HG and Robotech Debates

[EXO]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't strike me as a really good excuse. By that measure, Robotech can just freely cherry pick whatever they like from the Macross line just because "it's the only way it's going to be released" over in the US.

Plaigarizing bits of story design and mecha design concepts is one thing (I actually believe both Macross and Robotech are guilty of doing this off each other), but that looks like a complete ripoff.

I think you're taking it a bit too seriously there. The fact is that back when the comic book was done there wasn't really a fine line of what was Robotech and what was Macross. People that were Robotech fans became Macross fans and saw new designs that weren't in the series. The fine line between wasn't drawn until HG started claiming everything that was Macross as their property and that's when the fans started taking sides. I dont believe that HG ever took part on what the artists and comic book companies put in their pages, or were even interested. And as far as look, I prefer the manga look also, but it's just a subjective opinion to say what is right. Because it's standard practice for American comic books to let the artist interpret the story, so what is going on here isn't straight out plagiarism but an adaptation that an artist was paid to do.

I remember buying the Robotech art books first then getting the Perfect Memory book and then the Gold Book and it took me a long time to care what was Robotech and what was Macross, but as a fan I rabidly bought up what was available to me.

[Seto Kaiba]

The fact is that back when the comic book was done there wasn't really a fine line of what was Robotech and what was Macross.

The line between what was Macross and what was Robotech was drawn clearly enough that Palladium had to, and did, establish what could and could not be used for lineart in the original Robotech RPG.

I dont believe that HG ever took part on what the artists and comic book companies put in their pages, or were even interested. And as far as look, I prefer the manga look also, but it's just a subjective opinion to say what is right. Because it's standard practice for American comic books to let the artist interpret the story, so what is going on here isn't straight out plagiarism but an adaptation that an artist was paid to do.

Well, Harmony Gold's resident spin doctor has gone on record to say that the reason the comics and novels were made non-canon was because they had been made during a period when Harmony Gold exercised little-to-no creative control over the products their licensees were creating, so that much at least can be taken as reasonably accurate. However, in light of the magnitude and frequency of the tracing, not merely from Macross but also from other shows which had nothing to do with Macross or Robotech such as the movie Independence Day, and the fact that at least some of their licensees WERE aware of the distinction and what they should not use, it seems fairly obvious that there was a LOT of blatant, senseless plagiarism on the part of the writers and artists doing the Robotech comics. If they had drawn it themselves, it would be one thing, but almost all of what they did was tracing from artbooks, from screen captures, and from box art. That's not interpretation at that point, that's plagiarism, pure and simple.

[EXO]

The line between what was Macross and what was Robotech was drawn clearly enough that Palladium had to, and did, establish what could and could not be used for lineart in the original Robotech RPG.

Well, Harmony Gold's resident spin doctor has gone on record to say that the reason the comics and novels were made non-canon was because they had been made during a period when Harmony Gold exercised little-to-no creative control over the products their licensees were creating, so that much at least can be taken as reasonably accurate. However, in light of the magnitude and frequency of the tracing, not merely from Macross but also from other shows which had nothing to do with Macross or Robotech such as the movie Independence Day, and the fact that at least some of their licensees WERE aware of the distinction and what they should not use, it seems fairly obvious that there was a LOT of blatant, senseless plagiarism on the part of the writers and artists doing the Robotech comics. If they had drawn it themselves, it would be one thing, but almost all of what they did was tracing from artbooks, from screen captures, and from box art. That's not interpretation at that point, that's plagiarism, pure and simple.

I'm aware of the tracing and how ridiculous that was... but I've never seen Greg Lane trace any artwork. My point of posting here was to speak up for one artist that drew his own stuff and drew it as a fan at a time when there were no harsh distinction on what can and can't be used as far as the comic books.

[Jasonc]

Yeah, Seto and I had discovered this a while ago. The first instance I heard the MS-Sam voice-over was when he used it to 'recite' some comments I'd posted on my site's blog. To be honest, I was fairly complimentary about the guy, but as we can all see, my initial attempt to be civil with the guy turned sour. To his credit, Seto didn't say 'I told you so!' too loudly.

