The MW rewatches M7 together Thread

[VFTF1]

TOPIC: WE'RE STILL ON EPISODE 1 ! BOMBA!

"Cool touch" ... that's like saying that Toronaga burning that one dutch guys balls on an open fire was a "cool touch" in Shogun For me, it was always so painful. Story wise, it did what it was supposed to do to my psyche - namely it made me scream "NOOOOO! I want MOOOORE!!!!" ... but personally, I prefer episodes which are more self-contained and have some more proper sense of closure rather than an abrupt ending.

This "quick ending" gets more and more "annoying" (or effective) as M7 goes along.

In any event - One thing that I do wonder about is the extent to which the story of Lyn Minmey is considered a myth or "fairy tale" by people on the various colony ships. You'd think people wouldn't be THAT surprised by what Basara is doing - particularly valkyrie pilots... but they are.

Then again - I guess this just goes to show that no matter what miraculous, stupendous achievements human beings manage in the past, all that is good and beautiful needs to be re-affirmed anew by new people in new situations.

Pete

Edited November 8, 2009 by VFTF1

[Gubaba]

TOPIC: WE'RE STILL ON EPISODE 1 ! BOMBA!

"Cool touch" ... that's like saying that Toronaga burning that one dutch guys balls on an open fire was a "cool touch" in Shogun For me, it was always so painful. Story wise, it did what it was supposed to do to my psyche - namely it made me scream "NOOOOO! I want MOOOORE!!!!" ... but personally, I prefer episodes which are more self-contained and have some more proper sense of closure rather than an abrupt ending.

This "quick ending" gets more and more "annoying" (or effective) as M7 goes along.

Hmm...I'll address this more as we get to episodes where it does cut off quickly.

In any event - One thing that I do wonder about is the extent to which the story of Lyn Minmey is considered a myth or "fairy tale" by people on the various colony ships. You'd think people wouldn't be THAT surprised by what Basara is doing - particularly valkyrie pilots... but they are.

Then again - I guess this just goes to show that no matter what miraculous, stupendous achievements human beings manage in the past, all that is good and beautiful needs to be re-affirmed anew by new people in new situations.

Pete

Look at this this way...we have many, many stories of people ending wars using unconventional means...like single combat between two champions, or a chess game, or something of that sort.

And yet...most wars don't end that way, and most people would be considered crazy for suggesting such an option.

Besides...the population in Macross knows that that's the way to deal with uncultured Zentradi...but it probably wouldn't work with other types of aliens. But again, more about that later...

[VFTF1]

Besides...the population in Macross knows that that's the way to deal with uncultured Zentradi...but it probably wouldn't work with other types of aliens. But again, more about that later...

Ahh - but this is something easily missed - namely - Lyn Minmey's music didn't just "deal with uncultured Zentradi" - it also dealt with an increasingly beligerant humanity that was on its' way towards becoming more like the Zentradi with their Grand Cannon, with their totalitarian military rule over the Earth, lying about the Macross' fate, refusing to accept the civlians back onto Earth... as SDFM TV progressed - the human race became indistinguishable from the Zentradi.

What allowed for a rebirth of humanity was the destruction of the planet which effectively destroyed everything - and when the war was over, BOTH the Zentradi and the surviving humans joined together to perpetuate culture.

And Minmey's songs touched the hearts not only of Zentradi but of people as well.

And this problem is continued in Macross 7 - look at Gamlin (sorry to harp on him like this - but we're just on Episode 1).

Gamlin - at the point of Episode 1 - is an honor bound warrior who thinks Nekki Bassara is not so much crazy as a HINDERENCE to effectiveness in combat. Gamlin just wants him to get out of the way so he can shoot more accurately.

What is the difference between episode 1's Gamlin in M7 and...Boldoza? I say- nothing really. They both don't see ANY alternative to war.

Boldoza's philosophy of life - the universe is full of conflict PERIOD...that is Gamlin's view as well.

And the singing is not just meant to restore culture to the Zentradi - but to preserve it amongst humans.

That's what Max remembers - that was the mission of the Megaroad and the colonization program - MAINLY to spread bunka in the universe - that would be preserving humanity...

Pete

[Gubaba]

Ahh - but this is something easily missed - namely - Lyn Minmey's music didn't just "deal with uncultured Zentradi" - it also dealt with an increasingly beligerant humanity that was on its' way towards becoming more like the Zentradi with their Grand Cannon, with their totalitarian military rule over the Earth, lying about the Macross' fate, refusing to accept the civlians back onto Earth... as SDFM TV progressed - the human race became indistinguishable from the Zentradi.

What allowed for a rebirth of humanity was the destruction of the planet which effectively destroyed everything - and when the war was over, BOTH the Zentradi and the surviving humans joined together to perpetuate culture.

And Minmey's songs touched the hearts not only of Zentradi but of people as well.

And this problem is continued in Macross 7 - look at Gamlin (sorry to harp on him like this - but we're just on Episode 1).

Gamlin - at the point of Episode 1 - is an honor bound warrior who thinks Nekki Bassara is not so much crazy as a HINDERENCE to effectiveness in combat. Gamlin just wants him to get out of the way so he can shoot more accurately.

What is the difference between episode 1's Gamlin in M7 and...Boldoza? I say- nothing really. They both don't see ANY alternative to war.

Boldoza's philosophy of life - the universe is full of conflict PERIOD...that is Gamlin's view as well.

And the singing is not just meant to restore culture to the Zentradi - but to preserve it amongst humans.

That's what Max remembers - that was the mission of the Megaroad and the colonization program - MAINLY to spread bunka in the universe - that would be preserving humanity...

Pete

Good point. Or, as Kawamori put it in his SDFM episode commentary, Minmay is important because she creates culture, and Hikaru and Misa are important because they protect culture.

But this gets into something of a sticky area, because a lot depends on whether or not one thinks My Fair Minmay should be put in the mix as well...since there, it's made explicit that the military is funding Minmay and pretty much pushing her onto the citizens in order to placate them. So she's a tool as well. Of course, no one expected the reaction the Zentradi would have towards her, but as far as the people aboard the Macross go, it seems that the military's plan for her worked out quite well.

