HG and Robotech Debates

[Funkenstein]

Sex is worse than violence, of course. That's why The Dark Knight got a PG-13 rating.

[hulagu]

From the official RT site: As a precocious 15 year-old, Lynn Minmei nonetheless becomes one of the most influential figures of the First Robotech War.

YouTube Robotech: The Macross Saga / The Long Wait 8:37 sec in.

So Doug what is this then.

Or how about the least convincing "15 year old" ever, Annie LaBelle, ever from Robotech the Next Generation, who not only has a gratitious bath scene, but is actively soliciting marriage for most of the series.

Edited December 11, 2009 by hulagu

[terry the lone wolf]

MACROSS FRONTIER IS NOT CHILD PORNOGRAPHY....

Ok now, I've watched the show subbed and I never had the impression that Ranka was being exploited or being too sexual. Actually Nanase and Sheryl were the ones that fit that bill but in a tongue in cheek sort of way. Ranka was more like Mao Nome in Macross Zero, a girl that had to grow up fast because of the circumstances of her life. When Ranka matured from having Sheryl as her sempai to becoming her rival she had to change.

This is a recurring theme in Japanese anime: The young grow up fast..

Now Doug, I assume you like the Macross Saga portion of RT. You do remember Minmay's shower scene? Do you consider that child pornography? Or is it your dislike for Frontier that makes you feel that way.

Edited December 11, 2009 by terry the lone wolf

[Seto Kaiba]

Also Marlene is shown at least three times in the buff and in the show she goes from larva to human for so see is actually less than a year old.

Oh yes, I've confronted him on that before... he tried to handwave aside the multiple nude scenes and later blatant sexual objectification of Ariel/Marlene on the grounds that she's an alien and according to him she "represents evolution" or some tripe along those lines, despite the fact that by the end of the New Generation Saga and the start of the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie she's a mere 16 months old. Clearly our friend Mr. Bendo is totally okay with it so long as he can call the girl an "alien", regardless of what she actually looks like.

Or how about the least convincing "15 year old" ever, Annie LaBelle, ever from Robotech the Next Generation, who not only has a gratitious bath scene, but is actively soliciting marriage for most of the series.

Don't think we didn't call him out on that one either. He tried quite hard to excuse Annie's extremely young appearance, partial nudity, and husband-hunting. His excuse for the bath scene, that it doesn't matter that she's naked and underage because they cover up the naughty bits and she's with "adults", was the very picture of hypocrisy. He damn near blew a gasket when we showed him what that same scene contained in the Robotech Remastered edition.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[VFTF1]

SETO:

Oh yes, I've confronted him on that before... he tried to handwave aside the multiple nude scenes and later blatant sexual objectification of Ariel/Marlene on the grounds that she's an alien and according to him she "represents evolution" or some tripe along those lines, despite the fact that by the end of the New Generation Saga and the start of the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles movie she's a mere 16 months old. Clearly our friend Mr. Bendo is totally okay with it so long as he can call the girl an "alien", regardless of what she actually looks like.

To quote the master "that's retarted!"

If Doug Bendo can admit that the nudity of Ariel "represents" ANYTHING other than what is literally shown - why can't he admit that my arguments that Ranka's nudity represents her breaking free of her doubts and letting her true self shine also holds?

Don't think we didn't call him out on that one either. He tried quite hard to excuse Annie's extremely young appearance, partial nudity, and husband-hunting. His excuse for the bath scene, that it doesn't matter that she's naked and underage because they cover up the naughty bits and she's with "adults", was the very picture of hypocrisy. He damn near blew a gasket when we showed him what that same scene contained in the Robotech Remastered edition.

Well Ranka was with adults too...

But..but...

ALL Children who are victims of adult sexual exploitation are with adults!!

So - how does he therefore distinguish between what's porn and what's not?

It sounds like the answer is as follows:

Everything in Macross is pornography.

Everything in robot is interesting and metaphorical and intelligent.

The problem with even THAT argument is that the nude scenes of Minmey in Robotech are the SAME scenes as in Macross.

So - what to think?

Basically this:

When two people kiss in Macross and a big dude shouts "ALIEN CIVILIZATION!" - it's PORNO.

When two people kiss in Robotech and a big dude shouts "FLOWER!" - it's art.

??

Pete

[Gubaba]

No offense everyone, but this is all kind of...stupid.

I don't think it's even worth debating, but there's no debate to be had.

Here's the debate:

"Q: Is Macross Frontier kiddie porn?"

"A: No, it's not."

End of argument. There's really nothing more to be said. Sure, we can all post elaborate defenses, but all that does is make it seem as though Frontier needs defending from this charge. And it doesn't.

[VFTF1]

No offense everyone, but this is all kind of...stupid.

I don't think it's even worth debating, but there's no debate to be had.

Here's the debate:

"Q: Is Macross Frontier kiddie porn?"

"A: No, it's not."

End of argument. There's really nothing more to be said. Sure, we can all post elaborate defenses, but all that does is make it seem as though Frontier needs defending from this charge. And it doesn't.

