The MW rewatches M7 together Thread

[VFTF1]

Yeah, besides - if we hadn't taken this detour, Gubaba might never have learned that he walked down the wrong crosswalk in Tokyo way back when

Pete

[Master Dex]

Full Metal Panic didn't put you in a Macross-y mood? You mean you didn't perceive the pervasive feeling of trans military kinship between Sousuke Sagara and Gamlin Kinzaki?

We're in this for the long run so next week we'll be fine and dandy for episode 8...

Somehow I just don't see it, lol.

[Renato]

Well... I watched it!

I guess I'll put stuff in spoiler tags for now, then. Even though it's weird to be using these 15 years after the fact...

So, I won't do a while review, just a few comments.

I thought again about Gamlin and his actions during this episode. Of course, the focus is on Basara and his reluctance to turn Fire Bomber into an empty-souled sell-out tool of commercialism, and we do have the important memorable scene with Basara about to remove the missiles from the valk and his subsequent conversation with Ray, but I'd like to focus on Gamlin.

Following on from the previous episode, Gamlin is beginning to notice something is amiss and is beginning to question Mylene's innocent act. He had the closing line in the previous episode, pointing to a form of jealousy. Now he's had time to think things over, he asks Mylene out on a date and interrogates her, but cannot get her to admit any kind of relation to Basara. Next time we see him, he is in battle, and is no longer annoyed that Basara is getting in the way of the battle. Rather, he challenges him. He dares him to see which method is better at stopping the enemy threat in its tracks -- blindly singing, or actually shooting back. He's got something to prove. It is a clear change in attitude for Gamlin. And that's not the only thing, he is also fuelled by passion for revenge. The goody-two-shoes, straight-laced image of Gamlin takes a back seat for this new lone soldier with an agenda as he breaks formation leaving his teammates and disobeying direct orders to chase Gigil, seeking retribution for the embarassment he was caused when he had to be bailed out by Basara of all people last time.

So we have a lot of complicated emotions within Gamlin at the moment:

-He is jealous of Basara because Mylene can be herself around him

-He is stressed that Mylene is lying to him

-He is trying to rid himself of the shame brought upon him by being saved by Basara

-He channels this in an attempt to seek revenge upon Basara and Gigil, and endangers others in the process

In the end, Gamlin actually wins, at least partly. He is smug that he was the one who drove the enemy away, and he is sure it is only a matter of time before Basara gives up and realises he is of no use out in the battlefield.

Well, those were my impressions for now.

[Freiflug88]

Surprisingly so. But lets hope that no one in M7 starts doing any black magic stuff...right?

The teacher image is actually from the h-game Discipline. Its literally Bible Black Frontier. No more black magic or Spirtia nonsense just an evil sadistic Proto-Sheryl to sexually exploit college students. And we all know how that is so much scarier and sexier then any black magic wielding Devlins right?

Glabil does fire fleet destroying reactive weapons from a Satanic symbol...I dunno if that counts

I don't think it counts:

1. If you look closely Glabil always fires his beam from an upright pentagram star, which is actually a common religious symbol in Christianity, Judahism, and Islam. The Satanic pentagram that is always the downwards pentagram that resembles the head of ram with a chin, point ears, and two horns as the five points:

2. Black magic brings the "beauty" of all night romps with beautiful people, not exploding cannon fodder.

Well... I watched it!

I guess I'll put stuff in spoiler tags for now, then. Even though it's weird to be using these 15 years after the fact...

You beat me to the review. Ah well I am about half way done with my episode 8 review, I think I will save it and post it later.

Anyways I wanted to add this tidbit: While watching episode 8 guys, pay attention to what Mylene is wearing while she is watching the news on TV just before the very first commerical break. You'll probably recognize it from episode 8 of another giant robo series and Episode 7 of Macross Frontier.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Freiflug88

[Renato]

Oh yeah, as far as the crosswalk is concerned, I also have always thought it was the one right outside Shibuya station, simply judging by how tiny the people look in the credits. The Shibuya station crossing is really big, and I would say significantly larger than the one in front of 109, which is just a couple of minutes up the road anyway. I was over there just a few weeks ago, by coincidence

Of course we could all be wrong and it might be some random crossing in Fukuoka or somewhere

..But I doubt it

[Renato]

1. If you look closely Glabil always fires his beam from an upright pentagram star, which is actually a common religious symbol in Christianity, Judahism, and Islam. The Satanic pentagram that is always the downwards pentagram that resembles the head of ram with a chin, point ears, and two horns as the five points:

Right, yeah, but -- "the beauty of romping" notwithstanding -- it could just be the angle of Glavil's wrist: a couple of degrees anti-clockwise and hey presto, it's an upside-down pentagram. Besides, that is not the only "demon" symbol in the show, notice the pentagram (this time clearly pointing down) on Valgo's abdomen, plus a myriad other such symbols as well as the fact that they are described as demons of legend, who possess other beings. The implication is clear in the "ruins" episode that these are the same devils that have been possessing people throughout the ages (though that would clash with the whole concept of them being imprisoned for tens of thousands of years).

As for its origins, I think you're thinking of the star of David, which has six points. That's something else. If I recall correctly, the pentagram was a pagan symbol which was demonized by the Christians -- along with the image of Pan into that of Satan, among many others -- so that people would leave those practices and take up the Judaeochristian traditions. That said, let us tread carefully along this ground and discuss the history and significance of these symbols by all means, but as soon as we get into judging the faiths we can say goodbye to this thread so I think we should stick to discussing the cartoon. Just a disclaimer

Anyways I wanted to add this tidbit: While watching episode 8 guys, pay attention to what Mylene is wearing while she is watching the news on TV just before the very first commerical break. You'll probably recognize it from episode 8 of another giant robo series and Episode 7 of Macross Frontier.

I can't remember... please enlighten! Preferably with images

[VFTF1]

Thanks for the review Renato! And do call it that - content is what makes a review, not whether you call it one

So you focused on Gamlin - fine. Everybody's got their own angle, and the more the merrier. I still haven't watched it (again) and honestly...even though I actually DID watch it...I think ...is this the episode with Honey?