Of course, if you go only by the TV show, you might come to a different conclusion...so who knows?

[Master Dex]

I always thought the only thing that stopped humanity from becoming more like the Zentradi was the Zentradi themselves, when they kind of killed everyone. True Minmay changed how everyone on the Macross as it was, but no one else on Earth even knew who she was. Minmay was only a galactic superstar because of the population of Earth was zapped (quite effectively I might add). The people of the Macross were bound together alone by more than Minmay music though, everyone else on Earth seemed to be against them, and the super cool totally awesome Global wasn't about to just let nothing come of these people after all they went through. In the end a lot of Zentradi were cultured but it wasn't really the rousing success of Fleet of the Strongest Women (will not talk further since that is a later episode) but this came about with the annihilation of the human race and Bodolza had to be killed as well.

I believe in the power of song and culture as much as anyone here and that it can do a lot, but in the end it wasn't Minmay or her music that helped humanity become better, that only made some 50,000 people get along well enough and cause some giant aliens to rethink their life. In the end what helped humanity become better and a little less belligerent was several million big honkin space guns. Also Global still feared they'd become like the Zentradi one day after getting the factory satellite, they were preparing to fight another war if more Zentradi showed up. The Colonization project was the next step in stopping them from becoming worse. Spreading them out was the best way, but that also thins the influence of said culture. It isn't that surprising that despite what people know as true in history, some people like the bridge bunnies regarded the Minmay effect as something from that movie (DYRL), and others have just forgotten there are other ways but just shooting it out and hoping to get around to the next day, because that method of dealing with things never quite went away either. Remember not all Zentradi laid down arms quietly. Some might not see the music taming method as being really that effective, after 35 years people might think all Minmay did was give the people on the Macross a morale boost. Some remember of course (Max, Millia, Exsedol, Chiba, etc.) but they were around back then. If you ask me, humanity doesn't do that great a job of teaching the newer generations just how important music and culture is to their race after SW1. People keep having to learn it over again!

[VFTF1]

But this gets into something of a sticky area, because a lot depends on whether or not one thinks My Fair Minmay should be put in the mix as well...since there, it's made explicit that the military is funding Minmay and pretty much pushing her onto the citizens in order to placate them. So she's a tool as well. Of course, no one expected the reaction the Zentradi would have towards her, but as far as the people aboard the Macross go, it seems that the military's plan for her worked out quite well.

Of course, if you go only by the TV show, you might come to a different conclusion...so who knows?

Actually - there is no contradiction. To say that the military was funding Minmey makes it look like something unique. But in fact, on the Macross, the military was funding EVERYTHING. In the sense that, the thing was a war ship totally under military command, and Macross city found its' way inside quite by coincidence.

What was the military supposed to do? Put all of those people into a storage bay and "let them eat tuna?" I guess it could have - but it made more sense to salvage as much of the city as possible from outer space and help people rebuild. Besides, the people of Macross city DID have a civilian government - and that government survived pretty much in tact (in the form of the mayor) to come aboard the Macross. I expect that the Mayor was not just a token figure, but in the situation, retained his legal authority over the civilian population, and his standing vis-a-vis the military was still governed by conventional Earth laws (whatever they were - they MUST have been there in some shape or form, since we are shown that, prior to the return of the Macross, there is STILL a civilian government on Earth that the military is subservient to).

That said - here's another point to think about: the distribution of goods and services on the Macross, prior to the rebuilding of the city, and pretty much right after/during the rebuilding, was centrally planned. This is explicitly stated when Minmey suggest reopening the restaurant and she discusses with her aunt and uncle how the military might give them "more rations" for this purpose.

The military - or more specifically Captain Global - who is in authority on the Ship - recognizes the benefit of allowing a civilian city to grow in the midst of the ship - it will help relieve stress for soldiers, give them something to do in off hours, and also most likely - if the civilians are engaged in productive economic activity - they will actually bring a net benefit to the Macross as such rather than being a simple drain on their resources that sits in a hangar, consumes food and grumbles about when they'll finally be brought home (Gundam, anyone?).

But let's not kid ourselves - once the city develops into full swing, that complex economic system was in no way shape or form the result of Captain Global sitting around or appointing a Great Planner to manage everything. And what about money? They had to have SOME kind of monetary system - and I highly doubt Captain Global decided to power up his Hewlett Packard Laser Printer and print monopoly money with his face on it for people to trade for goods and services.

It is never explained where money came from on the Macross or how the economy developed EXCEPT in one scene: Minmey taking the initiative to suggest and then help execute the re-opening of the Nian Nian restaurant.

For me - that scene is symbolic of how the entire city developed: All around, individuals decided that they'd rather do fun things instead of sit around pissing and moaning. They used the resources they could to rebuild the world around them in a way that made them happier - in this case, to make a "little Earth" on the Macross.

To say then that the military was "funding" Minmey is not really true - book or no book. Minmey was self-made. She opened the restaurant. She wanted to sing. She sang. The military gave her a venue and wisely helped her - but at key moments it was Minmey who took the initiative - especially during Global's speech about deciding to give amnesty to the Zentradi spies. Can there by ANY doubt that it was MINMEY - not Captain Global - who convinced the citizens of the Macross to accept the three spies despite all the death and destruction that the Zentradi had caused in countless attacks?

So what if it was on a military TV? Big deal. There would be no MBS if there weren't hundreds of people with talents and ideas who wanted to put something on it and other throngs of people who wanted to watch it.

So - for me - there's no "issue" here. Minmey did it herself - just like Nekki Bassara is trying to do on the Macross 7. So what if Max is "in on it."

Macross 7 will show us later on what it looks like when the military REALLY "Funds" singers...and it's not a pretty picture.

In the mean time - I say the military just wisely allowed people like Minmey to do their thing. They did not interefere -and really, we should stop saying "the military" and "they."

The credit goes to Global who is the Master of his ship. Just like on a boat, the Captain is the Law - so too Global is like a wise king on the Macross who allows the citizens to flourish.

