beginning here since we're only three episodes into the series - was the character design; and specifically the outfits that Fire Bomber, especially Bassara, wears.

I mean - is that thing a flight suit? Do those globes on his shoulders emit a light show for when he sings or reflect strobe lights or disco lights? And look at his shirt underneath - it reminds me of Borat's "fishnet underwear."

I love Bassara, I love his music, but I think he and Mylene dress ....different...to say the least. And his boots ...are those knee length boots or is it an optical illusion since it seems the boots and pants are one?

What do people think of how the characters dress?

Out of concert, I really like Mylene (like in that butt shot). She looks like a good looking 80s chick, which is fine.

As for Out of COncert Bassara .... he looks...well... he looks a little bit like a nerdy dorky 80s otaku? I dunno...the tight pants lacking in bell bottoms and the fact that he tucks in his green wife beater... very strange fashion choices. IS it a fashion choice - or is it just part of his grunge lifestyle (grunge, judging from where he lives and how).

Does Bassara look like a gay bodybuilder from San Fransisco - or perhaps you found the look/design of the characters so appealing that it was one of the things that turned you on?

Horonable mention:

Veffidas: I just don't like the open tummy shirt, the pale skin combined with green hair...it's like the Joker on crack.

Rey: Whenever I see him, I wonder to myself: Poor Beebop. Rey clearly beat up Beebop from TMNT and stole his threads

Gamlin .... dresses preppy - he's like Mr. Rogers with no color coordination.

Milia: ATROCIOUS outfits. I mean - seriously. That little French cap thing the fruffy flowery knee length skirts. The purple mixed with her green hair -and her hair, mind you, is terrible. It's the hair of a middle aged woman who has had her sex and children and decides to grow old and stop being attractive. No wonder Max lives in seperation from her.

Max, on the other hand - well - his uniform is ok... but we never see him out of uniform do we?

In any event - I always had mixed reactions to the character designs. I got over it as soon as I got into the story and the music and now I just accept it... but certainly I MUCH prefer the fashion designs in Macross Frontier and SDFM TV/DYRL.

Pete

Edited November 25, 2009 by VFTF1

[David Hingtgen]

Milia in a flightsuit in M7 looks better than Milia in a flightsuit in SDF:M though. (seriously, Macross should put as many chicks as possible in flightsuits--they always look good---even Sheryl did it a few times)

[VFTF1]

Well yeah -

I'm not saying Milia herself looks bad, but my main gripe is the ugly outfit she wears in episode 2, which she happens to repeatedly use in her capacity as mayor.

I know it's a matter of taste, so there's no point arguing about it in the sense of finding who's "right" or "wrong" - but it is something I wonder about... It's like...the late 80s/early 90s were a fashion nightmare in my mind. I don't know if anybody else remembers this, but in the early 90s they were making every attempt possible to be "21st century" because it was just around the corner and to be "futuristic" because..well...the future was a couple years away...and the end result of this was some pretty outrageous fashion trends.

Then again, it could just be because back then I remember Vanilla Ice being popular, as well as MC Hammer...

Pete

[David Hingtgen]

Yes, many outfits in M7 suck, especially Milia's mayoral one.

[Agent ONE]

Yes, many outfits in M7 suck, especially Milia's mayoral one.

Were you thinking of Valkyries with boobs also... I wouldn't classify those as outfits. But yes, totally stupid also.

[VFTF1]

Ah yes - but please wait until we get to the appropriate episode where that shows up to rant about it

However- good point - we can also discuss customized civilian Valkyrie.

I agree that it IS pretty stupid- except it also makes a perverse amount of sense because how would you expect someone who dresses like Mylene does in concert to stylize her Valkyrie?

The customized Valkyrie at least fit their pilots insofar as they dress wierd AND they fly wierd.

But maybe we should try to look at it from the point of view of alien soul-sucking vampires and space whales? To them, the Fire Bomber valkyrie are not more or less esthetically whacko than the VF-22S Sturmvogel II (which itself is based on the Quedlen Rau).

But - yeah good point.

It's just that technically since we haven't gotten there yet, let's wait with getting deeper into it. But yes - we should definitely consider the Valk designs for Fire Bomber's squadron.

Pete

[Hiryu]

Basara's character design imo sucks bad, to put it simply. He looks nothing like a pilot or a rock star. I have nothing against glasses but the best pilots should have 20 20 or close vision and I refuse to believe that it's possible to have good peripheral vision with the frames he uses. But really, just the look of him annoys me.

Honestly, I think Ozma would make a better Basara. He looks much cooler and he's got attitude. I can totally picture him with a guitar and and we all know he's a bad-ass pilot. That would be awesome and so much more entertaining to watch..

[VFTF1]

I have nothing against glasses but the best pilots should have 20 20 or close vision and I refuse to believe that it's possible to have good peripheral vision with the frames he uses.