I'm not gonna comment until I re-watch it..

Although I KNOW I saw this episode like a month ago...and already I can't really remember what is what and where...and didn't I miss the riveiera episode too?

In any event...

I will be back with some coherent thoughts this weekend I hope!

As for the pentagram on Gabil's hand - I'm with Renato on this one:

it could just be the angle of Glavil's wrist: a couple of degrees anti-clockwise and hey presto, it's an upside-down pentagram. Besides, that is not the only "demon" symbol in the show, notice the pentagram (this time clearly pointing down) on Valgo's abdomen, plus a myriad other such symbols as well as the fact that they are described as demons of legend, who possess other beings. The implication is clear in the "ruins" episode that these are the same devils that have been possessing people throughout the ages (though that would clash with the whole concept of them being imprisoned for tens of thousands of years).

Of course - none of this means that it's "black magic" in the strict sense... it's just symbolism, and very likely it's all exotic to the Japanese while it makes us think of Satan and wonder about black magic.

But these are all scientific creations - not magic.

Pete

[Freiflug88]

The implication is clear in the "ruins" episode that these are the same devils that have been possessing people throughout the ages (though that would clash with the whole concept of them being imprisoned for tens of thousands of years).

In their true form the Protodevilin are actually non-corporeal beings from another dimension and not the stange creatures that fly in space shooting pentragm beams. The Protoculture were trying to create a new more powerful line of Zentradi that were biological superweapons. To power these super bodies the Protoculture created organs that could tap into interdimensional fold energy, these organs that were merely supposed to supply energy opened a link for the Protodelvin spirits to come into our dimension and posses these new Zentradi bodies. Once in this dimension though the Protodelvin have to feed on spirita energy so they can anchor themselves to this dimension. So their probably countless more Protodelvin then just the 7 buried under the ice there on the other side looking for bridges to come over to our dimension and they probably found them through spiritually sensitive people like fortune tellers, mediums, etc throughout the ages.

I can't remember... please enlighten! Preferably with images

I don't want to spoil the surprise for everyone. Images sent via PM.

[VFTF1]

In their true form the Protodevilin are actually non-corporeal beings from another dimension and not the stange creatures that fly in space shooting pentragm beams. The Protoculture were trying to create a new more powerful line of Zentradi that were biological superweapons. To power these super bodies the Protoculture created organs that could tap into interdimensional fold energy, these organs that were merely supposed to supply energy opened a link for the Protodelvin spirits to come into our dimension and posses these new Zentradi bodies. Once in this dimension though the Protodelvin have to feed on spirita energy so they can anchor themselves to this dimension. So their probably countless more Protodelvin then just the 7 buried under the ice there on the other side looking for bridges to come over to our dimension and they probably found them through spiritually sensitive people like fortune tellers, mediums, etc throughout the ages.

Good point. Forgot about this.

Dag- so complicated

Pete

[Freiflug88]

I wanted to add looking back at your comment about the twisting of the wrist, Renato, I realized that Glabil does indeed put some twist into it making the pentagram kinda in between the classical 5-pointed star and the satantic ram's head. Personally I like to think that this was done on purpose as the Protodelvins are supposed to be mystical demons that are kinda in the grey area. On one hand they suck the spiritual energy out of innocent people left and right while on the other hand we are supposed to sympathize and sing to them rather then blast them to bits with weapons. Of course it certainly helps that their is a natural grey area in the depiction and perception of symbols in real life.

Of course - none of this means that it's "black magic" in the strict sense... it's just symbolism, and very likely it's all exotic to the Japanese while it makes us think of Satan and wonder about black magic.

I don't think the christian and Satanic symbolism is any more or less exotic to the Japanese then to us westerners though especially in this global age. While statistically Christianity is a minority religion in Japan due to the small number of Christian memberships in Japan, it certainly doesn't mean its any more or less exotic to mainstream Japan then the western world. Take bodybuilding, drug use, nerddom, etc as an example. While not every one actually particpates in bodybuilding, drug use, or being nerdy on a regular basis that doesn't stop the average person from recognizing and being at least somewhat familiar with those subjects. When a typical Japanese viewer saw Glabil use that red pentragm beam he probably thought of Satan and black magic as well as any Westerner, only difference probably being is his mental language was in Japanese.

[Master Dex]

But these are all scientific creations - not magic.

Pete

I have nothing to say on this satanic discussion, but to Pete's line there:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clark.

[VFTF1]

Emperor Palpatine put it best when he said of the Dark Side: "Some consider it...un-natural" ...well...he said this before he was Emperor Palpatine...

But yes - I agree wholeheartedly. Well...actually..half-heartedly...

Science and magic both purport to do the same thing: bend the universe to man's will. But science does so by understanding the universe in order to control it, while magic is by definition super-natural...if it exists at all.

But yes - on the face of it - to the untrained eye - magic and science can look indistinguishable.

Pete

[Master Dex]

Emperor Palpatine put it best when he said of the Dark Side: "Some consider it...un-natural" ...well...he said this before he was Emperor Palpatine...

But yes - I agree wholeheartedly. Well...actually..half-heartedly...

Science and magic both purport to do the same thing: bend the universe to man's will. But science does so by understanding the universe in order to control it, while magic is by definition super-natural...if it exists at all.

But yes - on the face of it - to the untrained eye - magic and science can look indistinguishable.

Pete

It is actually referencing the fact that what we don't understand and label as magic can be understood as a science if we learn enough. It's like if you went back in time to when they used bows and arrows and showed people a modern day gun. They wouldn't think of the gun as some futuristic weapon, that thing is so unlike anything they have seen before it can only be magic. However those people learned and evolved over time to become us, who understand the science of how guns work.

Some theoretical technologies of the future, like faster than light travel, beam weapons, etc. seem like magical things to us. Even now though we are trying to find ways through science to see if anything of these things can be possible. It might surprise you how many science fiction technologies may truly be possible. The catch is it could take hundreds to thousands of years for us to make them happen (barring alien intervention like in Macross of course).