So - nope. The military didn't "fund" Minmey. The military didn't do anything but wisely let her sing and wisely ask her to use her song to help the war effort rather than, for instance, censoring it and stifling it - which they COULD HAVE done. They could have said "what?! Use resources to rebuild a city on a battle space ship!? That's stupid! We need to melt all those remaining buildings down to make cannons and destroids etc etc."

Instead - Global made use of the citizens.

If you want to see what the Macross would have looked like if the economy were run differently - if rationing and central military planning of civilian life took precedent over allowing individuals to take their own initiative: look to Mobile Suite Gundam. That's a great example of what happens when the Captain of the ship just puts all the old people and children in a storage bay, takes the young boys and forces them into war machines and makes all the girls nurses or puts them behind a computer. But then again - White Base never had the chance to completely "loose" itself from Earth...

which brings me to my next point...

I always thought the only thing that stopped humanity from becoming more like the Zentradi was the Zentradi themselves, when they kind of killed everyone. True Minmay changed how everyone on the Macross as it was, but no one else on Earth even knew who she was. Minmay was only a galactic superstar because of the population of Earth was zapped (quite effectively I might add). The people of the Macross were bound together alone by more than Minmay music though, everyone else on Earth seemed to be against them, and the super cool totally awesome Global wasn't about to just let nothing come of these people after all they went through. In the end a lot of Zentradi were cultured but it wasn't really the rousing success of Fleet of the Strongest Women (will not talk further since that is a later episode) but this came about with the annihilation of the human race and Bodolza had to be killed as well.

I believe in the power of song and culture as much as anyone here and that it can do a lot, but in the end it wasn't Minmay or her music that helped humanity become better, that only made some 50,000 people get along well enough and cause some giant aliens to rethink their life. In the end what helped humanity become better and a little less belligerent was several million big honkin space guns. Also Global still feared they'd become like the Zentradi one day after getting the factory satellite, they were preparing to fight another war if more Zentradi showed up. The Colonization project was the next step in stopping them from becoming worse. Spreading them out was the best way, but that also thins the influence of said culture. It isn't that surprising that despite what people know as true in history, some people like the bridge bunnies regarded the Minmay effect as something from that movie (DYRL), and others have just forgotten there are other ways but just shooting it out and hoping to get around to the next day, because that method of dealing with things never quite went away either. Remember not all Zentradi laid down arms quietly. Some might not see the music taming method as being really that effective, after 35 years people might think all Minmay did was give the people on the Macross a morale boost. Some remember of course (Max, Millia, Exsedol, Chiba, etc.) but they were around back then. If you ask me, humanity doesn't do that great a job of teaching the newer generations just how important music and culture is to their race after SW1. People keep having to learn it over again!

Yes.

And more precisely - the Macross was like a rebirth of humanity - long before the destruction of the planet by the Boldoza fleet. This is because the Macross had to fend for itself, and was effectively on its' own and not hindered by the politics of Earth. The only limits on the Macross were those of nature and physical reality - and these limits are not as hard to overcome as the limits imposed by human stupidity, recalcitrance, corruption and evil.

Remember too, that the Earth that Boldoza destroyed was already effectively a dead planet anyways. The whole planet had become a military dictatorship. Those dudes that Global and Misa reported to in Alaska were the ruling oligarchs who had absolutely no interest in anything but power. To the extent that they were interested in defeating the Zentradi - it was mainly to save themselves and their territory. Humanity, in my view, at that point was really no different from the Boldoza fleet. There was nothing left but a facade.

What the Boldoza fleet and the UN Spacey did to eachother in initiating a genocidal planetary war was no different than what the Protoculture once did to eachother.

The Macross and Breetai's rebels were the remnant - the people who had become isolated from the collective and therefore enjoyed the freedom to see their enemies up close and learn about eachother and the need to fend for themselves and THINK for themselves rather than slavishly obey orders from up high.

It is because they were free and independent city-states in space that they survived while the two big collectivist, centralized tyrant civilizations blew themselves up.

Now what is happening on Macross 7 is history is repeating itself - and we see in Gamlin the same stubborn fighting spirit exhibited by...say...Gigil. And then we have Bassara diving into this singing a love song (or a disco tune, since planet dance is more about shaking your booty than about love).

The only difference between Bassara and earlier generations is that Minmey kind of stumbled into her role, while Basara is obviously self-consciously trying to achieve something that he knows from history is possible.

Pete

[Gubaba]

To say then that the military was "funding" Minmey is not really true - book or no book. Minmey was self-made. She opened the restaurant. She wanted to sing. She sang. The military gave her a venue and wisely helped her - but at key moments it was Minmey who took the initiative - especially during Global's speech about deciding to give amnesty to the Zentradi spies. Can there by ANY doubt that it was MINMEY - not Captain Global - who convinced the citizens of the Macross to accept the three spies despite all the death and destruction that the Zentradi had caused in countless attacks?

So what if it was on a military TV? Big deal. There would be no MBS if there weren't hundreds of people with talents and ideas who wanted to put something on it and other throngs of people who wanted to watch it.

So - for me - there's no "issue" here. Minmey did it herself - just like Nekki Bassara is trying to do on the Macross 7. So what if Max is "in on it."

Macross 7 will show us later on what it looks like when the military REALLY "Funds" singers...and it's not a pretty picture.

In the mean time - I say the military just wisely allowed people like Minmey to do their thing. They did not interefere -and really, we should stop saying "the military" and "they."

You haven't finished reading the book, have you?

[VFTF1]

No Not yet But I can still run my mouth of with the best of them

That said... I'm getting more and more convinced that we all don't remember anything about Macross 7. Mari Ijima makes an appearance for instance - and if that's NOT her then...she's still a very very very beautiful girl. More beautiful than Misa, she's the perfect woman...

Also - Bassara has a habit of picking his ear and eating what he pulled out - yuck - but there. Look. He's human. He picks his ear and then mindlessly chews on the crap

Um... but getting ahead of myself ....

I know...I need to finish reading the book...