As the old saying goes... You know that. I know that... but does...so-and-so know that?

Apprently not

But ok - fine.

Let's move to a NEW TOPIC.

One for which BOTH Doug and MEMO will help perfectly.

We have - on our thread, on our forum, in our midst - a legend!

The NUMBER ONE ROBOTECH FAN in the whole world! Doug Bendo.

So - Doug - please tell us in a detailed post WHY Robotech is great, and why it is better than Macross?

Memo - I would love to see you give your reasons too.

This is what I've been waiting for a long time now. So - now that we have the top Robotech fans here- let's give them the floor!

Tell us guys what is so amazing about Robotech that makes it worth anyone's while and - specifically - why is it better than Macross?

I'm all ears - or eyes in this case.

Pete

[Seto Kaiba]

End of argument. There's really nothing more to be said. Sure, we can all post elaborate defenses, but all that does is make it seem as though Frontier needs defending from this charge. And it doesn't.

What did you expect? After all, the assertion that Macross Frontier is child pornography came from Doug Bendo of all people... that it's ignorant and utterly pointless should go without saying. It's a waste of time debating the matter with him anyway. It doesn't matter how elegantly you construct your well-reasoned response, it'll almost certainly be ignored because it's inconvenient to what he wants to believe. Bendo has decided Macross Frontier is child pornography, so it's no use trying to change his mind while he still considers himself above such trivialities as facts and logic.

We have - on our thread, on our forum, in our midst - a legend!

The NUMBER ONE ROBOTECH FAN in the whole world! Doug Bendo.

Now Pete, let's not insult Robotech fans everywhere by making wildly inaccurate statements like "Doug Bendo is the number one Robotech fan". That's like calling a bucket of medical waste haute cuisine.

So - Doug - please tell us in a detailed post WHY Robotech is great, and why it is better than Macross?

Memo - I would love to see you give your reasons too.

Well Pete, I guess it's down to you to translate their various forms of unintelligible gibberish for us.

[VFTF1]

Well Pete, I guess it's down to you to translate their various forms of unintelligible gibberish for us.

And that I will do.

Now - I've been wondering: so...why hasn't Doug responded to all the counter-points re: MF = child porn, and why hasn't he posted any answer the the "what's so great about Robotech?" question.

And now I understand.

It's because, like all great intellects, Doug's writings have an exoteric and an esoteric meaning. We've only been looking at their exoteric form, but we missed the essoteric content just beneath the surface. Doug's silence is actually not silent, but he has simply made his point before I even got around to asking the question.

I am truly impressed - but finally I figured it out.

If you analyze Doug Bendo's writings, you will see that he writes in code - and that it is possible to extrapolate the secrets of the universe from his work, not to mention answer the question as to why Robotch is so great.

I will now proceed to go back and cut and paste various portions of his scholarly dissertations to answer the questions we all want answered:

I bet you that these seemingly random compositions of random Doug Bendo quotes will be eerily similar to what he might well write should he deign to visit us with an answer:

Why Robotech is Awesome

By Doug Bendo

Translated by VFTF1

sucks. I can go off of pure downloads if you shup the hell up about robotech Does that sound good to you in the form of nudity like a child perposly made as “human” says an naked girl in the a space battle retarted I shup the hell up about robotech.

ok for a MINOR to be naked in japan?! ALL 3 live in the US bunk robotech every chance you get robotech fans did start standing up a total line of bs. Just like the little girl you could care less what any try to denie it because memo and everyone else was there. MW now doesn't mean Ill be any lesson of the robotech fan because the side you took was simply illegal.

your crap she is to be implied to be a entity that we are to relate to as “human” ANYTHING great going on because he doesn’t. Now what I find so funny is that you tried to get me band

----------------------------------------------------------------

And that folks - is why Robotech is superior to Macross.

Pete

Edited December 11, 2009 by VFTF1

[Einherjar]

Why does this Doug Bendo generate so much emotion? I can't find any way to say it without being rude, but in his post he doesn't come across as a stable or sane individual, so why take his words seriously?

This is his legacy, with a hated for a lot of people and lashing out at specific people; Macross, Macross Purists, HG, Shadow Chronicles, Memo at one time and probably still, it's been a lot of people over the years.

[VFTF1]

I dunno I'm so underwhelmed

It's like Cpt. Donovan all over again. To me - Robotech fans are the most incomprehensible fandom out there. I mean - even the lousiest cartoons have fandoms that make sense, because usually if a cartoon is camp or something, people can appreciate its' campiness. I have never ever encountered a fandom that I didn't understand - in the sense of understanding why the like what they like and what might ake them very enthusiastic about it.

But in the case of Robotech -it's like something inexplicable. I watch something like Shadow Chronicles and it's like - you know, technically it's not horrible - but it certainly isn't unique, it's not a masterpiece either in animation, story telling - nothing. Beyond that - what does Robotech have? The original 85 hack job - which to me is totally uninteresting because I just prefer the original Japanese anime. The novels? If I'm bored and I want somehing light then fine. I can read those. Not hard on the brain - although even then I find myself mildly more interested in "Macross saga" novels then in the other ones...

