HG and Robotech Debates

[Seto Kaiba]

Blame? It was a cool comic.

Y'know, I somehow interpreted this as an off-topic comment about how Blame! when I was skimming this topic...

meh same poop different toilet

reading MEMO's posts gives me a headache

Any sane or logical person could say the same... it's not just the constant caps-lock shouting, it's the conspiracy theorist logic he's using.

[Robelwell202]

Any sane or logical person could say the same... it's not just the constant caps-lock shouting, it's the conspiracy theorist logic he's using.

What makes it really pathetic is, these ideas (Conspiracy theory, etc.) aren't his. He's just acting on what the Number One Robotech Fan tells him.

[taksraven]

Any sane or logical person could say the same... it's not just the constant caps-lock shouting, it's the conspiracy theorist logic he's using.

Also that gibberish that he considers to be English.

Taksraven

[BeyondTheGrave]

Also that gibberish that he considers to be English.

Taksraven

I'll take that over whatever dougbendo writes.

[Freiflug88]

http://io9.com/5429572/british-court-storm...belong-to-lucas

The British Court of Appeals considered Storm Trooper designs "industrial designs" rather then art and thus ruled their copyright void after 15 years by British Law. I am sure Robotech fans will be looking at as something for Harmony Gold to potentially exploit for using the Macross mecha designs as both the US and Japan have this 15 year clause with Industrial Designs.

Though I wouldn't be surpised if this ruling is overturned in the future as Lucas plans to go all the way to the Surpreme Court and he will probably bring some arguement about it is art and how this ruling goes againist international conventions of copyright.

[MastaEgg]

What in the heck is this thing? I've never seen that color scheme in Macross. HG taking creative freedom with their merchandising?

[Moly_Sigang]

http://io9.com/5429572/british-court-storm...belong-to-lucas

The British Court of Appeals considered Storm Trooper designs "industrial designs" rather then art and thus ruled their copyright void after 15 years by British Law. I am sure Robotech fans will be looking at as something for Harmony Gold to potentially exploit for using the Macross mecha designs as both the US and Japan have this 15 year clause with Industrial Designs.

Though I wouldn't be surpised if this ruling is overturned in the future as Lucas plans to go all the way to the Surpreme Court and he will probably bring some arguement about it is art and how this ruling goes againist international conventions of copyright.

Once MEMO hear this, he'll try and twist this news for his own agenda. Now i don't know much about copyright laws, so i'll ask this question on our resident guru Seto: How does 'Industrial Design' fall into the copyright of Macross, and how will it affect the Macross/Robotech copyright mess?

[taksraven]

http://io9.com/5429572/british-court-storm...belong-to-lucas

The British Court of Appeals considered Storm Trooper designs "industrial designs" rather then art and thus ruled their copyright void after 15 years by British Law. I am sure Robotech fans will be looking at as something for Harmony Gold to potentially exploit for using the Macross mecha designs as both the US and Japan have this 15 year clause with Industrial Designs.

Though I wouldn't be surpised if this ruling is overturned in the future as Lucas plans to go all the way to the Surpreme Court and he will probably bring some arguement about it is art and how this ruling goes againist international conventions of copyright.

George Lucas must be looking for his own Sonny Bono, since Sonny saved a certain mouse from public domain years ago......

Taksraven

[taksraven]

What in the heck is this thing? I've never seen that color scheme in Macross. HG taking creative freedom with their merchandising?

Its HG being full of shite as usual....

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

What in the heck is this thing? I've never seen that color scheme in Macross. HG taking creative freedom with their merchandising?

What that is is a cheaply-manufactured convention-exclusive knockoff of the Macross 25th Anniversary VF-1, with Strike packs. The paint scheme is almost a direct copy of the 25th Anniversary VF-1, as is the design of the toy itself, though I believe it's a smaller scale than the original. Harmony Gold stealing everything that isn't nailed down, as usual.

The British Court of Appeals considered Storm Trooper designs "industrial designs" rather then art and thus ruled their copyright void after 15 years by British Law. I am sure Robotech fans will be looking at as something for Harmony Gold to potentially exploit for using the Macross mecha designs as both the US and Japan have this 15 year clause with Industrial Designs.

