HG and Robotech Debates

[Jasonc]

What big company owns Tatsunoko now?

[RedWolf]

What big company owns Tatsunoko now?

Takara-Tomy

[Jasonc]

Thanks, forgot the name. So, my question following is this...Will this change the gameplan of renewing HG's license? Does Tomy have any relations with Bandai/Big West/Studio Nue??? I was thinking about this during work (which is odd, trust me). Just thought I'd put a question out there and see the various speculations fly here.

[VFTF1]

The most obvious speculation is that we'll get a Macross/Transformers cross over

Bandai, which is after all the sponsor of MF can counter with "Macross vs. Gundam."

Speaking of which...you know...given how in Japan it seems like everybody and their mothers have merchandising licenses - this whole behavior of HG is ridiculous. I mean - just inside of Japan itself we have Yamato doing Macross valkyries - yes ... but Bandai can reissue its' old chunkies and did. It also reissued its' old SDFM TV model kits. Kaiyodo has the license for doing Revoltech Macross and are going to do those transformables now. It seems like every company gets to have a crack at making anime models, statues, toys etc.

Granted, there are some properties, such as Gundam, which seem to be exclusive to Bandai - unless I'm mistaken and forgetting about something... but it seems that only they do Gundams - whether models or figures.

Oh - and Transformers are exclusive to Takara-Tomy Hasbro.

But beyond those two properties - it seems like buying the license for a season or two and trying to bring out toys that your company specializes in is not difficult in Japan.

I like that. I like that differet companies get to have a crack at making something unique.

Pete

Edited December 22, 2009 by VFTF1

[hulagu]

The most obvious speculation is that we'll get a Macross/Transformers cross over

Bandai, which is after all the sponsor of MF can counter with "Macross vs. Gundam."

They already have, in the form of the Super Robot Wars.

Actually, come to think of it they are a little alike, frankensteining various unrelated shows and characters into one continuity, and very loosely butchering adapting the storylines of the original.

[Jasonc]

I'm curious if Tomy will decide to renew the Macross license w/ HG, or will they ask for more money, or will it be business as usual?

[VFTF1]

I think if Takara-Tomy had the option, they would give the license for Macross to Hasbro - would make business sense since the two have been working together very well (it seems) for decades.

As critical as I have been of Hasbro's toys over the last few years, Hasbro having the license for Macross in the USA would definitely be more promising than HG having it.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

I think if Takara-Tomy had the option, they would give the license for Macross to Hasbro - would make business sense since the two have been working together very well (it seems) for decades.

Now that would definitely be a more promising situation for Macross fans... having the rest-of-world Macross distribution and merchandising rights in the hands of a company that actually had a clue how to run a franchise without having to base their entire business plan around keeping the competition out by any means necessary or resorting to chicanery to keep their fanbase loyal.

Of course, Macross fans will naturally see this as a very desirable outcome, as it potentially means there's one less obstacle to stateside Macross licensing. For Robotech fans, this is nothing less than a nightmare scenario, as losing the Macross license essentially means the end for Harmony Gold's Robotech franchise. Not only is the Macross series far and away the most popular part of Robotech, almost all of Harmony Gold's Robotech merchandise is Macross-based. Without the Macross license, the story of the "original 85" falls apart, and their merchandising plans collapse.

[VFTF1]

Well - it could also be a new nightmare for states side Macross fans if Hasbro is given complete freedom to do as it wishes with the license.

For starters - don't kid yourselves that Yamato valkyrie will suddenly pop up in wallmart. BEYOND the licensing issue, there is one other reason Yamato Valkyrie can't be mass marketed (imo) at toys'r'us etc- namely - they are not built in accordance with child safety laws.

Hasbro would have to invest heavily in remoulding them to be child safe - but that would defeat the purpose I think -it would be a loosing proposal.

As for the Macross series themselves - well - Hasbro is mainly into kids entertainment. It has been pointed out here that even in Japan, MF aired pretty late - this ain't kids entertainment. Hasbro would have to take a slightly differet route OR they would have to figure out some way to market this as a kids' show..

Oh yeah - they wouldn't even actually have a show to market really - because they don't have the license for Macross Frontier and wouldn't get it - we're just talking about merchandising rights to SDFM TV and possibly DYRL...

Hasbro has zero experience in the anime market. Despite their huge experience in the boys and girls toy market - they are not in the business of anime/manga or adult collectibles.

I think marketing Macross as such in the USA presents its' ow set of challenges and Hasbro would have to think outside the box to get it done right. It wouldn't be a simple matter of copying their formulae for GI Joe and Transformers - or if it WOULD be that...then I fear whatever they produce will be just as bad as Shadow Chronicles.