But I read the important parts with the mouth stretching

Pete

Edited November 8, 2009 by VFTF1

[Bri]

Rewatched ep 1 a bit earlier today. Not much time to write a long piece on it so I'll just restrict myself to a few observations.

The character animation was excellent for a TV show of it's day. What struck me was the level of detail added to Basara and Mylene, where ever they are they stand out due more detailed coloring and shading compared to the rest of the cast. Backgrounds are also very nice, especially in the city.

The mecha action looks okay, the diamond valks kind of date the show to the time of the First Gulf war when the F117 was the new spectacular plane. The design hasn't aged well from my perspective and the VF11C's just steal the show till the VF-19 pops up.

Now that I think of it, IIRC this is also the first time we see hostile transformable mecha in Macross.

Clever use of the way Mylene is put forward as the viewers guide, she reguarly adds some dry remarks and observations to what happens around them. Basara already acts like the aloof but caring big brother to Mylene. Maybe that is where the intended age group can be derived from as Mylene seems to be positioned as an equal to the viewer instead of Basara. Which would put it around 15.

[VFTF1]

I'm becoming inclined to pull a Bassara in terms of pacing - there's a later episode in which, mid-song, he suddenly decided "screw this - since nobody seems to be enjoying this song very much, I'll just switch to the next one!" and - bam! - starts singing a new song, forcing the rest of the band to go along with his selfishness....

So - would it be fair to say that we've exhausted the well of opinions about episode 1? Have we given it a fair hearing?

Should we move on to episode 2?

Or am I just being impatient?

Pete

[Gubaba]

I'm becoming inclined to pull a Bassara in terms of pacing - there's a later episode in which, mid-song, he suddenly decided "screw this - since nobody seems to be enjoying this song very much, I'll just switch to the next one!" and - bam! - starts singing a new song, forcing the rest of the band to go along with his selfishness....

So - would it be fair to say that we've exhausted the well of opinions about episode 1? Have we given it a fair hearing?

Should we move on to episode 2?

Or am I just being impatient?

Pete

I think you're just being impatient. Give it enough time for more people to get on board, watch the episode, and talk about it. There will be lulls as teach week goes on, but that's okay. There were lulls in the Frontier discussions, too.

[VFTF1]

Ok...ok...I guess you're right. I was even thinking of having a democratic election in the tradition of Eastern European democracy - where I'd ask if we could move on when everyone was asleep, vote yes, there would be 0 no votes, and the motion would pass with 100% approval...

But yeah..you're right. It's just that there's this cute girl later on that I never noticed that I really want to oogle over...but...hm...fine...episode 1...episode 1...

I shall remain patient and sign off for now. Maybe if I don't look at the thread for a couple days it'll grow? Besides...Friday IS just around the corner now. I mean - it's already Monday. That means Friday's like TOMORROW not counting the days in between.

Pete

[Gubaba]

Episode 2: Spiritia Level

First Appearances: Dr. Chiba, Milia, Michael, Physica

Eyecatches: Gamlin / Mylene

Songs played (besides OP/ED): My Soul for You; Soko ni Aru no ga Mirai Dakara; Planet Dance (once all the way through, and then the intro)

Again, I'm watching this raw...but the remastered DVD quality more than makes up for it.

The puzzlement continues. The show closes in on a few explanations in this episode, but then veers away before anything can get revealed. After this one, we know that Basara got his Valkyrie from Ray, and that Ray has some kind of connection to Max, but that's it. However, a lot of stuff does get dealt with in this episode, mostly centering around Basara, Mylene, and Gamlin as their personalities get revealed.

All of them seem rather obnoxious in this episode.

Basara is supremely uninterested in his conversation with Mylene, giving one-word answers that don't actually answer any of her questions. It doesn't help that the questions she's asking are the same ones that we'd like to know: where did he get his Valkyrie? Why does he fly into battle and sing? Why does he have so many straws? Does that mean lots of girls come over to his pad? Mylene annoyingly peppers him with questions, and he annoyingly doesn't answer many of them.

The lemonade containers are cute, though.

The fact that Mylene has run away from home and is living on her own gets touched on in this episode as well, and I quite like the scene where Michael is getting nowhere trying to bust into Basara's room, so Milia just speaks to Mylene, knowing that the girl can hear her. (One of the things that's most gratifying about Macross 7 is that Milia hasn't lost her edge). There's of course a touch of Michael-Johnson-Comedic-Buffoonery™, but thankfully it's a short scene.

And then there's Gamlin...Basara is already becoming like a scab that he knows he shouldn't pick at, but can't seem to help himself. Still, it's interesting that Gamlin is the one who more or less forgets about the mission in order to scream at Basara. For someone with a reputation as a consummate military professional, he really seems to lose himself during this battle, more concerned with shouting at Basara than with fighting the enemy....especially since Kinryu tells him to leave Basara alone. I imagine that, as an elite pilot, Gamlin probably figures he'd be informed of any planned abnormalities; Basara's appearance, and everyone else's lack of concern about it leaves Gamlin out of the loop. Since he believes he must always be in the loop, clearly he thinks the fault lies not with him, but with Basara. It's hard to really sympathize with either of them during the battle, but at least he can understand where Gamlin is coming from. Basara remains a mystery.

As does the enemy. We get a hint from Exsedol, who thinks that the ships look human, but that's about it. The conserax sees nothing. Max doesn't know anything. And Gigil doesn't reveal much, either.

One of the touches I really liked is the opening of the episode, showing the cost of the previous episode's battle. Again, there's something kind of creepy about all these pilots lying in hospital beds, eyes open but apparently unconscious. The music fits well here, and the shot of the mother and child looking on in horror are well done.

But yeah...Basara's annoying, Mylene's annoying, Gamlin's annoying. I guess I can see why a lot of people get turned off at this point. Plus, the fact that Planet Dance (almost) gets played twice in this episode...it almost justifies the received wisdom about the show.

