HG and Robotech Debates

[Seto Kaiba]

A better quality toy was supposed to be sold sometime in 2009, but not much has happened with it.

According to relatively recent Robotech convention panels, the Maia Sterling VF/A-6ZX Shadow Fighter MPC is going to be re-released probably early next year, though in a startling case of faulty pattern recognition, it will be produced in the same factory that dropped the ball the first time.

Oddly enough, the only thing that I find really "interesting" about Robotech is the extent to which it's so messed up. I kind of sit there wondering - what will they screw up next?

That's anybody's guess... they're running out of things to screw up.

Enter the Robotech fan.

Does he help us understand Robotech better? No. Elucidate the novels in a way we're not grasping? No. NOTICE that we've actually been attempting to discuss the merits and demerits of the novels? No.

Instead he whines about how he's being mistreated even though nobody's done anything to him, then asks why the SDF-1 is 1200 meters long, then goes away.

To be honest, if you go take a good, long look at the current state of affairs on Robotech.com, you'll see that this sort of behavior is pretty much par for the course. The sad part is that it's been that way for years.

On more than one occasion, I've been sorely tempted to point psychology majors towards the Robotech fanbase as a classic example of a large-scale persecution complex. Even before the fandom went online in the 90's, Robotech fans had developed an unpleasant habit of lashing out at anyone who didn't like same parts of Robotech that they did, and then proclaiming themselves to be the victims of an elitist clique hell-bent on stopping them from enjoying those parts of the series, as though that somehow justified their crass, and often asinine, behavior. It wasn't just the non-fans who were targets of this, this is what ultimately caused the various fan wars that led to the purist faction of the fanbase (the fans of the "original 85") ostracizing the fans of the novels (McKinneyists) and the comics (Spenglerists).

As far as the whole "questioning the official answer" thing goes, that's really the only sort of discussion they have left. In the absence of new material, all they can really do is continually rehash the same tired old topics ad nauseam and question the official stance on parts of the series whenever it clashes with what they personally want to believe. Just to give some examples, there's a ~300 post thread in Series & Stories over there trying to concoct an explanation for the SDF-2 problem (where it was) despite the presence of an official FAQ that completely answers the question in less than 200 words. You could also see the VF-1 vs Alpha thread in Hardcore Robotechnology, where one member continues to bang his head on the wall insisting that his particular application of moon logic to the footage proves that the official tech specs are wrong and the Alpha (Legioss) can reach orbit unassisted.

[Wanzerfan]

According to relatively recent Robotech convention panels, the Maia Sterling VF/A-6ZX Shadow Fighter MPC is going to be re-released probably early next year, though in a startling case of faulty pattern recognition, it will be produced in the same factory that dropped the ball the first time.

That's anybody's guess... they're running out of things to screw up.

To be honest, if you go take a good, long look at the current state of affairs on Robotech.com, you'll see that this sort of behavior is pretty much par for the course. The sad part is that it's been that way for years.

On more than one occasion, I've been sorely tempted to point psychology majors towards the Robotech fanbase as a classic example of a large-scale persecution complex. Even before the fandom went online in the 90's, Robotech fans had developed an unpleasant habit of lashing out at anyone who didn't like same parts of Robotech that they did, and then proclaiming themselves to be the victims of an elitist clique hell-bent on stopping them from enjoying those parts of the series, as though that somehow justified their crass, and often asinine, behavior. It wasn't just the non-fans who were targets of this, this is what ultimately caused the various fan wars that led to the purist faction of the fanbase (the fans of the "original 85") ostracizing the fans of the novels (McKinneyists) and the comics (1) (Spenglerists).

As far as the whole "questioning the official answer" thing goes, that's really the only sort of discussion they have left. In the absence of new material, all they can really do is continually rehash the same tired old topics ad nauseam and question the official stance on parts of the series whenever it clashes with what they personally want to believe. Just to give some examples, there's a ~300 post thread in Series & Stories over there trying to concoct an explanation for the SDF-2 problem (where it was) despite the presence of an official FAQ that completely answers the question in less than 200 words. You could also see the VF-1 vs Alpha thread in Hardcore Robotechnology, (2) where one member continues to bang his head on the wall insisting that his particular application of moon logic to the footage proves that the official tech specs are wrong and the Alpha (Legioss) can reach orbit unassisted.

(1) I consider myself a Spanglerist, The Malcontent Uprisings happens to be some of his finest work, especially issue #7, what I lovingly call the Breetai solo story.

(2) What kind of horseshit is that? The sole reason why they devoped the Tread/Beta is to have a sort of fast pack that can transform to back up the Alpha/Legios.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[Gubaba]

(1) I consider myself a Spanglerist, The Malcontent Uprisings happens to be some of his finest work, especially issue #7, what I lovingly call the Breetai solo story.

So, in continuing with our theme of picking the brains of Robotech fans...what do the comics bring to the table for you? Just calling it as I see it, with no value judgment or offense intended, you DO seem like more of a Robotech fan than a Macross fan (at least, anyone who hasn't seen SDFM or Macross Frontier, hates Macross 7 and Plus, and never mentions DYRL, II, or Zero doesn't seem terribly passionate about Macross). So what it is about the Robotech comics that make them surpass Macross for you?

[Seto Kaiba]

(1) I consider myself a Spanglerist, The Malcontent Uprisings happens to be some of his finest work, especially issue #7, what I lovingly call the Breetai solo story.

Despite the downright abysmal quality of the art and writing in most of the old Robotech comics, they're probably the Robotech medium most deserving of respect... if only because they contain the most original material of any of the various Robotech adaptations and continuations. Of course, even though the Robotech comics are far and away the medium with the most original material, they still contain a lot less original material than the comics/manga of any respectable, well-run franchise, since flagrant tracing and outright theft of characters, mecha, and even whole plots from other, more successful anime and sci-fi shows seems to have been standard practice for all of the publishers of the old Robotech comics.