But....these guys are Robotech fans - supposedly like really big time.

And they keep dissapointing.

Wierd obsessions like the stupid lenght of the SDF-1 - which is just the most retarded thing to argue about. More retarded then even the "MF=porn?" question because I can VAGUELY see how it is possible to steer the MF=Porn? issue into something ressembling a reasonable discussion - namely we can discuss fanservice and sexualization in anime - something which CAN be discussed intelligently without calling people pedophiles as we've proven in other threads (like the Itano thread).

I guess it's like Seto's feeling when he debates Memo about the court case.

Memo keeps ignoring Seto's argument - that there's no Court Order regarding the main issue, but just a denial of some technical motion. Memo acts like the fact that there was a settlement rather than explicit Court Order in favor of HG is the equivalent of an explicit Court Order.

The two keep talking past eachother.

Except that Seto actually ACKNOWLEDGES the words Memo writes.

Memo just pretends Seto never writes his conclusions.

Now Doug Bendo comes along.

And it's just Cpt. Donovan all over again.

And all of these guys have ONE Modus Operandus:

They ALL have ONE POINT consisting of UP TO THREE LAME ARGUMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE POINT.

And they just repeat those lame arguments ad infinitum.

Hell - it's sad that most of the criticism of my posts comes from people who farting agree with me.

Anime28K (Mike) posted comments pointing out where my "child porn must concern living children not cartoons" argument had potential flaws.

But you think Doug Bendo knew about the stuff Mike was talking about? No.

Robowell28 pointed out my mistake when I babbled on about naked Ranka from the opening, when the issue was naked Ranka from the ending of the series.

And this is basically what MW looks like.

We all discuss and throw out ideas, and while it's true that some of us have pretty recognizable views (Pete loves Bassara, Gubaba and Keith have pretty clear disagreements over EVA etc etc etc) - often times we end up correcting eachother and pointing stuff out to eachother.

I don't get the feeling there's any circular boring repetition going on amongst us. You say potato, I say tomato and that's it.

But now we've had three Robotech fans come through here who explicitly came in to challenge our perceptions.

And....well...?

What?

Nothing

Seeing that a couple of half assed posts brought nothing but a tidal wave of questions from all of us - these guys....don't answer

That sucks

I'm dissapointed.

If this goes on any longer - I'm going to become a Robotech fan out of pity. Seriously. I'm going to open my own Robotech website and TRY to find SOMETHING redeemable in that show - just to PROVE that it can be done.

Pete

[azrael]

I don't get the feeling there's any circular boring repetition going on amongst us. You say potato, I say tomato and that's it.

Actually it is very circular/repetative (Yes, I dug that out of 2003). The players change, but the debate and argument are the same. Only back then, we had users using proper English grammar and correct punctuation. Go back and read the old versions of this thread for yourself and you'll see. This time, we have users like Seto, memo, and doug, who seem to be following one another around (Seto, seriously, we need to have a talk about the people that follow you home ). It's way beyond silly stupid and trust me, in 10 years of being here, this has happened before and will happen again. I'm just waiting for the one random event to even things out.

[EXO]

The way these guys write, I don't nderstand how you can even take them seriously.

[Wanzerfan]

Seto and viper how imagine I find you here!!!!!!!

First off seto memo only endorse robotech 00 NOT robotech fan. Second you said it was ok for a MINOR to be naked in a sifi show because is came from japan?! I never said it was all macross fan that are like that seto. Its just that you say your the most important macross export of all and it ok to have minors just fine to have minors in the nude just for the sake of it. Why do I have a problem with that there...hmmm, lets see. It could be because it is illegal in this country to do that seto. Having minors in the nude for purpose of entertainment (witch is what happen in macross ft) is illegal in the USA. No and, if or buts about it seto and viper. I don't care what the law is in japan. We ALL 3 live in the US and that poo doesn't go on here.

But you know I find it is funny that we are talking about that is legal and not legal here because last week when seto and viper after loosing a debate on this issue on a live show of mine for hundreds of people to lesson to; got pissed when behind my back and tried to get my pod cast canceled by talkshoe. So what happened then? Well after I informed talkshoe on the issue of what told them to lesson the the podcast "of how old is she", gave them the pics and some of the forum talk on robotechx.com Tell us seto and viper what was the conclusion they came too? Thats right they said to banned you asses because the side you took was simply illegal. Now what I find so funny is that you tried to get me band and you go bannned instead, lol.

Now the whole "death to macross purist!" I never said that seto. I hate to break this to you seto but you bring it on your self. You simply have an un-healthy obsession with trying to debunk robotech every chance you get. But it hasn't worked. Infact the only person who keeps on getting debunked is you. lets just go with the quote death to macross purist. Tell me seto what do you think that person means. For one I am shock that you would claim it was me who said it because it was on JT show and you give him all his talking notes. But do your really think a person who is saying death to macross purist is really saying they want you to die. Not so much. Its the crazy act that you people take that make you macross purist that robotech fans are simply tired of and want to go away. So do I have a problem with what the person is saying .... No! Its about time that robotech fans did start standing up to you and saying what they feel they need to say.