Honestly, I don't think there's any way for Harmony Gold to exploit this one... and it'll probably be overturned on appeal anyway. The British court's logic appears to be something along the lines of "props of generic or utilitarian design aren't art because their distinguishing traits are trivial or nonexistent". The Imperial Stormtrooper armor may be familiar, but it's not exactly distinctive in and of itself, it's just gloss-white plastic body segments and a fairly bland helmet. If you saw someone wearing white glossy body armor, you couldn't immediately point to that and say "that's from Star Wars" and expect to be correct. I don't think the ruling could even be extended to anything props which are distinctively Star Wars, like C-3PO's face, or the helmets worn by Darth Vader and Boba Fett, or a distinctive character from another series like the Dalek from Doctor Who.

I don't think this ruling could be applied outside of background props in live-action movies... let alone to a whole other type of cinema. The majority of the Macross designs ARE distinctively Macross, so I don't think there'll be any worries there. As it stands, the judge limited the scope of the ruling to only within the UK, so it's a non-issue where it actually matters (the US), where the guy actually didn't even bother to defend the lawsuit because he knew he'd lose.

I have to agree with Lucasfilm's argument though, the stormtrooper armor design is a fairly integral part of the story of Episode IV, it's part of the movies as a whole, and therefore is art by dint of being a component of a piece of cinematic art.

I get the feeling that the courts see Lucasfilm's copyright on such a generic design to be open to all kinds of abuses, like to sue other filmmakers for any generic design that looks even remotely similar. They haven't done so, but I think that's probably what the court is thinking.

Though I wouldn't be surpised if this ruling is overturned in the future as Lucas plans to go all the way to the Surpreme Court and he will probably bring some arguement about it is art and how this ruling goes againist international conventions of copyright.

And oh boy does it ever... but again it's only applicable to prop designs with a "utilitarian" purpose, so it's kind of vague in and of itself, and will probably end up overturned on its next appeal.

Once MEMO hear this, he'll try and twist this news for his own agenda. Now i don't know much about copyright laws, so i'll ask this question on our resident guru Seto: How does 'Industrial Design' fall into the copyright of Macross, and how will it affect the Macross/Robotech copyright mess?

Oh, he'll try... he'll no doubt "forget" that the scope of the UK judge's ruling only covers the UK. They're not saying that Lucasfilm's copyright on it isn't valid, just that it's being treated differently inside the UK. If that guy tried to take his stuff outside the UK again, he'd be open for another lawsuit like the one he already lost against Lucasfilm in the US. Since this case only applies to props of "utilitarian" purpose, I don't think it could be rationally applied to Macross in any way, as virtually all of Macross's mechanical designs are distinctive and figure into the story in fairly major ways at one point or another, and none of them are utilitarian background props in a live-action movie.

[jenius]

What that is is a cheaply-manufactured convention-exclusive knockoff of the Macross 25th Anniversary VF-1, with Strike packs. The paint scheme is almost a direct copy of the 25th Anniversary VF-1, as is the design of the toy itself, though I believe it's a smaller scale than the original. Harmony Gold stealing everything that isn't nailed down, as usual.

No, that's just you regurgitating what you've read on the Internet from people who never bothered looking at both toys at the same time.

The Yamato 25th anniversary toy is absolutely NOT an original paint scheme that Yamato struggled to create. In fact, the Yamato 25th anniversary is a very COMMON paint scheme that's been slabbed on numerous products, race cars, and advertising campaigns over the years. They took a toy that was made black and then put some gold in a few places and mispelled some words on it.

But what about the Stealth? It's black, maybe Toynami ripped it off right?

No... other than the fact they're dark you can't really say they look like an inverted paint scheme or something cheap like that. EDIT - there are some similarities to be sure... but also notable differences.

In the end, if toys being DARK makes them rip-offs of other paint schemes then yes, Toynami TOTALLY ripped off Yamato's Stealth AND their VF-1(25) toy. More realistically, people like dark toys and Toynami created their own paint scheme using Navy Blue as the base and black and gold as their trim. It does have both black and gold... but man, that's a pretty big leap to full rip-off status.