The point of Arthur C. Clark's quote was that magic is nothing more than a science we have yet to understand and master.

Oh, and if anyone didn't know or was curious, Arthur C. Clark is the man who wrote 2001: A Space Odyssey and its associated sequels (most people should a least know of the story, if they haven't read or seen the movie based on it).

[Marzan]

Some theoretical technologies of the future, like faster than light travel, beam weapons, etc. seem like magical things to us. Even now though we are trying to find ways through science to see if anything of these things can be possible. It might surprise you how many science fiction technologies may truly be possible. The catch is it could take hundreds to thousands of years for us to make them happen (barring alien intervention like in Macross of course).

I pray for alien intervention to happen everyday. Not in a Haruhi Suzumiya kinda way, but more out of frustration that mankind instead of developing technologies that will help us travel further into outer space, develops smaller and smaller mp3 players and mobile phones. Maybe we need a little nudge in the right direction.

And I do have to check out Mylene's outfit in episode 8...

[Freiflug88]

I pray for alien intervention to happen everyday. Not in a Haruhi Suzumiya kinda way, but more out of frustration that mankind instead of developing technologies that will help us travel further into outer space, develops smaller and smaller mp3 players and mobile phones. Maybe we need a little nudge in the right direction.

And I do have to check out Mylene's outfit in episode 8...

I think we unfortunately have a long way to go before that happens. According to Dr. Michio Kaku we are at the critical point of transition from a Type 0 civilization to a planetary Type 1 civilization. Once planetary resources have been exhausted as a Type 1 Civilization the next step is an interplanetary Type 2 civilization that colonizes and expands upon other planets for more resources such as the Macross Colonization Fleets.

[Master Dex]

I think we unfortunately have a long way to go before that happens. According to Dr. Michio Kaku we are at the critical point of transition from a Type 0 civilization to a planetary Type 1 civilization. Once planetary resources have been exhausted as a Type 1 Civilization the next step is an interplanetary Type 2 civilization that colonizes and expands upon other planets for more resources such as the Macross Colonization Fleets.

I am a huge Michio Kaku fan, so seeing other people referencing him is just great. Technically though Type 1 just means we can utilize the energy of an entire planet, and Type 2 the energy of an entire star. While we are still at least 100 years from being a Type 1 civilization this doesn't really have any bearing on whether any alien intervention could happen. However it doesn't mean it is unlikely, because to an interstellar civilization, we would look so primitive that communication would be an excessive waste of time. Also despite many sci-fi plots about it, there isn't really enough of a good reason to want to invade or enslave us. It just isn't all that likely. The plot of Macross has a certain plausibility about it though, the ship crashed on our planet, the Zentradi thought we were allied with their enemy when they found it there, so they attacked. They only learned their mistake later.

As far as being a Michio Kaku fan, I have full read Physics of the Impossible and am halfway through his best seller Hyperspace. I believe he is truly one of the best theoretical physicists alive today.

[Marzan]

I think we unfortunately have a long way to go before that happens. According to Dr. Michio Kaku we are at the critical point of transition from a Type 0 civilization to a planetary Type 1 civilization. Once planetary resources have been exhausted as a Type 1 Civilization the next step is an interplanetary Type 2 civilization that colonizes and expands upon other planets for more resources such as the Macross Colonization Fleets.

I am a huge Michio Kaku fan, so seeing other people referencing him is just great. Technically though Type 1 just means we can utilize the energy of an entire planet, and Type 2 the energy of an entire star. While we are still at least 100 years from being a Type 1 civilization this doesn't really have any bearing on whether any alien intervention could happen. However it doesn't mean it is unlikely, because to an interstellar civilization, we would look so primitive that communication would be an excessive waste of time. Also despite many sci-fi plots about it, there isn't really enough of a good reason to want to invade or enslave us. It just isn't all that likely. The plot of Macross has a certain plausibility about it though, the ship crashed on our planet, the Zentradi thought we were allied with their enemy when they found it there, so they attacked. They only learned their mistake later.

As far as being a Michio Kaku fan, I have full read Physics of the Impossible and am halfway through his best seller Hyperspace. I believe he is truly one of the best theoretical physicists alive today.

I'll have to check him out then.

That's what I like about this forum. Such smart and polite people.

I suppose i should stop writing now about mr. Kaku in the MW rewatches M7 together thread. Unless of course his writings have some fascinating connection to Macross 7...

[VFTF1]

I pray for alien intervention to happen everyday. Not in a Haruhi Suzumiya kinda way, but more out of frustration that mankind instead of developing technologies that will help us travel further into outer space, develops smaller and smaller mp3 players and mobile phones. Maybe we need a little nudge in the right direction.

And I do have to check out Mylene's outfit in episode 8...

Uh...why not? What other kind of way is there other than a Haruhi Suzumiya kind of way??

As for the second part of your sentence - you know... I like to notice that the vast majority of twentieth century science fiction focused on space travel, traveling at light speed, warp speed, beaming people up down and around, creating vast mamoth Death Stars, Star Cruisers, star fighters, star ships bla bla bla

and yet in terms of communication technology - they basically never got passed the two way radio.

Tomino's Mobile Suit Gundam is perhaps the most amazingly awesome example of this insofar as it illustrates this fact so literallly. The White Base is this amazing super duper space ship...but Captain Bright talks to people on a 70s hand held cord telephone....

But even without the phone, the way people in science fiction literature communicated was ridiculous.

I still remember laughing at Isaac Asimov's "Robots of Dawn" from the Foundation Series, when Elijah Baley is stuck in the car, the rain (which he is unaccustomed to and therefore scared of) is pouring, his car has been sabatoged, he's sent his robots away for their own safety, and other robots are out to get him, and he makes a run for it but panics in the rain and falls....

oh the drama!

Maybe sending a text message to Gladia would have helped?

"Gladia! Robots are after me and it's raining! Send Help!"

Hell - even just being able to call her would help.

They have all of these elaborate ways of traversing the stars - but they can't send a text message.

Point?

We really shouldn't make this artificial distinction between what people are doing scientifically and what they "should be" doing. I would LOVE it if we could travel through the galaxy on space ships.