For example the masters vs uns trend we had going. You couldn't proves poo about anything. All you could do is give the long winded exhalations about macross continuity and then try to plug it into the robotech world. Everytime you said something I was able to prove something from the animation that said other wise. I was ever able to show you frames. Yet you still tried to gave us all a total line of bs. At the viper held up the white flag. Another example you trying to tell us all that the sdf was 1210 meters in length! But there was not one moment you could find in robotech that backed up your claim. Just like the little girl you said "well the creater said it was 1210 meter". Just like "the creater said she was 16 and she said in post spacewar 1 16 is of legal age". You know the fact that you tryed to tell me seto that legal age in macross in post spacewar one is 16year shows you know it is wrong but you just don't want to admit to it because its macross.

Personally I could care less what any of you here think of me. I read the stuff on here about me and "I have to say it makes for good reading"! But the fact is seto you and viper are no where near the kind of mean you claim your selves to be. Allow keep one thing in mind seto when you speak my name. You ran from me when you ran out of talking points and after you got caught trying to get me banned from talk shoe. Don't try to denie it because memo and everyone else was there. Just because I'm in your MW now doesn't mean Ill be any lesson of the robotech fan I am at any other time.

Oh, good lord, an even bigger bullshit artist than MEMO. Have you learned your lesson on flaming, bub? You just about ruined my civil debate thread regarding the evolution differance of mecha between U.N. Spacy and the R.D.F/R.E.F. with your antics over in Robotech.com.

From the official RT site: As a precocious 15 year-old, Lynn Minmei nonetheless becomes one of the most influential figures of the First Robotech War.

YouTube Robotech: The Macross Saga / The Long Wait 8:37 sec in.

Welcome to MW Doug. As you say "You have to watch the animation" so what is this then. HG could have left out the underage nudity and kept the blood for the remastered stuff, so I guess they don't have a problem with it as a corporate entity as they say "Watch Robotech for free (legally) online!".

Also Marlene is shown at least three times in the buff and in the show she goes from larva to human form so see is actually less than a year old.

Wasn't Lynn Minmay, and maybe all main characters of the original Macross series, for that matter, supposed to have been over 18?

Edited December 11, 2009 by Wanzerfan

[VFTF1]

EXO:

The way these guys write, I don't nderstand how you can even take them seriously.

Well, having taught english as a second language to people, I am accustomed to people having really poor language skills. I understand Doug is from Ohio apparently and Memo is from CA, so I shouldn't be tolerating their lax writing skills as much as I am - but...I dunno...I guess I've just conditioned myself to be tolerant of poor english since I'm surrounded by it on a daily basis. I also teach mentally handicapped people - so again, I am used to sitting down with a person who sounds seven times worse than that Corky guy from that TV show (forgot what it was called). Yet I still have to figure out what these folks are trying to tell me and find some way to teach them something.

So I guess when I see Memo and Doug's posts - my experience working with handicapped people kicks in and I'm able to basically figure out what it is they're saying.

It's just too bad they don't try to expand their knowledge like my students do. That's actually the real problem - not their bad english.

Pete

Edited December 11, 2009 by VFTF1

[VFTF1]

Wanzerfan:

Wasn't Lynn Minmay, and maybe all main characters of the original Macross series, for that matter, supposed to have been over 18?

In Robotech -yes.

In Macross - no.

But if Doug gets out of Save's question by saying "she's 18 in Robotech! So that's not kiddie porn!" then that's really lame. It's lame because the footage is the same thing - her naked ass. And in Japan, she was also at the age of concent. So if you can say "In Robotech - that scene isn't kiddie porn because she's 18 but in Macross, the exact same picture IS kiddie porn because she's 15" then... that means, to quote Bill Paxton:

"Hey - I think this guy's a couple can's short of a six pack!"

Pete

[Wanzerfan]

Wanzerfan:

In Robotech -yes.

In Macross - no.

But if Doug gets out of Save's question by saying "she's 18 in Robotech! So that's not kiddie porn!" then that's really lame. It's lame because the footage is the same thing - her naked ass. And in Japan, she was also at the age of concent. So if you can say "In Robotech - that scene isn't kiddie porn because she's 18 but in Macross, the exact same picture IS kiddie porn because she's 15" then... that means, to quote Bill Paxton:

"Hey - I think this guy's a couple can's short of a six pack!"

Pete

That's right, the AOC's 14 in Japan.

Actually, her Robotech charcter's starting age was 15 (hence the episode title "Sweet Sixteen" in The Macross Saga). They would have to change the name of the title of that episode if they change her age to 18 at the beginning of the series.

[VFTF1]

Actually, her Robotech charcter's starting age was 15 (hence the episode title "Sweet Sixteen" in The Macross Saga). They would have to change the name of the title of that episode if they change her age to 18 at the beginning of the series.