I am of the opinion that the best thing that could happen for Macross and for anime in general is for artificial barriers such as borders to simply dissapear. People all over the world can already view and buy this stuff on the internet. I know that Japanese "don't care" about the outside market - but actually...that's not quite true. Given how much they export, it is not true they don't care. Bandai, Yamato etc naturally do center their marketing strategies on Japan as such, but the medium is undisputably globally popular.

Finally - look at the designs of anime characters - they are mostly "universalist" designs - they are by no means specifically japanese, and while many conventions and behaviors are Japanese/based in Japanese culture - the stories are accessable to all people, not just "Japanese people."

Eventually, Big West needs to just make a Macross Channel on the internet. Like Hasbro has a TF channel where you can see various episodes from G1, BW to Armada etc.

They need to have a Youtube channel and they could do well to just Sub-title their stuff.

This is why in a way, I think the whole "licensing debate" thing is dead in the water anyways. It's lame duck stuff.

The market for anime is clearly indicating that the internet is the premium medium, internationally. What's the point spending millions on lawyers and court cases when you can just open a Youtube channel, subtitle the stuff you own and let the world watch it?

As for buying - Yamato's can be legally bought and sold in the USA. You just can't distribute them officially. You can't put an add on TV saying these are Macross toys. But bought and sold as adult collectibles? Yes. If I buy something from Japan - it's my property. I can sell it if I want to. And I don't need a license from anybody to sell it.

Merchandising and selling collectibles second hand are two different things. HG has a very narrow interpretation of the laws governing commerce - and clearly I think that if they were right then BBTS would have been forced to stop selling Yamato products. As such - the Macross version 2.0 stuff is on their website.

So what's the big deal?

It's over already.

HG has lost. Doesn't matter what proofs Memo or anybody else writes - the real battle was not waged in court rooms or between lawyers but rather on the global market place - and Macross won because it captured the hearts of fans world wide. Yamato and Bandai products won because they are superior to Toynami, just like Macross Frontier, Zero etc were and are superior to Shadow Chronicles and anything else put out by HG.

That is the only battle that counted at the end of the day.

Pete

[Marzan]

Now that would definitely be a more promising situation for Macross fans... having the rest-of-world Macross distribution and merchandising rights in the hands of a company that actually had a clue how to run a franchise without having to base their entire business plan around keeping the competition out by any means necessary or resorting to chicanery to keep their fanbase loyal.

Of course, Macross fans will naturally see this as a very desirable outcome, as it potentially means there's one less obstacle to stateside Macross licensing. For Robotech fans, this is nothing less than a nightmare scenario, as losing the Macross license essentially means the end for Harmony Gold's Robotech franchise. Not only is the Macross series far and away the most popular part of Robotech, almost all of Harmony Gold's Robotech merchandise is Macross-based. Without the Macross license, the story of the "original 85" falls apart, and their merchandising plans collapse.

We can only dream that this would happen someday...

[azrael]

I'm curious if Tomy will decide to renew the Macross license w/ HG, or will they ask for more money, or will it be business as usual?

Actually, Tatsunoko became a subsidiary to Tomy-Takara when Takara bought majority stake in the company. They will continue to act independent of Takara considering Tomy-Takara is primarily a toy maker and Tatsunoko is an animation studio. And it probably won't change anything, at least on the HG-end.

[Freiflug88]

The most obvious speculation is that we'll get a Macross/Transformers cross over

Pete

1. Optimus Prime would never condone the exploitiation of underage musicians for child porn.

2. Optimus's first spoken line ever was "Unless a new supply of energy is found, nobody is going to win this war." He needs Robotech's magic biofuel not Macross's extinct alien culture.

3. No transformers has ever been shown killing a being that was flesh and blood in anything that didn't have Michael Bay's name on it, and all of them learned to aim from Stormtrooper academy and are only accurate with harmless laser beams. Againist any Macross foes besides the nonliving Ghosts and Sharon Apple Box, the Transformers would just waste our time with a laser show.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Jasonc]

Optimus Prime: "You mean, Sheryl will be performing on Cyberton? Deculture!!!"

[Funkenstein]

Someone should make a 4koma about Macross/Transformers.

[Einherjar]

HG has lost. Doesn't matter what proofs Memo or anybody else writes - the real battle was not waged in court rooms or between lawyers but rather on the global market place - and Macross won because it captured the hearts of fans world wide. Yamato and Bandai products won because they are superior to Toynami, just like Macross Frontier, Zero etc were and are superior to Shadow Chronicles and anything else put out by HG.

