HG and Robotech Debates

[VF5SS]

Also I haven't seen the Macross 7 franchise, but heard enough of it to turn me off (a sonic weapon that is used in space against mecha that have unpressurized cockpits? and a mecha that's so overpowered that it would be most likely banned as a weapon of mass destruction).

Hold up there partner. Are you talking about the Varauta fighters being hit with speaker pods? How do you know the cockpits are unpressurized? Did you you read that off some RPG site with fake information? Also what mecha is overpowered? Did you check the MDC values?

[Gubaba]

On another, much less cerebral topic, I fed the troll over at RobotechX...and it was fun.

Clearly, this guy is not a "typical" Robotech fan, but so far, he's been banned from RT.com and RTX.com and has managed to convince Memo to let him back in. Someone able to "beat the odds" like that must be formidable and influential in RT fandom, right? Right.

GUBABA:

So how goes the good fight? Is the Robotech fandom cleansed of the undesirable elements yet?

You're doing good work rooting out and exposing Macross Purists and other Harmony Gold haters. They're scum, and deserve to be treated as such. So keep it up! I'm rooting for you!

GHOST MAKER (aka PIZZA THE HUTT):

You are a weird one,I questioned your integrity when you had Matt Leblanc as your avatar and even covered it up sending me a link describing your avatar as some sissy sailor.*

You think I am as stupid as a "logical macross fan" by trying to humor me with a fake email to egg me on to a fight.I see what you say over at mw and it is sad you resort to such low standards and set the great example of macross fandom.Sad thing that a pathetic son of a hoe like you would never say this to my face.

You happy and rooting for me,obsurd! Even Seto never lowered to that level.If I did not know better I would believe you are happy penguins lover or alternate account.

And the name I use at mw is no mystery,I made it so obvious a long time ago but I will not tell you yet to make you go nuts trying to figure out who I am,since you and those pathetic moderators are stupid at mw (they are stupid and worthless because they do nothing to stop the bad example macross fans are) to figure who I am.

Have a nice day

GUBABA:

Priceless! You even spelled "absurd" incorrectly again!

Thank you, man...you are a gem and half!

And yes, I'm very low over at MW, aren't I? Just a rotten excuse for a human being. I wish I'd had good, nice parents who could have brought me up to be a shining example of all that is fine and noble in mankind (like yourself), but alas...I am a mere kid who reads the books of sissy sailors and gay Frenchmen and Irish drunkards, and who goes nuts trying to figure out who you are over at MW.

I wish I could enjoy such a fine, fine series as Robotech and converse at such a lofty, philosophical level as you do, but I guess my brain just isn't big enough.

Sorry for existing, and please forgive me for being "obsurd."

GHOST MAKER:

Well,Atleast I got enuf material to report you to Memo for harassment,you started on me and it is proof that you are here to annoy.It must be sad for you because your only power is to cause problems over the internet and insult people far away from you because you think you are all that being a jap crap macross fan.Do you even care that the example causes you to look as bad or worse than me? I do not call names out in public like you have to Memo and us Robotech fans.But that is your weakness,cannot insult to ones face so you do it online,like a spoiled teenager.I got macross fans on my friend list and they are normal and hate the way Seto,you and others set a bad example to the macross fandom but they do not say anything because the bad fans outnumber the good fans.

And as for forgiving your existance.well I blame your parents not you because only your kind of stupidity and arrogence can be inherited.

I got to go and foward these PM you sent me to Memo.

No need to thank me,I am glad to help you

GUBABA:

And yes, my bad attitude is readily apparent. I grieve about it on long winter nights.

I hope you will find it in your heart to forgive me for my hostile rants.

* This, by the way, refers to back over the summer when I had Thomas Pynchon as my avatar here. Pizza for some reason got it in his head that a photo which was obviously taken in the '50s was of Matt LeBlanc, so I sent him the link to Wikipedia. Since the only OTHER known photo of Thomas Pynchon was taken when he joined the Navy, he is shown wearing his sailor uniform.