(2) What kind of horseshit is that? The sole reason why they developed the Tread/Beta is to have a sort of fast pack that can transform to back up the Alpha/Legios.

Well, strictly speaking the TREAD/Beta was created for the express purpose of extending the Legioss/Alpha's range in space and giving it the ability to reach orbit from the planetary surface. The guys claiming otherwise are pretty much throwing a temper tantrum because the powers that be haven't figured out a way to fix the fact that Robotech's technological continuity seems to evolve backwards, with more advanced mecha at the beginning, steadily becoming more and more primitive, blocky, and slow.

Seems kind of like the degeneration of human technology in Warhammer 40,000... in the grim darkness of the not-so-far future there is only protoculture?

Just calling it as I see it, with no value judgment or offense intended, you DO seem like more of a Robotech fan than a Macross fan

No matter how many times I tell you, you never seem terribly convinced that Wanzerfan is in fact a Macross fan. He was one of the very first contributors to my site project back in 2003 when we were first getting started.

[Einherjar]

(1) I consider myself a Spanglerist, The Malcontent Uprisings happens to be some of his finest work, especially issue #7, what I lovingly call the Breetai solo story.

Wow, I thought Spanglerist was just a made up word. People in the fandom actually use that.

http://rdfpodcast.com/node/773

[Protoculture]

Since I am able to enjoy both Macross & Robotech without any residual hangups, perhaps I could share my perspective as a Robotech fan.

Why do I like about Robotech? It actually brings back my love to the original series of SDFM Macross & GC Mospeada (which I watched in mid 1980s before RT was aired in early 1990s in my country). Apart from that, RT encouraged me to actually learn English (it ain't my native language) in my teenage years as I begun collecting RT novels in intervening years.

RT represents tp me what I would termed serious sci-fi, especially in an animation, as compared to kiddified Western animation & sissified animes that were available at the time in my country. I myself drawn to RT because its far more 'matured' / 'adult' themed & storyline, as per generational periods of its three arcs. Not that RT actually can be compared to Starwars or Star Trek, but as a sci-fi entity, it does held its ground.

Even if I limited myself to the 85 eps of RT (hardcore RT Purist), I can still expected to explore the RT-verse (yeah, despite plotholes & such) either in terms of tech evolution, socio-politico implications, character motivations etc.

Even the McKinney RT novelizations nicely filled out the blanks that the original 85 eps didn't cover, though the Sentinel series is practically went downhill for me.

The early & mid years of Internet RT fandom pre RT.com caused new influx of RT fans eager to share, argue & debate about every aspects of RT they represented either the hardcore Purists (who relied on 85 RT eps + OSM), the vocal McKinniyist (who insisted novelisation as canon as the original animation), the RPGers (who're most never watched RT but actually enjoyed exploring RT-verse in their RPG gaming), Universalist (who can enjoy RT in equal measure) & the majority of casual (more probably ignorant) RT fans.

Of course RT has it flaws, that was obvious from the hack-job it made of, but its storyline that humanity had to fight multi-generational galactic war @ their doorstep for a unique power source kinda jived a logical sense to me than say ..... a franchise that begin with a bang with solid storyline & a good movie adaptation but having an intergalactic war stopped by a little human idol .... veered towards a mediocre imitation of the same movie adaptation but somewhat entertaining, then ditched in favor of a cleverly disguised Top-Gun inspired movie cloaked with transforming mecha, then ventured to a narcissitic tree-hugging guitar playing hubbub piloting vs space vampies, to a prequel that obviously tree-hugging & made some rocks floated, but redeemed itself with obvious ogling of new generation post-loli idols & ex-kabuki actor angst.

Actually, I do prefer RT storyline as compared to Macross.

But unlike Macross, RT do not progressed beyond its original 85 eps with that RTSC, & that is a severe hamper to those like me who enjoy RT for its story progression.

As for Macross, I watched & enjoyed original SDFM & DYRL to the fullest, & fulfilled with Flashback 2012, mere satisfied with Mac II, but enjoyed Mac Plus more. But recent Mac incarnation like Mac 7 & Mac F, I kinda watching it only to satisfy my juvenile longing without any high expectations at all. As for Zero ... I watched that because Focker was in it.

Atleast, Macross franchise progressed forward, despite hits & misses. Macross franchise catered to new generation of fans from 1980s, 1990s & now early 2000s, something that RT franchise have not being able to do except re-introducing recycled RT animation to new market & garnered legions of new fans in China. But again, RT is limited to original 85 eps & RTSC .... that's it.

Rebooted RT .... I don't put too much hope into that. Fat chance in hell apart from retconning the official canon timeline. Not that I have a dim view of RT future, but strictly speaking, I kinda see future RT animation will be in the vein of Mospeada II. Not that I'd complain (as I'll be getting my Mospeada fix), but atleast RT do not need to stand on Macross anymore. I applaud Yune to actually retcon future RT projects bereft of Macross elements like RTSC, & that is a good thing eventhough the result is less than stellar.

[Protoculture]

Just calling it as I see it, with no value judgment or offense intended, you DO seem like more of a Robotech fan than a Macross fan

What's wrong with that?

Over time, RT fans will veered towards Macross & conversion process is imminent. We of all people knew that. In fact, majority of MWers started their Macross journey as a Robotech fan & on their way discovered the pure, undiluted version of the real thing.

Only a few lucky ones that started off their Macross journey with SDFM route (like me) without having to suffer the 'hack-job' firsthand.

[Gubaba]

What's wrong with that?