But really - so long as there's no pressing economic benefit from doing so - it's not going to happen. A good first step would be colonizing the moon and putting the resources there to some sort of good use.

But you won't get scientific progress by stifling the progress that is being made - and by categorizing it as less important than...

This is where scientists fail to understand economics. They view things as a matter of funding for their experiments and discoveries which will pay off in the long run in ways unknown.

But private corporations also fund R&D which will pay off in the long run in ways unknown. The thing is - technically, with limited resources, funding can't be infinite, and resources need to be economized. Corporations have a knack for balancing R&D funding with other priorities and making sure that R&D doesn't become a black hole that money is pumped into without any results.

Another point to be made is that the pie is not fixed. That is to say - resources are limited only insofar as they are not infinitely available in infinite quantities at no cost in time. However, better productivity and economic growth help grow the pie, so to speak, and so this situation where you think you need to made a trade off between, say, cell phones and space travel - is actually artificial. You don't.

We'll see where things progress to.

But in general... I think that if you try to hamper the development of market driven technologies in favor of some prefered scientific goal (say, space travel), then you will not advance the goal of space travel - but you will regress the advancement of other technologies which would have occured had it not been inhibited.

Patience

Oh - and - the best option is to find a cute girl and dress her up in aluminum foil. Stick two chopsticks in her hair and make them protrude vertically. Maybe make her wear a green winter hat and green panties.

Hey presto: a space alien.

Then get that Simon Says game from the eighties - the one with the flashing lights.

Hey presto: space ship control computer

Then, find yourself some underlings to do things like navigate or repeat the computer (nod to Galaxy Quest)

In other words - go the way of Haruhi Suzumiya!

I am a huge Michio Kaku fan, so seeing other people referencing him is just great. Technically though Type 1 just means we can utilize the energy of an entire planet, and Type 2 the energy of an entire star. While we are still at least 100 years from being a Type 1 civilization this doesn't really have any bearing on whether any alien intervention could happen. However it doesn't mean it is unlikely, because to an interstellar civilization, we would look so primitive that communication would be an excessive waste of time. Also despite many sci-fi plots about it, there isn't really enough of a good reason to want to invade or enslave us. It just isn't all that likely. The plot of Macross has a certain plausibility about it though, the ship crashed on our planet, the Zentradi thought we were allied with their enemy when they found it there, so they attacked. They only learned their mistake later.

As far as being a Michio Kaku fan, I have full read Physics of the Impossible and am halfway through his best seller Hyperspace. I believe he is truly one of the best theoretical physicists alive today.

I often wonder to myself thus:

Why haven't alien races emailed us or text messaged us?

Um...Macross 7 .... is great.

Pete

[Marzan]

But in general... I think that if you try to hamper the development of market driven technologies in favor of some prefered scientific goal (say, space travel), then you will not advance the goal of space travel - but you will regress the advancement of other technologies which would have occured had it not been inhibited.

Patience

Pete

You make some interesting points in your post. Maybe we should bring it to another post though!

This space should be completely dedicated to M7 and Veffidas first words

There's no point in arguing with Basara...You can't try to be rational with him"

[Master Dex]

Uh...why not? What other kind of way is there other than a Haruhi Suzumiya kind of way??

As for the second part of your sentence - you know... I like to notice that the vast majority of twentieth century science fiction focused on space travel, traveling at light speed, warp speed, beaming people up down and around, creating vast mamoth Death Stars, Star Cruisers, star fighters, star ships bla bla bla

and yet in terms of communication technology - they basically never got passed the two way radio.

Tomino's Mobile Suit Gundam is perhaps the most amazingly awesome example of this insofar as it illustrates this fact so literallly. The White Base is this amazing super duper space ship...but Captain Bright talks to people on a 70s hand held cord telephone....

But even without the phone, the way people in science fiction literature communicated was ridiculous.

I still remember laughing at Isaac Asimov's "Robots of Dawn" from the Foundation Series, when Elijah Baley is stuck in the car, the rain (which he is unaccustomed to and therefore scared of) is pouring, his car has been sabatoged, he's sent his robots away for their own safety, and other robots are out to get him, and he makes a run for it but panics in the rain and falls....

oh the drama!

Maybe sending a text message to Gladia would have helped?

"Gladia! Robots are after me and it's raining! Send Help!"

Hell - even just being able to call her would help.

They have all of these elaborate ways of traversing the stars - but they can't send a text message.

Point?

We really shouldn't make this artificial distinction between what people are doing scientifically and what they "should be" doing. I would LOVE it if we could travel through the galaxy on space ships.

But really - so long as there's no pressing economic benefit from doing so - it's not going to happen. A good first step would be colonizing the moon and putting the resources there to some sort of good use.

But you won't get scientific progress by stifling the progress that is being made - and by categorizing it as less important than...

This is where scientists fail to understand economics. They view things as a matter of funding for their experiments and discoveries which will pay off in the long run in ways unknown.

But private corporations also fund R&D which will pay off in the long run in ways unknown. The thing is - technically, with limited resources, funding can't be infinite, and resources need to be economized. Corporations have a knack for balancing R&D funding with other priorities and making sure that R&D doesn't become a black hole that money is pumped into without any results.

Another point to be made is that the pie is not fixed. That is to say - resources are limited only insofar as they are not infinitely available in infinite quantities at no cost in time. However, better productivity and economic growth help grow the pie, so to speak, and so this situation where you think you need to made a trade off between, say, cell phones and space travel - is actually artificial. You don't.

We'll see where things progress to.

But in general... I think that if you try to hamper the development of market driven technologies in favor of some prefered scientific goal (say, space travel), then you will not advance the goal of space travel - but you will regress the advancement of other technologies which would have occured had it not been inhibited.

Patience

Oh - and - the best option is to find a cute girl and dress her up in aluminum foil. Stick two chopsticks in her hair and make them protrude vertically. Maybe make her wear a green winter hat and green panties.

Hey presto: a space alien.

Then get that Simon Says game from the eighties - the one with the flashing lights.