Of all the stuff you can nail HG and Toynami for... I don't believe the paint scheme of the Stealth is a valid criticism. Also, it's a non-canon product and they have merchandising rights for the VF-1 outside of Japan so there's nothing really worth griping over there.

Edited December 21, 2009 by jenius

[RedWolf]

Being around Transformers toy hobbyists all I can say black is the cheapest color there is thus favored for repaints.

[azrael]

Once MEMO hear this, he'll try and twist this news for his own agenda. Now i don't know much about copyright laws, so i'll ask this question on our resident guru Seto: How does 'Industrial Design' fall into the copyright of Macross, and how will it affect the Macross/Robotech copyright mess?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_design

I'm not sure it applies here, unless we start mass-producing VF-looking vehicles with the exact same function. If I'm reading it correctly, the Stormtrooper costumes were mass-produced stunt men for the movies, so they are covered by design law. If it was a one-of-a-kind design, then design law doesn't apply. Because Stormtrooper costumes come from concepts of full-body armor, it's not so much art as it is a conceptual design. Why? Because for generations, we've been making full-body armor. We may have modified things here or there, but the concept remains the same, full-body armor. An industrial designer can take the Stormtrooper costume, modify and apply it to real-world armor design. It won't look pretty but its function would be identical. Heck, G.I. Joe: Rise of Cobra had a full-body armor suit.

No, that's just you regurgitating what you've read on the Internet from people who never bothered looking at both toys at the same time.

The Yamato 25th anniversary toy is absolutely NOT an original paint scheme that Yamato struggled to create. In fact, the Yamato 25th anniversary is a very COMMON paint scheme that's been slabbed on numerous products, race cars, and advertising campaigns over the years. They took a toy that was made black and then put some gold in a few places and mispelled some words on it.

But what about the Stealth? It's black, maybe Toynami ripped it off right?

No... other than the fact they're dark you can't really say they look like an inverted paint scheme or something cheap like that. EDIT - there are some similarities to be sure... but also notable differences.

In the end, if toys being DARK makes them rip-offs of other paint schemes then yes, Toynami TOTALLY ripped off Yamato's Stealth AND their VF-25 toy. More realistically, people like dark toys and Toynami created their own paint scheme using Navy Blue as the base and black and gold as their trim. It does have both black and gold... but man, that's a pretty big leap to full rip-off status.

Of all the stuff you can nail HG and Toynami for... I don't believe the paint scheme of the Stealth is a valid criticism. Also, it's a non-canon product and they have merchandising rights for the VF-1 outside of Japan so there's nothing really worth griping over there.

Agreed. HG was basically pumping out a design to uphold their trademark. Yes, it's a cheap way to get more of a product out there but frankly, Yamato does the same thing. All those recolored VF-1s? Same thing as our "Stealth Veritech". It's really not worth getting all worked up crying "RIP-OFF!!!".

[Robelwell202]

No, that's just you regurgitating what you've read on the Internet from people who never bothered looking at both toys at the same time.

The Yamato 25th anniversary toy is absolutely NOT an original paint scheme that Yamato struggled to create. In fact, the Yamato 25th anniversary is a very COMMON paint scheme that's been slabbed on numerous products, race cars, and advertising campaigns over the years. They took a toy that was made black and then put some gold in a few places and mispelled some words on it.

But what about the Stealth? It's black, maybe Toynami ripped it off right?

No... other than the fact they're dark you can't really say they look like an inverted paint scheme or something cheap like that. EDIT - there are some similarities to be sure... but also notable differences.

In the end, if toys being DARK makes them rip-offs of other paint schemes then yes, Toynami TOTALLY ripped off Yamato's Stealth AND their VF-25 toy. More realistically, people like dark toys and Toynami created their own paint scheme using Navy Blue as the base and black and gold as their trim. It does have both black and gold... but man, that's a pretty big leap to full rip-off status.