There's nothing wrong with it...but I just figured that it was better to come out and SAY that no offense was intended rather than leave it vague. Especially since I before accused Wanzerfan of being a troll deliberately spreading misinformation, and I was probably wrong about that, so I wanted to make it clear I wasn't calling him out or anything.

[Einherjar]

Rebooted RT .... I don't put too much hope into that. Fat chance in hell apart from retconning the official canon timeline. Not that I have a dim view of RT future, but strictly speaking, I kinda see future RT animation will be in the vein of Mospeada II. Not that I'd complain (as I'll be getting my Mospeada fix), but atleast RT do not need to stand on Macross anymore. I applaud Yune to actually retcon future RT projects bereft of Macross elements like RTSC, & that is a good thing eventhough the result is less than stellar.

I don't think they're going to be shifting away from Macross in the near future. Isn't one of the selling points for the live action movie that it's going to be as loosely based on the Macross Saga as possible? And Tommy Yune isn't leading that production, people who knew very little about the legalities surrounding it are. He's forced to wait around while someone else tries to give Robotech another new coat of paint.

[azrael]

I don't think they're going to be shifting away from Macross in the near future. Isn't one of the selling points for the live action movie that it's going to be as loosely based on the Macross Saga as possible? And Tommy Yune isn't leading that production, people who knew very little about the legalities surrounding it are. He's forced to wait around while someone else tries to give Robotech another new coat of paint.

Essentially, they want to retell the entire RT saga, starting with the Macross Saga. And while HG isn't in charge creatively, they do have some say in what goes on. Otherwise, it would appear that they have no control over the property which would put them in a pickle.

[HappyPenguins]

The ones who like Robotech do!

Damn I've been caught...

What's wrong with that?

Over time, RT fans will veered towards Macross & conversion process is imminent. We of all people knew that. In fact, majority of MWers started their Macross journey as a Robotech fan & on their way discovered the pure, undiluted version of the real thing.

Only a few lucky ones that started off their Macross journey with SDFM route (like me) without having to suffer the 'hack-job' firsthand.

True, some RT fans do fall for macross instead, or I should say "most". I haven't yet, though I can say I'm interested and have watched some of it in the past. But what I did instead was create my own story and universe. I got tired of waiting for RT to put out something new and original that wasn't half assed or cheap. And well HG isn't going to provide the goods so I found myself thinking, "If you want something done, you've got to do it yourself". And that's exactly what I did, I created my own little world, that can stand on its own and fit into the robotech universe as a future sequel.

Not all fans are as dumb as HG thinks, and not all of them are going to accept the crap they put out. What I did, was create my own entertainment because HG failed to impress me with TSC.

It's just too bad that a lot of the fans have been so starved for something new in the RT universe, that they actually delude themselves into believing TSC is great but only because its got the Robotech name.

But when you think about it, it's a good thing isn't it? Those fans leave the RT community and the macross fan base grows.

I should also thank HG for making TSC such a failure or I would have never gotten so involved with my project.

So despite all this crap , a lot of positive-ness has come out of it

when you really think about it of course.

Edited October 28, 2009 by HappyPenguins

[Einherjar]

Essentially, they want to retell the entire RT saga, starting with the Macross Saga. And while HG isn't in charge creatively, they do have some say in what goes on. Otherwise, it would appear that they have no control over the property which would put them in a pickle.

I thought the news that WB wanted HG to stop all current Robotech work in progress so it doesn't interfere with the LAMR was a sign that they did lose control of their property. I don't know if that was true, can someone fact check that?

Edited October 28, 2009 by Einherjar

[Gubaba]

I thought the news that WB wanted HG to stop all current Robotech work in progress so it doesn't interfere with the LAMR was a sign that they did lose control of their property. I don't know if that was true, can someone fact check that?

Fact checking seems to be difficult to do in this situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

First, Kevin KcKeever says Shadow Rising is "on hiatus" because of the RLAM.

Then, after an outcry, Kevin McKeever explains that "on hiatus" is an industry term, and production on Shadow Rising has not been halted or slowed down, and it all has nothing to do with the RLAM.

Then, HG announces that Shadow Rising is on hold because of the RLAM.

Is that right?

[Seto Kaiba]

Not that I'd complain (as I'll be getting my Mospeada fix), but atleast RT do not need to stand on Macross anymore. I applaud Yune to actually retcon future RT projects bereft of Macross elements like RTSC, & that is a good thing eventhough the result is less than stellar.

To say that Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles stands independent of Macross is probably reaching more than a little bit... after all, one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) selling points of the Prelude comic and the movie itself was the return of the Macross Saga characters who'd left Earth on the Sentinels mission. Hell, "learn the fate of Rick Hunter" was easily the most common part of the pre-release hype. Yes, his appearance was changed such that he's Rick Hunter in name only, but he's still Rick Hunter. Prelude certainly didn't stand independent of Macross... not with Rick Hunter, Lisa Hayes, Breetai, Exedore, and Dr. Lang all figuring prominently into the story.

There's no denying that Shadow Chronicles relies rather heavily on the one major Macross tie-in to sell itself, and that the remainder of the trilogy (as planned) is also driven mainly by Macross tie-ins.

I don't think they're going to be shifting away from Macross in the near future. Isn't one of the selling points for the live action movie that it's going to be as loosely based on the Macross Saga as possible? And Tommy Yune isn't leading that production, people who knew very little about the legalities surrounding it are. He's forced to wait around while someone else tries to give Robotech another new coat of paint.

As much as they can legally get away with, yeah. Of course, the primary selling point of the Shadow Saga is, as I illustrated above, also Macross.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

First, Kevin KcKeever says Shadow Rising is "on hiatus" because of the RLAM.