That is the only battle that counted at the end of the day.

HG lost, but they're not dead yet. They'll use their influence as much and as long as they still can for profit or bust. The LAM was supposed to be one if they other unaffiliated talented people ever get to work on it. Since they've "strategically" put all current projects on hold for it, there's extreme pressure building for them if results don't come in soon. It's the kind of thing that destroys reputations.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

Optimus Prime: "You mean, Sheryl will be performing on Cyberton? Deculture!!!"

Optimus Prime a Sheryl fanboy? And here I thought he was just your typical asexual robot that only listened to Stan Bush.

You sure it wasn't Rick Hunter who said that while he was piloting Jet Fire?

[Bri]

The most obvious speculation is that we'll get a Macross/Transformers cross over

Pete

Optimus Prime: "You mean, Sheryl will be performing on Cyberton? Deculture!!!"

Isn't Optimus a Kawamori design as well? Come to think of it a Convoy homage in Macross alone would be aswesome. RT just can't win.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Bri

[hulagu]

You sure it wasn't Rick Hunter who said that while he was piloting Jet Fire?

Yeah, exactly what was it with that with the Jetfire toy again?

[RedWolf]

Yeah, exactly what was it with that with the Jetfire toy again?

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Jetfire_(G1)#Generation_1

[Freiflug88]

Isn't Optimus a Kawamori design as well? Come to think of it a Convoy homage in Macross alone would be aswesome. RT just can't win.

Yup, Kawamori designed Battle Convey who was renamed Optimus Prime. Was Battle Convey nearly as iconic and popular in Japan as he was in the States though? I mean I am sure he was popular with Daiclone fans, but he was competing with alot more super robots then just "Voltron" over there in Japan.

[Save]

1. Optimus Prime would never condone the exploitiation of underage musicians for child porn.

Hate to brake it to you but Prime is a Lolicon.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Pete

Bandai has a youtube channel It sucks not much up there. Manga Entertainment is doing most of the anime on youtube including robotech. the only site i could think of that woudl stream bandai content (legally) would be crunchyroll. But since they're based in the us the follow copyright laws and all.

[Einherjar]

Bandai has a youtube channel It sucks not much up there. Manga Entertainment is doing most of the anime on youtube including robotech. the only site i could think of that woudl stream bandai content (legally) would be crunchyroll. But since they're based in the us the follow copyright laws and all.

I think Manga Entertainment is able to show Robotech legally because they were the ones who were given the rights to release it in the UK and Europe (ADV didn't have a UK division to release the DVDs there). When ADV folded, Robotech became Manga's by default and they were free to add it to the catalog of shows available online until something else comes along. I'm thinking this would not have happened if ADV was still around, since it was a real big hit for the medium. Plus, no one is willing to re-release the series again now that they're gone, heck, it might not even be worth it to do release another identical version again, unless people are hoping WB will decide to do it eventually.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Einherjar

[Wanzerfan]

So if it's not HG then the culprit is the Toho Company.

I found the list of the anime titles they distributed in Japan and the ones they gave to western companies for the U.S. market. Macross: Do You Remember Love's American distributor was listed as Celebrity and Lensman was Streamline.

Now I know this is just too, too easy but does Toho still retain their distribution for DYRL? It would seem to me that BW, Tatsunoko, & HG need to talk to them to clear up who has distribution rights.

http://www.tohokingdom.com/anime_list.htm

http://www.tohokingdom.com/anime/macross84.htm

What a boner of a name that film had for American release "Attack of the Bionoids".

[Seto Kaiba]

What a boner of a name that film had for American release "Attack of the Bionoids".

It was Clash of the Bionoids, not Attack of the Bionoids... and it was a heavily edited version released under Celebrity Entertainment's "Just for Kids" line. I've never seen it myself, but I've heard the dub was atrocious, and nearly thirty minutes of footage were removed, including part of the ending to make it look like Hikaru died.

[Wanzerfan]

Sorry, my bad. I was close, but as the saying goes, close only counts in horseshoes and symtex.

[Seto Kaiba]

Sorry, my bad. I was close, but as the saying goes, close only counts in horseshoes and symtex.

No, the saying goes nothing like that... it's "close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades", and it's Semtex, not "symtex".

[Freiflug88]

Hate to brake it to you but Prime is a Lolicon.

Figures, nearly every male main charater in anime seems to turn out to be a lolicon.