Huh. I didn't know thatl, since I never really watched Robotech - just watched the opening and snippets of two episodes (one where Lisa is saved by Rick from the hands of a dead Zendradi and says something like "Oh Rick! I've always loved you! Hee hee hee!" which is so much worse than "Leave me Hikaru! I have lost the camera and failed my mission" speech, which is followed by Hikaru saying "I won't leave a girl behind!" and Misa smiling because Hikaru looked at her as a woman first, and an officer second - such a touching moment.... the other one being when Alaska base was nuked and Hikaru again came to save Misa - and again I found the Robotech version corny)....

But - yeah. I didn't know that about Robotech Minmey.

I just assumed based on Doug Bendo's extremist position that naked female characters in a cartoon who are under 18 are pornographic would kind of make it necessary for him to insist that Minmeny in that shot is over 18.

But...that would be expecting logic out of his position I guess

Pete

[Rossi]

Huh. I didn't know thatl, since I never really watched Robotech - just watched the opening and snippets of two episodes (one where Lisa is saved by Rick from the hands of a dead Zendradi and says something like "Oh Rick! I've always loved you! Hee hee hee!" which is so much worse than "Leave me Hikaru! I have lost the camera and failed my mission" speech, which is followed by Hikaru saying "I won't leave a girl behind!" and Misa smiling because Hikaru looked at her as a woman first, and an officer second - such a touching moment.... the other one being when Alaska base was nuked and Hikaru again came to save Misa - and again I found the Robotech version corny)....

After reading this statement, VFTF1, I am having a difficult time understanding where your displeasure for Robotech truly stems from. Comments on the boards? Feedback from friends? If you have never attempted to watch the series, how can you be so critical of the fans who enjoy something you have yet to see? If you have never watched more than a couple of "snippets" from two episodes, and/or the opening theme, I would find your criticisms of the entire series, and its fans, highly suspect.

I will agree with you that Robotech has a much higher "corn" factor when compared to Macross, but I think I would have a hard time convincing you that Robotech, the bastardization of three separate series that it is, is worth your time if you have already passed judgement on it.

After viewing Macross, the flaws in Robotech's "Macross Saga" are evident, but it does not diminish my enjoyment of either series. Rather, I find that I have more of an appreciation for Carl Macek's efforts to expose American audiences to something that he thought was special. Is it seamless? Absolutely not! Was it handled well afterwards? Certainly not. Was it a hell of a lot of fun to watch as a kid? Yes. I still watch anime, and I enjoy it quite a bit. My tastes have changed over the years, however, and I tend to watch Robotech less and less. That doesn't mean that I won't get a kick out of watching it again someday (it is a fun series, if nothing else). For me, Robotech is like an old pair of sneakers - comfortable and snug. Sure, the tread is wearing a bit thin, but you KNOW those sneakers (and they look great with a pair of shorts). Macross, for me anyway, is like the new pair of shoes. They fit they way they are supposed to, you know? There's more tread and a little more bounce in my step. When it comes time to play on the turf or go for a run, these are my go-to shoes. Both pairs of shoes serve a purpose, though, and I'm not ready to replace either pair. Not yet.

Yep. Shoes... You have my apologies for a weak analogy, at best.

[Funkenstein]

At least you didn't compare it to the length of the SDF-1.

[VFTF1]

After reading this statement, VFTF1, I am having a difficult time understanding where your displeasure for Robotech truly stems from. Comments on the boards? Feedback from friends? If you have never attempted to watch the series, how can you be so critical of the fans who enjoy something you have yet to see? If you have never watched more than a couple of "snippets" from two episodes, and/or the opening theme, I would find your criticisms of the entire series, and its fans, highly suspect....I will agree with you that Robotech has a much higher "corn" factor when compared to Macross, but I think I would have a hard time convincing you that Robotech, the bastardization of three separate series that it is, is worth your time if you have already passed judgement on it.

I understand you have a difficult time understanding - because you're new here and probably never read any of my posts in which, from time to time, I give my basic number 1 reason why I dislike Robotech. I will repeat it for you here:

My biggest problem with Robotech has nothing to do with the show, or the movies, or the fans. It has to do with Cease and Decist letters that HG sent out to small retailers like Kevin from valkyrieexchange.com and to big retailers like Bigbadtoystore, which at one point announced to people that they wouldn't be able to sell Yamato valkyrie any more (they have since obviously sensibly come to the conclusion that they legally can sell Yamato valkyries).

That's it. That's my only true grudge with them.

It's a grudge because I think that HG are using bully tactics to threaten people who just want to enjoy their human rights to chose which products they want to buy and what franchises they want to give their money to.

I have never written definitively that Robotech sucks - I would never make a definitive argument to that extent because to do so with any credibility - you are right - I'd have to watch all of it.

I have also on numerous occasions praised the Palladium Role Playing games and talked about how I played them as a kid.

I never saw Robotech as a kid because it wasn't syndicated in the part of the USA I lived and by the time I got into Macross, Robotech was this vague thing that "also" was out there.

Finally - I have read three of the novels (Zendradi Rebellion, Planet Killers (?) and Masters Gambit).

I wouldn't ne so hostile towards the Robotech franchise if HG didn't flex its' muscles towards retailers the way it has - but since they have, I hold an especially negative view of them because I think people should compete based on the merits of their product and not based on bullying tactics and legal threats.