I could be wrong - but I don't think he wears glasses. Those are sun-glasses tinted in blue - like what John Lennon wore. It's also kind of like Bono wears pink-tinted sunglasses - so Bassara wears blue ones. His eyes are fine.

Besides - notice how he's always got his glasses tilted down on his nose in an arrogant typically haughty upper east side Soho rock star way (I'm generalizing here of course). He never actually has the glasses on "properly" - if he did we might think he uses them to see through - but I think they're just decoration.

They are his 'I'm a cool rockstar' blue tinted sun glasses.

Honestly, I think Ozma would make a better Basara. He looks much cooler and he's got attitude. I can totally picture him with a guitar and and we all know he's a bad-ass pilot. That would be awesome and so much more entertaining to watch..

You might be right. However, as Michael or Alto (can't remember which) said: "He's so country!"

Ozma would fly into battle and sing country music.

It might work, but most likely only on women like Cathy

Pete

[Marzan]

Horonable mention:

Veffidas: I just don't like the open tummy shirt, the pale skin combined with green hair...it's like the Joker on crack.

Pete

Veffidas is one of the strangest character designs in entire Macross universe. A mixture of New Wave drummer/East German javelin thrower and Guld Goa Bowman... unique!

[VF5SS]

The thread starter (Pete) specifically asked for my participation in this thread in the STARTING POST. So... If YOU don't like it, maybe YOU should leave.

Who wants to hear your stupid repetitive hate again?

[Gubaba]

Who wants to hear your stupid repetitive hate again?

If he watches the show and has something new to say about it, then his contribution is welcome, whether it's positive, negative, or neutral.

If he doesn't want to talk about specific episodes, and would rather talk about the series in general, then no, his contribution won't fit the format of the thread.

I'm with Pete on this one...I'd *like* to have some of the people who don't like M7 join in on the journey and add their two cents into the pot, as long as it stays civil, and everyone explains WHY they liked or disliked something.

[David Hingtgen]

I freely admit I like valks with boobs. I'd rather Yamato make a VF-11MAXL' than just about anything else.

And of course, combining "Mylene" with "valks with boobs" with "M7 outfits" gets you this:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=770977

[VFTF1]

Who wants to hear your stupid repetitive hate again?

I do.

And if anybody attacks Agent One for no good reason other than the simple fact that Agent One doesn't like Macross 7 and expresses it then I am done with this thread and it can be closed or you can go on without me.

Either way - I am very sad that you keep picking a fight with Agent One just because he happens to hate Macross 7. That is also a point of view.

This thread is not meant to be a bunch of Bassara lovers patting themselves on the back. Yes, MY goal is to show that the anti-M7 criticisms we often here have been wrong. But I'm not going to do that by having a thread where people with Agent One's opinions aren't welcome.

Agent One has not flamed, has not made any personal attacks - he's just stated his opinions and this is the second time you've gone after him.

It's really sad. Why are you doing this? You and me both love Macross 7 - I read your posts and usually agree 99% with stuff you say.

I'm going to ask you with all due respect to please leave Agent One alone. Go ahead and attack his arguments, make fun of his opinions - fine. But please don't treat him like he has no business being here.

That's actually the most anti-M7 thing that you could do or write.

I mean - way to go. Don't you see the hypocracy of being pro-Macross 7 and trying to discourage people who are anti-M7 from participating in the thread?

That would be like Bassara shooting missiles at the Protodevilin because they won't listen to his music.

Bassara doesn't do that. Bassara tries to find a sound that will reach their hearts.

I believe M7 is cool enough that it could even reach the hearts of M7 haters like Agent One.

But if we behave like a bunch of stuck up snobs and poo poo anybody who has anything critical to say - even radically critical - then how are we supposed to be spreading the love of this anime? How is that helping?

So bury the hatchet please and let's keep going TOGETHER.

Pete

[shiroth]

Honestly, I think Ozma would make a better Basara. He looks much cooler and he's got attitude. I can totally picture him with a guitar and and we all know he's a bad-ass pilot. That would be awesome and so much more entertaining to watch..

Seeing Ozma with a guitar would make one awesome homage to Basara, though more entertaining then Basara? I'll just have to disagree with that one.

[VFTF1]

Seeing Ozma with a guitar would make one awesome homage to Basara, though more entertaining then Basara? I'll just have to disagree with that one.

Gubaba - can you please post a nice picture of Ozma with a guitar ...?

Pete

[Gubaba]

Seeing Ozma with a guitar would make one awesome homage to Basara, though more entertaining then Basara? I'll just have to disagree with that one.

I beg to differ...

[azrael]

I freely admit I like valks with boobs. I'd rather Yamato make a VF-11MAXL' than just about anything else.

And of course, combining "Mylene" with "valks with boobs" with "M7 outfits" gets you this:

So if we mention "Grace" with "valks with boobs" with "flight suit" would we find you....