Of all the stuff you can nail HG and Toynami for... I don't believe the paint scheme of the Stealth is a valid criticism. Also, it's a non-canon product and they have merchandising rights for the VF-1 outside of Japan so there's nothing really worth griping over there.

While I would agree that the Black 'Stealth' paint scheme is rather generic, I would argue the timing of the Toynami release, as well as two rather glaring thefts from DYRL.

First, the timing of the release is quite dubious, as it coincides too conveniently with the release of the Mac-25th release. It's just too coincidental for my tastes.

Second, the square missile pods and the strike parts are direct rip-offs from DYRL, and were never parts of the original Robotech series. As such, including them into a Robotech toy/mechandise line is grounds for disgust, if nothing else.

For me, it just goes to show the depths that HG will go to to make a buck, and with Tonyami's lack of quality, I can only wonder how this thing is actually made.

Nah, it's a rip-off, pure and simple.

[Gubaba]

Second, the square missile pods and the strike parts are direct rip-offs from DYRL, and were never parts of the original Robotech series. As such, including them into a Robotech toy/mechandise line is grounds for disgust, if nothing else.

And impotent disgust is really all we can logically feel, since HG does indeed have the merchandising rights to DYRL. It's not like they haven't drawn from that well before, since they released those "superposables" years ago.

Of course, five and a half years ago, they ALSO said they could release DYRL itself on DVD...I wonder whatever happened to those plans...?

[Robelwell202]

And impotent disgust is really all we can logically feel, since HG does indeed have the merchandising rights to DYRL. It's not like they haven't drawn from that well before, since they released those "superposables" years ago.

Of course, five and a half years ago, they ALSO said they could release DYRL itself on DVD...I wonder whatever happened to those plans...?

Well, the disgust and bile generated in me comes from the simple fact that I keep wanting to scream "DO SOMETHING ORIGINAL!!!" to these asshats at HG, but I know what I would get.

First, I would get Steve and Co. saying that they, indeed, have the rights to these designs, and then...

I'd get Kevin McKeever telling me "We are doing something original (but I can't talk about it)."

then, MEMO and Mav would try to ban me from the general fandom for being too logical. "WHAT YOU SAY MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE. RETURN YOUR ADV-VERSION DVDS AND LEAVE RT TO US IDIOTS. HEHEHEHEHE"

I just can't win.

[jenius]

eh nevermind, I think we all get it.

Edited December 21, 2009 by jenius

[Seto Kaiba]

Of course, five and a half years ago, they ALSO said they could release DYRL itself on DVD...I wonder whatever happened to those plans...?

My guess would be those plans fell through when they found, as AnimEigo's Robert Woodhead put it, nobody knows who actually has the distribution rights to the movie anymore. About the only way to figure out who had them would be to try and release it and see if anybody tried to take you to court for it...

[Gubaba]

My guess would be those plans fell through when they found, as AnimEigo's Robert Woodhead put it, nobody knows who actually has the distribution rights to the movie anymore. About the only way to figure out who had them would be to try and release it and see if anybody tried to take you to court for it...

Which is odd, because, presumably, AnimEigo knew by 2000 or 2001 that THEY couldn't release DYRL, but Tommy was saying that HG could in 2004.

(Yeah, it's in the video Memo provided ( about 4 minutes in:

). I make a non-speaking, uncredited cameo appearance towards the end. )

And really, if anyone could release DYRL here, it's probably HG, since they have the trademark on the name. Anyone else trying to release it would have to deal with their lawyers at some point anyway. If THEY were to release it, they could easily bring up the fact that they have TM on the name "Macross" in the western world, and have the merchandising rights to the movie. Realistically, they could probably steamroll right over any of the other companies claiming rights on the movie.

So...if HG has all the rights they say they do...why don't they release it?

[Seto Kaiba]

Which is odd, because, presumably, AnimEigo knew by 2000 or 2001 that THEY couldn't release DYRL, but Tommy was saying that HG could in 2004.