Then, after an outcry, Kevin McKeever explains that "on hiatus" is an industry term, and production on Shadow Rising has not been halted or slowed down, and it all has nothing to do with the RLAM.

Then, HG announces that Shadow Rising is on hold because of the RLAM.

Actually, it was a voice actor (the guy who voices Vince Grant) who leaked that the Shadow Rising movie was on hold as far as he knew, and that none of the actors had, as far as he was aware, been called in to do any recording.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Freiflug88]

Actually, it was a voice actor (the guy who voices Vince Grant) who leaked that the Shadow Rising movie was on hold as far as he knew, and that none of the actors had, as far as he was aware, been called in to do any recording.

Yeah, it was Richard Epcar. I was volunteering for Anime/Manga at Dragon Con 09 and after the "Ghost in the Shell: Q&A with Ricard Epcar" Panel a fellow staffer, and huge RT fan, asked Richard Epcar about Shadow Rising and the status of the Robotech LAM. According to Richard he was signed on to play Vince Grant for three Robotech Shadow Movies and was actually scheduled to come in to record for Shadow Rising in like a week or so when he received a call from his agent that Tobey Maqurie acquired the movie rights to Robotech and that all production on Shadow Rising has been put on indefinite hold. He added that all of this went down shortly after Transformers became a box office hit which isn't a surprise at all, and of course that no other VAs that he knows of has been called for any recordings so its pretty clear their has been no progress on Shadow Rising if they aren't bringing in any VAs.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Freiflug88

[Protoculture]

I don't think they're going to be shifting away from Macross in the near future. Isn't one of the selling points for the live action movie that it's going to be as loosely based on the Macross Saga as possible? And Tommy Yune isn't leading that production, people who knew very little about the legalities surrounding it are. He's forced to wait around while someone else tries to give Robotech another new coat of paint.

But will RTLAM be a new Macross? BW hold all the aces in regards to original SDFM designs. My bet, if RTLAM ever get made, it'd have very, very little of Macross aesthetics. Kinda like how GC Mospeada took SDFM Valkyrie inspirations for its Legios.

Sure we gonna have a transforming fighters but no VF-1 clones, instead in high probability would be some stealth inspired new fighter designs. There will be no Hikaru Ichijo or Misa or any SDFM casts apart from the Robotech ones that ultimately will be posed by some Hollywood actors.

Robotech's new coat of pain? Why not? If it served the purpose of distancing RT franchise from Macross, that is sure to be good news for Macross in general.

[Protoculture]

To say that Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles stands independent of Macross is probably reaching more than a little bit... after all, one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) selling points of the Prelude comic and the movie itself was the return of the Macross Saga characters who'd left Earth on the Sentinels mission. Hell, "learn the fate of Rick Hunter" was easily the most common part of the pre-release hype. Yes, his appearance was changed such that he's Rick Hunter in name only, but he's still Rick Hunter. Prelude certainly didn't stand independent of Macross... not with Rick Hunter, Lisa Hayes, Breetai, Exedore, and Dr. Lang all figuring prominently into the story.

Yeah, the 'Rick Hunter' factor. Prelude runs on nostalgia, & quickly killed off any characters that has sentimental or nostalgic value like Lang, Breetai, Exedore ... making others conveniently disappear like Lisa, Max & Miriya. Prelude served its purpose to disengaged Macross sentimentalities while moving to a new incarnation of Mospeada ... uhh RTSC.

RTSC killed off the term Zentraedi from RT vocabulary there on. Not to mention, a certain convenient of making sure protoculture supplies running dry in that movie as its main storyline & retconning the new official RT RPG: Macross by making VF-1 / Destroids (Macross Saga) & 2nd generation Veritechs / Battloids (Southern Cross) no longer running on protoculture but now running on SLMH (hydrogen fuel) kinda feel like somebody trying to change Macross aesthetics to Mospeada-ised RT in the long run.

[Protoculture]

There's no denying that Shadow Chronicles relies rather heavily on the one major Macross tie-in to sell itself, and that the remainder of the trilogy (as planned) is also driven mainly by Macross tie-ins.

That would be Rick Hunter. In order to rope in the existing fanbase (unfortunately shrinking) who're familiar with the classic Robotech, its a given.

But in regards of Yune ultimate objective (or his sinister planning) of making sure Macross aesthetics get buried for good in future RT animated sequels, that is laudable. Whether RTSC is a steaming pile of garbage or someone's else liking, it did pretty good job in de-Macross-ised any Macross elements.

The only thing if rebooted RT still relies on Macross elements would be shoe-horning Macross sequels into RT, which is HIGHLY IMPOSSIBLE.

[Protoculture]

True, some RT fans do fall for macross instead, or I should say "most". I haven't yet, though I can say I'm interested and have watched some of it in the past.

You should explore Macross-verse. SDFM would be a good start, plus with Macross DYRL. However, from my experience, most RT fans will automatically jived with Macross II, either because Silvie Gena reminded them of matured Dana Sterling or the red Gilgamesh mecha should replaced the red Bioroid ........

But what I did instead was create my own story and universe. I got tired of waiting for RT to put out something new and original that wasn't half assed or cheap. And well HG isn't going to provide the goods so I found myself thinking, "If you want something done, you've got to do it yourself". And that's exactly what I did, I created my own little world, that can stand on its own and fit into the robotech universe as a future sequel.

Some RT fans do. In fact, due to lack RT materials, I embarked to write historical fan essays on fictional history of Robotech specific to RT RPG'ers on Palladium Board.

That kind of forward-going attitude from various dedicated RT enthusiasts sparked uRRG, RT Research & even infamous Dave Dietrich's Steelfalcon site that catered to both RT & Mac crowds.