David? David? hmmmmmm.... Someone wanna get the defibrillator?

[David Hingtgen]

I'd pay cash for a drawing of that. Seriously. (PM me if you're willing)

[Renato]

Already on Episode 3??

Sorry I'm really late to the party. I will give my opinions on eps 1 and 2 at a later date, then.

Anyway, I love episode 3, it is probably my favourite of the early bunch. It addresses the nagging notion which viewers have up to now likely felt of "why doesn't he just SHOOT THE BAD GUYS???"

After Basara knocks out all the Mosaic/Q&K fans, we realize, "Holy crap, he could just take on anyone if he wanted to!" And that makes him a more respectable character, in my opinion. "I have to get through to them with my song!" He is dead-set on his goal and knows it's an uphill struggle, but he is still going at it strong, convincing one handful of people at a time.

As VFTF1 pointed out, the end of the episode marks the first "happy ending" to an episode for Basara. He is finally getting somewhere in his quest.

I also love the lingering shot of him staring out of the window on the train, while on the monitor Max and Miria fight about bureaucracy, and behind him the Mosaic/Q&K fans fight about their tastes in music. You know that what is going through his head is "why are people so quick to anger each other? Why do they insist on arguing about nothing?? How can I stop this??" At least that was the impression I got. That shot is in there for a reason.

And the first of many arguments at Basara's apartment is just pure genius scriptwriting, and probably what I love the most about the show, besides the music itself. Mylene's hyperactive excitement meets Basara's laid-back "so, who cares? Not in the mood" attitude and that sparks off a whole "Don't you understand?? Fire Bomber is finally going to make a major debut!" debate. Basara replies, 「何だそれ？」which can be translated simply as "What is that?" but can imply "What are you talking about? Who cares about that? That has no meaning."

Also, I should bring up the point that by this point we have seen Mylene in a red sports car, many different outfits and we have seen that she is the daughter of Max and Miria, the two most important people in Macross 7 (though we have not seen where she lives just yet). To juxtapose, Basara lives in the slums of Akusho where you cannot even access properly by car because you have to go down a bunch of stairs, plus all the buildings are decrepit and it appears that Basara and Ray have an entire apartment building to themselves, which seems about to collapse at any moment. Basara wears the same rags every day and sits in his destroyed apartment writing music all day.

The meeting of Mylene and Basara and their interaction is enjoyable to watch because these two individuals could not be any more different. They both want to make music but when their lifestyles and ways of thinking are so drastically distinct from each other, it's a wonder they even talk the same language. Basara is simplistic and wants music to go straight to the heart of the people. Mylene is all about making music everybody can enjoy, and realizing a dream to be a superstar, for which you have to work hard, be opportunistic, make some sacrifices to secure some deals, care for your image, and all the commercialism and materiaism that goes along. As well as this, if we hark back to episode 2 for a change, she is well aware that entertainment has its place and dangerous things like flying valkyries in warzones ought to be left to the soldiers. Or rather, that is what her upbringing/life experience has taught her. Basara wants to challenge all of these things using just pure music.

I think this third episode really sets everything up in terms of the battle between ideologies which is the main conflict in the show. I don't think it is a show about aliens and robots, as much as it is a cry for help in a society of abundance, of over-saturation, of commercialism, of disposeable things...

"Don't think... feeel."

[VFTF1]

Great review!

Pete

[Marzan]

I beg to differ...

Ozma can produce 50,000 Chiba sound units? Who would have thought...

But I shouldn't get ahead of myself. Dr. Chiba has yet to put forward his amazing theory...

[Agent ONE]

Just fast forwarded EP 3 on mute (so I didn't have to hear the sh!tty music). I feel like so far each episode is written like its the first. Basically Basara sulks and seems depressed like an angry pre-pubescent (the target market of the show) and really nothing happens. We just see a mysterious enemy and some disconnected characters.

I do have to say the gay nature of Basara isn't seen as of yet (it surfaces later). He seems more androgens which is fine I guess. A character doesn't have to be a super stud like me for me to like him. I mean Hikaru didn't grow balls till the end but I liked him the whole time.

[VFTF1]

But I shouldn't get ahead of myself. Dr. Chiba has yet to put forward his amazing theory...

Nor Exedor to identify the enemy.

This is one thing I REALLY like about Macross 7 - namely it's not just "what is Bassara doing?" that is a mystery for such a long time, it's also the precise identity of the enemy. And they take their sweet time unraveling this mystery.

In fact- in a way - there's several mysteries going on by the end of episode 3 that will be key to the plot as the beginning progresses:

1. Why is Bassara singing at the enemies?

2. Why is Gamlin prevented with a direct order from interfering and why hasn't the military attempted to charge Bassara/take away his Valkyrie etc?