I wouldn't have anything against watching it as such - and I probably would have watched all of it and most likely been more enthusiastic about it if not for what HG has recently done.

That's my view in a nutshell.

For me, Robotech is like an old pair of sneakers - comfortable and snug. Sure, the tread is wearing a bit thin, but you KNOW those sneakers (and they look great with a pair of shorts). Macross, for me anyway, is like the new pair of shoes. They fit they way they are supposed to, you know? There's more tread and a little more bounce in my step. When it comes time to play on the turf or go for a run, these are my go-to shoes. Both pairs of shoes serve a purpose, though, and I'm not ready to replace either pair. Not yet.

Yep. Shoes... You have my apologies for a weak analogy, at best.

It's a good analogy, and I understand it on a personal level since I feel that way about Transformers and other shows from the 80s that I grew up on. Robotech wasn't one of them, so I never had this "problem" of "learning the truth" Some other members on this baord had childhoods similarly untainted by Robotech - Gubaba for example has written about how he knew full well that Macross was a different entity when he was a little kid too.

Anyways - I hope I've cleared up any misconceptions.

I do admit that I made a lot of fun of Robotech and say a lot of critical things about it - but look...have you ever seen the Chinese Bootleg version of Star Wars? Ever read the crazy subtitles to the Chinese dubs?

Now - as a Star Wars fan who has watched the original - are you going to tell me that I need to watch the bootleg subs/dubs of Chinese Pirate Star Wars - ALL TWO HOURS OF IT - to criticize it?

I don't think so.

Robotech is, ultimately, a bootleg of Macross. As I have written before - I do appreciate the original intention that Macek had of bringing anime to the USA and I am aware of the requirements syndication wrought on the effort and what was behind the choice to merge three seperate anime.

Fine.

Nevertheless - from my point of view - I watched Macross. I like Macross. Robotech has nothing to do with Macross, except that it is an American bootleg of Macross. A Macross fan in Japan does not need to watch Robotech and formulate an opinion on it in order to be able to say "I like Macross better" just like a Star Wars fan doesn't need to watch the Chinese Pirated Bootleg Star Wars in order to say "I like George Lucas' version better."

This isn't an equal competition between two different stories or two version of a story. This is the original Macross which is a totally seperate entity vs the American bootleg of which the best thing that can be said was that it was a good idea (bring anime to America) for its' time (pre-internet 80s) that went horribly wrong for reason that are not entirely Macek's fault.

Pete

[Einherjar]

My gosh, this is why Memo took the time to discuss anything here; digging for information. He's using what people just told him here to promote his own message. We just helped him.

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/3-robotech...p;start=10#8521

I can see your soapbox. And there's no way to respond to it there because he's locked anyone out from posting on it. I imagine this will go to rt.com eventually as well for all the newbies too.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Einherjar

[Freiflug88]

Clearly our friend Mr. Bendo is totally okay with it so long as he can call the girl an "alien", regardless of what she actually looks like.

So there is no child porn probelm with depicting the micronized or macrinized Klan Klan naked despite the fact she is what like only a year or two at most older then Ranka? Must be cause she is a Zentradi and 100% alien. On the other hand Ranka is only a quarter Zentradi and thus 3/4 Quarters human. HG was apparently smart and only went as far as showing Maia in a pink tank top because they knew she was "half-alien." Cause you know showing Mylene topless was probably child porn as well and she must be just as "half-alien" as Maia is since they both come from the same parents...sort of. Sounds to me like Doug Bendo is just his usual self as a Robotech Nazi with suggesting it all just boils down to the purity of the bloodline of fictional characters and all.

BTW just what kind of alien is Maia half of? They were never clear in the RTSC, surely she can't be part Zentradi like those Macross child pornstars like Ranka, Klan Klan, and Mylene?

Edited December 11, 2009 by Freiflug88

[azrael]

My gosh, this is why Memo took the time to discuss anything here; digging for information. He's using what people just told him here to promote his own message. We just helped him.

Nah, we didn't help him. He's just pushing out the same faux-news BS. Except this time, he's using procedural action papers as "evidence". He's just catering to his fanbase: the kids who don't follow links and read.

[veffidas]

Wasn't Lynn Minmay, and maybe all main characters of the original Macross series, for that matter, supposed to have been over 18?

Wanzerfan:

In Robotech -yes.

In Macross - no.

But if Doug gets out of Save's question by saying "she's 18 in Robotech! So that's not kiddie porn!" then that's really lame. It's lame because the footage is the same thing - her naked ass. And in Japan, she was also at the age of concent. So if you can say "In Robotech - that scene isn't kiddie porn because she's 18 but in Macross, the exact same picture IS kiddie porn because she's 15" then... that means, to quote Bill Paxton:

Pete

This is not true. You can use Robotech.com to verify this yourself. Lynn Minmei is aged 15 starting from the first episode of Robotech and turns sixteen the same episode Lynn Minmay does in Macross.