The 900+ listeners has to be a faulty number. AS has been theorized before, his screen-capped statistic could be reflecting search-bots or search-engine hits, but there's absolutely no way in hell that he has that many listeners (excuse me, lessoners). If he did, then JTwould have gotten all sorts of hate-email directed at him, and at last report, there was none.

Now, that means one of two things, both bad for Ol' Dougie-poo. First, it means that his download/listener number is vastly and artificially inflated, or it means that if he DOES have that many listeners, they really don't give him any kind of validity whatsoever. One could even deduce that those listeners are simply 'lessoning' for pure comedic value, much like your common, everyday, garden-variety anime fan (I seem to recall a site populated with fans like that... I think the address is something like 'MarcosGlobe.com, but I could be wrong).

Needless to say, even though he's made himself a laughing stock throught the anime fandom world, and a small but substantial portion of the internet as a whole, he'll still stick to the idea that he's the best of the best out there, as far as RT-fandom goes. And what a sad situation it is.

Doug only uses RT for the inflation of his own ego. He doesn't really care about the show. Allhe does is use it for the expansion of all things DougBendo.

Oh, well. At least we're rid of him here, I hope.

Strangely enough, I wouldn't mind him back here to try and debate. His whole 5 posts amounted to absolutely nothing, and I think the mods had enough of his mindless babble before locking his posting privledges. All I know is that he's a nobody wanting to be somebody in this world, and he probably just needs a hug "Robotech style", with lots of Protoculter seeds and all that fluff. I never tried, or claimed to be anything I wasn't, but apparently he thinks I tried to start a Robotech following, and I've been banned way too many times. Now I see what makes many of you laugh so hard at this garbage. When someone tries to talk about you, you really get to hear just how wrong they are about many things. I just about fell out of my chair laughing when I heard all the things I supposedly do, and all the things I supposedly have done.

Onto other topics like the Sentinel's mecha, I was actually OK with the new Tactical Battle pod. It's not a bad design, if it wasn't a straigh rip from the original. Of course, this was all before the court rulings, and it never did make it to production, but had it gone to production, could BW sued HG if they wanted to? (This hypothetical based on seeing those designs and it making it to the sentinel's episode they're in)

[taksraven]

I think that dougbendo as a regular here would get very annoying too quickly. Unless he started to listen to reason, of course, which is unlikely.

I wonder what else he does "Robotech style"?

Taksraven

Edited December 18, 2009 by taksraven

[taksraven]

Oh boy, did the factory satelight screw up on this one

I still can't figure out how this thing goes from guardian to battloid (or whatever the Robotech people call the configuration).

And then... there's THIS

Where did you get the Robotech Art 3 scans dude??

(I'm specifically after the text from that book)

Taksraven

[anime52k8]

Where did you get the Robotech Art 3 scans dude??

(I'm specifically after the text from that book)

Taksraven

check out macrosshare.com

http://www.macrosshare.com/2007/10/books-robotech-art-3.html

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm aware of the tracing and how ridiculous that was... but I've never seen Greg Lane trace any artwork. My point of posting here was to speak up for one artist that drew his own stuff and drew it as a fan at a time when there were no harsh distinction on what can and can't be used as far as the comic books.

Okay, so you're citing an exception that tests the rule... that's cool. Doesn't really change the fact that the vast majority of Robotech comics did indulge in blatant and occasionally nonsensical plagiarism... even engaging in some cross-genre theft of characters and stories, with appropriately bizarre results.

Onto other topics like the Sentinel's mecha, I was actually OK with the new Tactical Battle pod. It's not a bad design, if it wasn't a straigh rip from the original. Of course, this was all before the court rulings, and it never did make it to production, but had it gone to production, could BW sued HG if they wanted to? (This hypothetical based on seeing those designs and it making it to the sentinel's episode they're in)

Um... the "Tactical Battle Pod" DID make it into what little of the intended series was actually animated. It appears in the first five minutes of the "Sentinels movie", during the simulator scene. A bunch of 'em pop out of the undefined body of water that "Rick Hunter" crashes in, and waste rookie Jack Baker, ending the simulation at about four minutes in. Whether the "tactical battle pod" is legally actionable or not is kind of sketchy. It's clearly based on general design elements from the Regult and Glaug, yet it's so stylistically different that in my opinion it'd be next to impossible to build a successful case that it was copyright-infringing material. Just like the character designs, it's different enough from the originals while remaining at least vaguely recognizable that it would probably be in the clear.