Hey presto: space ship control computer

Then, find yourself some underlings to do things like navigate or repeat the computer (nod to Galaxy Quest)

In other words - go the way of Haruhi Suzumiya!

I often wonder to myself thus:

Why haven't alien races emailed us or text messaged us?

Um...Macross 7 .... is great.

Pete

I'm not going to pick this apart because I'm not interested enough to do so and it is off topic, but you aren't entirely correct on all of that. I'll leave it there though. Aliens don't send us messages because we aren't worth the time as I said.

I'll answer one part though: As for communication in space, actually most science fiction does cover this, it just isn't a focal point so they don't dwell on explaining it. They aren't using radio communication because it would take far too long, if you were on Earth and the guy you were sending a radio message to was around Proxima Centauri (closest star to our own), it would take 4 years for your message to get there, and another 4 years for you to get the reply. It isn't convenient. Now the communications in Sci-fi aren't real yet, but they do work around it. Star Trek has subspace communications, sending messages at faster than light. Star Wars has the Holonet, which uses hyperspace communications. Halo sends e-mail like messages through slipspace packet messages but they cannot send audio messages across slipspace (they use radios in the games only when near each other). Macross itself mentions fold space communications, not too sure how that works though. In my books I even generated a method based on my own custom designed FTL travel technology (that's right, I created my own form of faster than light travel, I went all out). I don't know if any of this actually works of course (probably not), but my point is, they are doing more than just radio transmission.

Enough of this, we shouldn't be off topic anymore. I still haven't watched the episode though so..... yeah.... Let's get around to doing that....

[Freiflug88]

I often wonder to myself thus:

Why haven't alien races emailed us or text messaged us?

Um...Macross 7 .... is great.

Pete

Ever watched the movie StarGate: Continuum? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4dC3GOu3ko...ated%91#t=2m20s

Any alien interested in email or text messaging with us would have to physically access a cellphone/computer of ours or study how our internet networks and devices work and Jerry rig their equipment to connect to our Internet. Its just not practical as the aliens would have to be here on Earth in the first place to do either and then no body would believe that they recieved messages from aliens anyway.

[Uxi]

Problem with space and just how big it is: Fermi's Paradox. The bigger space is, the more likely space should be filled with noise from cultures running the gamut of the electromagnetic spectrum. We should be picking up cultures broadcasting primitive radio, tv, advanced TV. Doesn't mean we'd understand but the patterns and noise should be detectable, even by our instruments today. Like the light from the stars themselves, some of these would be "snapshots" to however long ago they were.

Instead, it's nothing in every direction.

None of the theories for answering it sound very plausible without getting into tinfoil hat territory ("they ARE there," controlling everything and/or everyone) or the completely supernatural idea that we really are alone/unique/created, etc. Which begs a whole set of mostly religious and/or philosophical questions.

But that's science in general: the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.

Protodevlin as super Zentraedi obviously taps into the supernatural/other dimensional aka 'magical' to explain the Protodevlin's spirits, if not the concept of Spiritia itself.

Just watched the episode. We're told that the Varauta force is much larger than previously, but apparently was no more effective than previous... or was it? We know the previous attacks were not intended to destroy M7, but to gather spiritia. We see several more poor VF-11C pilots get drained. Just as likely some of the "vampires" were retrieved with their collected spiritia, as well as new teams dropped off, using the attack as a diversion?

[Master Dex]

Problem with space and just how big it is: Fermi's Paradox. The bigger space is, the more likely space should be filled with noise from cultures running the gamut of the electromagnetic spectrum. We should be picking up cultures broadcasting primitive radio, tv, advanced TV. Doesn't mean we'd understand but the patterns and noise should be detectable, even by our instruments today. Like the light from the stars themselves, some of these would be "snapshots" to however long ago they were.

Instead, it's nothing in every direction.

None of the theories for answering it sound very plausible without getting into tinfoil hat territory ("they ARE there," controlling everything and/or everyone) or the completely supernatural idea that we really are alone/unique/created, etc. Which begs a whole set of mostly religious and/or philosophical questions.

But that's science in general: the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know.

Protodevlin as super Zentraedi obviously taps into the supernatural/other dimensional aka 'magical' to explain the Protodevlin's spirits, if not the concept of Spiritia itself.

Just watched the episode. We're told that the Varauta force is much larger than previously, but apparently was no more effective than previous... or was it? We know the previous attacks were not intended to destroy M7, but to gather spiritia. We see several more poor VF-11C pilots get drained. Just as likely some of the "vampires" were retrieved with their collected spiritia, as well as new teams dropped off, using the attack as a diversion?

Well like I said, it takes a long time for radio waves to travel across space. They only move at the speed of light, if the alien world sending transmissions is 400 light years away, we won't hear it for 400 years. However there is a theoretical limit to radio transmissions where the single brakes down and can't be deciphered anymore. It is believed after a couple hundred light years our own TV singles will not be able to be understood anymore. What we and groups like SETI are looking for isn't really a clear message, just evidence of radio waves from another source even it it is unintelligible by the time it gets here.

As for M7, I seriously wonder how many VF-11's M7 has... I mean we have figures I believe, but they never run out despite how many are destroyed in each episode. Regardless, you are right, it seems the size of the enemy isn't important as long as they are still doing the same spiritia draining plan. However defeating them as an enemy is where their size as a force comes into play.

As for the Protodeviln themselves, the explanation seems to fit with the idea that they are from another universe where the laws of physics are different, so in this universe the need to steal spiritia is because conditions are different. Of course we only learn that later in the show, but I always wondered something. If living in our universe was so difficult for them that they had to go vampire on everyone, why did they come here? Sadly I don't think we'll ever know.

[Master Dex]

Ok then! I've finally gotten around to watching episode 8. First before I talk about things, while this hiatus was nice, we got crazy off topic during and that is partly my fault for bringing up some random things. So I should apologize for that. Now back to Macross 7.