Not all fans are as dumb as HG thinks, and not all of them are going to accept the crap they put out. What I did, was create my own entertainment because HG failed to impress me with TSC.

uRRG started as a way to be closer to OSM with little input from HG. RT Research started as a way to expand the classic RT RPG.

It's just too bad that a lot of the fans have been so starved for something new in the RT universe, that they actually delude themselves into believing TSC is great but only because its got the Robotech name.

You've to understand that RTSC is the only viable new RT animation & true sequel to RT-verse after RT II: Sentinels was removed from main continuity.

I don't want to praise RTSC because it is actually a retcon of EoTC (by McKinney), but to me it isn't great, but mediocre. Just like I treat any B-movies in the market. It does served its purpose as RT sequel.

But when you think about it, it's a good thing isn't it? Those fans leave the RT community and the macross fan base grows.

Well, the moment RT fans started to discover the original Macross, their days of being ignorant RT fans & eventual conversion into Macrossies will begin in earnest. Once they become Macrossies, they will become required anti HG & anti RT vitriolics zombies. After that mellowed down, they will choose sides between the glorious Nekki Basara of Mac 7 or the tepid camp of Hibiki Kanzaki of Mac II in everlasting feud. But both camps will be going WTF over Zero & rejoiced over Frontier.

[taksraven]

Essentially, they want to retell the entire RT saga, starting with the Macross Saga. And while HG isn't in charge creatively, they do have some say in what goes on. Otherwise, it would appear that they have no control over the property which would put them in a pickle.

As I've speculated out loud before, I would not be surprised if WB has no real ideas about the possible legal entanglements that could come about with the LAM. They are probably just dazzled about the possibility of having their own transforming robots franchise.

Taksraven

[VF5SS]

Gotta love how those Robotech fans are always demonizing Macross 7 as being about tree hugging hippies. Also how they attribute the best parts of the Robotech to the tie-in products.

[Keith]

Gotta love how those Robotech fans are always demonizing Macross 7 as being about tree hugging hippies. Also how they attribute the best parts of the Robotech to the tie-in products.

Poor misguided Robotech fans. We 7 fans don't care about that though, since we have a show with original content, and superbadasas Max!

Yeah, everywhere humanity has gone so far the Protoculture has apparently been there and done that. Personally I hope that a future Macross will show more about the Protoculture and who exactly they were.

So far all we really know about the Protoculture: they were the oldest and most advanced race of the universe spreading their culture everywhere and building Atlantic cities until they found a race of space vampires just looking for spiritra fed on them and fought them in a long grueling war. By then only any survivoring remainants of the Protoculture were able to some how find a way to ascend into a being of energy and have traveled to another plane of existance, except maybe that lone Protoculture spirit waiting for Basara and crew in Macross 7.

Which reminds me why hasn't Big West sued SyFy for ripping off their Ancient civilization and other ideas in: Stargate: SDF-1, Stargate: Ancient City from DYRL, and of course Stargate: Its our Destiny to search every Star in the universe for the Megaroad-1.

More specifically, in each Macross series, Humanity has achieved something that the Protoculture failed at:

-TV/DYRL: Demilitarizing the Zentradi, bringing them into a normal societal structure

-7: Stopping the Protodevelin from taking out hte entire universe, by doing more than just sealing them away

-Frontier: Establishing lines of communication/understanding with the Vajra, the apparent inspiration for all the Protoculture's doings.

-Overall: Rebuilding the Stellar Republic, as colony fleets have begun to form independent states/planets, and spread out across hte universe.

So what's next on the check list? The AFOS is still out there somewhere, waiting to judge humanity, and with an unknown level of technology. Sure it took a reaction missile to the face, but that didn't seem to phase it all that much.

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

Poor misguided Robotech fans. We 7 fans don't care about that though, since we have a show with original content, and superbadasas Max!

More specifically, in each Macross series, Humanity has achieved something that the Protoculture failed at:

-TV/DYRL: Demilitarizing the Zentradi, bringing them into a normal societal structure

-7: Stopping the Protodevelin from taking out hte entire universe, by doing more than just sealing them away

-Frontier: Establishing lines of communication/understanding with the Vajra, the apparent inspiration for all the Protoculture's doings.

-Overall: Rebuilding the Stellar Republic, as colony fleets have begun to form independent states/planets, and spread out across hte universe.

So what's next on the check list? The AFOS is still out there somewhere, waiting to judge humanity, and with an unknown level of technology. Sure it took a reaction missile to the face, but that didn't seem to phase it all that much.

True. As for the AFOS, you think we'll eventually find out what happened to Shin and Sarah?

[VFTF1]

I highly suspect that Shin and Sara are traversing the universe just like Bassara and Sivil did.

In fact, that was one of the few retroactive (although chronologically NOT) homages to M7 in Macross Zero.

Remember when Shin and Sarah are falling after their ride gets all shot up? They're falling to their certain deaths, then we see a bubble thingy envelope them for a moment and glimmer - and then suddenly Shin's waking up and Sarah's tending his wounds.

We saw that bubble thingy "before" (in the future) - aka in Macross Zero - it was the same one that Sivil put Bassara into and helped him travel through the universe.

It's a super dimmensional uber bubble that is faster than the fastest fold booster and is reserved for only the most passionate love hearts. It's a capsule where true love can break through any boundary, pierce the heavens themselves and traverse the dimmensions! It's a love-bubble of epic proportions! It's the shooting star that you see out the window and that fires the blazing inferno of your tetsugeki love heart! It's the passionate consumation of protoculture's predestined processions through purgatory and beyond! It's the gateway to xanadu, the lightning rod that illuminates the blackest depths of the farthest recesses of the most sublime penumbras of the void!

That's where they are.

Pete

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

I highly suspect that Shin and Sara are traversing the universe just like Bassara and Sivil did.