I wonder what else he does "Robotech style"?

To date, I'm still not certain what "Robotech style" could possibly mean... aside from "turn your brain off and act like a complete twat".

[Funkenstein]

They made a mecha out of a search-light? That defeats the purpose of giant robots.

[Gubaba]

They made a mecha out of a search-light? That defeats the purpose of giant robots.

It was probably specifically designed for Minmei, so it could ALWAYS be her time to be a star!

[Seto Kaiba]

It was probably specifically designed for Minmei, so it could ALWAYS be her time to be a star!

The sad part is, when you factor in the EotC stable time loop... this is actually possible.

[RedWolf]

The sad part is, when you factor in the EotC stable time loop... this is actually possible.

Stable time loops and the Circle.

Now you are giving an idea for a SDC Southern Cross x Babylon 5 crossover tribble.

Since Babylon 5 is set in the same system as Glorie.

[hulagu]

Stable time loops and the Circle.

Now you are giving an idea for a SDC Southern Cross x Babylon 5 crossover tribble.

Since Babylon 5 is set in the same system as Glorie.

LOL. Will Admiral Rick Hunter shame the Invid and Shadows in front of all the other races in the climatic battle, give them a thorough scolding and tell them to "Get the hell out of our galaxy?".

Edited December 18, 2009 by hulagu

[RedWolf]

LOL. Will Admiral Rick Hunter shame the Invid and Shadows in front of all the other races in the climatic battle, give them a thorough scolding and tell them to "Get the hell out of our galaxy?".

I meant Glorie as in context of the Super Dimension Calvary Southern Cross. Epsilon Eridani system and the Proxima system are both occupied by humans.

In Glorie's case it was the homeworld of the Zor. In Babylon 5's case it is where the Great Machine and Babylon 5 is situated.

I'll just post this tribble at Space Battles.

[chrisk]

Off-topic, but I lol'ed my @ss of the "Shadow Rising Production Thread":

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...p;pagenumber=15

Spread the Christmas Cheer!

[terry the lone wolf]

I wonder if HG would've took a more active role with Palladium in the creation of the RPGs would there still be tracing of established Macross art. Or was the Macross art too good to pass up? Didn't HG receive line art designs from Tatsunoko?

[Marzan]

Off-topic, but I lol'ed my @ss of the "Shadow Rising Production Thread":

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...p;pagenumber=15

Spread the Christmas Cheer!

Seem's like there's trouble in paradise...

[VF5SS]

Yellow and Alto are completely different character archetypes. Yellow is part of the "lanky, suave pretty boy" subset like Hayato from Getter Robo and all those skinny guys from stuff like Combattler, Voltes, etc. And if you really want to get nitpicky, Yellow's entire romance subplot with Sorji is just ripped straight out of Max and Millia's romance.

Besides Alto is a man's name and he's a man.

[Einherjar]

LOL! That's because the artist/writer is a Macross fan and a long time Macrossworld member and that's the only way he's ever going to get to release a Macross comic book in the US.

Destroy All Podcasts did a review for the comic book, but they also mentioned that they were going to have an episode interviewing that guy sometime.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Einherjar

[MastaEgg]

I think you're taking it a bit too seriously there. The fact is that back when the comic book was done there wasn't really a fine line of what was Robotech and what was Macross. People that were Robotech fans became Macross fans and saw new designs that weren't in the series. The fine line between wasn't drawn until HG started claiming everything that was Macross as their property and that's when the fans started taking sides. I dont believe that HG ever took part on what the artists and comic book companies put in their pages, or were even interested. And as far as look, I prefer the manga look also, but it's just a subjective opinion to say what is right. Because it's standard practice for American comic books to let the artist interpret the story, so what is going on here isn't straight out plagiarism but an adaptation that an artist was paid to do.

I remember buying the Robotech art books first then getting the Perfect Memory book and then the Gold Book and it took me a long time to care what was Robotech and what was Macross, but as a fan I rabidly bought up what was available to me.