Fun times, fun times.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention: it's been a few days, and I still haven't been banned.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Gubaba

[Freiflug88]

So what's next on the check list? The AFOS is still out there somewhere, waiting to judge humanity, and with an unknown level of technology. Sure it took a reaction missile to the face, but that didn't seem to phase it all that much.

As for the AFOS he already made a judgment that humanity was to be destroyed before Shin was able to calm Sarah allowing her to take control. He would probably be happy with the way humanity has progressed now. I also rewatched the end of Zero and the AFOS looked pretty banged up to me after absorbing the radioactive explosion of 4 reactions missiles with its fold barrier, but he probably healed his wounds some time ago. At this point in the timeline THAT AFOS from Zero just won't seem to be any real threat considering dimensional eaters, research into tearing open fold barriers from the Vajra, and of course as a living thing he is affected by music.

[Lolicon]

What's a "normal" Macross fan? Are they similar to "normal" Robotech fans?

...does he not know that Robotech is just hacked up "jap crap?"

[Gubaba]

What's a "normal" Macross fan? Are they similar to "normal" Robotech fans?

...does he not know that Robotech is just hacked up "jap crap?"

Whatever they are, they apparently never say anything bad about Memo, which seems to be what got Pizza the Hutt/Ghost Maker REALLY upset.

I like to think I'm relatively measured and reasonable in my dislike of Robotech...but maybe that's just because I'm comparing myself to people like Keith, VF5SS, and VFTF1...

[Jasonc]

Gubaba, LMAO!!! Just wow. Especially at this one.

You think I am as stupid as a "logical macross fan" by trying to humor me with a fake email to egg me on to a fight.I see what you say over at mw and it is sad you resort to such low standards and set the great example of macross fandom.Sad thing that a pathetic son of a hoe like you would never say this to my face.

Hahaha, I wouldn't say he's as stupid as a "logical macross fan", that'd be giving him too much credit. Since a few of his messages have been posted over here and he seems to use the term "son of a hoe" quite a bit, I wonder if he has some skeletons in the closet he doesn't want let out. Who knows, he may hate Macross fans because his daddy who left him and his mommy was a Macross fan. Who knows, she may have been "around" quite a few Macross fans. Seto, Gubaba, you aren't this kid's father, are you?

[Gubaba]

Gubaba, LMAO!!! Just wow. Especially at this one.

Hahaha, I wouldn't say he's as stupid as a "logical macross fan", that'd be giving him too much credit. Since a few of his messages have been posted over here and he seems to use the term "son of a hoe" quite a bit, I wonder if he has some skeletons in the closet he doesn't want let out. Who knows, he may hate Macross fans because his daddy who left him and his mommy was a Macross fan. Who knows, she may have been "around" quite a few Macross fans. Seto, Gubaba, you aren't this kid's father, are you?

Ah, you're just upset because he exposed you as someone posting on RT.com under a different name!

[D.D. Ivanov]

I find it hilarious that he thinks that we REALLY care about what his username is on this site.

[Gubaba]

I find it hilarious that he thinks that we REALLY care about what his username is on this site.

Oh, you mean YOU haven't been combing through the members list trying to figure it out?

He says he's posted here. I don't believe it, since his spelling and grammar are bad enough (and bad in such a distinctive way) that he should be instantly recognizable. Unless it's, y'know, all a put-on, and he's just PRETENDING to be a kid who can barely write.

[HappyPenguins]

I find it hilarious that he thinks that we REALLY care about what his username is on this site.

Aww but he wants us to care! He wants to feel special ^__^

[justvinnie]

Eh, Pizza obviously has lots of issues and is using his obsession with RT as a focal point to channel those issues. Unfortunately with mass communication so readily available, it is inevitable that the lunatics are often heard from the most.

Based on his grammar, spelling, and unique colloquialism, I'd say either he is not very educated or English must not be his primary language.

There is a certain irony in the fact that he thinks we set a bad example for Macross fans.

vinnie

[Seto Kaiba]

Whatever they are, they apparently never say anything bad about Memo, which seems to be what got Pizza the Hutt/Ghost Maker REALLY upset.