Robotech Infopedia - Lynn Minmei | Robotech Infopedia - Sweet Sixteen

Or, you can reference Save's post (which was posted before Wanzerfan's), which listed the correct age.

Now, I believe the original Robotech TV airing (and subsequently the first generation DVDs) had edited out the nudity from most, if not all, shower scenes (including those of Jeanne/Dana from SDC: Southern Cross/The Robotech Masters); however, when Harmony Gold commissioned the "remastered" audio and video for later DVD releases, they included more source footage from the original Japanese series that was not previously seen or included when Robotech originally aired, subsequently adding more nudity to Robotech.

You may find asking which animation (and audio) version of Robotech is canon a valid question.

[Robelwell202]

After viewing Macross, the flaws in Robotech's "Macross Saga" are evident, but it does not diminish my enjoyment of either series. Rather, I find that I have more of an appreciation for Carl Macek's efforts to expose American audiences to something that he thought was special. Is it seamless? Absolutely not! Was it handled well afterwards? Certainly not. Was it a hell of a lot of fun to watch as a kid? Yes. I still watch anime, and I enjoy it quite a bit. My tastes have changed over the years, however, and I tend to watch Robotech less and less. That doesn't mean that I won't get a kick out of watching it again someday (it is a fun series, if nothing else). For me, Robotech is like an old pair of sneakers - comfortable and snug. Sure, the tread is wearing a bit thin, but you KNOW those sneakers (and they look great with a pair of shorts). Macross, for me anyway, is like the new pair of shoes. They fit they way they are supposed to, you know? There's more tread and a little more bounce in my step. When it comes time to play on the turf or go for a run, these are my go-to shoes. Both pairs of shoes serve a purpose, though, and I'm not ready to replace either pair. Not yet.

Yep. Shoes... You have my apologies for a weak analogy, at best.

Damn, I couldn't said it better myself! That fits me to a tee!

While I look at the actual series called 'Robotech' with the same attitude as Rossi, it's the various factions of fandom that disturb and disgust me. It's just amazing to see the absolute venom and hostility that's thrown around, and the absolute blind assertions held be certain people (MEMO and Doug come to mind right away).

Personally, I've had it up to (the proverbial) here, to say the least.

This is, at beast, a legacy 80s cartoon series, and the people that own and manage that series are buffoons, at best. Anything that has come out after the original 85 has been met with mixed results, at best, and at worst has been a sstupendous failure.

No, my issues are not with the show, itself. They're with the screwed-up fans, and Harmony Gold.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Robelwell202

[terry the lone wolf]

BTW just what kind of alien is Maia half of? They were never clear in the RTSC, surely she can't be part Zentradi like those Macross child pornstars like Ranka, Klan Klan, and Mylene?

Yes, she's half Zentradi and the 2nd daughter & possibly 3rd child of Max & Miriya Sterling.

[Gubaba]

Yes, she's half Zentradi and the 2nd daughter & possibly 3rd child of Max & Miriya Sterling.

Did they ever ACTUALLY SAY that Maia was half-Zentradi? In the dialogue?

[Freiflug88]

You may find asking which animation (and audio) version of Robotech is canon a valid question.

A valid yet easy question to answer:

Q: What is the definitive source of events in the Robotech universe when discrepancies arise in continuity?

- Anonymous

A: The original television series is the primary source of story continuity for the Robotech universe. Subsequently published material (including The Sentinels) represents secondary continuity. All future works are based upon the core continuity presented in the original series, which can also be supplemented by material from secondary sources where it supports the storyline of the television episodes. Where conflicts arise, consistency with events of the television episodes takes priority.

Errors occasionally can (and do) occur under rapid production schedules, and some of these discrepancies can be found in even in the original television episodes - though these are usually minor. Such errors are corrected wherever possible in future published works with overall continuity with the television episodes remaining the final word.

These subjects are covered in more depth in the bibliography FAQs.

- Tommy Yune

BTW just what kind of alien is Maia half of? They were never clear in the RTSC, surely she can't be part Zentradi like those Macross child pornstars like Ranka, Klan Klan, and Mylene?

Yes, she's half Zentradi.

Nope. Maia is no half Zentradi , she's half Zentraedi!

Zentradi is for Macross, Zentraedi with the extra "e" is how its at in the Robotech canon.

Think of it this way:

Only players like Pete can hang with the Macross stars, but only the Robotech girls are Ezzay enough fo Doug Bendo.

[Gubaba]

Nope. Maia is no half Zentradi , she's half Zentraedi!

Zentradi is for Macross, Zentraedi with the extra "e" is how its at in the Robotech canon.

But again...does it say that specifically in the dialogue?

[Freiflug88]

But again...does it say that specifically in the dialogue?

Zentraedi

zen TRAH dee

A warrior race of giants created by the Robotech Masters

[Gubaba]

But where in Shadow Chronicles does is say that Maia is half-Zentraedi? Is it in the dialogue? That's what I'm asking.

[Seto Kaiba]

This is his legacy, with a hated for a lot of people and lashing out at specific people; Macross, Macross Purists, HG, Shadow Chronicles, Memo at one time and probably still, it's been a lot of people over the years.