So there was a time when Macross and Robotech fans held hands in harmonious joy and complemented each other work? That's scary.

[Jasonc]

I think that dougbendo as a regular here would get very annoying too quickly. Unless he started to listen to reason, of course, which is unlikely.

I wonder what else he does "Robotech style"?

Taksraven

Yeah, I should've added that in as well. While it would be nice to argue more, the fact that he brings nothing with him is a waste of time. That argument does outweigh my argument.

Oh, and Seto, I forgot about that segment. I guess BW would have a decent case if the show was made today, but back then, it was different.

Off-topic, but I lol'ed my @ss of the "Shadow Rising Production Thread":

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...p;pagenumber=15

Spread the Christmas Cheer!

Very interesting, indeed. That thread really proves a few things. 1) HG and the mods have been on a defensive standpoint for so long, they can't even answer a simple question without wasting two pages on rationalizing why they shouldn't and talking about NDAs. I think all that started out with one guy asking about footage that was shown at some convention. Then it was only after like 2 pages of stuff unrelated that the question got answered. Still, the mods have taken a defensive position and still persists to prove some point that isn't necessary.

2) It shows that the mods really do have their own agenda. While I didn't spend my time reading through every post, Memo kept plugging away at JT/Zen 72. I'm curious as to how JT belongs in their thesis of how NDAs work? Tommy, Steve, and Kevin have really let their fandom go, that's for sure. They've left it to the mods to destroy the rest. It seems like the only Robotech fans who have been unscathed so far are the fans who don't care enough about the franchise. They've been able to avoid all the drama. Thanks Chrisk for the link.

[Ginrai]

Hey guys, before you get all jerky "OMG HG IS EVIL" on Covert Ops having DYRL designs in it, let's remember that the creator of Covert Ops is a member of Macross World.

[taksraven]

Hey guys, before you get all jerky "OMG HG IS EVIL" on Covert Ops having DYRL designs in it, let's remember that the creator of Covert Ops is a member of Macross World.

Is this member ever going to be outed/identified or is there a cone of silence over this? Would be nice to hear the members viewpoint if we havent already.

Taksraven

[taksraven]

check out macrosshare.com

http://www.macrosshare.com/2007/10/books-robotech-art-3.html

Thanks a lot for that.

Honestly, I think its time for Robotech Art 4, where they can detail all of their stuff-ups (and what they consider to be successes) between the late 80's and the present day. Imagine, they could have a whole chapter detailing how they were "asleep at the wheel" when Macross II and Plus were released in the west.

AND ALL THE TEXT COULD BE DONE BY MEMO IN HIS FANTASTIC STYLE!!!

I doubt that they would have the guts to be so introspective now.

Taksraven

[Seto Kaiba]

I wonder if HG would've took a more active role with Palladium in the creation of the RPGs would there still be tracing of established Macross art. Or was the Macross art too good to pass up? Didn't HG receive line art designs from Tatsunoko?

Well, if the "2nd Edition" RPG is any real indication, the answer to that question is "no". It seems like once Harmony Gold actually started paying attention to what their licensees were doing, their licensees started actually drawing their own art.

Besides Alto is a man's name and he's a man.

*starts in with the first verse of "Dude looks like a Lady"*

So there was a time when Macross and Robotech fans held hands in harmonious joy and complemented each other work? That's scary.

I'm not convinced those heady days weren't just a hallucination brought about by overindulging in the "flowers of life".

Very interesting, indeed. That thread really proves a few things. 1) HG and the mods have been on a defensive standpoint for so long, they can't even answer a simple question without wasting two pages on rationalizing why they shouldn't and talking about NDAs. I think all that started out with one guy asking about footage that was shown at some convention. Then it was only after like 2 pages of stuff unrelated that the question got answered. Still, the mods have taken a defensive position and still persists to prove some point that isn't necessary.

Drama's the only way they can keep the attention of the remaining fans. They've got no new products coming out in the foreseeable future, no continuation of Shadow Chronicles, the live-action movie's a distant "maybe" on the horizon, and the Masterpiece Collection is stalled due to that recall of the Maia Sterling VF/A-6ZX, so about the best they can do to make it look like exciting things are happening is to throw a bloody hissy fit whenever someone questions that the LAM or Shadow Rising is being worked on in hopes that a sufficient show of outrage will present the illusion of "We've got so much awesome stuff and we're totally pissed off that we can't show it to you, so stop getting on our asses about it".