(Yeah, it's in the video Memo provided

Um... where exactly in that video? I skipped to the 4 minute mark and was unable to locate any remarks as to Harmony Gold's ability/inability to release DYRL in the US and abroad. All he does say is that Harmony Gold acquired the merchandising rights to DYRL outside of Japan after news reports of the Macross legal situation in Japan prompted them to check with Tatsunoko to see if the rights they had acquired under license had been affected in any way.

EDIT: Found it... but he doesn't elaborate on it... he says they can "release it as a product" but then only talks about the merchandising rights to the movie. The only rights he actually says they acquired are the "rest of world" merchandising rights to the movie... which makes me think that the "release it as a product" line is a goof and he meant to say "release products based on it".

And really, if anyone could release DYRL here, it's probably HG, since they have the trademark on the name. Anyone else trying to release it would have to deal with their lawyers at some point anyway.

Well yes, but this isn't news... we already know that.

So...if HG has all the rights they say they do...why don't they release it?

Because they don't... I don't think they've ever claimed to have the distribution rights to it. If they had, Macross fans would probably be a lot less ill-disposed towards them, given a high-quality DYRL release in the US.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Gubaba]

EDIT: Found it... but he doesn't elaborate on it... he says they can "release it as a product" but then only talks about the merchandising rights to the movie. The only rights he actually says they acquired are the "rest of world" merchandising rights to the movie... which makes me think that the "release it as a product" line is a goof and he meant to say "release products based on it".

Hmmm...that's a possibility, since "We are able to release Macross the movie as a product" is a pretty strange way of putting it.

Might be worth bringing up as a question if anyone's planning on attending a Robotech panel at an upcoming con.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hmmm...that's a possibility, since "We are able to release Macross the movie as a product" is a pretty strange way of putting it.

If, by some strange means, Harmony Gold had actually acquired the distribution rights to DYRL, I very much doubt they would keep it quiet. Quite the contrary, in fact. It's odds-on they'd do their level best to cash in on such a notorious title in every way possible, including DVD and Blu-Ray releases, and a veritable marketing blitz at their convention panels. Instead, the only rights that Tommy Yune ever mentions them acquiring are the merchandising rights, which fits perfectly with their behavior, releasing a handful of DYRL merch as Macross collectibles and otherwise just sweeping the whole affair under the rug.

[taksraven]

Hmmm...that's a possibility, since "We are able to release Macross the movie as a product" is a pretty strange way of putting it.

I think he mentioned the "Shadow Force" thing as a product as well. I think its just their BS corporate way of saying things.

Might be worth bringing up as a question if anyone's planning on attending a Robotech panel at an upcoming con.

I think it would be worth it for one of us to stand up at one of these RT panels and declare his or herself to be a die-hard Macross-purist and ask if any of the RT fans are brave enough to try to give you death. (They would be too chickenshiit I know, but it would be funny, esp. if we could get a clip of something like this on Youtube.)

(the worst that may happen would be a pie in the face, possibly)

Taksraven

Edited December 21, 2009 by taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

I think he mentioned the "Shadow Force" thing as a product as well. I think its just their BS corporate way of saying things.

Eh, I doubt it... I think he tried to cover too much in response to that one question and confused himself, or that what he said didn't come out like he intended it. We can confirm that they acquired the rest-of-world merchandising rights for the DYRL movie easily enough, but they've never even alluded to having any rights beyond that in any official statement, nor have they ever announced or even alluded to having the distribution rights during the actual content portion of their panel discussions. After all the noise they made about the AnimEigo release Macross and the ADV dub of same, that they would keep quiet about having the distribution rights to DYRL makes no sense whatsoever.

I think it would be worth it for one of us to stand up at one of these RT panels and declare his or herself to be a die-hard Macross-purist and ask if any of the RT fans are brave enough to try to give you death. (They would be too chickenshiit I know, but it would be funny, esp. if we could get a clip of something like this on Youtube.)

Very tempting... I probably would, though I seldom attend conventions and killed my travel budget altogether until the economy stabilizes a bit.

[VF5SS]

Does anyone know what happened to all those films Celebrity Entertainment had the rights to distribute?