I confess I'm somewhat curious as to why (Pizza the Hutt / Ghost Maker) is so hung up on MEMO. He put an awful lot of effort into toadying up to him and trolling with the "you got owned!" and "you got served!" stuff in the various discussion threads about the Macross legal situation on Robotech.com and RobotechX, and he gets all irate whenever anyone insults or criticizes MEMO. He doesn't show the same sort of devotion to Maverick_LSC.

I like to think I'm relatively measured and reasonable in my dislike of Robotech...but maybe that's just because I'm comparing myself to people like Keith, VF5SS, and VFTF1...

Don't forget me in there... you're pretty much automatically demonized for being on good terms with me.

Seto, Gubaba, you aren't this kid's father, are you?

Nah, I'm pretty sure I've never fathered any illegitimate children... and if I did, I'd like to hope they'd inherit my writing skills. If what PTH/GM has told me about his life is true, he's probably in his mid-to-late 20s. He claims to have once been a prison guard.

I find it hilarious that he thinks that we REALLY care about what his username is on this site.

Yeah... it's kind of... out there... that he thinks we actually care who he is here. I've told him that we don't on several occasions, but he's openly admitted he's afraid of being flamed if he reveals what his account name over here is.

[Gubaba]

Eh, Pizza obviously has lots of issues and is using his obsession with RT as a focal point to channel those issues. Unfortunately with mass communication so readily available, it is inevitable that the lunatics are often heard from the most.

Based on his grammar, spelling, and unique colloquialism, I'd say either he is not very educated or English must not be his primary language.

There is a certain irony in the fact that he thinks we set a bad example for Macross fans.

vinnie

There is a difference, I think, between Pizza and the average insecure troll, and the difference is that despite (or because of) his attempted witch hunts against anyone he doesn't view as a "real" Robotech fan, he is apparently viewed as a valuable enough member that he could be reinstated after being banned from both RT.com and RTX.com...something which other, more coherent members with less baggage have been unable to do.

Again, to be clear, how they run their site is their business. But it's still curious, isn't it, that someone like this considered a valuable member over there...?

[Seto Kaiba]

he is apparently viewed as a valuable enough member that he could be reinstated after being banned from both RT.com and RTX.com...something which other, more coherent members with less baggage have been unable to do.

Let's be clear here, Pizza wasn't reinstated on RobotechX, he was perma-banned and had to make a new account to get back onto the site. He outed himself pretty quickly, but the guys who run RTX believe in second chances, but he put his second account in jeopardy almost right away. I have it on excellent authority that he's pretty close to earning another perma-ban.

Maverick_LSC denies reinstating him on RT.com, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out who did... MEMO.

[Gubaba]

Let's be clear here, Pizza wasn't reinstated on RobotechX, he was perma-banned and had to make a new account to get back onto the site. He outed himself pretty quickly, but the guys who run RTX believe in second chances, but he put his second account in jeopardy almost right away. I have it on excellent authority that he's pretty close to earning another perma-ban.

On most sites, isn't trying to get around a perma-ban by creating a new account frowned upon? So much so that it immediately earns you another perma-ban, no questions asked?

Maverick_LSC denies reinstating him on RT.com, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out who did... MEMO.

Well, of course he did! Who's going to report to Memo about the goings-on here if Pizza doesn't spy on us?

[Seto Kaiba]

On most sites, isn't trying to get around a perma-ban by creating a new account frowned upon? So much so that it immediately earns you another perma-ban, no questions asked?

Yeah, most sites have some kind of catch-all provision for banned users coming back under new screen names or using another member's account to post. It typically calls for a permanent ban for their new/borrowed account too. Of course, RobotechX is, at least on paper, a kinder, gentler fansite that doesn't believe in heavy-handed moderation of the boards. Instead of banning him outright once he confirmed the obvious, they decided to wait until he started with his old behavior again.

Well, of course he did! Who's going to report to Memo about the goings-on here if Pizza doesn't spy on us?