Hey guys, before you get all jerky "OMG HG IS EVIL" on Covert Ops having DYRL designs in it, let's remember that the creator of Covert Ops is a member of Macross World.

We're not bagging on him specifically, we're largely criticizing the tendency that MOST Robotech comics had to trace whatever they could from Macross artbooks instead of drawing their own material.

Honestly, I think its time for Robotech Art 4, where they can detail all of their stuff-ups (and what they consider to be successes) between the late 80's and the present day. Imagine, they could have a whole chapter detailing how they were "asleep at the wheel" when Macross II and Plus were released in the west.

Kinda sorta already done... it's called The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles. In the foreword (written by no less a nutjob than Carl Macek), they attempt to spin their involvement in all of the various Robotech failures as them being victims of circumstance, with the sole exception of Robotech 3000, where Carl Macek ALMOST actually acknowledges the show went under because Harmony Gold didn't have a farting clue what the fans wanted... but he also lumps a lot of blame on Netter Digital. I think they were genuinely trying to distract people from actually reading the foreword though, since all the actual text is crammed into the bottom third of each page, and top two-thirds is full of screen captures and MPC boxart done by Tommy Yune. The book is mysteriously mute on the subject of Macross II and Macross Plus though.

I gathered that the book wasn't exactly a big seller... it didn't even sell out on Robotech.com, and the few bookstores to carry it still seem to have most of their stock collecting dust in a warehouse somewhere. Even old-time Robotech fans seemed thoroughly dissatisfied by it, as I was able to obtain a copy in pristine condition (opened once, then thrown aside in disgust by its original owner) for a dollar at a local garage sale... and let me tell you I genuinely think I overpaid by at least $0.75. I thought it was kind of amusing that almost all of the actual information was reprinted (unedited) directly out of the Infopedia, and while Tommy and Carl are the only names on the cover, the back of the book lists a fair half-dozen others who did most of the actual writing.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Robelwell202]

If I may be so bold as to say so, this NDA thing screams to me of PANIC on the hearts and minds of HG...

They've been doing the same "There's developments (but we can't say anything)..." in regards to 'Shadow Rising' for a long time before the LAM agreement with Warner was ever announced. I'm sure an internal production like RT:SR wouldn't be bound up in needless red-tape like an NDA.

I think the pressure's getting to them, and our good buddies Mav and MEMO are feeling it the most.

[Ginrai]

Is this member ever going to be outed/identified or is there a cone of silence over this? Would be nice to hear the members viewpoint if we havent already.

It's not a secret. glane21. He's got a thread for his comic art: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...c=14124&hl=

[veffidas]

You know, >EXO< already handled this before the two of you got into it.

LOL! That's because the artist/writer is a Macross fan and a long time Macrossworld member and that's the only way he's ever going to get to release a Macross comic book in the US.

I'm aware of the tracing and how ridiculous that was... but I've never seen Greg Lane trace any artwork. My point of posting here was to speak up for one artist that drew his own stuff and drew it as a fan at a time when there were no harsh distinction on what can and can't be used as far as the comic books.

[Ginrai]

Well, Exo didn't say anything about him being an MW member.

[veffidas]

Well, Exo didn't say anything about him being an MW member.

Check the first quoted post.

[Ginrai]

Check the first quoted post.

I stand corrected. I guess I was just looking for glane21. At any rate.

[Einherjar]

I don't blame glane21 for the comic book, it was really just a job he was commissioned to do at one time.

[Ginrai]

I don't blame glane21 for the comic book, it was really just a job he was commissioned to do at one time.

Blame? It was a cool comic.

[Einherjar]

Blame? It was a cool comic.

I know, I meant any kind of negative stigma that could come out of it, as people here have been moving towards.

[HappyPenguins]

Off-topic, but I lol'ed my @ss of the "Shadow Rising Production Thread":

http://www.robotech.com/community/forum/re...p;pagenumber=15

Spread the Christmas Cheer!

meh same poop different toilet

reading MEMO's posts gives me a headache