In fact, that was one of the few retroactive (although chronologically NOT) homages to M7 in Macross Zero.

Remember when Shin and Sarah are falling after their ride gets all shot up? They're falling to their certain deaths, then we see a bubble thingy envelope them for a moment and glimmer - and then suddenly Shin's waking up and Sarah's tending his wounds.

We saw that bubble thingy "before" (in the future) - aka in Macross Zero - it was the same one that Sivil put Bassara into and helped him travel through the universe.

It's a super dimmensional uber bubble that is faster than the fastest fold booster and is reserved for only the most passionate love hearts. It's a capsule where true love can break through any boundary, pierce the heavens themselves and traverse the dimmensions! It's a love-bubble of epic proportions! It's the shooting star that you see out the window and that fires the blazing inferno of your tetsugeki love heart! It's the passionate consumation of protoculture's predestined processions through purgatory and beyond! It's the gateway to xanadu, the lightning rod that illuminates the blackest depths of the farthest recesses of the most sublime penumbras of the void!

That's where they are.

Pete

Very well put! And thank you for clarifying that to me.

[Bri]

[...]

The early & mid years of Internet RT fandom pre RT.com caused new influx of RT fans eager to share, argue & debate about every aspects of RT they represented either the hardcore Purists (who relied on 85 RT eps + OSM), the vocal McKinniyist (who insisted novelisation as canon as the original animation), the RPGers (who're most never watched RT but actually enjoyed exploring RT-verse in their RPG gaming), Universalist (who can enjoy RT in equal measure) & the majority of casual (more probably ignorant) RT fans.

Of course RT has it flaws, that was obvious from the hack-job it made of, but its storyline that humanity had to fight multi-generational galactic war @ their doorstep for a unique power source kinda jived a logical sense to me than say ..... a franchise that begin with a bang with solid storyline & a good movie adaptation but having an intergalactic war stopped by a little human idol .... veered towards a mediocre imitation of the same movie adaptation but somewhat entertaining, then ditched in favor of a cleverly disguised Top-Gun inspired movie cloaked with transforming mecha, then ventured to a narcissitic tree-hugging guitar playing hubbub piloting vs space vampies, to a prequel that obviously tree-hugging & made some rocks floated, but redeemed itself with obvious ogling of new generation post-loli idols & ex-kabuki actor angst.

I'd guess that Macross has been drawing fans mostly from the Purist faction assuming they can get used to the less serious parts of Macross. Still it suggests hope for a split between Macross and Robotech if the remaining diehard RT fans are mostly novel readers and RPGers.

Rebooted RT .... I don't put too much hope into that. Fat chance in hell apart from retconning the official canon timeline. Not that I have a dim view of RT future, but strictly speaking, I kinda see future RT animation will be in the vein of Mospeada II. Not that I'd complain (as I'll be getting my Mospeada fix), but atleast RT do not need to stand on Macross anymore. I applaud Yune to actually retcon future RT projects bereft of Macross elements like RTSC, & that is a good thing eventhough the result is less than stellar.

Agreed, the creative focus earlier this decade was on the Mospeada side of things, unless the RLAM pans out it would seem the most likely future direction for the franchise.

[azrael]

I thought the news that WB wanted HG to stop all current Robotech work in progress so it doesn't interfere with the LAMR was a sign that they did lose control of their property. I don't know if that was true, can someone fact check that?

I would say it's the other-way-around. HG was the one who halted work on any current RT works until WB produces their movie so that it doesn't interfere with the LAM. WB doesn't have animation rights, just any live-action productions as far as I know.

As I've speculated out loud before, I would not be surprised if WB has no real ideas about the possible legal entanglements that could come about with the LAM. They are probably just dazzled about the possibility of having their own transforming robots franchise.

Agreed. WB is just seeing $$$$$$$$$$$ with the RT franchise. Paramount jumped for joy after what Transformers brought them.

But will RTLAM be a new Macross? BW hold all the aces in regards to original SDFM designs. My bet, if RTLAM ever get made, it'd have very, very little of Macross aesthetics. Kinda like how GC Mospeada took SDFM Valkyrie inspirations for its Legios.

Sure we gonna have a transforming fighters but no VF-1 clones, instead in high probability would be some stealth inspired new fighter designs. There will be no Hikaru Ichijo or Misa or any SDFM casts apart from the Robotech ones that ultimately will be posed by some Hollywood actors.

It won't be Hikaru Ichijyu or Misa Hayase. It will be Rick Hunter and Lisa Hayes. And Hollywood has a way of redesigning stuff for film. I won't be surprised if it looked like something from Stealth or if a F-22 made sweet love to a VF since the F-22 seems to be Hollywood's go-to girl for military hardware.

Robotech's new coat of pain? Why not? If it served the purpose of distancing RT franchise from Macross, that is sure to be good news for Macross in general.

It would be great for Macross since it RT would now have its own unique VF-1, SDF-1 and other things it can call its own.

Agreed, the creative focus earlier this decade was on the Mospeada side of things, unless the RLAM pans out it would seem the most likely future direction for the franchise.

At this point, the best solution would be to start anew. You can't keep old fans around forever. Otherwise, you get left with the colorful crowd of RT.com. RT:SC tried, but without wide appeal, it's not going to grab new fans. RT:SC seems to cater to the old crowd. It doesn't seem to do a good job of grabbing new crowds. And that's not going to cut it these days. Fans of the old days are in their 30s and 40s. That's not a sustainable market.

[Bri]

At this point, the best solution would be to start anew. You can't keep old fans around forever. Otherwise, you get left with the colorful crowd of RT.com. RT:SC tried, but without wide appeal, it's not going to grab new fans. RT:SC seems to cater to the old crowd. It doesn't seem to do a good job of grabbing new crowds. And that's not going to cut it these days. Fans of the old days are in their 30s and 40s. That's not a sustainable market.