The sort of pseudo recap at the beginning doesn't cover very much. Anyway, Gamlin getting suspicious, but with good reason if you ask me. Mylene is trying to live two lives. She started seeing Gamlin so she could get specials deals for Fire Bomber but she rather not let Gamlin know about her affiliation with the band. To me this indicates even this early she has some interest in him, otherwise she wouldn't care if he knew about her being in the band.

First Fire Bomber recording session in this episode. Wasn't that amazing. I blame Honey, most annoying character ever. He doesn't sound bad, but it seems like whoever animated him was purposely trying to make him look unrealistic even in the context of an anime! This is of course where we get that Galaxy Fight version of Planet Dance. I never really liked that version of it from Let's Fire really, but it seems the sound mixers in the episode didn't like it either. Despite it's overuse, the regular Planet Dance is better. At least in my opinion (of course there are far better versions of the song, but not from the show).

I usually do a science bit, but.... well there wasn't really anything in this episode that stands out to me as worth mentioning. No scientific failings, or anything exceptional worth mentioning (save for another example of the unlimited VF-11 roster). So yeah... guess I'll leave it on that.

Though I'd like to note that I chuckled seeing the recorders recording the music on CDs. I think by 2045 CDs will be phased out, but again this is an alternate universe with a main divergence point going back to 1999.

[Freiflug88]

No scientific failings, or anything exceptional worth mentioning (save for another example of the unlimited VF-11 roster). So yeah... guess I'll leave it on that.

Like that saying an "eye for eye" for just about every friendly VF-11 destroyed their is an enemy Fz-109 that is destroyed as well, so the unlimited plane roster applies to the enemy as well.

Though I'd like to note that I chuckled seeing the recorders recording the music on CDs. I think by 2045 CDs will be phased out, but again this is an alternate universe with a main divergence point going back to 1999.

I think if music is still being sold by 2045 in physcial albums and not phased out completely by itunes then it will probably still be sold through some form of optical media shaped into a "Disc" just like they use in Macross 7. Its also certainly possible music will still be sold on our old 600mb CDs by 2045 only with more advanced encryption to try to prevent sharing. Unless buying more expensive discs packed with over 2hrs of audio or a newer inflated song file catches on as a fad I don't see any real reason to replace CDs with say a DVD or Bluray.

By the way Dex did you notice anything familiar about the outfit Mylene wore while she was watching the news?

Edited January 7, 2010 by Freiflug88

[Master Dex]

I think if music is still being sold by 2045 in physcial albums and not phased out completely by itunes then it will probably still be sold through some form of optical media shaped into a "Disc" just like they use in Macross 7. Its also certainly possible music will still be sold on our old 600mb CDs by 2045 only with more advanced encryption to try to prevent sharing. Unless buying more expensive discs packed with over 2hrs of audio or a newer inflated song file catches on as a fad I don't see any real reason to replace CDs with say a DVD or Bluray.

By the way Dex did you notice anything familiar about the outfit Mylene wore while she was watching the news?

Well true. One way to look at my mindset was that it may be a disc, but not necessarily what a CD is by current definition. Though they do work well enough as it is. I can see a fully digital format though (iTunes only being an example, there are far many other legal digital methods for buying music).

As for the dress, I forgot to notice... let me check...

***time dilation***

Ah... I think I know what you're getting at, but truthfully there isn't enough detail shown of the dress to draw that many conclusions.

[RedWolf]

If living in our universe was so difficult for them that they had to go vampire on everyone, why did they come here? Sadly I don't think we'll ever know.

Think of them as Cluthu which the Protoculture accidentally summoned when they installed those Super Dimension Organs in the Evil Series.

Point is the hubris of the Protoculture nearly ended all life in the galaxy and destroyed them as a civilization.

This is along the same lines as Grace and Macross Galaxy trying to become gods.

For the Protoculture faction that created the Evil series it backfired on them badly.

[Freiflug88]

As for the dress, I forgot to notice... let me check...

***time dilation***

Ah... I think I know what you're getting at, but truthfully there isn't enough detail shown of the dress to draw that many conclusions.

Snake! You can't do that! The future will be changed!

Your'll create a time paradox!

Well the details are always going to be drawn differently to keep things a homage rather then outright plagiarism.

[VFTF1]

Ever watched the movie StarGate: Continuum? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4dC3GOu3ko...ated%91#t=2m20s

Any alien interested in email or text messaging with us would have to physically access a cellphone/computer of ours or study how our internet networks and devices work and Jerry rig their equipment to connect to our Internet. Its just not practical as the aliens would have to be here on Earth in the first place to do either and then no body would believe that they recieved messages from aliens anyway.

Not practical??

Surely the aliens, if they are biological beings who multiply through reproductive sex would at least like some of our girls!!??

This would in turn serve as the motivation to get them to recalibrate their equipment.

Don't believe me?

Look at Macross....

Well like I said, it takes a long time for radio waves to travel across space. They only move at the speed of light, if the alien world sending transmissions is 400 light years away, we won't hear it for 400 years. However there is a theoretical limit to radio transmissions where the single brakes down and can't be deciphered anymore. It is believed after a couple hundred light years our own TV singles will not be able to be understood anymore. What we and groups like SETI are looking for isn't really a clear message, just evidence of radio waves from another source even it it is unintelligible by the time it gets here.

As for M7, I seriously wonder how many VF-11's M7 has... I mean we have figures I believe, but they never run out despite how many are destroyed in each episode. Regardless, you are right, it seems the size of the enemy isn't important as long as they are still doing the same spiritia draining plan. However defeating them as an enemy is where their size as a force comes into play.

As for the Protodeviln themselves, the explanation seems to fit with the idea that they are from another universe where the laws of physics are different, so in this universe the need to steal spiritia is because conditions are different. Of course we only learn that later in the show, but I always wondered something. If living in our universe was so difficult for them that they had to go vampire on everyone, why did they come here? Sadly I don't think we'll ever know.

Well - wait - is anybody keeping count with the VF-11s destroyed, because actually it's not that many. You just get that impression because they keep showing stock footage of the VF-11Cs getting blown up - but ultimately - I don't think that's indicative of anything.