It's not like MEMO doesn't have an account here too... and it IS a public forum.

I think MEMO unbanned him because he's the only regular member who actually believes MEMO's insane, faith-based argument that Harmony Gold has full control of Macross and can use it as they see fit. Everyone else, including newbies who were new to the issue, were able to see right through it.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[HappyPenguins]

Nah, I'm pretty sure I've never fathered any illegitimate children... and if I did, I'd like to hope they'd inherit my writing skills. If what PTH/GM has told me about his life is true, he's probably in his mid-to-late 20s. He claims to have once been a prison guard.

Yeah... it's kind of... out there... that he thinks we actually care who he is here. I've told him that we don't on several occasions, but he's openly admitted he's afraid of being flamed if he reveals what his account name over here is.

a prison guard eh? No wonder he's such a homophobe

and of course he's afraid of getting flamed here, because he knows he can't win with his putrid arguments.

[VFTF1]

what do the comics bring to the table for you?

The only thing the comics bring for me is MW member Glane who seems like a nice guy and certainly is a very good artist.

Pete

[Einherjar]

Yeah, like I'd care who Pizza the Hut really was anyway. He's a nobody.

I sold a couple of Robotech comic books on ebay weeks ago. Maybe I should have advertised it on the boards to see if anyone was interested. Wanzerfan, were you interested in the Wildstorm and Antarctic Press comics?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...e=STRK:MESOX:IT

Edited October 29, 2009 by Einherjar

[Gubaba]

Don't forget me in there... you're pretty much automatically demonized for being on good terms with me.

Yes...he once accused me of "hiding behind your skirts," which I find odd for a couple of reasons: first, unless you're VERY different from the way I picture you in my head, I don't believe you wear skirts, and second, I don't recall hiding behind you for any reason.

But it's clear that he has certain catchphrases like "hiding behind X's skirts," "I blame your parents," "You got served!" and "don't worry, I'm here to help you" that he uses over and over, regardless of who he's talking to or what the situation is.

I also don't believe he's in his mid-to-late 20's, or that he was ever a prison guard. He's got to still be in his teens. If he actually IS older, well...then there's REALLY no excuse for him.

[HappyPenguins]

Yes...he once accused me of "hiding behind your skirts," which I find odd for a couple of reasons: first, unless you're VERY different from the way I picture you in my head, I don't believe you wear skirts, and second, I don't recall hiding behind you for any reason.

But it's clear that he has certain catchphrases like "hiding behind X's skirts," "I blame your parents," "You got served!" and "don't worry, I'm here to help you" that he uses over and over, regardless of who he's talking to or what the situation is.

I also don't believe he's in his mid-to-late 20's, or that he was ever a prison guard. He's got to still be in his teens. If he actually IS older, well...then there's REALLY no excuse for him.

proof that the evolutionary clock ticks backwards?

[Gubaba]

The only thing the comics bring for me is MW member Glane who seems like a nice guy and certainly is a very good artist.

Pete

True. But Wanzerfan is about the only person I've come across who seems to really like the comics, and I'm curious as to why.

Yeah, like I'd care who Pizza the Hut really was anyway. He's a nobody.

...says the guy who, COMPLETELY UNPROVOKED, mercilessly pounded Capt. Donovan, and forced him to sit in the back of the bus.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes...he once accused me of "hiding behind your skirts," which I find odd for a couple of reasons: first, unless you're VERY different from the way I picture you in my head, I don't believe you wear skirts, and second, I don't recall hiding behind you for any reason.

Yeah, I was kind of perplexed when he said something similar to me in a private message, accusing me of hiding behind HappyPenguins, who is at least the right gender to be wearing skirts. Never worn a skirt myself, but I have worn kilts on one or two occasions.

But it's clear that he has certain catchphrases like "hiding behind X's skirts," "I blame your parents," "You got served!" and "don't worry, I'm here to help you" that he uses over and over, regardless of who he's talking to or what the situation is.