I actually told him as much during one of my few guest appearances when he was trying to make something at least mildly respectable out of his podcast. His legacy is, and likely always will be, one of hatred and immature trolling.

Memo keeps ignoring Seto's argument - that there's no Court Order regarding the main issue, but just a denial of some technical motion. Memo acts like the fact that there was a settlement rather than explicit Court Order in favor of HG is the equivalent of an explicit Court Order.

The two keep talking past eachother.

Except that Seto actually ACKNOWLEDGES the words Memo writes.

Memo just pretends Seto never writes his conclusions.

Now you understand why I don't want anything to do with MEMO1DOMINION... this is, pretty much word for word, his standard MO. He doesn't actually want to debate the issue like a reasonable man, and he doesn't want to actually do the research necessary to understand the subject. He just wants to assert that his opinion is irrefutable fact. He's a habitual liar and he abuses his mod authority on other sites to get away with deliberately misleading people. What he's done with those Harmony Gold et. al. v. FASA et. al. on RobotechX is standard practice for him... assert that "it is this way" and then bury any possible dissent by any means necessary.

I'm not "talking past" MEMO... but I can't say I'm talking TO him either because there's no sign that he actually ever acknowledges or understands what I say, no matter how simple I make it. I, like everyone else, am just sort talking AT him in the same way that someone might talk AT a department store mannequin.

And all of these guys have ONE Modus Operandus:

They ALL have ONE POINT consisting of UP TO THREE LAME ARGUMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE POINT.

And they just repeat those lame arguments ad infinitum.

I hate to break it to you, but you've described at least 45-55% of the online Robotech fandom with this.

If this goes on any longer - I'm going to become a Robotech fan out of pity. Seriously. I'm going to open my own Robotech website and TRY to find SOMETHING redeemable in that show - just to PROVE that it can be done.

I wish you luck on this Sisyphean endeavor you have chosen to pursue.

This time, we have users like Seto, memo, and doug, who seem to be following one another around (Seto, seriously, we need to have a talk about the people that follow you home ).

No, it just LOOKS like we're following each other around... I've been coming here on a semi-regular basis for ages, but MEMO and Bendo are only starting to show their faces because RobotechX has turned into a ghost town, leaving MEMO lonely after days of talking to himself and Bendo with no outlet for his trollish tendencies or to shamelessly promote that waste of space he calls a podcast. I certainly wouldn't follow either of those twits around, the only encounters I've had with them have been someone inviting me to MEMO's site to offer my thoughts on a few debates, and Bendo himself wasting weeks trying to get me onto his show by alternating between polite requests and attempts to goad me into it.

I seem to attract the crazy ones, if only because as a well-informed, fair-spoken figure in the Robotech fandom I have a tendency to draw the ire of the crazy ones by casually demolishing their fantasy worlds with a few well-chosen sentences that aren't even directed at them specifically.

My gosh, this is why Memo took the time to discuss anything here; digging for information. He's using what people just told him here to promote his own message. We just helped him.

http://www.robotechx.com/forums/3-robotech...p;start=10#8521

I can see your soapbox. And there's no way to respond to it there because he's locked anyone out from posting on it. I imagine this will go to rt.com eventually as well for all the newbies too.

Now, let's all remember what I JUST SAID about why I don't like MEMO... because he uses his authority on Robotech.com and RobotechX to censor opinions, silence dissent, and deliberately mislead people. You now have a clear-cut example of him doing EXACTLY THAT. Now instead of saying what he does to hack me off at him, I can just point to that thread and say "THIS!". He has posted something that he knows is a lie as though it were the truth, locked the thread to prevent any kind of response refuting him, and directed all discussion of it to a hidden portion of his site so nobody will be able to see it. He is the worst kind of sleaze and people like him are the cancer that is killing Robotech.

I hope Pete is feeling appropriately embarrassed by this after having gone out on a limb to defend MEMO.

But where in Shadow Chronicles does is say that Maia is half-Zentraedi? Is it in the dialogue? That's what I'm asking.

It doesn't... they dodge the word "Zentradi" or "Zentraedi" or however you want to spell it. The Zentradi (and in fact, the Robotech Masters too) are not even mentioned in the movie. Maia refers to herself simply as "half-alien".

Edited December 12, 2009 by Seto Kaiba

[Freiflug88]

But where in Shadow Chronicles does is say that Maia is half-Zentraedi? Is it in the dialogue? That's what I'm asking.

Same place Robotech is going: Nowhere.

[Gubaba]

I hope Pete is feeling appropriately embarrassed by this after having gone out on a limb to defend MEMO.

No, I agree with Pete here. Memo should be allowed to have his say, and let people see for themselves that his arguments have no merit. Ditto Doug. If he wants to post, then by all means, let him post. Let everyone see what he says (if they can read it), and form conclusions from there. If he can't keep it civil, he'll get warned. If he STILL can't keep it civil, he'll get banned, and that'll be the end of it.

It doesn't change that fact that he said that YOU don't shut up...and yet HE came here, seeking YOU. Everybody sees that.

Same place Robotech is going: Nowhere.