Stock Footage battles are perfect examples of what Kawamorii-san called attention to when he said that his anime were just renditions of stories that happened, and therefore that you shouldn't 100% take what you see as "cannonical" because it's a version of a story.

Gubaba showed us with his translations of White Reminiscence that in fact, there was a huge process between the concept for a story, its' transformation into script, and then the director's discression in making it into an episode.

Now - look - stock footage battles is a case in point for this because of the following:

If you're going to take as "canonical" EVERYTHING you SEE in the particular anime you're watching, then a problem arises when you are faced with stock footage; namely - can the same exact thing happen twice? EXACTLY?

I mean - if what we see is what is actuall transpiring, then we must explain why the same exact thing repeats itself. And I mean literally the same exact thing - not just "another battle where VF-11Cs are blown up" - but the same image. The explicitly same angle, same explosion, same contures etc etc

Imagine a war in the real world - you turn on CNN and they show footage from the war and every day it's the exact same footage of a the exact same guy running down the exact same hill and getting shot at the exact same point in time by the exact same other guy etc.

Now - this is what we SEE in Macross 7.

And I submit to you that rather than interpret this as literally being cannonical -we need to take a looser view of what's happening. It's just "another" battle actually.

When something NEW happens in that battle - we are shown new footage.

But the stock footage of VF-11Cs all being destroyed have to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's just meant to show us that the Protodevilin are sucking the spiritia out of the pilots - and it's done over and over and over because if you're a new comer to the episode then you need to see it done to understand that something is awry with the enemy attack pattern and wonder about the mystery of what they're doing.

Therefore - I personally see no reason to pursue a "how many VF-11Cs are on the Macorss 7?" line of inquiry - because it's irrelevent.

If Macross 7 ever gets made into an OVA focusing on the events of the series itself - then we'd probably get ONE big battle where the Protodevilin do their sucking thing and 90% of the VF-11Cs are are destroyed... and maybe the lack of VF-11Cs would be a great plot point too.

Maybe the systematic destruction of the VF-11Cs would be the thing that tips Max's hand and gives him more leeway to pursue the Fire Bomber Attack option since his generals and officers don't have any Valkyrie left to fight with.

Maybe if Kawamori had thought it out a bit more - then this theme would have also found its way into Macross 7 the series?

Finally - maybe they BUILD the VF-11Cs on the ship?

There is, after all - the Einstein. I highly doubt they do nothing Valkyrie related there. And I would be surprised if Colony ships did not have their own Factories where Valkyries could be built.

Yes - it leaves the question of resources etc open - but...just some stuff to consider.

Ok then! I've finally gotten around to watching episode 8. First before I talk about things, while this hiatus was nice, we got crazy off topic during and that is partly my fault for bringing up some random things. So I should apologize for that. Now back to Macross 7.

The sort of pseudo recap at the beginning doesn't cover very much. Anyway, Gamlin getting suspicious, but with good reason if you ask me. Mylene is trying to live two lives. She started seeing Gamlin so she could get specials deals for Fire Bomber but she rather not let Gamlin know about her affiliation with the band. To me this indicates even this early she has some interest in him, otherwise she wouldn't care if he knew about her being in the band.

First Fire Bomber recording session in this episode. Wasn't that amazing. I blame Honey, most annoying character ever. He doesn't sound bad, but it seems like whoever animated him was purposely trying to make him look unrealistic even in the context of an anime! This is of course where we get that Galaxy Fight version of Planet Dance. I never really liked that version of it from Let's Fire really, but it seems the sound mixers in the episode didn't like it either. Despite it's overuse, the regular Planet Dance is better. At least in my opinion (of course there are far better versions of the song, but not from the show).

I usually do a science bit, but.... well there wasn't really anything in this episode that stands out to me as worth mentioning. No scientific failings, or anything exceptional worth mentioning (save for another example of the unlimited VF-11 roster). So yeah... guess I'll leave it on that.

Though I'd like to note that I chuckled seeing the recorders recording the music on CDs. I think by 2045 CDs will be phased out, but again this is an alternate universe with a main divergence point going back to 1999.

GREAT observation.

I have a knack for missing the obvious - I totally missed this.

You're right. I never noticed how Mylene will go to any lengths - even risking her body for marriage - to get Fire Bomber singing gigs!!

Amazing

Good point.

I still need to watch this episode - but truth be told - I'm happy to be the tardy one here - I love reading you guys going at it and if my being tardy means other people take up the baton and run with it for a while - great!!

Tomorrow, I'm going to the gym to work out and then I'm going to help my girlfriend clean her appartment...hopefully I'll convince her she needs to wear a sexy maid outfit while cleaning

The weekend will see me working and...um...cleaning her place some more ...

I have acquired a bunch of empty CD-Roms where I plan to Burn Anime - oh - I have also learned how to Burn CDs. It used to be that I had to download a bunch of software to do it - but my new laptop just has this button which says "BURN" and I click it - and hey presto - it's burned!

So...I just burned a J-POP CD album for my car.

I'll start downloading anime and burning it to CDs this week - eventually will get around to doing Macross 7 as well and getting caught up!

Final note:

Don't worry about "going off topic" if your tangent stretches from Macross 7.

The stuff you guys were discussing was all on topic as far as I'm concerned. The question of the nitty gritty of alien/human interaction and long-distance communication in space is not outside the bounds of Macross 7 which is all about a long range colonization fleet encountering aliens from another dimmension.

So it kind of begs questions like that!

Pete

Edited January 7, 2010 by VFTF1

[Master Dex]

Pete... I was just joking about the VF-11s. Calm down man, lol.

Anyway thanks for all the other input.

I should warn you, CD's only have about 700MB of data on them, you won't get much more than two episodes of the remastered M7 on a disc with that. If your computer can burn DVDs you can get 5 to 6 episodes there since they hold 4.7GB on average. However you may not have that capability, but it is your choice anyway.

I have the first 10 episodes of Frontier on two DVDs. I didn't continue burning the show because I got an external hard drive, which has just made everything so much easier. Sure I can't play it on my TV, but there are ways around that (I'm just too lazy to bother). Anyway, whatever works for you of course is best, I'm just telling you all the options.