It sort of makes you wonder if he's not some kind of automated trolling program that assembles obnoxious dialogue using a random number generator and one aggressively long IF-OR-ELSE statement.

I also don't believe he's in his mid-to-late 20's, or that he was ever a prison guard. He's got to still be in his teens. If he actually IS older, well...then there's REALLY no excuse for him.

I'm not gonna dig too deeply into what he really does for his day job. He claims to have once been a prison guard, and I recall him mentioning his current (or is it former now?) job is one of those generally unpleasant hourly jobs of the sort a high school kid normally does, though I forget if it was food service or something else. I'll wager that's where a lot of his hostility ultimately comes from... a genuinely unsatisfying, thankless, unstimulating, soul-crushing bore-fest of a job.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[VFTF1]

who seems to really like the comics, and I'm curious as to why.

I have found that the "why" question, insofar as Robotech is concerned, only works if you're talking to a penguin.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

I have found that the "why" question, insofar as Robotech is concerned, only works if you're talking to a penguin.

I disagree... there are Robotech fans out there who can (and do) present well-reasoned arguments to defend their love of Robotech. They're incredibly rare, and becoming rarer by the day as Maverick_LSC, MEMO1DOMINION, and their fanclub do everything in their power to destroy the Robotech fanbase from within, but they DO exist.

Generally speaking, the responses you'll get from most Robotech fans when you ask them why they're fans of any Robotech adaptation you care to name all boil down to one (or more) of these three basic responses:

#1. Nostalgia. Easily the most common response, most fans will give some flowery statement that essentially says that their devotion to Robotech springs from rose-colored memories of their childhood, teenage years, or a simpler, more optimistic time in their lives. We really can't fault them for this one, though it is a poor reason to overlook the flaws inherent in Robotech and the way its handlers have thoroughly mistreated it over the years.

#2. Ignorance of real anime. Quite a few Robotech fans cling to Robotech simply because they're totally unaware that there's better stuff out there in the same genre. These fans are fewer with each passing year, but they keep clinging to Robotech possibly because they're afraid trying a new series and liking it more will somehow invalidate their rose-tinted childhood memories of Robotech, or they simply have no clue how to go about getting the good stuff. Usually once these people are enlightened, they usually ditch Robotech altogether or pay it minimal heed.

#3. An avid dislike of real anime. The most belligerent Robotech fans often display an active hatred of real, unedited anime titles. Quite a few of them just can't be arsed to sort out the cultural context of various scenes, so they prefer to avoid them altogether. Others find the Japanese cultural references offensively foreign, and prefer to stick to Robotech because virtually all of the Japanese cultural elements have been excised from the component shows. A great many of these folks are usually motivated by ignorance of real anime, and prefer to rant about and bash shows they've never seen before. This is where a LOT of the Macross-bashing ones come from.

[VFTF1]

With all due respect, but you do realize all three of these 'common reasons why people like Robotech' are...how to put this diplomatically...mildly unconvincing? Somewhat lacking?

Ok...they suck!

I mean - I understand them - but if that's the best that Robotech fans can do...well... it's not much. I mean - doing things in life - ANY things out of sentiment, ignorance or willfull ignorance usually doesn't work out very well

I had hoped that there would be RT fans who would actually come out and shine some light of the creative genius behind the series ... but ...

hm...

Look how they aren't even in love with "Lisa" !

Notice how there are no dedicated threads to character art appreciation or people having Minmay vs. Lisa fights - and I'm not surprised. Robotech Lisa was a cardboard cutout from a 1920s movie where female actressses were mainly expected to :

a) go "aaahhh!!" whenever a monster showed up

b) swoon and say "I love you" to the lead male

I dunno...I just...the whole woman vs. soldier conflict that SDFM TV presents in her character - which makes her so attractive - it's gone...

But ok.

I guess I'm beating a dead horse here.

I'm actually quite fine with "I like Robotech 'cause it played a role in my sun shine childhood years and I don't know anything about anime."

I could say that about myself. I played the RPGs. I didn't know anything about anime.

Now I know about anime.