I think Manga Entertainment is able to show Robotech legally because they were the ones who were given the rights to release it in the UK and Europe (ADV didn't have a UK division to release the DVDs there). When ADV folded, Robotech became Manga's by default and they were free to add it to the catalog of shows available online until something else comes along. I'm thinking this would not have happened if ADV was still around, since it was a real big hit for the medium. Plus, no one is willing to re-release the series again now that they're gone, heck, it might not even be worth it to do release another identical version again, unless people are hoping WB will decide to do it eventually.

When ADV was around I believed they showed Robotech and/or Macross on their subscription based Anime Network channel. If WB or some one else every does bother re-releasing Robotech on DVD it will probably be done as a tie in with the RLAM.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Freiflug88

[VFTF1]

You guys have it all wrong. Optimus Prime Kiss Player was not a lolicon.

In Kissplayer - Transformers could not transform unless transformation was activated by a kiss from a beautiful girl. This is also why Megatron was after the lolis.

Come to think of it - it's the only Transformers series that made any sense.

Too bad it went nowhere.

As for Clash of the Bionoids or whatever it was called - umm.... this brings to mind a question:

It appears that only Macross had the misfortune of being systematicall butchered in the 1980s. I mean... there were some piss poor cartoons and anime, and some great ones, and some in between ones - but to my mind Macross was the only one that was so badly treated in the USA. Am I missing out on knowledge of other victims?

Pete

[Freiflug88]

Kissplayer sounds like episode 1 of SD Gundam where the unconsious hero gundam is magically reactivated with a kiss, from a male mecha otaku of all people.

Macross wasn't the only victim by any means:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main...asteTranslation

[Einherjar]

When ADV was around I believed they showed Robotech and/or Macross on their subscription based Anime Network channel. If WB or some one else every does bother re-releasing Robotech on DVD it will probably be done as a tie in with the RLAM.

I remember that, even with cable you had to pay extra money for that station, if it was even available in your part of the world at the time. With Manga, they're doing it for free and taken away the incentive for customers and the company to release it on DVD again. Going Blu-Ray and giving some extra commentary from the cast and crew is pretty much the only thing new anyone can offer.

[Freiflug88]

Yeah, the Anime Network's biggest flaw was that you had to pay extra to subscribe to the channel. If ADV had made Anime Network a 24 hour Toonami channel available to users for free solely through commerical sponsershio then I believe it would have been much more successful. As a subscription based anime channel though it was out of reach for the many young fans who didn't have access to credit cards and of course wouldn't ask their parents to subscribe to the Anime channel so that they can watch anime when they should be doing homework.

[Jasonc]

I remember that, even with cable you had to pay extra money for that station, if it was even available in your part of the world at the time. With Manga, they're doing it for free and taken away the incentive for customers and the company to release it on DVD again. Going Blu-Ray and giving some extra commentary from the cast and crew is pretty much the only thing new anyone can offer.

And, while some fans have the series 2 or 3 times already, do you think there'd be a large number buying the series on Blu-ray? The fanbase is shrinking, and those that are still fans, how many would pay yet again to have Robotech's set?

I was thinking that the heavy banning and no news is for two reasons. For the bannings, it's both ignorance from mods, and 2) HG does it so that negative word about the show, or franchise hit WB. As for no news, same reason. HG continues to say that all is well, simply because saying anything different will make it lose it's potential as a WB product. With no product, no updates, and nobody with the license to distribute their media in buyable format, all HG really has it their word right now, which has proven doesn't mean too much. I speculate as to whether or not the lack of news and appearance of a great franchise they are trying to generate is really going to work? I would be interested in seeing a LAM, but Robotech has gone into a reactive mode and defensive strategy, that is starting to bleed through its cover.

[Ginrai]

It appears that only Macross had the misfortune of being systematicall butchered in the 1980s. I mean... there were some piss poor cartoons and anime, and some great ones, and some in between ones - but to my mind Macross was the only one that was so badly treated in the USA. Am I missing out on knowledge of other victims?

Allow me to introduce you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Harlo..._Thousand_Years and well as Ziv's Captain Harlock: http://www.cornponeflicks.org/harlock/ZIVharlock.html

...and of course the rest of the anime movies mangled by Celebrity's Just for Kids line including Dallos, Cyborg 009, Osamu Tezuka's Phoenix, Techno Police 21C (the first Artmic production), Dagger of Kamui, and many more.

[VFTF1]

I feel fortunate that I never heard of those and can one day enjoy them in their original form without the mental anguish of having to burn my childhood memories and nostalgia...

I guess that's the good thing about having been a Transformers fan all throughout my childhood. It was crap - but it was TRUE crap!

Unless there's a lost Diaclone manga or anime out there that will ruin that fantasy too... although even if there is...hah hah...who cares... Transformers itself doesn't care at all about its' "continuity" anyways

Pete