I fully agree that a reboot would be the healthiest option for the RT franchise in the long term, but unless WB or another financial backer provides HG with means to start new projects I doubt HG will dare to take that risk. Question also arises if RT has enough meat to stand on it's own and attract newer, younger fans without the existing animes to prop it up. An aging market is still preferable to no market at all. Rebooting the franchise would also mean that Tats stands to lose income from their licensing. I don't know if HG can or wants to take a chance on that relationship. Maybe it would be better (at least for RT's long term prospects) if that tie gets severed, though this would have little impact on Macross.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Bri

[VFTF1]

At this point, the best solution would be to start anew.

No.

The best solution would be for the President and CEO of Harmony Godl to cross that field and apologize for a hundred years of rape, pillage, and bloodshed before hoisting his flag and going hom.

And then, their commanding officer can put his head between his legs and kiss his own arse.

Wait...sorry...sorry...channeling Braveheart...

But seriously - or maybe not so seriously;) - the best thing would be to wake up and find the following communique on Robotech.com:

FIRE!!!!!!!! How could we have been so blind?! After over twenty years of shredding other people's work and re-packaging it as half assed crap, we finally decided to watch some original Japanese anime -and what better place to start than Macross? What? We didn't tell you that we never watched the original? Yep, yep. It's true. We just saw the animation but there were no translations and nobody in the office even spoke Japanese. ANYWAYS - a few nights ago we were bored out of our mind and downloaded some Macross - we've now gotten through Macross Frontier and everything that came before and THIS IS AWESOME!! We're so totally shutting down our stupid Robotech operations and singing up to MW.com! And we can't wait to amass a huge collection of Yammies! BOMBA!

Pete

[taksraven]

At this point, the best solution would be to start anew. You can't keep old fans around forever. Otherwise, you get left with the colorful crowd of RT.com. RT:SC tried, but without wide appeal, it's not going to grab new fans. RT:SC seems to cater to the old crowd. It doesn't seem to do a good job of grabbing new crowds. And that's not going to cut it these days. Fans of the old days are in their 30s and 40s. That's not a sustainable market.

I certainly agree with this point. It becomes a real tightrope walk, trying to draw in new fans but not alienating the old ones. A lot of RT fans would be hitting the late 30's early 40's stage of their life which for many will mean that they are falling out of the highest disposable income demographic as they start to settle down and get homes and mortgages. ( Just joined that club myself two weeks ago)

Also by that phase they are usually pretty close to the midlife crisis (OH MY GOD! I'M NOT GOING TO LIVE FOREVER, WHO WILL REMEMBER ME WHEN I AM DEAD? WHAT HAVE I DONE WITH MY LIFE? WHY AM I STILL WATCHING CHILDRENS CARTOONS AND COLLECTING TOYS? I HAD BETTER START SCREWING AROUND WITH A NINETEEN YEAR OLD SO PEOPLE WILL THINK THAT I AM YOUNGER THAN I REALLY AM!! etc, etc........) and this creates further disinterest in things like RT.

I think that Macross Frontier did a fair job of walking that tightrope, by the way....

Nuts and Gum, together at last!!

Taksraven

[Einherjar]

What rabid fans have been doing recently isn't considered signs of a midlife crisis?

[Seto Kaiba]

But will RTLAM be a new Macross? BW hold all the aces in regards to original SDFM designs. My bet, if RTLAM ever get made, it'd have very, very little of Macross aesthetics. Kinda like how GC Mospeada took SDFM Valkyrie inspirations for its Legios.

That's pretty much everyone's assessment, actually. The movie IS billed as a "reimagining". There are some rumors that they're going to have a few familiar names, but all-new designs.

Yeah, the 'Rick Hunter' factor. Prelude runs on nostalgia, & quickly killed off any characters that has sentimental or nostalgic value like Lang, Breetai, Exedore ... making others conveniently disappear like Lisa, Max & Miriya. Prelude served its purpose to disengaged Macross sentimentalities while moving to a new incarnation of Mospeada ... uhh RTSC.

Except that the "Rick Hunter" factor is still very much in play, and if that draft is anything else to go by, Rick will NEVER die. He'll be there as the main selling point of whatever Robotech sequels they sell from now until the Robotech franchise finally shrivels up and dies.

Poor misguided Robotech fans. We 7 fans don't care about that though, since we have a show with original content, and superbadasas Max!

Y'know, there was a time when I would have agreed that some parts of Robotech were more watchable than Macross 7. After listening to many of the vocal albums, my chief complaint with the series shifted from Basara being a pillock to them NOT using a shitload of good music that would've made the series infinitely more watchable.

I'd guess that Macross has been drawing fans mostly from the Purist faction assuming they can get used to the less serious parts of Macross. Still it suggests hope for a split between Macross and Robotech if the remaining diehard RT fans are mostly novel readers and RPGers.

You're hoping in vain, I'm afraid. From what I've seen a lot of the people who jump ship from Robotech over to Macross are the casual RT fans who hear about more material in the same vein as their favorite saga, and the readers of the novels and comics, who are more open to trying new things. The purist faction of the Robotech fanbase are the ones who are militantly anti-Macross for the most part.

What rabid fans have been doing recently isn't considered signs of a midlife crisis?

I guess you could interpret it that way... though it's a lot easier (and probably more accurate) to write it off either as a psychological clusterfart resulting from combining a persecution complex, an inferiority complex, and some good old fashioned delusions of grandeur.

[taksraven]

What rabid fans have been doing recently isn't considered signs of a midlife crisis?

Naah, I think that a midlife crisis is more internal (Its all about ME!!!) rather than the traditional RT fan insecurities that have been manifested lately.