The end?

can we close the thread now?

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

With all due respect, but you do realize all three of these 'common reasons why people like Robotech' are...how to put this diplomatically...mildly unconvincing? Somewhat lacking?

Ok...they suck!

I didn't say they were good reasons, just that they were the most common themes in explanations of why fans like Robotech.

[Keith]

Not to be sounding rude...

Judging Macross 7 on hearsay is rash at best. You live in the future, and it's easily enough attainable. Watch it already!

[jenius]

You know, the flaws inherent in Robotech I think are a big part of its charm.

1) The show hooked you with its strongest arch, the Macross Saga, and it existed like a carrot there throughout the other sagas. You watched eagerly through Robotech Masters and The New Generation hoping for residual threads of coolness and references to the previous sagas. You saw the potential of Robotech and you hoped there'd be more of that potential surfacing throughout (and each arch does have its really good moments to satisfy occasionally). In this respect Robotech for me is a lot like golf. It only takes one really good swing or one really good hole to get me to want to play again. Your desire for it everyday to live up to the coolness you had seen previously and those occasional payoffs really sticks with kids who can't remember much of anything else from their childhood viewing.

2) Like that feeling of anticipation every day that the show would pay off as big as you knew it could came a LOT of let downs that also stuck with us fans. It's all the failures in it that people seem to have clung on to more than anything else. It was the fact people wanted Robotech soooo bad to be something more that really got under their skin. Look at all the debates on Robotech.com about all those BAD elements. Where was the SDF-2? Why doesn't Dana look the same? Why would M&M ditch Dana? Does Dana have a brother? Do the three mounds really make sense? Etc. etc. People would fixate on Robotech (after they were done seeing the show into many years after). Sure, those peaks of awesomeness made us love it when it was on but all the failures made us obssess about it later. "Oh man, only if I had had some say in how they wrote THIS aspect or THAT." "Oh man, if only they had bothered to pay for some unique animation to feel in THIS gap." etc.

3) The failure to get really kick ass toys also resonated with us early fans. We wanted Jetfire to be Rick's veritech. We wanted veritechs for everyone. For me, being brought into Robotech by my brother watching the VHS tapes, I didn't even have the joy of owning the 1/35 Alphas because they were long off shelves by the time I would have wanted one. I used to daydream about how a better Jetfire toy should be made. Heck, I even remember having dreams about being in Toys R' Us and finding old toys buried in the back. Yep, that's how much I wanted sweet Robotech toys growing up and I got just about zilch (I think I found some models at some Longs Drugs).

In summary, much of what made Robotech great to me was how much it failed to deliver. If you get everything you want you consume it and move on. Sadly, HG's many failures have taken this premise too far. They had chances to start satiating that old hunger in fans and cash in big but instead they bloated us with mediocre.

[Keith]

You know, that should be HG's new company slogan, "Failing To Deliver Since '85"

[VFTF1]

Heh heh - excellent idea Keith.

Also...

The show hooked you with its strongest arch, the Macross Saga, and it existed like a carrot there throughout the other sagas. You watched eagerly through Robotech Masters and The New Generation hoping for residual threads of coolness and references to the previous sagas

This is a really good point - and I hadn't given this as much thought as it deserves.

Tell me guys --- NOW we know that Robotech is composed of three seperate anime but...

back in the 80s...

Who knew?

Nobody - right?

I mean - people might have had suspicions - but it was not widely known that Robotech was pasted together from three different anime that had nothing to do with eachother...

So...

oh man! Look how they screwed with your head!

Every time somebody mentions ANYTHING from the Macross Saga in Masters or Southern Cross.... you THINK that maybe there's hope that in later episodes Rick and Lisa or the SDF-3 or whatever will show up...

Given how they actually sometimes combined footage from the Macross Saga with Masters or Southern Cross...you were brought to think it was even possible...

And so you keep watching through these episodes...thinking...maybe next week I'll see Lisa? Maybe next week we'll find out what happened to Rick?....

But the whole time - it's just hinted at and mentioned.