On to the next then.

[VFTF1]

I should warn you, CD's only have about 700MB of data on them, you won't get much more than two episodes of the remastered M7 on a disc with that. If your computer can burn DVDs you can get 5 to 6 episodes there since they hold 4.7GB on average.

Wow. So they do. It's exactly as you say. I got myself a pack of 20 CDs and indeed they hold 700MB (80 minutes worth).

But I also have a 10 pack of DVD+Rs "Haute Sensibilites" (so they are very sensitive...because they are French?)

Anyways - those do indeed hold 4.7 GBs.

I'll just keep buying DVDs until I have Gurren Lagann, everything from Macross, both season of Haruhi Suzumiya and even more stuff burned. I'm also gonna buy some nice jackets or something to hold them there.

I have the first 10 episodes of Frontier on two DVDs. I didn't continue burning the show because I got an external hard drive, which has just made everything so much easier. Sure I can't play it on my TV, but there are ways around that (I'm just too lazy to bother). Anyway, whatever works for you of course is best, I'm just telling you all the options.

Oh yeah.. the External Hardrive option.

I think that would certainly be more economical than burning 7 million discs worth of stuff... hmmm ...hmm... hmm...

I need to go to my local computer super center and inquire about how much an external hardrive costs. THANKS!

Pete... I was just joking about the VF-11s. Calm down man, lol.

I thought it was a valid point you made - and it led me to an interesting line of thought - so I'm happy with your joke because it led to considering something serious - namely Stock Footage & the Question of Canon

Pete

[Master Dex]

Wow. So they do. It's exactly as you say. I got myself a pack of 20 CDs and indeed they hold 700MB (80 minutes worth).

But I also have a 10 pack of DVD+Rs "Haute Sensibilites" (so they are very sensitive...because they are French?)

Anyways - those do indeed hold 4.7 GBs.

I'll just keep buying DVDs until I have Gurren Lagann, everything from Macross, both season of Haruhi Suzumiya and even more stuff burned. I'm also gonna buy some nice jackets or something to hold them there.

Glad I could help then.

Oh yeah.. the External Hardrive option.

I think that would certainly be more economical than burning 7 million discs worth of stuff... hmmm ...hmm... hmm...

I need to go to my local computer super center and inquire about how much an external hardrive costs. THANKS!

Yeah, they aren't the cheapest things, but they will last. Price depends a lot on how much space you get. I got a 320GB external hard drive for about $90. Mine is also a portable drive, so that may have made it more expensive. I suggest MyBook or MyPassport, they are good hard drives (made by Western Digital, I prefer them). The MyBooks are larger and generally hold more (they have 1 Terabyte hard drives in that size now, that's 1000GB, crazy) so the cost is up. I originally planned to get a small 250GB drive, but they were out of that when I was buying and 320GB was the lowest and I was aiming to be economical, lol.

It has been working out well though. I have DYRL, the first 20 episodes of Remastered M7, all of Macross Zero, all of Macross Frontier (BD rips with Thora subs in fact), a dozen episodes of Beast Wars and a few TF Animated episodes, a DVD rip of Serenity, and a digital copy of the new Star Trek. There is still a good amount of room on the drive. So I can say it is worth the price.

[Freiflug88]

Not practical??

Surely the aliens, if they are biological beings who multiply through reproductive sex would at least like some of our girls!!??

This would in turn serve as the motivation to get them to recalibrate their equipment.

Don't believe me?

Look at Macross....

Pete

Why would aliens bother with the internet when they can beam up real girls with tractor beams?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/adver...e-up-totty.html

Besides no one in Macross would ever use the interenet for something like that...

Yeah, they aren't the cheapest things, but they will last. Price depends a lot on how much space you get. I got a 320GB external hard drive for about $90. Mine is also a portable drive, so that may have made it more expensive. I suggest MyBook or MyPassport, they are good hard drives (made by Western Digital, I prefer them). The MyBooks are larger and generally hold more (they have 1 Terabyte hard drives in that size now, that's 1000GB, crazy) so the cost is up. I originally planned to get a small 250GB drive, but they were out of that when I was buying and 320GB was the lowest and I was aiming to be economical, lol.

As for External Hard drives personally I found that buying the largest external hard drive can actually be the most economical solution because your getting the most data capacity for your money. For instance last year I bought a 1.5 Terabyte Hard drive that was on sale for $125 giving me 12 GBs per dollar. In my case though I knew I was going to be using a lot of Hard drive space with video editing and subbing DVDs so I knew I would use a ton of hard drive space. Also consider that the actual useable hard drive space you get is smaller then the advertised Hard drive space. For example my 1.5 Terabyte drive is actually a 1.36 Terabyte drive.

[Master Dex]

Why would aliens bother with the internet when they can beam up real girls with tractor beams?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/adver...e-up-totty.html

Besides no one in Macross would ever use the interenet for something like that...

As for External Hard drives personally I found that buying the largest external hard drive can actually be the most economical solution because your getting the most data capacity for your money. For instance last year I bought a 1.5 Terabyte Hard drive that was on sale for $125 giving me 12 GBs per dollar. In my case though I knew I was going to be using a lot of Hard drive space with video editing and subbing DVDs so I knew I would use a ton of hard drive space. Also consider that the actual useable hard drive space you get is smaller then the advertised Hard drive space. For example my 1.5 Terabyte drive is actually a 1.36 Terabyte drive.

Why Gamlin you dirty dirty boy!! Lol!

As for the hard drives, yes you are absolutely correct. I was on a limited budget when I got mine though, that is why 320GB was economical for me. Had I more money, I would easily have gotten a Terabyte. As for the usable space, that is always because there is a percentage that is used to help the device function. I have about 295GB out of the full 320GB in actuality, but still enough for me.

[Marzan]

Why would aliens bother with the internet when they can beam up real girls with tractor beams?

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/adver...e-up-totty.html

Ah Freifugl, and I thought I could go through my entire adult life without seeing a link to The Sun, that mainstay cornerstone of British life, in a Macross forum

You've made my day...