3. Just who are the enemy and what are they doing to the victimized pilots?

4. What is spiritia?

5. Will Fire Bomber ever be popular and successful?

The whole beginning is rife with questions, questions and they take their sweet time, letting the plot progress, until things are answered.

But given that it took until episode 12 (IIRC) to hear the word "Protoculture" and the story of the Zendradi - then it's fair to say that this is a Macross tradition.

See - it's good to go one episode at a time and pace the discussion because then we notice stuff like this - namely that there are so many question marks for such a long time in the plot.

Pete

[VFTF1]

Just fast forwarded EP 3 on mute (so I didn't have to hear the sh!tty music). I feel like so far each episode is written like its the first. Basically Basara sulks and seems depressed like an angry pre-pubescent (the target market of the show) and really nothing happens. We just see a mysterious enemy and some disconnected characters.

I do have to say the gay nature of Basara isn't seen as of yet (it surfaces later). He seems more androgens which is fine I guess. A character doesn't have to be a super stud like me for me to like him. I mean Hikaru didn't grow balls till the end but I liked him the whole time.

Well - if I remember correctly I THINK the Protodevilin try your tactic at some point later in the show - that is, they put the mute button on - or some kind of equivalent, in order not to hear Bassara

I will be waiting for you to point out when the "gay nature" of Bassara starts. Meanwhile, can someone explain to me what an androgens is? I guess I can google it...hang on...ok - now I know what it is.

But the thing with the question of his manliness - because this is how I interpret androgens - is whether or not it is manly to go into the middle of a battle and sing songs to the enemy. I think it is. It's way more manly than just being cannon fodder and not questioning authority and doing what you're told even if it means you end up in a comma.

However - presuming that you disagree, would you say that Bassara was manly in this episode because he beat the crap out of those Kings and Queens fans?

I guess I'm asking for a definition of sorts.

The comparisson with Hikaru is also interesting. I don't think Hikaru was ever frightened except that very first time going up in the 1D - but that was more shock than fear. I had the feeling that he had an instinct for flying and it would take over to the extent that fear wasn't an issue. Where he DID have problems was accepting his role as a soldier and the fact that that meant killing people.

But you say Hikaru got balls at the end - I agree...but I wonder how you would define him getting balls? Me - I think he got balls because he found the courage to follow through on his pacifist idealism in a realistic way (unlike Kaifun who could only mouth platitudes about the military being bad, Hikaru found a way to stop the violence). Yes, it's true that he also became a confident leader who flew into combat and kicked butt while his rookie squad looked on, thankful for salvation....

But notice that despite being a more manly fighter, he was STILL up to the very end totally incapable of saying "I love you" to Misa and kept allowing himself to be bounced around like a ping-pong by Minmey. Oh - gee. Minmey called me and wants me to see her even though I have a date with Misa...I'll go...and now I'll run back to Misa in the scarf Minmey gave me - oh darn. And on it went.

Men have a tendency to think that it is manly to do what comes naturally to them - namely fighting. But I say that real manliness is understanding and surpassing your nature and taking control of your destiny. Hikaru did this in terms of his predicament as a soldier - I think it was great. But he was unmanly in relation to the women in his life until the very end.

Although...I have a feeling that his indesiciveness was something that attracted Misa because it was mixed in with him being exceedingly considerate of others..

Anyways... the important thing is that you're watching Macross 7 with us Bomba!!

Pete

[Agent ONE]

Thanks for the catch, I meant "androgynous" meaning http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/androgynous

Definition 4 specifically:

neither clearly masculine nor clearly feminine in appearance: the androgynous look of many rock stars.

[Marzan]

Nor Exedor to identify the enemy.

This is one thing I REALLY like about Macross 7 - namely it's not just "what is Bassara doing?" that is a mystery for such a long time, it's also the precise identity of the enemy. And they take their sweet time unraveling this mystery.

In fact- in a way - there's several mysteries going on by the end of episode 3 that will be key to the plot as the beginning progresses:

1. Why is Bassara singing at the enemies?

2. Why is Gamlin prevented with a direct order from interfering and why hasn't the military attempted to charge Bassara/take away his Valkyrie etc?

3. Just who are the enemy and what are they doing to the victimized pilots?

4. What is spiritia?

5. Will Fire Bomber ever be popular and successful?

The whole beginning is rife with questions, questions and they take their sweet time, letting the plot progress, until things are answered.

But given that it took until episode 12 (IIRC) to hear the word "Protoculture" and the story of the Zendradi - then it's fair to say that this is a Macross tradition.

See - it's good to go one episode at a time and pace the discussion because then we notice stuff like this - namely that there are so many question marks for such a long time in the plot.

Pete

Agree wholeheartedly. M7 is actually pretty good at giving you the story slooowllyy. There some misteries that actually never get answered at all, namely...

Who is the flowergirl and what's her name??