However - HG knew from the beginning that you'd NEVER SEE THEM.

Because they were never in the original footage for Mospedea and Southern Cross.

Talk about leading people on

And doing it on purpose!

"Hah hah - these stupid Robotech fans will keep watching because if we keep mentioning Rick and Lisa - they'll hope to see them in later episodes" ...

the strategy seems to have carried over into Shadow Chronicles...

Pete

[Gubaba]

You know, the flaws inherent in Robotech I think are a big part of its charm.

1) The show hooked you with its strongest arch, the Macross Saga, and it existed like a carrot there throughout the other sagas. You watched eagerly through Robotech Masters and The New Generation hoping for residual threads of coolness and references to the previous sagas. You saw the potential of Robotech and you hoped there'd be more of that potential surfacing throughout (and each arch does have its really good moments to satisfy occasionally). In this respect Robotech for me is a lot like golf. It only takes one really good swing or one really good hole to get me to want to play again. Your desire for it everyday to live up to the coolness you had seen previously and those occasional payoffs really sticks with kids who can't remember much of anything else from their childhood viewing.

As one of my older, wiser friends (he was 15 at the time) said back in 1985 or '86: "The thing about Robotech is, Macross is good." Meaning, of course, that Southern Cross and Mospeada were less so. And I haven't watched Southern Cross in Japanese yet, but Mospeada definitely had its moments...but so did nearly every '80s mecha anime I've seen.

2) Like that feeling of anticipation every day that the show would pay off as big as you knew it could came a LOT of let downs that also stuck with us fans. It's all the failures in it that people seem to have clung on to more than anything else. It was the fact people wanted Robotech soooo bad to be something more that really got under their skin. Look at all the debates on Robotech.com about all those BAD elements. Where was the SDF-2? Why doesn't Dana look the same? Why would M&M ditch Dana? Does Dana have a brother? Do the three mounds really make sense? Etc. etc. People would fixate on Robotech (after they were done seeing the show into many years after). Sure, those peaks of awesomeness made us love it when it was on but all the failures made us obssess about it later. "Oh man, only if I had had some say in how they wrote THIS aspect or THAT." "Oh man, if only they had bothered to pay for some unique animation to feel in THIS gap." etc.

Indeed You see this most obviously in the "How would you do the RLAM?" threads, where it's rarely about "Here's how I would fit the story into two hours and make it accessible for people who don't know or care about Robotech, or even science fiction." It's always "Here are all the things that I thought were handled badly in the show and how I would eliminate them." Usually involving beginning the story with Zor or taking Minmay out the picture.

3) The failure to get really kick ass toys also resonated with us early fans. We wanted Jetfire to be Rick's veritech. We wanted veritechs for everyone. For me, being brought into Robotech by my brother watching the VHS tapes, I didn't even have the joy of owning the 1/35 Alphas because they were long off shelves by the time I would have wanted one. I used to daydream about how a better Jetfire toy should be made. Heck, I even remember having dreams about being in Toys R' Us and finding old toys buried in the back. Yep, that's how much I wanted sweet Robotech toys growing up and I got just about zilch (I think I found some models at some Longs Drugs).

See...that was the problem back in '85. As I said elsewhere, there WERE no Robotech toys then. Oh sure, there were the Robotech Defender model kits, but most of them were from Dougram (three Macross kits and one Orguss thrown in for good measure). If you were a REALLY lucky "New Generation" fan, you noticed that the Gobots kits for Leader 1 was actually "Rook's" "Alpha Fighter" and Cy-Kill was "Lancer's" "Cyclone."

But I didn't see those until after I'd been to Pony Toy-Go-Round in Little Tokyo (and The Model Works in Pasadena) and was dazzled by the array of Macross toys and models. So, all during Robotech's initial run, it was Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada merchandise I was getting. By the time the Matchbox Robotech action figures started coming out, I was thoroughly converted to the original model kits (the toys were too expensive), and I looked at those action figures with contempt.