Taksraven

[Wanzerfan]

So, in continuing with our theme of picking the brains of Robotech fans...what do the comics bring to the table for you? Just calling it as I see it, with no value judgment or offense intended, you DO seem like more of a Robotech fan than a Macross fan (at least, anyone who hasn't seen SDFM or Macross Frontier, hates Macross 7 and Plus, and never mentions DYRL, II, or Zero doesn't seem terribly passionate about Macross). So what it is about the Robotech comics that make them surpass Macross for you?

Not to be sounding rude...

When it first came out as a test run back in early 85, I caught Robotech on KTXH at 3:00pm CST and was hooked. Then the novels came out around '86 and collected those. I also started collecting the old Comico comics (lord, were those early issues ugly). I also started to collect the Eterity line (sadly my #1 got screwed up, but seeing the franchise I doubt it would be worth much in mint condition) of comics when they first came out in '87 (I have most of book 1, but only have #5 if book 2). In the early nineties I started collecting the Palladium roleplaying games (I have most of them, I'm only missing the adventure book Ghost Ship). About that time ('92) the Macross II roleplaying game came out and I snapped that up (I copied most of the mecha stats in that book and sent them off to Seto in a massive e-mail), which turned me on to the miniseries. I joined Robotech.com back in 03 (where I met Seto, Marrin, and Marshall among the members and cyc, azoric, and totalkrig among the moderators I could stomach), and around the same time started collecting the new line of comics. I bailed on the new comics after issue #6 when I saw where the storyline was heading (putting Johnathan Wolff on board the SDF-1 on its voyage killed it for me; dropping the Malcontent Uprisings storyline was not a good idea in my book). That began a long slide into disillusionment of the franchise. In 05 I was banned for posting a joke that Steve didn't take too well, and for a comment stating that any other storyline than the current one was basically put into the trash. The Robotech games were aslo the final nails in the coffin for the franchise (Battlecry was mediocre at best; Invasion sucked donkey dicks, not being able to change into motorcycle mode killed it; and the GBA release was basicly a Gradius ripoff).

The only reason why I haven't said anything about Macross Frontier is that I have yet to see it. The reason why I can't stand Plus is how the stroyline was handled (amost no Zentran/Meltran, and haveing a psychopatic AI as an antagonist didn't help matters any). Also I haven't seen the Macross 7 franchise, but heard enough of it to turn me off (a sonic weapon that is used in space against mecha that have unpressurized cockpits? and a mecha that's so overpowered that it would be most likely banned as a weapon of mass destruction).

Oh, and about my comment about the Lensman movie script being penned by the same author as the seires of books, I suffered a massive brain fart when I posted that, I apologise for that. It was the screenplay to "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" that was written by the author of the series of books, Douglas Adams. I saw that movie in the theatre, and saw his name in the opening credits, and well, confused the two movies.

[Gubaba]

Not to be sounding rude...

When it first came out as a test run back in early 85, I caught Robotech on KTXH at 3:00pm CST and was hooked. Then the novels came out around '86 and collected those. I also started collecting the old Comico comics (lord, were those early issues ugly). I also started to collect the Eterity line (sadly my #1 got screwed up, but seeing the franchise I doubt it would be worth much in mint condition) of comics when they first came out in '87 (I have most of book 1, but only have #5 if book 2). In the early nineties I started collecting the Palladium roleplaying games (I have most of them, I'm only missing the adventure book Ghost Ship). About that time ('92) the Macross II roleplaying game came out and I snapped that up (I copied most of the mecha stats in that book and sent them off to Seto in a massive e-mail), which turned me on to the miniseries. I joined Robotech.com back in 03 (where I met Seto, Marrin, and Marshall among the members and cyc, azoric, and totalkrig among the moderators I could stomach), and around the same time started collecting the new line of comics. I bailed on the new comics after issue #6 when I saw where the storyline was heading (putting Johnathan Wolff on board the SDF-1 on its voyage killed it for me; dropping the Malcontent Uprisings storyline was not a good idea in my book). That began a long slide into disillusionment of the franchise. In 05 I was banned for posting a joke that Steve didn't take too well, and for a comment stating that any other storyline than the current one was basically put into the trash. The Robotech games were aslo the final nails in the coffin for the franchise (Battlecry was mediocre at best; Invasion sucked donkey dicks, not being able to change into motorcycle mode killed it; and the GBA release was basicly a Gradius ripoff).

The only reason why I haven't said anything about Macross Frontier is that I have yet to see it. The reason why I can't stand Plus is how the stroyline was handled (amost no Zentran/Meltran, and haveing a psychopatic AI as an antagonist didn't help matters any). Also I haven't seen the Macross 7 franchise, but heard enough of it to turn me off (a sonic weapon that is used in space against mecha that have unpressurized cockpits? and a mecha that's so overpowered that it would be most likely banned as a weapon of mass destruction).

You don't sound rude at all, and I apologize if my message came off as rude as well.

But again, you dislike Macross Plus, and you don't want to see Macross 7 (although I think you've been misinformed about the sound boosters, and I'm not sure which mecha you're talking about...), but you like the Eternity Robotech comics. What is it about them that you respond to?

Oh, and about my comment about the Lensman movie script being penned by the same author as the seires of books, I suffered a massive brain fart when I posted that, I apologise for that. It was the screenplay to "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" that was written by the author of the series of books, Douglas Adams. I saw that movie in the theatre, and saw his name in the opening credits, and well, confused the two movies.

Funnily enough, Douglas Adams died a few years before the Hitchhiker's. They say that the screenplay was begun by him and finished by other people, but I have my doubts... (not that that's relevant, really.)

So yeah, the Robotech comics. What do you find good about them?