I wonder what the audience watching it as the show aired were thinking. Macross Plus Vol. 1 had come out a few weeks (I believe) before the first episode of Macross 7 aired. Were people trying to fit the two series together? It's funny, really...the YF-19 doesn't show up in the first episode of Plus, so people would've seen Basara's VF-19 before the prototype...did they realize at this point that the Valkyrie that Basara's flying is based on the one Isamu would be testing soon?

[VFTF1]

Episode 2

And from the gutt wrenching pain of half-consciousness rises VFTF1, drugged out on pills that had him hallucinating geometrical shapes all night long, coughing up a storm and generally feeling like the life is slipping from his weary, desolate form during the whithering hours of a grey, listless, uneventful winter, harsh in its' compulsive desire to press the idea of infinite hopelessness against you sick, decrepit body..

uh...

Anyways - thanks for writing up the review Gubaba. I remembered yesterday that it was "time" but just couldn't get out of bed to do it... Today, I'm feeling a bit better (for now), and was very happy that you took the time to keep this thread on schedule.

Thank you.

I shall now proceed to comment here:

1. The straws and the Lemonade

Although you paint Basara as annoying in your review for being somewhat oblivious towards Mylene's questions and giving one word answers to them, I think you miss out on a couple of things in this scene by defering too much to the stereotype.

First of all - I got the feeling that Bassara was oblivious to Mylene's questions because Mylene didn't really care about the answers. That is to say; she didn't come specifically to ask those questions; she came to seek out Ray's help in elluding her mom. I think her curiosity was cursory at best, and perhaps Basara detected this and was therefore not too intent on answering her.

Which brings up another question - to what extent, assuming that Mylene asks the questions the audience wants asked- do we really want answers to those questions ourselves? That is to say - wouldn't it be more appropriate to sing?

I guess what I'm getting at is that for Bassara, song is a universal form of communication. He's not inclined to sit down and have a long discussion on the subject when he can just sing. MORE - IF people NEED to ask the question, then this tells Bassara that his songs are not yet getting through to people.

So, is it any wonder that, whenever Bassara gets bombarded by questions like these, he concentrates EVEN MORE on his music? It's not that he's ignoring the questioner. He's accutely, I would even say painfully aware, of those questions and of the fact that they represent his failure.

As to the straws - well...they certainly mean SOMETHING.

And their mystery - in my mind - just adds another layer to Bassara's personality. Maybe he made those shapes himself, while deep in thought, working on lyrics and sipping lemonade? Maybe he does have lots of groupies come over and jam with him? Who knows? In any event - little things like that reveal personality and character. Bassara is not a robot.

He's not Terminator, living alone in a dingy apartment, functioning only to produce a sound that will get through to people. He has visitors. He has places t go, people to see. It's just that we don't get to see them - we just get hints of it, like with the straws.

I actually have to go back and watch this episode again before commenting more on it... it's been a while...besides, my brain feels like scrambled eggs and I can't breathe.

But other than that..BOMBA! ...

I'll be back with more on episode 2 as soon as I've watched it again...again

And thanks again Gubaba for your review. I'm unfortunately probably going to be more incoherent than usual until my illness passes...

Pete

[Ivan]

I happened to watch an episode of Silverhawks the other day, and all of a sudden, I realized jet fighter pilot with a guitar was not unique to Japan (I knew I've seen it somewhere before). The Americans may have come up with the idea long time ago, but then of cos, Basara is ten times cooler. Made me want to watch M7 all over again. And so, here we go...

Edited November 15, 2009 by Ivan

[VFTF1]

Cool. We await your impression with bated breath Hopefully when I get up tomorrow, you'll have some interesting stuff written up.

Bomba!

Pete

[Jasonc]

Wow, so much talking for ep. 1 only. I'll jump in this group action. As far as ep.1 synopsis, it looks like it's been well covered, so I won't go there. My thoughts of ep. 1, well, not much of it really impressed me, but it left enough to want to watch ep.2. The part of this that really got me excited was seeing Max Jenius in this. Realizing that he has a part in all this is exciting. As for the plot of the first episode, it kinda leaves a WTF at first, but you gotta love seeing mecha action so early in a series. I'll be watching it again tonight. What day are we watching ep. 2?

[VFTF1]

Technically we watched episode 2 last Friday. We're trying for 1 episode a week, so Episode 3 will be in 5 days. I cheated and have watched up to episode 9. That is why God struck me down with bronchitus, phenonia, a 39 degree celcius flu, and lungs tht leak icky goo like a rusty faucet in a decrepit upper Manhattan neighborhood where the only reason they say it's not as bad as the Bronx is because it happens to be on the island, even though it IS as bad as...oh...I'm totally going off topic here...

But - anyways - we're on episode 2. Gubaba has been kind and responsible enough to write the synopsis of that last Friday - which I, as thread starter, should have done, but I think I was passed out or in a haze of fever.

Um... anyways...yeah - so just watch episodes 1 and 2 together and tell us what you think Then we can all get to 3 on Friday...

As for Max...

Yeah...Max was a surprise for me too when I originally watched it.

And on that note - perhaps I'm breaking my own rules and being broad and general again...but beginnings lend themselves to such broad and general speculation so...

I wonder how the entrenched notion that Kawamori leaves old characters and old stories in peace and quiet (which is why no Misa/Hikaru in future Macrosses) squares with the fact that not only does Max (and later Milia) appear in M7, but that the characters are quite well developed. They clearly are suffering from the crisis that befalls most marriages after a few years - and it's almost a bit like the post Rain of Death episodes of the original SDFM TV series, where we later see how the surviving Zentradi try to assimilate to Earth life.

Well - in M7, we have a continuation of that theme - at least IF you regard Millia from the vantage point of her origins. Second generation post-Rain of Death Zentradi like Mylene (who actually is also half human) don't really fall into this category - like I presume Klan Klan in MF. These are Zentradi who are born long after the Zentradi human alliance is a fact and the two species have been coexisting long enough that new borns don't find there is any problem of assimilation to the "dominant" culture or anything like that.

But in M7, Milia is still assimilating, I think. Or, at the very least, some latent remnants of her origins MUST surely remain and influence her thinking. She has also, I think, clearly found that she has no use for Max anymore.