In summary, much of what made Robotech great to me was how much it failed to deliver. If you get everything you want you consume it and move on. Sadly, HG's many failures have taken this premise too far. They had chances to start satiating that old hunger in fans and cash in big but instead they bloated us with mediocre.

I think theis is probably right. If the Sentinels had been completed, I think most kids would've realized that it didn't hold a candle to the original. It, too, would've been mediocre. The fact that it wasn't finished allows fans to create in their heads what they would've wanted to see, and this it is beloved. (The same principle didn't work so well with Robotech 3000, however...).

If Shadow Chronicles had never made it past those early trailers, it would've been hailed as an uncompleted masterpiece, I'm sure.

[Gubaba]

Heh heh - excellent idea Keith.

Also...

This is a really good point - and I hadn't given this as much thought as it deserves.

Tell me guys --- NOW we know that Robotech is composed of three seperate anime but...

back in the 80s...

Who knew?

Nobody - right?

I mean - people might have had suspicions - but it was not widely known that Robotech was pasted together from three different anime that had nothing to do with eachother...

So...

oh man! Look how they screwed with your head!

Every time somebody mentions ANYTHING from the Macross Saga in Masters or Southern Cross.... you THINK that maybe there's hope that in later episodes Rick and Lisa or the SDF-3 or whatever will show up...

Given how they actually sometimes combined footage from the Macross Saga with Masters or Southern Cross...you were brought to think it was even possible...

And so you keep watching through these episodes...thinking...maybe next week I'll see Lisa? Maybe next week we'll find out what happened to Rick?....

But the whole time - it's just hinted at and mentioned.

However - HG knew from the beginning that you'd NEVER SEE THEM.

Because they were never in the original footage for Mospedea and Southern Cross.

Talk about leading people on

And doing it on purpose!

"Hah hah - these stupid Robotech fans will keep watching because if we keep mentioning Rick and Lisa - they'll hope to see them in later episodes" ...

the strategy seems to have carried over into Shadow Chronicles...

Pete

Well...I knew, because I'd read an article about Japanese robot toys around Christmas of '84 that showed a Valkyrie and gave a (very) brief run-down of the Macross story. And, as I said, I started getting Macross model kits that had strange names like "Hikaru Ichijo Type" and "Maximilian Jenius Type" on them. And then, soon after the "Robotech Masters" portion of the series (which at the time, I figured was "Macross II")...which of course didn't exist yet) started airing, I saw some Southern Cross model kits...strangely, the one of Dana Sterling didn't SAY "Dana Sterling" on it, it didn't even say "Dana Jenius." It said "Jeanne Françaix." By the time "New Generation" rolled around, I already had some Mospeada kits, so I kept wanting to shout at the screen, "It's NOT called an Alpha Fighter, it's a LEGIOSS!! And his name's STICK, not SCOTT!"

It would not be an exaggeration to say that the main reason I dislike Robotech now was because of all the information I found out then.

[VFTF1]

I can only sympathize for how alone you must have felt back then - with no internet, and legions of people ready to say "It's true cause I saw it on Television!" ...

Interesting stuff

Pete

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

On another, much less cerebral topic, I fed the troll over at RobotechX...and it was fun.

Clearly, this guy is not a "typical" Robotech fan, but so far, he's been banned from RT.com and RTX.com and has managed to convince Memo to let him back in. Someone able to "beat the odds" like that must be formidable and influential in RT fandom, right? Right.

GUBABA:

GHOST MAKER (aka PIZZA THE HUTT):

GUBABA:

GHOST MAKER:

GUBABA:

* This, by the way, refers to back over the summer when I had Thomas Pynchon as my avatar here. Pizza for some reason got it in his head that a photo which was obviously taken in the '50s was of Matt LeBlanc, so I sent him the link to Wikipedia. Since the only OTHER known photo of Thomas Pynchon was taken when he joined the Navy, he is shown wearing his sailor uniform.

Fun times, fun times.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to mention: it's been a few days, and I still haven't been banned.

Okay. This is officially the funniest thing I have read in a week. Gubaba you'v just made my day!