[terry the lone wolf]

Best Film & Video Corp. out of Hicksville, NY distributed Super Space Fortress Macross in the 90's but that company went belly up. All those titles distributed by Celebrity's Just for Kids went to them to be sold uncut in various comic book stores. I heard online that HG was secretly behind Best Film & Video Corp. Is that true?

[Freiflug88]

So...if HG has all the rights they say they do...why don't they release it?

Who would buy that ancient hand-drawn piece of child-porn trash when you can watch the modern RSC with all its hot legally aged babes with Brazilian Korean butt lifts immersed in the best Cinematic CG environment pre-Avatar for free on Hulu...

ehh... I mean

1. They don't have the rights to DYRL

2. Its Macross, Robotech is HG's #1 concern anime wise.

2. American Retail Chains, TV Networks, Hulu, Movie theaters, etc only deal with animated movies that carry a 5.1 sound track in English and HG would never pour money into dubbing Macross DYRL cause:

a) Creating Robotech: DYRL would be a waste of money that would only appeal to the small number of Robotech fans and it would tarnish the credibility of Robotech's "Macross-Less" sequels and reimagining for fans unaware of the legal situation.

b) ADV is out of business and other anime companies are going to be heistant about following their footsteps of dubbing and distrubiting classic anime titles. The fact that Macross DYRL is often cited as the most popeular fansub of all time doesn't help its case either.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Freiflug88

[azrael]

If I'm not mistaken, TOHO and Bandai Visual would have the distribution rights to DYRL?'s animation (TOHO being the primary and BV sub-contracted for home video) in Japan. So any distribution of DYRL? would end up going through TOHO.

[Einherjar]

Knowing how HG works, their claim doesn't matter because they're not American. It's their realm by name association and region, which means everywhere outside of Japan.

I've seen wall scrolls in anime stores with Hikaru's Strike Valkyrie with the Robotech logo. Either people in general are still confused by the differences or HG and Toynami are perpetuating it with stuff like the Stealth Veritech recently. It was inevitable that they would be selling a regular version after the convention special. That's one of the few "new" products they were able to come up with this year.

[Wanzerfan]

Knowing how HG works, their claim doesn't matter because they're not American. It's their realm by name association and region, which means everywhere outside of Japan.

I've seen wall scrolls in anime stores with Hikaru's Strike Valkyrie with the Robotech logo. Either people in general are still confused by the differences or HG and Toynami are perpetuating it with stuff like the Stealth Veritech recently. It was inevitable that they would be selling a regular version after the convention special. That's one of the few "new" products they were able to come up with this year.

What logo are you talking about? If it's the logo up in the left hand side of the forums banner, that logo belongs to Macross through and through.

[Gubaba]

What logo are you talking about? If it's the logo up in the left hand side of the forums banner, that logo belongs to Macross through and through.

I think he meant this logo:

[anime52k8]

I think he meant this logo:

Technically that's a wordmark.

Edited December 21, 2009 by anime52k8

[Ginrai]

Best Film & Video Corp. out of Hicksville, NY distributed Super Space Fortress Macross in the 90's but that company went belly up. All those titles distributed by Celebrity's Just for Kids went to them to be sold uncut in various comic book stores. I heard online that HG was secretly behind Best Film & Video Corp. Is that true?

No. That's ridiculous. If HG owned the rights to DYRL, they wouldn't have released them under some bizarre cheapo front company. This rumour started because Best Film & Video released Streamline's Lensman as well due to some weird rights thing.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Ginrai

[Einherjar]

I think he meant this logo:

Yup, but yellow/gold.

[terry the lone wolf]

So if it's not HG then the culprit is the Toho Company.

I found the list of the anime titles they distributed in Japan and the ones they gave to western companies for the U.S. market. Macross: Do You Remember Love's American distributor was listed as Celebrity and Lensman was Streamline.

Now I know this is just too, too easy but does Toho still retain their distribution for DYRL? It would seem to me that BW, Tatsunoko, & HG need to talk to them to clear up who has distribution rights.

http://www.tohokingdom.com/anime_list.htm

http://www.tohokingdom.com/anime/macross84.htm

Edited December 22, 2009 by terry the lone wolf