This is interesting here because...look ....

What was so endearing about Milia in SDFM TV (besides her fine breasts and long legs?) - well - it was her innocence. Her complete ignorance of basic male/female relations, not just sexual, but the entire romantic spectrum. And Max WAS an exquisite gentleman - that was clear before he met Millia. But it was MOST CLEAR from how he dressed her up to meet Hikaru - he dressed her like a true lady - not like some bimbo, not like some sex toy - but like a true lady. And he also taught her manners and graceful behavior. It was clear that Max was a fine instructor in how Millia was to become a Lady.

But then, by the time we meet the two again in M7, I get the feeling that Millia no longer feels she NEEDS Max. She is no longer under the spell of first love, nor does she look to him with the awe of a woman. Instead, she has reasserted herself and found that a strong woman DOES have a place in the "protoculture" way of life. She has found that her Zentrati rearing is not something that she must necessarily totally discard in favor of being a Lady.

And this is interesting for me - because I get the feeling that Max, on the other hand, has become preoocupied with taking care of the entire Macross 7, rather than this one woman. In SDFM TV, when he was a pilot, his genius as a pilot made it seem like he didn't really have to exert a lot of effort in his flying or combat. This left him lots of energy for the only truly challenging confrontation - living and loving Millia (the coffee incident was just one good example of this - have you EVER seen Max get very angry and upset and fail to stop something bad happening in ANY other situation, particularly combat situation? No. But here - with this woman in a domestic situation - it wasn't so easy for him. So clearly his marriage got the brunt of his attention)... Now he is Captain of the ship.

He wants to watch Mylene play in episode 1, but is called back to the bridge and is upset at himself for missing her concert - even though he admits that he can't really undestand contemporary music. But then again - in SDFM TV, Max wasn't exactly a big Minmey fan either, was he? Oh sure he cheered her on because it was the polite thing to do and he was gracious to her in person because he's a gentleman - but I never got the feeling that he was the musical type really.

Well - anyways...watch! watch! and let us know ! and join us!

Pete

[Gubaba]

Wow, so much talking for ep. 1 only. I'll jump in this group action. As far as ep.1 synopsis, it looks like it's been well covered, so I won't go there. My thoughts of ep. 1, well, not much of it really impressed me, but it left enough to want to watch ep.2. The part of this that really got me excited was seeing Max Jenius in this. Realizing that he has a part in all this is exciting. As for the plot of the first episode, it kinda leaves a WTF at first, but you gotta love seeing mecha action so early in a series. I'll be watching it again tonight. What day are we watching ep. 2?

Is this your first time watching the show?

[Jasonc]

No, I bought the FX DVDs a lonnnnng time ago, and watched them about 3 years ago. To be honest, I don't remember too much about it. I confess, I had some fun watching it, and making fun of the bad translations. Since I've been making DVDs of the new remastered w/ subs, it's been like watching all over again. I'll watch ep. 2 tonight then.

[MastaEgg]

The first 13 episodes are a test of faith. It gets much better after that.

[VFTF1]

The first 13 episodes are a test of faith. It gets much better after that.

Not to get ahead of myself but...this is one of the stereotypes I hope this thread will challenge. Like...what exactly is wrong with the "first 13 episodes" (or 8 or 10 or "the first few"). It's just a stereotype that doesn't hold up.

Maybe part of the "problem" is that indeed, there are no deep, insightful big explanations for what's going on in the beginning - Bassara never really tells us why he's playing his music, even when baggered in episode 2, we get zero explanation about the Protodevilin - in fact..they aren't even NAMED as the Protodevilin until way past episode 10 - so we the audience don't know who these wierd cross dressing vampires are. Lord Geplerich mummbles something about a Yume (dream? did I use the right Japanese word here), Gigil seems more preoccupied with being a pawn, we do see that the Vampires seem to be running tests regarding spiritia level but OTHER than the plot thread of "will Fire Bomber become a successful band or not?" all of the other aspects of the show are shrouded in mystery.

And this is bad...why?

It's NOT true that all they play is Planet Dance. It's NOT true that all that happens is the enemy attacks and Bassara goes to sing.

I really encourage people to jump in and WATCH THE SERIES with us because you'll see that the first 10 episodes have a lot of plot and a lot of variety packed into them.

You might STILL hate them.

But I highly doubt you can argue that the stereotype holds up. Soooo much happens over the course of the first ten episodes beyond just the singing to the enemy stuff -

1. We have the plot thread of whether Fire Bomber can make it as a band?

2. Their concerts start out really small - only a few fans in attendence

3. The constant work to get gigs and shortage of money comes up

4. The morotcycle gang theme/plot thread

5. The vacation resort plot thread

6. Gamlin and Mylene's courting/dating plot thread

7. Max and Millia's relationship

8. Mylene vs. Michael and the Gaurds plot thread

9. The myseterious nature of Project M slowly begins to be revealed

10. Dr. Chiba begins his study of the victims of the Protodevilin

11. Exodol has several thoughts which he keeps to himself and his analysis will lead him to conclude that the enemy ARE the Protodevilin

There's plenty more in there - but it's heavy. It's not repetitive. It's fresh and exciting.

12. We see Bassara slowly and methodically working on his next song - My Soul for You. We hear how Submarine Streat's Drum beat was just something Veffidas came up with on a rainy day...

How can people have such a stereotypical view of this anime?

join us and watch with us:)

Pete

[D.D. Ivanov]

Damn, wish I could join you guys on this...

...but the problem is I had to perform a system restore, and wasn't able to back up anything...

...which included every episode of each Macross series, OVA, and movies.

[VFTF1]

I lost my Macross 7 (and everything else) to a system restore as well. It happens.

But we're only on episode 2.

So it's not like you have to download all 47 episodes right now. Just download 1 and 2 and join us!

Worry about 3 on Friday

Pete

[taksraven]

This is all I have to say on the matter of Macross 7.......

Taksraven

[Master Dex]

I lost my Macross 7 (and everything else) to a system restore as well. It happens.

But we're only on episode 2.

So it's not like you have to download all 47 episodes right now. Just download 1 and 2 and join us!

Worry about 3 on Friday

Pete

People need to learn about external hard drives... makes these problems moot.

[Uxi]

I still have my bootlegs and just watched quite a few of the favorites last week (Battle at Lux, Kinryu's death ride, Operation Stargazer, Final Battle/last episode, and Fleet of the Strongest of the Women), but am still in process of downloading the remastered box. Then I'll apply the patches and be ready to catch up.

[shiroth]

I lost my Macross 7 (and everything else) to a system restore as well. It happens.

But we're only on episode 2.

So it's not like you have to download all 47 episodes right now. Just download 1 and 2 and join us!

Worry about 3 on Friday

I just recently finished rewatching the show a few weeks ago, though rewatching it an episode a week is a pretty sweet idea. Count me in.

@taksraven - Only Basara would be able to handle a Bomba drink.

[VFTF1]

and be ready to catch up.

Well - there's plenty of time to catch up because we're only on Episode 2 so far, and there hasn't been much by way of discussion yet because we've just got two episodes down...

But there HAS been a general tendency to constantly repeat the refrain that the first few (8, 10, 13 etc) episodes are basically all the same and things only get going later - and I've been trying to challenge that assertion.

I hope that as we progress in our viewing, we can bring that subject back up again with the benefit of having watched that beginning and re-think the premis of the stereotype.

Pete

why am I talking like Perceptor today?!

[Master Dex]

Well - there's plenty of time to catch up because we're only on Episode 2 so far, and there hasn't been much by way of discussion yet because we've just got two episodes down...

But there HAS been a general tendency to constantly repeat the refrain that the first few (8, 10, 13 etc) episodes are basically all the same and things only get going later - and I've been trying to challenge that assertion.

I hope that as we progress in our viewing, we can bring that subject back up again with the benefit of having watched that beginning and re-think the premis of the stereotype.

Pete

why am I talking like Perceptor today?!

Because Perceptor is freaking awesome.. though I'd try using bigger words myself.

Staying on topic... I haven't watched 2 yet... sorry.

[VFTF1]

EDIT -Although it didn't start out that way..this post has become my concise review of EPISODE 2

No need to be sorry. I need to re-watch it again as well. I saw it about a week ago, way before the Friday dead line...I'm so ahead! I need to slow down and get behind or let everybody else catch up... I feel so terrible since I should be keeping to schedule, but instead I get ahead, then get sick and write general posts about M7 instead of sticking to my own rules.

And now I'm pointing out that Perceptor is also a stupid Minicon and wagering that half of this day and ages' TF fans will sooner recognize him as that... or am I being pessimisitic? Don't answer that. It's off topic enough as is ...

Anyways...

To say something about episode 2 - wait...screw it...I'm gonna TURN ON episode 2 RIGHT NOW and say what's on my mind...

I'm watching and writing at the same time now...

Opening scene:

Basara is strumming on his guitar - working on what will become My Soul For You.

he stops strumming and starts taking notes.

And right here - how can you say that there's no interesting character development in this show??

I mean - come on - he's shown developing his music - the artistic process is shown...

And we cut to Gamlin at the hospital - and that's really great...and Gamlin's memories of what happened to Docker - with Bassara's music in the background...

Like two ways of life developing in parallel along with their consequences - so we're listening to Bassara working on his music while at the same time seeing what could be the negative effects of the interference of his music in the battles...

Or is it the sad result of war alone?

We see the futility of war in Gamlin's hospital visit contrasted with Basara's burning passion and dedication for music as a voice of love in a universe gone crazy.

And then we cut to the bridge and there's more military stuff - but Bassara keeps singing.

And then - after this comparisson of the artistic life to the military life - we cut to Mylene in her car arguing with her mom.

It's a wonderful scene because mothers and daughters always hate eachothers' guts - women are really vile to one another like that, so it's no wonder that Millia would send Michael and his goons after Mylene.

AND---

Here's another great part - we are introduced to this uncharted unregulated "slums" sector of Macross 7 where Bassara lives and Mylene flees to.

ANd she's come to see Ray, but ends up DISTURBING BASSARA.

Speaking of which -

we keep going off about how persistent Basara is and how he doesn't care about anything but his music ... But actually - notice what happens in this episode - he's not bothering anybody. He's just working hard on his music -and this testy girl shows up pounding on his door and then brings her family troubles with her.

That's so totally rude !!

So who's being persistent?

Suddenly Bassara can't work on his music in peace and quiet but has to confront huge body gaurds, the Mayor and take care of a whiney child who keeps battering at his door and making noise and has a little squeeky animal with her to boot.

And notice what a TOTAL CONSIDERATE GENTLEMAN Bassara is in this scene.

He COULD have said to Michael - oh, yes - that annoying little child is right here! Please take her away because I am an artist and need peace and quiet to work!

But instead - he sticks up for Mylene, lies for her and gives Michael the once over.

Only AFTER SAVING MYLENE does Basara immediately get back to his music.

Now - we think that this is where he starts ignoring her?

WRONG!!

This is where Basara pours his true love heart out to her!

The adults and bodygaurds are gone and he's got the cute girl to himself - so what's he supposed to do? Strike up a conversation?

Um no!

He's obviously going to sing in Mylene's presence in the hope that she'll be transfixed and love his music.

But she - being an annoying little girl - starts babbling and arguing with him..

If she would just SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO HIS SONG - then MAYBE she'd learn.

On this note - please notice that Bassara was upset in Episode 1 (and will be in episode 2) because the enemy didn't let him finish his song - and they weren't really listening either.

They're not the only ones - since even most PEOPLE on the MACROSS 7 don't listen to his music!!

Hell - not even MYLENE listens to his music!!

He's strumming a song callled MY SOUL FOR YOUR and Mylene is asking "why do you sing? Why this? why that? why why why?" like a 2 year old douche bag!

If she would just liten - she'd KNOW why he sings.

So much for your stereotype of Bassara the oblivious.

Oh - and now Ray comes in - and Bassara is AGAIN interrupted - but reacts like a total gentleman.

And of course the conversation goes to Mylene and her family problems. Bassara might not be very good at comforting her, but at least he is certainly not oblivious - and he DID HELP HER IN PRACTICE.

Anyways - then the enemy comes and Bassara's off to give his soul for everybody but whiny bratty little girly wirly Mylene is like ITSUKI ITSUKI ITSUKI (or whatever that word was) ("irresponsible!") and he's off and she's like "what about the Live concert?!"

At least Ray realizes what he's doing...

Anyways - now the military is launching again and the Bridge is full of activity. Diamond force launches and it's back to the routine.

You know - if anything - the TRULY REPETITIVE THING IN THIS ANIME IS THE STUPID MILITARY STRATEGY.

They just keep launching and getting screwed.

And then we cut back to Bassara's room and at least RAY FINALLY APPRECIATES THE SONG!! Unlike bratty little whiney Mylene who has a lot to learn about life.

And here- when Gamlin laucnhes - because now he's launching - notice HIS MOTIVE.

Bassara is humming about giving his soul for others and about love.

Gamlin thinks to himself that he will fight for the honor of Docker and Diamond Force.

So again there's a contrast - a contrast between the artistic life and the military life (with music contrasted to the hospital with the wounded and sadness of the living then and now honor as a motive for fighting vs. the music that Bassara goes out to sing and the concept of My Soul for You.

Now - the military DOES do something productive in this episode - namely they send out analysis crafts to see what exactly the enemy attack is life.

Now...

while Bassara is singing - cause he just began...

I want to focus on the fact that he's a civilian and the fact that Gamlin shouts to him "MINKANJIN!" get out of the battle zone!!

Now - remember the conversation in SDFM TV when Misa, Kakizaki, and Hikaru were captured and interogated by Boldoza?

Remember when the Zendtradi were like "Min-kanjin?!" like "civilian? What the hell is that?"

Well...

Gamlin says "Minkanjin!" to Bassara in a way that EXPLICITLY suggests that civilians have their "place" - and it's not in a battle - that's where soldiers should be.

And since the universe is full of war and conflict - then basically Minkanjins are supposed to sit around while the soldiers do the fighting - JUST LIKE THE PROTOCULTURE BELIEVED WHEN THEY BUILD THE ZENTRADI TO DO THEIR FIGHTING!!

But in Macross - it was a MINKANJIN - Lyn Minmey - who turned the tide and transformed the universe and destiny of humanity.

Because actually the civilians are the most powerful - they are more powerful than all the bullets and guns put together - but they aren't conscious of it.

And Bassara through his music is going to remind them.

In any case - as Ray says in the end - not even the people on M7 were cheering for Bassara.

Thankfully - whiny bratty Mylene..

oh - stupid me!!

I thought (as did we all watching it the first time) didn't go to Bassara to congratulate him or tell him "your music touched my heart" but to scream at him again USUTSKI USUTKI USUTSKI!!

Man - come on!!

This Basara guy does NOT get a break!!! HOW CAN YOU NOT SYMPATHIZE WITH THIS GUY BY THIS POINT PEOPLE!??!

1. He's sitting at home minding his own business in a slum far away from everybody not bothering anybody and a braty girl bangs down his door and interrupts him.

2. Then the bratty girl's mother shows up with 7 foot tall muscle bound body gaurds that would give Agent One a run for his money and they try to muscle in on Bassara!

3. When he's finally gotten rid of them and tries to go back to working on his music, the whiny bratty girl interrogates him! (this despite the fact that he was a total gentleman and helped her)

4. Then the enemy show up

5. Then Gamlin shows up and screams at him while other people are shooting at him trying to kill him

6. Then NOBODY listens to his music - not the humans, not the protodevilin, and NOT the star sex bomb cute girl character of the show Mylene! NOBODY!

7. And then he gets chewed out for being late to his concert!

the end.

And this show has no substance? And Bassara is just presented as a demi-god who waltzs on air and sings?

And this episode is "just the same" as episode 1? And next episode all 7 of the above things are going to happen again with no changes? Nothing new added?

This show is great!

Bomba!

Pete

Edited November 17, 2009 by VFTF1

[Uxi]

Interesting perspective that Gamlin (and Diamond Force and the rest of the M7 Valkyrie pilots) are a form of Zentraedi. I disagree, but it's interesting nonetheless. Gamlin has his own motivations, as your average VF-11C pilot would. If Basara didn't keep getting in Gamlin sights, Gamlin wouldn't get irritated.

That Michael guy looks like he would punk A1, though.

[VFTF1]

Interesting perspective that Gamlin (and Diamond Force and the rest of the M7 Valkyrie pilots) are a form of Zentraedi. I disagree, but it's interesting nonetheless. Gamlin has his own motivations, as your average VF-11C pilot would. If Basara didn't keep getting in Gamlin sights, Gamlin wouldn't get irritated.

Now that is very interesting - this part where you mention your "average VF-11C pilot" because there IS an "average VF-11C pilot" in Macross 7 who has very similar motivations to Gamlin at one point, but has an altogether different sense of what is going on around him...

I'm talking of course of RAY.

When Docker gets taken down, Gamlin visits in the hospital and draws inspiration to be even more lethal as a warrior.

When Stephen is killed by Ray's passionate warrior spirit - he recognizes the tragedy of warfare.

Maybe it's because Docker is technically not dead that Gamlin fights on instead of being broken?

I dunno.

But in any event - there you have it. Your average VF-11C pilot doesn't necessarily react like Gamlin...

Pete

[Uxi]

I thought Ray would be considered elite since he was in Pink Pecker with Kinryu and Stephen.

[VFTF1]

Well, technically yeah... But then again, Gamlin is not even a VF-11C pilot... he's in Diamond Force Right...?

But "Diamond Force" could mean just as much as "Skull Squadron" or "Vermillion Team" ...just because your team has a name...does it make you part of an elite squad?

I can't remember if, in episode 10, it's noted that the Pink Peckers were an elite force or not.....but probably it is...we'll keep that in mind as we move forward

Pete